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bigo
Dec 30, 2010, 7:02 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ?
Do you apply this same standard to all fixed gear? If you fall on a pin and it pulls resulting in injury, are the locals who knew the pin's condition liable?
Everyone is responsible for checking the integrity of what they clip - fixed or not.
Tim and Ian are nice guys and that fellow is lucky they are the ones that caught him.
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redlude97
Dec 30, 2010, 7:25 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ?
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edge
Dec 30, 2010, 7:31 PM
Post #28 of 285
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Majid, when you are in the Valley, do you routinely remove the fixed lines from El Cap? Say, for example, the ones at the base of the Nose or Salathe?
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dbogardus
Dec 30, 2010, 7:33 PM
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better yet, run it out above suspect gear...
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bill413
Dec 30, 2010, 7:41 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ?
It's your responsibility to know what you're clipping. If a biner is so worn that it breaks under a fall, you should have seen that when clipping. (Of course, it could break if cross-loaded...).
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redlude97
Dec 30, 2010, 8:09 PM
Post #32 of 285
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There is already a precedence for gear on anchors, no one blames the bolter if an anchor chain or bolt fails, so why would a QD breaking be any different. Majid your logic is flawed on this in so many ways.
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moose_droppings
Dec 30, 2010, 10:18 PM
Post #33 of 285
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redlude97 wrote: There is already a precedence for gear on anchors, no one blames the bolter if an anchor chain or bolt fails, so why would a QD breaking be any different. Majid your logic is flawed on this in so many ways.
Legal reference please.
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redlude97
Dec 31, 2010, 12:09 AM
Post #34 of 285
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moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: There is already a precedence for gear on anchors, no one blames the bolter if an anchor chain or bolt fails, so why would a QD breaking be any different. Majid your logic is flawed on this in so many ways. Legal reference please.
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majid_sabet
Dec 31, 2010, 12:13 AM
Post #35 of 285
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redlude97 wrote: There is already a precedence for gear on anchors, no one blames the bolter if an anchor chain or bolt fails, so why would a QD breaking be any different. Majid your logic is flawed on this in so many ways.
QDs are rated to 15 KN with soft material hanging all day and all night exposed to cold and hot conditions with people taking falls on them on regular bases. bolt and hanger are rated to 25+ KN in one set condition and last five time longer than any QDs.
Does 2+2 adds up 4.5 ?
Why can't sport climber clean up after their climb ?
tell me, what is the logic behind leaving your sh*t hanging on the wall when you could easily clip and move on ?
Does two second time to clip in slows them down or uses a lot of their energy ?
bunch of pus*ies with skinny harness and skinny 6.9mm rope who can't even carry six QDs on their harnesses.
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majid_sabet
Dec 31, 2010, 12:16 AM
Post #37 of 285
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bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ? It's your responsibility to know what you're clipping. If a biner is so worn that it breaks under a fall, you should have seen that when clipping. (Of course, it could break if cross-loaded...).
Bill
How many climbers examine every QDs while they are climbing ?
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camhead
Dec 31, 2010, 12:18 AM
Post #38 of 285
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majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. So by that logic if you park your car (or yak, in your case), illegally, I can take it? read the congress wilderness act (1960s) .
Oh Jesus fucking Christ, I'm sure someone has replied to this, but the Wilderness Act (1964, to be exact), only applies to.... (wait for it)....
WILDERNESS AREAS!
Please tell me which major sport climbing destination in the US lies within a wilderness area.
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bearbreeder
Dec 31, 2010, 1:21 AM
Post #39 of 285
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majid_sabet wrote: [ QDs are rated to 15 KN with soft material hanging all day and all night exposed to cold and hot conditions with people taking falls on them on regular bases. bolt and hanger are rated to 25+ KN in one set condition and last five time longer than any QDs. Does 2+2 adds up 4.5 ? Why can't sport climber clean up after their climb ? tell me, what is the logic behind leaving your sh*t hanging on the wall when you could easily clip and move on ? Does two second time to clip in slows them down or uses a lot of their energy ? bunch of pus*ies with skinny harness and skinny 6.9mm rope who can't even carry six QDs on their harnesses.
says the flamer who can't lead 5.8 yet 
im sure youve got no problems clipping al yr draws on-sighting 5.4s mista majid ... unfortunately its not that easy on climbs that are a tad harder ...
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Gmburns2000
Dec 31, 2010, 1:24 AM
Post #40 of 285
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christ, you guys are all arguing about whether it is OK to leave draws and I've got a serious problem here: do I pop the second 40 or leave it for the roommates? If I pop the 40 and don't leave it for them they may steal my amaretto and that shit's expensive down here, but they may also not care, and this here, my friends, is the real crux.
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tripperjm
Dec 31, 2010, 1:40 AM
Post #41 of 285
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Registered: Jun 7, 2002
Posts: 10650
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majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ?
Well I don't noes about teh local climbers... but ewe can OG BET that there wood be a jiant party hear on teh knob, with people poynting and laughing with red and green arrows. But sadly, that will never happen, cuz ewe don't climb.
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sungam
Dec 31, 2010, 2:00 AM
Post #42 of 285
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Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
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Gmburns2000 wrote: christ, you guys are all arguing about whether it is OK to leave draws and I've got a serious problem here: do I pop the second 40 or leave it for the roommates? If I pop the 40 and don't leave it for them they may steal my amaretto and that shit's expensive down here, but they may also not care, and this here, my friends, is the real crux.
P.S. vid dood is a doosh. I also double took when the camera man spoke, it sounded just like cory for a second. I guess them oregonians all have cory accents or somin like that.
Dudebrohamski is definitely shaving his beard and dying his hair after this shitspread.
But I am in need of some cheap draws so... *checks portland craigslist*
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Gmburns2000
Dec 31, 2010, 2:05 AM
Post #43 of 285
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sungam wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: christ, you guys are all arguing about whether it is OK to leave draws and I've got a serious problem here: do I pop the second 40 or leave it for the roommates? If I pop the 40 and don't leave it for them they may steal my amaretto and that shit's expensive down here, but they may also not care, and this here, my friends, is the real crux. What? Drink the 40 and deal with it later.
hmmm...well played...
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sungam
Dec 31, 2010, 2:15 AM
Post #44 of 285
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Gmburns2000 wrote: sungam wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: christ, you guys are all arguing about whether it is OK to leave draws and I've got a serious problem here: do I pop the second 40 or leave it for the roommates? If I pop the 40 and don't leave it for them they may steal my amaretto and that shit's expensive down here, but they may also not care, and this here, my friends, is the real crux. What? Drink the 40 and deal with it later. hmmm...well played...
P.S. I laughed out loud when he was like "those are my draws" - aw damn boi! you dun GOOFED. (as some would say)
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adam14113
Dec 31, 2010, 2:32 AM
Post #45 of 285
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majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ? It's your responsibility to know what you're clipping. If a biner is so worn that it breaks under a fall, you should have seen that when clipping. (Of course, it could break if cross-loaded...). Bill How many climbers examine every QDs while they are climbing ?
it's pretty obvious you are trying to dig yourself out with ridiculous hypotheticals, if someone has the skill enough to climb a route with permanent quick draws on it they would sure as hell have the experience to know to check the QDs
(This post was edited by adam14113 on Dec 31, 2010, 2:34 AM)
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bill413
Dec 31, 2010, 2:44 AM
Post #46 of 285
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adam14113 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. While the thief claimed they were "unsafe" and "badly worn" - they were not. The people who were working that route knew the draws and their history. The thief claimed that (apparently) all the draws on the route were unsafe, but the anchor biners were fine. There was a little discussion there where the owners pointed out that carabiners were normally shaped like the ones that were being stolen. Maybe he mistook bent gates for damage? ok, well let's say I ended up in the area and somehow I climbed and took a fall where I broke one of those biners.Do local climbers who know the history will take the responsibility if got hurt ? It's your responsibility to know what you're clipping. If a biner is so worn that it breaks under a fall, you should have seen that when clipping. (Of course, it could break if cross-loaded...). Bill How many climbers examine every QDs while they are climbing ? it's pretty obvious you are trying to dig yourself out with ridiculous hypotheticals, if someone has the skill enough to climb a route with permanent quick draws on it they would sure as hell have the experience to know to check the QDs
I think he's starting to argue that the climber shouldn't check their systems.
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moose_droppings
Dec 31, 2010, 3:20 AM
Post #47 of 285
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redlude97 wrote: moose_droppings wrote: redlude97 wrote: There is already a precedence for gear on anchors, no one blames the bolter if an anchor chain or bolt fails, so why would a QD breaking be any different. Majid your logic is flawed on this in so many ways. Legal reference please. You'd have to prove negligence in the first place. I don't think this has ever been brought up in court. Here is one such discussion about the legal ramifications http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25; which you posted in. I dont think the concerns have changed but I don't think there have been any successfull lawsuits either
There is plenty of opinions and concerns in that other thread, but no precedence set as to where the liability will fall.
To my knowledge, there is no precedence on this matter. I would like to read of any if there is though.
I also believe it's not as simple as an anchor or a quickdraw failure, I'm sure there would many other factors and circumstances to consider that would have to be taken into account and each incident would have it's own threshold to either side of the argument.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Dec 31, 2010, 3:22 AM)
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gosharks
Dec 31, 2010, 5:57 AM
Post #48 of 285
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camhead wrote: majid_sabet wrote: sp115 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: bill413 wrote: adam14113 wrote: I wouldn't have been as nice as those guys I was amazed at how civil they were to him. And, at the thief's unconcern about theft. taking a draw is not against law. in fact it is against the law to leave pieces on the wall and I do not understand why lazy sport climbers have to leave their unsafe draws on every wall.loose some of those fat pounds out of your love handles and carry six freaking draws on your harness and clip and clean it after you are done.And those draws are unsafe cause you do not know how many people have taken a fall on them and one of these days, one will break and kills a climber. So by that logic if you park your car (or yak, in your case), illegally, I can take it? read the congress wilderness act (1960s) . Oh Jesus fucking Christ, I'm sure someone has replied to this, but the Wilderness Act (1964, to be exact), only applies to.... (wait for it).... WILDERNESS AREAS! Please tell me which major sport climbing destination in the US lies within a wilderness area.
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redlude97
Dec 31, 2010, 6:16 AM
Post #49 of 285
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Precedence wasn't the right word. When I said that what I meant was that there had been many bolt failures in the past. There are manly bolts at many crags throughout the us and no one has been sued yet. I think this mostly has to do with the fact that almost everyone associates climbing with inherent danger and that any fixed protection is use at ur own risk
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majid_sabet
Dec 31, 2010, 6:21 AM
Post #50 of 285
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bearbreeder wrote: majid_sabet wrote: [ QDs are rated to 15 KN with soft material hanging all day and all night exposed to cold and hot conditions with people taking falls on them on regular bases. bolt and hanger are rated to 25+ KN in one set condition and last five time longer than any QDs. Does 2+2 adds up 4.5 ? Why can't sport climber clean up after their climb ? tell me, what is the logic behind leaving your sh*t hanging on the wall when you could easily clip and move on ? Does two second time to clip in slows them down or uses a lot of their energy ? bunch of pus*ies with skinny harness and skinny 6.9mm rope who can't even carry six QDs on their harnesses. says the flamer who can't lead 5.8 yet im sure youve got no problems clipping al yr draws on-sighting 5.4s mista majid ... unfortunately its not that easy on climbs that are a tad harder ...
you been going after me for some times now and I am not sure if you what happens to those who point their keyboard on me.
Have you seen Angry lately ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 31, 2010, 6:21 AM)
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