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majid_sabet


Feb 13, 2011, 10:51 PM
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Rappelling error
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Anyone from San Diego knows what happened here?

http://www.signonsandiego.com/...feet-down-waterfall/


cmagee1


Feb 13, 2011, 11:58 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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400 feet? That sounds gnarly. RIP


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2011, 4:51 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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DAMN!

RIPFrown


newrivermike


Feb 14, 2011, 5:46 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Total speculation but my guess: He was rappelling with a prussic backup. It got wet, locked up on the rope, 30 degree water started to numb his fingers and he couldn't release it, the colder he got the more worthless his fingers became, and he just sat there with wooden hands, helpless, until he died from exposure.

Just a guess, but something was keeping him stuck in one place. Sad story.


swaghole


Feb 14, 2011, 8:22 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 8:30 AM
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Re: [newrivermike] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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newrivermike wrote:
Total speculation but my guess: He was rappelling with a prussic backup. It got wet, locked up on the rope, 30 degree water started to numb his fingers and he couldn't release it, the colder he got the more worthless his fingers became, and he just sat there with wooden hands, helpless, until he died from exposure.

Just a guess, but something was keeping him stuck in one place. Sad story.

Well, if we're going to speculate, I'll play:

a.) He was about 200' down a 400' waterfall. Perhaps he ran out of rope.

b.) He had tied two 60 meters ropes together, and couldn't pass the knot.

*************

The more I read these stories, the more I think the emergency response (i.e. the events that follow calling 911) in California, with the exception of YOSAR, will bungle anything but the simplest rescue scenario.

Not that rappelling a 400 foot waterfall with freezing water in February was the smartest thing to attempt...

Rest in peace and condolences to his family. Sucks.


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 8:40 AM
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Re: [swaghole] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.


newrivermike


Feb 14, 2011, 8:43 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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It seems that no one really knows how tall the falls are! In the comments section of the news article that Majid posted someone wrote in that the falls were actually 100 feet, not 400. I googled around and found differing heights for Mildred falls, anywhere from 90 feet to '10 stories' to 500 feet! This is one quote:

"The falls themselves are roughly 90 feet high, with a steep-shouldered bowl at the bottom that's 50 feet across and 20 feet or so deep."

Leave it to the newspaper to exaggerate I guess. Like you said, it's all speculation. Especially when the newspaper can't even get the facts straight on how high the falls are.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 8:53 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.

A little more info...
http://canyonbeta.com/...anyon-mildred-falls/


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 9:30 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
swaghole wrote:
Sad. It 400' waterfall and he was found dangling 200' down the fall. Sounds like he reached the end of the rope.

its possible that something happened to the second rap anchor which wasn't there to complete the additional 200 feet rap to the ground causing climber to be stuck in mid section.

A little more info...
http://canyonbeta.com/...anyon-mildred-falls/

based on the link you give

In reply to:
The Canyon Descent:
A single bolt anchor will give you an 100′ rappel point down to an exposed ledge where you can find another bolted anchor point. The second rappel will be about 250′ mostly free hanging. From there continue down canyon along class III & IV terrain until the canyon begins to turn to the right. At that point you can begin looking for a way to to climb out canyon left back to the road.

its highly possible that he could not locate the second bolt and with cold running water, you got a disaster. I personally been on situations where we couldn't locate the rap bolt and we ended up either jugging up or leaving gear to bail out.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 14, 2011, 9:30 AM)


Partner rrrADAM


Feb 14, 2011, 9:34 AM
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That sux. Unsure
http://www.mountainproject.com/...on=personalpage&


1904climber


Feb 14, 2011, 10:56 AM
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all i know about this is what has been reported in the news, but being in san diego i might hear stuff after the news stops covering this.
i'll try to keep this thread updated with any info as i hear it.


ClimbSoHigh


Feb 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
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RIP...


csproul


Feb 14, 2011, 1:50 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 2:14 PM
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Re: [csproul] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?

I can't help it if some people like to use their power to push others to the corner.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 2:51 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
csproul wrote:
whatever the cause, that is a real shame.

Is this in General because you were banned from A&I?

I can't help it if some people like to use their power to push others to the corner.


Yeah that's why. Apparently the mods decided that posting about a sport rapelling accident isn't "worthy" of A&I....which I kinda don't understand but w/e it's their ball they just let us play with it.

Sad deal, this accident.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 3:42 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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http://www.canyoneering.net/...howthread.php?t=4448

Gee, discussion on an appropriate website with folks who have actually BEEN to this location, DO this activity and KNOW wtf they are talking about.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Feb 14, 2011, 3:45 PM)


majid_sabet


Feb 14, 2011, 4:06 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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on the recent rappelling incident, your comments (jackatc) cause the post to be locked in addition to me been banned for a week from I&A. I do not understand why you (jackatc) continuously think that rappelling accidents are not rock climbing related nor they are worth to mention, analyzed or been discussed among climbers here. This is particular accident, a climber lost his life. this was not some back-country weekend warrior but a climber.

please feel free to add your comments to lock this post as well.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 4:56 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
on the recent rappelling incident, your comments (jackatc) cause the post to be locked in addition to me been banned for a week from I&A. I do not understand why you (jackatc) continuously think that rappelling accidents are not rock climbing related nor they are worth to mention, analyzed or been discussed among climbers here. This is particular accident, a climber lost his life. this was not some back-country weekend warrior but a climber.

please feel free to add your comments to lock this post as well.

sport rappelling and canyoneering are not Rock Climbing. This is Rockclimbing.com. The mods agree with me on that hence your vacation.

You can go analyze that canyoneering accident on the canyoneering website. As you can see there are a lot more people on there with local knowledge and experience with that activity.

A climber could crash their car into a tree and die and it would be tragic but it would not be worthy of analysis on a climbing website.

If the accident is in process of climbing at a climbing area then you go right ahead and post your google search. But first or second hand reports are a lot more useful to talk about then newspaper articles that have the facts all screwed up. For this reason I find your copy and pasting to be useless and tiring. Also, you treat these PEOPLE as statistics and show very little respect for the PEOPLE involved.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 5:51 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.


(This post was edited by Vegasclimber10 on Feb 14, 2011, 5:54 PM)


Gmburns2000


Feb 14, 2011, 6:14 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

+1

Well said. We all rap at some point. Learning from other areas where techniques and safety equipment often overlap is good for us. It's not always a perfect relationship, but learning enough of periphery activities can be helpful.

As for Majid's newspaper chasing, I don't think it's a bad thing. Not every climber reads this site, and if it wasn't for him then there'd be a lot of accidents that probably wouldn't make it here. Yes, he isn't providing the info in a very sympathetic manner, but I have serious doubts that he doesn't care.

This has been gone over a lot. I think it's a shame that the mods don't see the value in similar activities, but they don't (well, specific ones anyway). Some of us like to have fun here, but some of those same people also like to learn things, too. A guy rapping a waterfall can still teach us something, even if he wasn't climbing.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 6:25 PM
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Re: [Vegasclimber10] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.


dugl33


Feb 14, 2011, 7:05 PM
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jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.

Apparently he was also a climber, which to me is relevant. If nothing else, he was part of the vague notion of "the climbing community". Also, as climbers I think most of us often make assumptions when we read about accidents in spelunking or canyoneering; that mistakes were made which a "climber" would not have made. Sometimes this is simply a strange form of hubris or an attempt to convince ourselves we're removed from the possibility of a similar fate.

Additionally, the cause of death, mechanic asphyxia, and harness hang syndrome are mentioned in the related article: http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...ies-of-suffocation#c This is an entirely different conclusion than death by exposure, and suggests a different timeline.

Questions loom in my mind why the rescue was not more expedient. Why the efforts to reach the climber, and not simply short haul the rope up and out away from the cliff? Why send a chopper with such limited capabilities only to send the Huey later?

Big wall climbers have certainly been caught in storms with massive quantities of water channeling down routes. Climbers have certainly had trouble finding rappel anchors in a wide variety of circumstances.

So, for me at least, I don't think its unreasonable to discuss what happened and what can be learned from it.


jakedatc


Feb 14, 2011, 7:21 PM
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dugl33 wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
Vegasclimber10 wrote:
I know you're going to start slamming all over me as well about this but w/e. Enjoy.

First off, many rapelling accidents - including sport rapelling - have been discussed on this site.

My personal opinion - not that it matters to you - is that if you are using advanced techniques and equipment such as anchor systems, ropes, and rapelling, then we should be able to discuss it in A&I.

Taking this attitude of what does and doesn't constitute a "valid" post further would be like saying that bouldering shouldn't be here because they don't use gear. We should discuss all types of accidents that occur on the rock, because even if the activity itself does not involve climbing, the equpiment used and the situation that occurs can easily be accomplished while we are climbing.

As far as Majid treating people like statistics goes, anyone who knows long term SAR people would realize that many rescue personnell use this technique to avoid becoming too attached to the situation. It's a block to avoid the harsh realities and grisly situations they have to deal with constantly. Other people tell jokes during body recoveries.

While it does disrespect the "human element" it does tend to cut out the emotional shit so that the actual cause of the accident and prevention can be discussed without emotional bias.

I have to say that having read many of your posts and especially in rgards to Majid's posts, I am kind of unsure how much of your disagreement is soley based on your dislike of Majid, rather then the issue at hand.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge and make very solid points in most of your posts, and your opinions seem to be respected by a lot of the RCers and mods. But in this case, I think that this is more of a personal issue.

Edited to add some points.

Discussing activities and areas that have little to do with rock climbing on a rock climbing site is not productive. Especially when it is just a copy and paste from google.com. The cycling site i'm on doesn't have articles on motorcycle accidents because they both have 2 wheels and wear helmets.

It may be an emotional block for him but family and friends of victims come on this site and read what is written. Pretty sure SAR guys don't joke around when those folks are present. Again, if Majid actually posted about a recent accident that he's responded to then perhaps he's have a slight case but newspaper clippings do not.

I do not like majid's copy and pasting, only posts poorly written articles with limited information, or his responses to people who actually post up their own accidents.

If it was up to me then A/I would have posts from people involved or were at least in the area at the time (ie i heard sirens while i was at ___ crag) This way the information would be credible, written BY climbers in terms climbers use correctly and that could be followed up on.

Apparently he was also a climber, which to me is relevant. If nothing else, he was part of the vague notion of "the climbing community". Also, as climbers I think most of us often make assumptions when we read about accidents in spelunking or canyoneering; that mistakes were made which a "climber" would not have made. Sometimes this is simply a strange form of hubris or an attempt to convince ourselves we're removed from the possibility of a similar fate.

Additionally, the cause of death, mechanic asphyxia, and harness hang syndrome are mentioned in the related article: http://sanjuancapistrano.patch.com/...ies-of-suffocation#c This is an entirely different conclusion than death by exposure, and suggests a different timeline.

Questions loom in my mind why the rescue was not more expedient. Why the efforts to reach the climber, and not simply short haul the rope up and out away from the cliff? Why send a chopper with such limited capabilities only to send the Huey later?

Big wall climbers have certainly been caught in storms with massive quantities of water channeling down routes. Climbers have certainly had trouble finding rappel anchors in a wide variety of circumstances.

So, for me at least, I don't think its unreasonable to discuss what happened and what can be learned from it.

Perhaps if it was brought up by a local it would be a different story. However when Majid copy and pastes articles from search engines "climbing" "accident" it becomes monotonous. He just throws any and all accidents out there weather or not people think it will be relevant, instructive or whatever.


Vegasclimber10


Feb 14, 2011, 7:38 PM
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Posts: 188

Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling error [In reply to]
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I agree that I sometimes feel that he posts a bit too much about the same topics.

I agree to a point that the language he posts in is sometimes incorrect, but I take into account that English isn't his native language.

At the same time, I don't feel that I have the right to judge what is "relevant" or not, and quite frankly the only people that DO have that right are the moderators of this site. Any of the rest of us - post counts notwithstanding - have to either abide by moderator decision or leave the site.

What is "relevant" is completely up to the person reading it. If it isn't "relevant" to you in your life or experience, then choose not to read or respond to the post.. We all have that option, and let's be honest it's far easier then choosing to be antagonistic towards a post or person. If you choose to respond neagtively based only on the person posting, then you may eventually miss something that IS important.

How many thousands of repeated situation posts have you seen on here over the years? It's frankly beyond count.

Again and again you have stated that your issue with this post isn't the accident - which I personally do find relevant - but that it was the "non local" Majid that posted it.

Do you even know where Majid truly lives, or what he does for a living? Do a little research. You may be surprised.


(This post was edited by Vegasclimber10 on Feb 14, 2011, 7:41 PM)

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