It should be obvious that either a redirect off the anchor or a guide block device direct from the anchor are vastly superior to a direct from harness belay in the vast majority of scenarios.

I'm going to guess he was BUS user. I agree with the others in that he was probably used to pulling the rope downward to brake. The BUS method instills the muscle memory of driving the rope downwards between your legs to brake which is useless when belaying off the harness from above

I'm a palm up pinch and slide user (ZOMG my climber's gonna die!!!11exclamationone1121240!) and my reaction is always to lock my hand next to my hip. This will apply braking power whether belaying from below or belaying off my harness from above.

EDIT: BUS method explained
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-a0FLqwPL8

A person standing or sitting on a rim won't be pulled off by a falling climber?

Agreed healyj.


(Though most of us I presume know that. And debate is just periphery.)

"You are doing it wrong."

That is you attacking me, as too many here generally find amusement and gratification in doing, and offering zero helpful information.

One reply said flatly that he never used an anchor, implying to me that he just stands or sits above a climber. That makes no sense to me in terms of safety for the circumstance, making the total of responses more confusing to me, as stated.

I do believe that a cam device would have been the saving grace in this case and in general, that is why they were developed and how they became so popular; and D. did belay A. with one at the start. Yes, the handle or cam on a GriGri or Cinch can be held in the open position and drop a climber, but that is not a trained response so far as I know or suspect.

No one has mentioned my suggestion of a carabiner auto-block: none of you use that or recommend that for top-belay?

The climber D. thought that an ATC used directly could not hold a fall: you are all agreed that is not true, it had to be only belayer error in using it?

It was D.'s idea that a redirect would reduce brake force needed, and my notion of pulley advantage is a crude attempt to figure out why he would think so. Do you all (except the fellow talking about doubling the force on the anchor) agree there is only friction involved in any arrangement of any belay system, so the system is only personal preferrence with no best way to do a top-belay?

.

"You are doing it wrong."

That is you attacking me, as too many here generally find amusement and gratification in doing, and offering zero helpful information.

You certainly can.
-Belay biner through harness with ATC. Hence belaying off harness, no redirect.
-Anchor attached to belay biner without slack. Hence anchor takes load.

It should be obvious that either a redirect off the anchor or a guide block device direct from the anchor are vastly superior to a direct from harness belay in the vast majority of scenarios.

If the belayer had been using a gri gri and a re-direct this accident would prolly not have happened.

Without an anchor, yes, you will get pulled off.

This is a pointlessly convoluted version of a direct belay off the anchor.

Convaluted? Hardly. It is quite simple Jay. Surely you can understand the advantages of belaying off your harness. In fact you have argued these advantages previous. Having and ATC attached to the anchor makes taking in slack while being locked off difficult.

This seem yet another method that you simply have no idea about and are completely close minded to. Seriously Jay open you mind a little.

Well, I was going to compliment you...until I read your last paragraph.

Jay

I'm glad you didn't. I would have fallen out of my chair!

One reply said flatly that he never used an anchor, implying to me that he just stands or sits above a climber. That makes no sense to me in terms of safety for the circumstance, making the total of responses more confusing to me, as stated.

I do believe that a cam device would have been the saving grace in this case and in general, that is why they were developed and how they became so popular; and D. did belay A. with one at the start. Yes, the handle or cam on a GriGri or Cinch can be held in the open position and drop a climber, but that is not a trained response so far as I know or suspect.

No one has mentioned my suggestion of a carabiner auto-block: none of you use that or recommend that for top-belay?

The climber D. thought that an ATC used directly could not hold a fall: you are all agreed that is not true, it had to be only belayer error in using it?

It was D.'s idea that a redirect would reduce brake force needed, and my notion of pulley advantage is a crude attempt to figure out why he would think so. Do you all (except the fellow talking about doubling the force on the anchor) agree there is only friction involved in any arrangement of any belay system, so the system is only personal preferrence with no best way to do a top-belay?

But again, this doesn't have anything to do with different devices or techniques, this was strictly a matter of not having the requisite experience and skill at the specific choices D and A made as they contemplated executing the lower.

Convaluted? Hardly. It is quite simple Jay. Surely you can understand the advantages of belaying off your harness. In fact you have argued these advantages previous. Having and ATC attached to the anchor makes taking in slack while being locked off difficult.

Anchor setup - irrelevant

Off the harness or redirect - irrelevant

Hand method with the belay device - irrelevant

Type of ATC - irrelevant

ATC or Grigri - irrelevant

The only thing that is relevant is that the belayer wasn't up to the task at hand with the device he was using. He had inadequate knowledge and experience for belaying in that situation and circumstance they found themselves in and both were unprepared for the decisions they needed to make at that moment. The both climbers needed more time seconding a competent leaders and more time belaying before venturing into multipitch on their own.

Given an adequate anchor, all the rest of the banter in this thread is personal preference with little to no bearing the incident.

Superior in what way? There is no difference in safety. As I have previously discussed, a direct belay off the anchor, except with a munter hitch, results in a terrible belay for the second (see the previous thread on this; I don't want to get into again), and lowering would be all but impossible. The redirect is superior to the belay off the harness for lowering only because it is vastly more comfortable for the lowerer, who doesn't have to suffer with 170 pounds of dead weight hanging off his kidneys while lowering.

Jay

I'm aware of your often stated dislike of plaquette belays when seconding, and while I disagree, certainly see your point. But your contention that lowering would be all but impossible with one is just plain silly. I can flip a loaded plaquette and transition to a lower in about a minute, and a hell of a lot faster than that if the climber is able to unweight the device his/herself. If one can't do so, one has no business using them in the first place.

Free Tip for survival of your seconds: NEVER release an autoblock without a munter in behind for the belay... (Don't believe me: try it out somewhere safe...)