[OP's story]

Sometimes - yes. It depends on the circumstances.

There are areas where many alpine climbs are going to involve a planned bivy, and the exact route is uncertain. In these cases, climbers often give an expected date/time plus a 12 to 24 hour later "overdue" time. Between those two times, someone with details about the outing may or may not head out to figure out what happened. SAR is called after the "overdue" time. But that's quite a bit different than these circumstances.

Bill L

You're right, but the wrong lesson is being emphasized here and throughout the thread. The most intelligent decision made during this whole debacle was the brother's decision to call 911 at 1 a.m., except that the call should have been made much earlier.

This time of year it is too dark to climb at Echo Cliffs past 4:30. Say the climber's pushed it to 5:00. The hike out should take no more than 60 minutes, so they should have been out by 6:00. If three unprepared, inexperienced hikers in the dark in the rain in nominal 40-degree-Fahrenheit temperatures aren't out by 9:00 p.m., they are almost certainly in trouble consisting of some combination of being lost, hypothermic, or injured. SAR should have been notified then.

In hindsight—according to the brother—the climbers could have made it through the night and found their way out the next morning. But that's hindsight. What if one of the climbers had a compound fracture or a skull fracture? Furthermore I suspect that the OP has been totally cowed by a bunch of macho pseudo-outdoor-tough-guys into exaggerating the climbers' survival skills. Being caught out in the rain and wind in 40-degree temperatures, possibly with no shelter and just cotton clothing, for more than a couple of hours, is life threatening. The call to 911 was clearly the correct decision, and it should have been done sooner.

Jay

No argument from me on this.

But there is a big gap between two sides here:

This thread started with a bunch of people, you included, heaping scorn on these stupid kids b/c the assumption was that THEY called for rescue when they got lost, cold and wet, and they got lost by being woefully unprepared and somehow missing an obvious trail.

But when it turns out that it was the brother that called, your argument becomes, the brother should have called even earlier than he did.

How can these two things be reconciled?

... but as I explain in my previous post (posted after yours), in the present situation, if the climbers were even three hours overdue it should have been assumed that they were in serious trouble and in need of rescue.

Hey, dude. Forget what everyone else is saying. They haven't been through what you and your friends experienced. I have. I can relate.

I was young. I awoke in a room, and it was COMPLETELY dark. Like, pitch black midnight dark. On top of that, I had apparently been placed in some kind of cage. I kinda whimpered and cried for a bit. Finally, however, I realized that if I cried loud enough someone was bound to come save me. So I did just that, and wouldn't you know it? In comes Mom to pick me up out of the cage and hold me.

Unfortunately, fatigue set in, and the next thing I knew I was waking up in the exact same cage. However, it was morning now and visibility had increased to near perfect conditions.

Well, the story goes on for a really long time, but you can see that I can understand that you've been to Hell and back--and I've been right there with you--even if all these jerks can't understand that.

No argument from me on this.

But there is a big gap between two sides here:

This thread started with a bunch of people, you included, heaping scorn on these stupid kids b/c the assumption was that THEY called for rescue when they got lost, cold and wet, and they got lost by being woefully unprepared and somehow missing an obvious trail.

But when it turns out that it was the brother that called, your argument becomes, the brother should have called even earlier than he did.

How can these two things be reconciled?

I'm not trying to pass judgment on this, I'm just saying for anyone else that this could happen too.

Having SAR fly out to find you is one thing, using them is another. It's easy to wave them off with one arm if they are not truly needed.

by the time you call SAR, you are dead so you need to make sure you call once you notice that situation is out of your hand. one thing climbers ignore is this

we'll be back before dark or we do not need this dude or just go light !!

once you enter the wilderness zone, you need to have basic supplies to keep you warm and alive. this includes, fire starter, rain or windproof jacket, first aid kit, some food and water and flashlight and extra battery and good knife.

This is not an option but a mandatory list that should be in your climbing pack every time.

god bless you all

SAR goofball

No argument from me on this.

But there is a big gap between two sides here:

This thread started with a bunch of people, you included, heaping scorn on these stupid kids b/c the assumption was that THEY called for rescue when they got lost, cold and wet, and they got lost by being woefully unprepared and somehow missing an obvious trail.

I think most people's scorn comes from them allowing themselves to be put in this situation (at a relatively easy to find sport crag, none the less), and not from the actual rescue. It is pretty asinine, in my opinion, to get into a position requiring rescue out of Echo. However, once in that situation, I think it was prudent for someone to initiate rescue.

Moose with all due respect I think this is ludicrous. Once a SAR team has been mobilized, the chopper pilot woken up, fuel in the bird, bird in the air, lost and probably hypothermic party located in what is basically a ravine choked with foliage and probably apt to flooding and debris flows... you're suggesting waving off the rescue rather than scrambling a few hundred yards and jumping in the bird? What does this possibly gain anyone exactly?

This business about waiting 24 hours to call for a search is macho nonsense. The one time I called for a rescue for a lost hiker in the mountains, I called as soon as it became clear that the hiker wasn't going to make it down by sunset. Delays in initiating rescues just increase the risk to the victim, and complicate the mission, since the victim is likely to be in worse condition and hence less able to assist in his evacuation, and since the search area often must be expanded with time.

Jay

I do solo kayak trips in northern Ontario too. Typically I don't see anyone in the course of a week. I take a sat phone and check in at a prescribed time each day. BUT, I told my wife long ago, if you don't hear from me for a day or 2 don't panic, and don't call out the calvary. After 72 hours, make a call. This saved a false and very expensive call. On one trip, my rented sat phone went dead after 2 days and only 2 calls. It had been on a grand total of maybe 15 minutes. Turns out the battery was bad, and I got a full refund (didn't rent from them again needless to say). I was 3 days out and knew if I pushed I could get back in 2. My wife didn't panic, and I called her 2 nights later and explained the situation. If she had subscribed to the 24 hour rule a CG chopper from Sault Ste. Marie would have made an over 300 mile round trip flight for absolutely no reason. Every circumstance is different, but I reason that if I break a leg or arm, I can survive 3 days. If my injury is so bad that it's life threatening there's no way they'll get to me in time anyways.

Each situation and person's skills are different, but for me this is the answer. I use the same rule for backcountry hiking. And I leave each phone on for at least an hour now and make sure the battery is good before heading out

My bro just got a GPS today and we have the general coordinates of where the SAR picked them up. Based on that info, we are going in.

chill out on the OP.


a few years ago my girlfriend and i were at echo up by the bowling pin when it got dark. it really turned into an epic...


...an epic of sweet, sweet luvin'

majid, this may be the best thing you've ever written

I do solo kayak trips in northern Ontario too. Typically I don't see anyone in the course of a week. I take a sat phone and check in at a prescribed time each day. BUT, I told my wife long ago, if you don't hear from me for a day or 2 don't panic, and don't call out the calvary. After 72 hours, make a call. This saved a false and very expensive call. On one trip, my rented sat phone went dead after 2 days and only 2 calls. It had been on a grand total of maybe 15 minutes. Turns out the battery was bad, and I got a full refund (didn't rent from them again needless to say). I was 3 days out and knew if I pushed I could get back in 2. My wife didn't panic, and I called her 2 nights later and explained the situation. If she had subscribed to the 24 hour rule a CG chopper from Sault Ste. Marie would have made an over 300 mile round trip flight for absolutely no reason. Every circumstance is different, but I reason that if I break a leg or arm, I can survive 3 days. If my injury is so bad that it's life threatening there's no way they'll get to me in time anyways.

Each situation and person's skills are different, but for me this is the answer. I use the same rule for backcountry hiking. And I leave each phone on for at least an hour now and make sure the battery is good before heading out

Moose with all due respect I think this is ludicrous. Once a SAR team has been mobilized, the chopper pilot woken up, fuel in the bird, bird in the air, lost and probably hypothermic party located in what is basically a ravine choked with foliage and probably apt to flooding and debris flows... you're suggesting waving off the rescue rather than scrambling a few hundred yards and jumping in the bird? What does this possibly gain anyone exactly?

Its one thing to not call a rescue for yourself unless its critical, quite another to refuse one out of some sort of pride or ego or whatnot.

That lying Whore. I was up at Echo late night with your girlfriend last month; she told me it was her first time.

After just looking back through some of this thread, I see some clown is still following Jay around and 1 starring him.

Grow up!!!!

You're right, but the wrong lesson is being emphasized here and throughout the thread. The most intelligent decision made during this whole debacle was the brother's decision to call 911 at 1 a.m., except that the call should have been made much earlier.

This time of year it is too dark to climb at Echo Cliffs past 4:30. Say the climber's pushed it to 5:00. The hike out should take no more than 60 minutes, so they should have been out by 6:00. If three unprepared, inexperienced hikers in the dark in the rain in nominal 40-degree-Fahrenheit temperatures aren't out by 9:00 p.m., they are almost certainly in trouble consisting of some combination of being lost, hypothermic, or injured. SAR should have been notified then.

I disagree. I have seen/heard/involved in countless of benightenments where climbers came out well after dark. 99% of times it is just benign difficulties and the climbers stumble out after dark and head off for a beer.