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majid_sabet


Feb 13, 2011, 10:51 PM
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Rappelling error
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Anyone from San Diego knows what happened here?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/...feet-down-waterfall/


cmagee1


Feb 13, 2011, 11:58 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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400 feet? That sounds gnarly. RIP


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2011, 4:51 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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DAMN!

RIPFrown


newrivermike


Feb 14, 2011, 5:46 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Total speculation but my guess: He was rappelling with a prussic backup. It got wet, locked up on the rope, 30 degree water started to numb his fingers and he couldn't release it, the colder he got the more worthless his fingers became, and he just sat there with wooden hands, helpless, until he died from exposure.

Just a guess, but something was keeping him stuck in one place. Sad story.


swaghole


Feb 14, 2011, 8:22 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 8:30 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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newrivermike wrote:
Total speculation but my guess: He was rappelling with a prussic backup. It got wet, locked up on the rope, 30 degree water started to numb his fingers and he couldn't release it, the colder he got the more worthless his fingers became, and he just sat there with wooden hands, helpless, until he died from exposure.

Just a guess, but something was keeping him stuck in one place. Sad story.

Well, if we're going to speculate, I'll play:

a.) He was about 200' down a 400' waterfall. Perhaps he ran out of rope.

b.) He had tied two 60 meters ropes together, and couldn't pass the knot.

*************

The more I read these stories, the more I think the emergency response (i.e. the events that follow calling 911) in California, with the exception of YOSAR, will bungle anything but the simplest rescue scenario.

Not that rappelling a 400 foot waterfall with freezing water in February was the smartest thing to attempt...

Rest in peace and condolences to his family. Sucks.


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 8:40 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.


newrivermike


Feb 14, 2011, 8:43 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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It seems that no one really knows how tall the falls are! In the comments section of the news article that Majid posted someone wrote in that the falls were actually 100 feet, not 400. I googled around and found differing heights for Mildred falls, anywhere from 90 feet to '10 stories' to 500 feet! This is one quote:

"The falls themselves are roughly 90 feet high, with a steep-shouldered bowl at the bottom that's 50 feet across and 20 feet or so deep."

Leave it to the newspaper to exaggerate I guess. Like you said, it's all speculation. Especially when the newspaper can't even get the facts straight on how high the falls are.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 8:53 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.

A little more info...
http://canyonbeta.com/...anyon-mildred-falls/


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 9:30 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.

A little more info...
http://canyonbeta.com/...anyon-mildred-falls/

based on the link you give

In reply to:
The Canyon Descent:
A single bolt anchor will give you an 100′ rappel point down to an exposed ledge where you can find another bolted anchor point. The second rappel will be about 250′ mostly free hanging. From there continue down canyon along class III & IV terrain until the canyon begins to turn to the right. At that point you can begin looking for a way to to climb out canyon left back to the road.

its highly possible that he could not locate the second bolt and with cold running water, you got a disaster. I personally been on situations where we couldn't locate the rap bolt and we ended up either jugging up or leaving gear to bail out.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 14, 2011, 9:30 AM)


Partner rrrADAM


Feb 14, 2011, 9:34 AM
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That sux. Unsure
http://www.mountainproject.com/...on=personalpage&


1904climber


Feb 14, 2011, 10:56 AM
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all i know about this is what has been reported in the news, but being in san diego i might hear stuff after the news stops covering this.
i'll try to keep this thread updated with any info as i hear it.


ClimbSoHigh


Feb 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
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RIP...


csproul


Feb 14, 2011, 1:50 PM
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whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 2:14 PM
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Re: [csproul] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?

I can't help it if some people like to use their power to push others to the corner.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 2:51 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
csproul wrote:
whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?

I can't help it if some people like to use their power to push others to the corner.


Yeah that's why. Apparently the mods decided that posting about a sport rapelling accident isn't "worthy" of A&I....which I kinda don't understand but w/e it's their ball they just let us play with it.

Sad deal, this accident.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 3:42 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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http://www.canyoneering.net/...howthread.php?t=4448

Gee, discussion on an appropriate website with folks who have actually BEEN to this location, DO this activity and KNOW wtf they are talking about.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Feb 14, 2011, 3:45 PM)


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 4:06 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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on the recent rappelling incident, your comments (jackatc) cause the post to be locked in addition to me been banned for a week from I&A. I do not understand why you (jackatc) continuously think that rappelling accidents are not rock climbing related nor they are worth to mention, analyzed or been discussed among climbers here. This is particular accident, a climber lost his life. this was not some back-country weekend warrior but a climber.

please feel free to add your comments to lock this post as well.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 4:56 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
on the recent rappelling incident, your comments (jackatc) cause the post to be locked in addition to me been banned for a week from I&A. I do not understand why you (jackatc) continuously think that rappelling accidents are not rock climbing related nor they are worth to mention, analyzed or been discussed among climbers here. This is particular accident, a climber lost his life. this was not some back-country weekend warrior but a climber.

please feel free to add your comments to lock this post as well.

sport rappelling and canyoneering are not Rock Climbing. This is Rockclimbing.com. The mods agree with me on that hence your vacation.

You can go analyze that canyoneering accident on the canyoneering website. As you can see there are a lot more people on there with local knowledge and experience with that activity.

A climber could crash their car into a tree and die and it would be tragic but it would not be worthy of analysis on a climbing website.

If the accident is in process of climbing at a climbing area then you go right ahead and post your google search. But first or second hand reports are a lot more useful to talk about then newspaper articles that have the facts all screwed up. For this reason I find your copy and pasting to be useless and tiring. Also, you treat these PEOPLE as statistics and show very little respect for the PEOPLE involved.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 5:51 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.


(This post was edited by Vegasclimber10 on Feb 14, 2011, 5:54 PM)


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2011, 6:14 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

+1

Well said. We all rap at some point. Learning from other areas where techniques and safety equipment often overlap is good for us. It's not always a perfect relationship, but learning enough of periphery activities can be helpful.

As for Majid's newspaper chasing, I don't think it's a bad thing. Not every climber reads this site, and if it wasn't for him then there'd be a lot of accidents that probably wouldn't make it here. Yes, he isn't providing the info in a very sympathetic manner, but I have serious doubts that he doesn't care.

This has been gone over a lot. I think it's a shame that the mods don't see the value in similar activities, but they don't (well, specific ones anyway). Some of us like to have fun here, but some of those same people also like to learn things, too. A guy rapping a waterfall can still teach us something, even if he wasn't climbing.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 6:25 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 7:05 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.

Apparently he was also a climber, which to me is relevant. If nothing else, he was part of the vague notion of "the climbing community". Also, as climbers I think most of us often make assumptions when we read about accidents in spelunking or canyoneering; that mistakes were made which a "climber" would not have made. Sometimes this is simply a strange form of hubris or an attempt to convince ourselves we're removed from the possibility of a similar fate.

Additionally, the cause of death, mechanic asphyxia, and harness hang syndrome are mentioned in the related article: http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...ies-of-suffocation#c This is an entirely different conclusion than death by exposure, and suggests a different timeline.

Questions loom in my mind why the rescue was not more expedient. Why the efforts to reach the climber, and not simply short haul the rope up and out away from the cliff? Why send a chopper with such limited capabilities only to send the Huey later?

Big wall climbers have certainly been caught in storms with massive quantities of water channeling down routes. Climbers have certainly had trouble finding rappel anchors in a wide variety of circumstances.

So, for me at least, I don't think its unreasonable to discuss what happened and what can be learned from it.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 7:21 PM
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dugl33 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.

Apparently he was also a climber, which to me is relevant. If nothing else, he was part of the vague notion of "the climbing community". Also, as climbers I think most of us often make assumptions when we read about accidents in spelunking or canyoneering; that mistakes were made which a "climber" would not have made. Sometimes this is simply a strange form of hubris or an attempt to convince ourselves we're removed from the possibility of a similar fate.

Additionally, the cause of death, mechanic asphyxia, and harness hang syndrome are mentioned in the related article: http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...ies-of-suffocation#c This is an entirely different conclusion than death by exposure, and suggests a different timeline.

Questions loom in my mind why the rescue was not more expedient. Why the efforts to reach the climber, and not simply short haul the rope up and out away from the cliff? Why send a chopper with such limited capabilities only to send the Huey later?

Big wall climbers have certainly been caught in storms with massive quantities of water channeling down routes. Climbers have certainly had trouble finding rappel anchors in a wide variety of circumstances.

So, for me at least, I don't think its unreasonable to discuss what happened and what can be learned from it.

Perhaps if it was brought up by a local it would be a different story. However when Majid copy and pastes articles from search engines "climbing" "accident" it becomes monotonous. He just throws any and all accidents out there weather or not people think it will be relevant, instructive or whatever.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 7:38 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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I agree that I sometimes feel that he posts a bit too much about the same topics.

I agree to a point that the language he posts in is sometimes incorrect, but I take into account that English isn't his native language.

At the same time, I don't feel that I have the right to judge what is "relevant" or not, and quite frankly the only people that DO have that right are the moderators of this site. Any of the rest of us - post counts notwithstanding - have to either abide by moderator decision or leave the site.

What is "relevant" is completely up to the person reading it. If it isn't "relevant" to you in your life or experience, then choose not to read or respond to the post.. We all have that option, and let's be honest it's far easier then choosing to be antagonistic towards a post or person. If you choose to respond neagtively based only on the person posting, then you may eventually miss something that IS important.

How many thousands of repeated situation posts have you seen on here over the years? It's frankly beyond count.

Again and again you have stated that your issue with this post isn't the accident - which I personally do find relevant - but that it was the "non local" Majid that posted it.

Do you even know where Majid truly lives, or what he does for a living? Do a little research. You may be surprised.


(This post was edited by Vegasclimber10 on Feb 14, 2011, 7:41 PM)


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 7:48 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I agree that I sometimes feel that he posts a bit too much about the same topics.

I agree to a point that the language he posts in is sometimes incorrect, but I take into account that English isn't his native language.

At the same time, I don't feel that I have the right to judge what is "relevant" or not, and quite frankly the only people that DO have that right are the moderators of this site. Any of the rest of us - post counts notwithstanding - have to either abide by moderator decision or leave the site.

What is "relevant" is completely up to the person reading it or not. If it isn't "relevant" to you in your life or experience, then choose not to read or respond to the post.. We all have that option, and let's be honest it's far easier then chooing to be antagonistic towards a post or person. If you choose to respnd neagtively based only on the person posting, then you may eventually miss something that IS important.

How many thousands of repeated situation posts have you seen on here over the years? It's frankly beyond count.

Again and again you have stated that your issue with this post isn't the accident - which I personally do find relevant - but that it was the "non local" Majid that posted it.

Do you even know where Majid truly lives, or what he does for a living? Do a little research. You may be surprised.

He does very very little commenting on the articles he posts himself. It is 99% link with the first paragraph copy and pasted then he lets everyone else figure out what it all means.

He's claimed that he was in YOSAR and also teaches rescue stuff abroad. He has not posted any of his own personal accident experiences here. He has never impressed me with his knowledge and tends to be inconsistent with what he says he knows and what asks questions about.

He has insulted very good friends of mine after an accident occurred in their group with zero knowledge of the people involved or situation or the area. And beyond all his other bullshit he will never have an ounce of respect from me.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 7:54 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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jake, if he insulted you and your friends then I totally get that, really.

All I can say to his claims is that to the best of my ability, all of them are true and then some. I think the main issue is more the language barrier in most cases then anything else frankly. Not ALL cases, just many.

And I've seen him continue to discuss many of his threads.

All I am saying is, that I understand you have a personal issue with him, and apparently it's well founded. I understand that you have no respect for him.

But hell man, what's the sense in repeatedly attacking his posts? He isn't going to change and he isn't going to stop posting.

Use all that energy and post up more positive things that we can learn from, from YOUR wealth of knowledge, and conteract your dislike of him and his posts that way, it will help everyone a lot more.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 8:11 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
jake, if he insulted you and your friends then I totally get that, really.

All I can say to his claims is that to the best of my ability, all of them are true and then some. I think the main issue is more the language barrier in most cases then anything else frankly. Not ALL cases, just many.

And I've seen him continue to discuss many of his threads.

All I am saying is, that I understand you have a personal issue with him, and apparently it's well founded. I understand that you have no respect for him.

But hell man, what's the sense in repeatedly attacking his posts? He isn't going to change and he isn't going to stop posting.

Use all that energy and post up more positive things that we can learn from, from YOUR wealth of knowledge, and conteract your dislike of him and his posts that way, it will help everyone a lot more.

I've been here longer than him and a hell of a lot longer than you. I/A used to be a lot better. It used to involve the people involved and a real conversation about the accident, the route, area etc.

Were you around for Shelly's accident? People from this site went to the route and recreated the situation to determine what happened. How about Ambers.. or Kate. Hell even people put away some baggage when PTPP hurt himself after he got banned.

I find his posting style worthless and don't think he should determine how the A/I is by carpet bombing it with links all day long. People are involved in these accidents and treating them like numbers is rude. we've had parents, spouses, and siblings come on here and post in threads.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 8:23 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Yes, judging a person by their join date and number of posts, TOTALLY should be a basis on judging who they are.

As a matter of fact, not only was I active on here when Amber fell in Zion, I was on here before that.

I left RC for a long time because I had better things to do with my life then post all day, and because I disliked the high number of rude and combative people that seemed to have no true intentions other then to disrupt posts with personal agendas.

Now I am stuck at a job with nothing to do several days a week, and I wanted to see if anything had changed. Being as I couldn't recover my old account, I made a new one. Sorry if this is an inconveinence to you.

Now, this has gone on long enough, and I am tired of swinging e-peens with you. How about we show the NATURE of this thread - as well as the PERSON - Matthew Pack - who died and by the accounts I have read was a really well liked guy - the RESPECT youre complaining about and go back on topic.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 8:26 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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sounds good. you asked, i answered. personally i think if people want to see a good discussion about this they should click my link from earlier since they had a lot of good stuff there.


Lbrombach


Feb 15, 2011, 5:12 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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I just wanna throw in that A. rapping accidents and equipment are relevant to me as a climber B. this is the only site I visit because I'm not interested in rapping as a sport or hobby, only as a means to get home after climbing. C. Most of the crap posted on this entire site is monotonous, lame, and irrelevant IMO but the simple solution is to not read it. Some people are entertained/informed by it so they can have...I just have to move on - not whine about it. If the OP doesn't provide enough info I can easily google it, but I never would if I didn't know the incident occurred.


I don't know why you take it so personally...the dud isn't your wife - you're allowed to tune him out.


Gmburns2000


Feb 15, 2011, 5:40 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
dugl33 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.

Apparently he was also a climber, which to me is relevant. If nothing else, he was part of the vague notion of "the climbing community". Also, as climbers I think most of us often make assumptions when we read about accidents in spelunking or canyoneering; that mistakes were made which a "climber" would not have made. Sometimes this is simply a strange form of hubris or an attempt to convince ourselves we're removed from the possibility of a similar fate.

Additionally, the cause of death, mechanic asphyxia, and harness hang syndrome are mentioned in the related article: http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...ies-of-suffocation#c This is an entirely different conclusion than death by exposure, and suggests a different timeline.

Questions loom in my mind why the rescue was not more expedient. Why the efforts to reach the climber, and not simply short haul the rope up and out away from the cliff? Why send a chopper with such limited capabilities only to send the Huey later?

Big wall climbers have certainly been caught in storms with massive quantities of water channeling down routes. Climbers have certainly had trouble finding rappel anchors in a wide variety of circumstances.

So, for me at least, I don't think its unreasonable to discuss what happened and what can be learned from it.

Perhaps if it was brought up by a local it would be a different story. However when Majid copy and pastes articles from search engines "climbing" "accident" it becomes monotonous. He just throws any and all accidents out there weather or not people think it will be relevant, instructive or whatever.


So when you said it had nothing to do with climbing, you really meant that you didn't like how Majid posted it. Come on, seriously?


Gmburns2000


Feb 15, 2011, 5:50 AM
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Re: [Lbrombach] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Lbrombach wrote:
I just wanna throw in that A. rapping accidents and equipment are relevant to me as a climber B. this is the only site I visit because I'm not interested in rapping as a sport or hobby, only as a means to get home after climbing. C. Most of the crap posted on this entire site is monotonous, lame, and irrelevant IMO but the simple solution is to not read it. Some people are entertained/informed by it so they can have...I just have to move on - not whine about it. If the OP doesn't provide enough info I can easily google it, but I never would if I didn't know the incident occurred.


I don't know why you take it so personally...the dud isn't your wife - you're allowed to tune him out.


+1 again. If he hadn't been the person who posted it, then who would have? And yes, a non-climbing rapping accident is relevant to climbers.


socalclimber


Feb 15, 2011, 6:52 AM
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I don't think there is anything wrong with posting these types of accidents at all. Granted this may have been a cayoneering accident. The truth is, there are number of similarities of this incident with other climbing related disasters.

All's it takes is a big heavy rain, a long steep multi pitch face, and two climbers can find themselves in a waterfall in a hurry looking for anchors they might not be able to find.


erisspirit


Feb 15, 2011, 10:14 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Lbrombach wrote:
I just wanna throw in that A. rapping accidents and equipment are relevant to me as a climber B. this is the only site I visit because I'm not interested in rapping as a sport or hobby, only as a means to get home after climbing. C. Most of the crap posted on this entire site is monotonous, lame, and irrelevant IMO but the simple solution is to not read it. Some people are entertained/informed by it so they can have...I just have to move on - not whine about it. If the OP doesn't provide enough info I can easily google it, but I never would if I didn't know the incident occurred.


I don't know why you take it so personally...the dud isn't your wife - you're allowed to tune him out.


+1 again. If he hadn't been the person who posted it, then who would have? And yes, a non-climbing rapping accident is relevant to climbers.

I found it relevant. It is possible a climber rapping off a climb could get into a similar situation, and things could be learned from what happened. How did he get stuck in the first place for example...

sometimes climbers end up doing long raps, and learning from this accident might help them avoid a similar situation.


chadnsc


Feb 17, 2011, 12:10 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
on the recent rappelling incident, your comments (jackatc) cause the post to be locked in addition to me been banned for a week from I&A. I do not understand why you (jackatc) continuously think that rappelling accidents are not rock climbing related nor they are worth to mention, analyzed or been discussed among climbers here. This is particular accident, a climber lost his life. this was not some back-country weekend warrior but a climber.

please feel free to add your comments to lock this post as well.


No midget, that's not what happened. You're lying, yet again.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...5;page=unread#unread


mojomonkey


Feb 17, 2011, 3:15 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
I've been here longer than him and a hell of a lot longer than you.

Whoops!

jakedatc = Registered: Mar 12, 2003, 1:48 PM
majid_sabet = Registered: Dec 12, 2002, 9:11 PM

And it turns out you may not have Vegasclimber10 beat either...

jakedatc wrote:
I find his posting style worthless and don't think he should determine how the A/I is by carpet bombing it with links all day long.

Bit of hyperbole there... If you don't like his threads, don't post in them. If you must, start a thread in suggestions & feedback to discuss it, or PM management if you think something is really out of line. I'd rather not see you fill up and derail what might turn into useful threads with complaints. You have been doing it for over 2 years now... If they aren't useful or interesting, they'll die out.

Did he make fun of the climbing at Rumney?


jakedatc


Feb 17, 2011, 4:03 PM
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mojomonkey wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
I've been here longer than him and a hell of a lot longer than you.

Whoops!

jakedatc = Registered: Mar 12, 2003, 1:48 PM
majid_sabet = Registered: Dec 12, 2002, 9:11 PM

And it turns out you may not have Vegasclimber10 beat either...

jakedatc wrote:
I find his posting style worthless and don't think he should determine how the A/I is by carpet bombing it with links all day long.

Bit of hyperbole there... If you don't like his threads, don't post in them. If you must, start a thread in suggestions & feedback to discuss it, or PM management if you think something is really out of line. I'd rather not see you fill up and derail what might turn into useful threads with complaints. You have been doing it for over 2 years now... If they aren't useful or interesting, they'll die out.

Did he make fun of the climbing at Rumney?


mehh.. should have said been posting regularly.

he can post errr.. copy/paste from google.com whatever he wants within the guidelines of I/A forum, i'll post whatever I want in response.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 17, 2011, 11:06 PM
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Re: [1904climber] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Hey guys, I understand everyone's point, but let's get back on topic.

I'd like to know if anyone has personally rapped in a high water situation, and what obstacles you encountered. Even if you weren't "climbing" per se.

I'd also like to hear more about the harness suffocation theory, if anyone has something to add on that point which was brought up earlier.


jakedatc


Feb 18, 2011, 6:32 AM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
Hey guys, I understand everyone's point, but let's get back on topic.

I'd like to know if anyone has personally rapped in a high water situation, and what obstacles you encountered. Even if you weren't "climbing" per se.

I'd also like to hear more about the harness suffocation theory, if anyone has something to add on that point which was brought up earlier.

autopsy posted on the canyoneering site stating it was harness hang syndrome
http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...-dies-of-suffocation


Vegasclimber10


Feb 18, 2011, 3:54 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
Hey guys, I understand everyone's point, but let's get back on topic.

I'd like to know if anyone has personally rapped in a high water situation, and what obstacles you encountered. Even if you weren't "climbing" per se.

I'd also like to hear more about the harness suffocation theory, if anyone has something to add on that point which was brought up earlier.

autopsy posted on the canyoneering site stating it was harness hang syndrome
http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...-dies-of-suffocation


Let me make this clearer for you Jake. You aren't reading the emphasis of my post correctly. So let me BOLD the pertinent sections for you. I am asking for ADDITIONAL information. That means, personal experiences that have not yet been covered by any of these posts.

To be perfectly clear, I don't care about the canyoneering site, nor do I care that the person was canyoneering at the time. This was a climber that happened to be canyoneering when they lost their life.

This incident was posted here and here is where I am discussing it.


trenchdigger


Feb 18, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Just to clarify, "Harness Hang Syndrome" is a term for orthostatic shock. Mechanical asphyxiation is different. The former is a circulatory issue, and the latter respiratory in nature. I don't now if/how the coroner can tell the difference, but the true nature of the trauma could help shed light on the cause of the accident. In the end though, a report from the SAR teams who carried out the recovery regarding what they found is really the missing piece of determining what really happened. Until that is available, I'd encourage everyone to limit their speculation.

Condolences to Matt's freiends family members, and thank you to SAR members involved in the recovery effort. May he rest in peace.

Adam


Vegasclimber10


Feb 18, 2011, 4:43 PM
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Thanks trench, for contributing some new information.


Rudmin


Feb 19, 2011, 6:39 AM
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From someone with no SAR experience it seems kind of like a botched rescue. Two helicopters sent and each decides they can't rescue him and then nobody comes back until the next morning. It doesn't sound like he was in the deep wilderness if there were other hikers around and cell phone service. Is this typical SAR procedure?


majid_sabet


Feb 19, 2011, 7:37 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
From someone with no SAR experience it seems kind of like a botched rescue. Two helicopters sent and each decides they can't rescue him and then nobody comes back until the next morning. It doesn't sound like he was in the deep wilderness if there were other hikers around and cell phone service. Is this typical SAR procedure?

Generally,when a call goes thru 911 system, it needs to be filtered and narrowed down to proper emergency departments and depends on who the watch officer is or how much he knows SAR, this could delay SAR to critical point.

Most watch officers in the urban settings are not aware of how SAR operates unless they are either fully involved with SAR or have worked with SAR so by the time they figure out what is going on, it may takes hours, even days. On this incident, a helicopter was send but because it did not have winch, they could not lower anyone. not just that, if they were able to to drop a couple of hardcore SAR personal, may be they were able to rap down to climber to assess his situation but they delayed till next day. Have a climber, under a cold running water for 12 hours hanging in his harness, well, if he does not die of HHS, he would had died of severe hypothermia.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 19, 2011, 7:38 AM)


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