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Is aid really dangerous?
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milesenoell


Feb 28, 2011, 3:16 PM
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I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?


camhead


Feb 28, 2011, 3:21 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs


majid_sabet


Feb 28, 2011, 5:17 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?

aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer


milesenoell


Feb 28, 2011, 5:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?

aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer

Huh?


billcoe_


Feb 28, 2011, 5:38 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer


You're suppose to put a happy face at the end of that kind of spew, that way we all recognize that you were joking, and not just a mentally challenged individual.


milesenoell


Feb 28, 2011, 5:55 PM
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I'm still laughing at that video. That video was just the kind of thing I was looking for. A seasoned climber's honest opinion is often more desirable (to me at least) than a heap of statistics.

It sounds to me about like I suspected: aid climbing gives you a wealth of opportunities to psyche yourself up, but that the risks remain within a familiar zone.


socalclimber


Feb 28, 2011, 5:59 PM
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Aid climbing can be very dangerous, just like free climbing. It all depends on your skill level and what you're attempting.


milesenoell


Feb 28, 2011, 6:06 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
Aid climbing can be very dangerous, just like free climbing. It all depends on your skill level and what you're attempting.

I would hope that goes without saying.


socalclimber


Feb 28, 2011, 6:16 PM
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You'd be surprised...


majid_sabet


Feb 28, 2011, 7:58 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer


You're suppose to put a happy face at the end of that kind of spew, that way we all recognize that you were joking, and not just a mentally challenged individual.

As I said, they will pull pros till they reach their point of start (normally at belayer's level) but I never read or heard some one died while aid climbing.


bearbreeder


Feb 28, 2011, 8:29 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:

As I said, they will pull pros till they reach their point of start (normally at belayer's level) but I never read or heard some one died while aid climbing.

hey ya mista mahh jeed .... y duntcha list da aid routes you have done ...

im shuuure an upstanding 5.7 climber like ya has done sum krazy hard aid ... at least A3 ....


caughtinside


Feb 28, 2011, 8:33 PM
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It's death up there miles... death.


dreday3000


Feb 28, 2011, 8:38 PM
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dangerously boring


majid_sabet


Feb 28, 2011, 8:42 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

As I said, they will pull pros till they reach their point of start (normally at belayer's level) but I never read or heard some one died while aid climbing.

hey ya mista mahh jeed .... y duntcha list da aid routes you have done ...

im shuuure an upstanding 5.7 climber like ya has done sum krazy hard aid ... at least A3 ....

why are you following this wabbitt like yosemite sam with a gun ?


bearbreeder


Feb 28, 2011, 8:46 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:

why are you following this wabbitt like yosemite sam with a gun ?

oh my ... guns now? ... what next ... lol

just wondering about the aid climbs youve done since you said

"aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer "

you wouldnt say such a thing without aid climbing would u now ... nahhhhh Wink


majid_sabet


Feb 28, 2011, 9:05 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

why are you following this wabbitt like yosemite sam with a gun ?

oh my ... guns now? ... what next ... lol

just wondering about the aid climbs youve done since you said

"aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer "

you wouldnt say such a thing without aid climbing would u now ... nahhhhh Wink

me ? probebly none but then you would not believe it either

do you?


Guran


Mar 1, 2011, 5:28 AM
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milesenoell wrote:
I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?

Well... Statistics might be misleading.

Here's the ting.
For sport climbing, the harder the route the safer the climber since harder generally equals steeper and less featured rock which equals less risk of slamming into something when you fall.

For trad climbing it depends. Some venture into the poorly protected routes in micronuts and taped hook territory. Others prefer to go for steep cracks where the pro is still good even if the route is hard.

But for aid (as well as ice and alpine), "harder" always equals "more dangerous". Without taking risks you'll never get above the weekend warrior level. If you are content with that, and stay focused, aid is not inherently dangerous. If you have ambitions, realize you will be betting your life.


camhead


Mar 1, 2011, 6:19 AM
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Guran wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?

Well... Statistics might be misleading.

Here's the ting.
For sport climbing, the harder the route the safer the climber since harder generally equals steeper and less featured rock which equals less risk of slamming into something when you fall.

For trad climbing it depends. Some venture into the poorly protected routes in micronuts and taped hook territory. Others prefer to go for steep cracks where the pro is still good even if the route is hard.

But for aid (as well as ice and alpine), "harder" always equals "more dangerous". Without taking risks you'll never get above the weekend warrior level. If you are content with that, and stay focused, aid is not inherently dangerous. If you have ambitions, realize you will be betting your life.

Ok, then– as the video I posted originally asks, I will ask you the same question:

How many hard aid climbers have died from doing hard aid? I'm not talking about rappel accidents, objective hazards like rockfall or weather, or anything like that. I mean, how many hard aid climbers have died when their hook placement, or bubblegum copperhead, or rp string blew out, and they cratered?

If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?


Guran


Mar 1, 2011, 7:07 AM
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camhead wrote:
Ok, then– as the video I posted originally asks, I will ask you the same question:

How many hard aid climbers have died from doing hard aid? I'm not talking about rappel accidents, objective hazards like rockfall or weather, or anything like that. I mean, how many hard aid climbers have died when their hook placement, or bubblegum copperhead, or rp string blew out, and they cratered?

If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

As I said, statistics are misleading here.
Off the top of my head I can't think of a single "proper" aid fatality, though I'm sure there has been some. That does not in any way mean that hard aid is not sick dangerous. Hard aid is all about cutting your safety margins thin. (After all, you could have brought out the drill and placed a bolt, but chosed not to.)
That does not equal certain death-by-gravity, but it does mean not only "don't fuck up" but also "don't have bad luck".

So dangerous in the same sense as carrying a bottle of nitroglycerin in your pocket. Don't trip and don't fuck around with it and you'll be fine. Nobody would argue, however, that it's not dangerous.


bearbreeder


Mar 1, 2011, 7:54 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:

me ? probebly none but then you would not believe it either

do you?

im not the one claiming

"aid climbers are overall good climbers but when they fall, they pull pros left and right till they meet belayer "

mista mahhh jeeed Wink


skiclimb


Mar 1, 2011, 8:41 AM
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Is aid really dangerous.

nah it's always safe. Aid climbing unlike real climbing never has rockfall (nice bonus we don't ever wear helmets). Aid climbing guarantees good weather and eliminate all objective hazards. In Aid climbng the rope can never get cut the gear can never break. All placements are always bomber ...that is why we can use hooks for pro. Operator error is impossible in aid climbing.

Aid climbing automatically makes you a genius incapable of distraction or misjudgement.

Aid climbing makes it impossible to get hurt if you fall. just ask Dean Potter. Thats why most aid climbers don't even own a rope and if we do it's a static.

Aid climbing makes you invulnerable. This is why our chalkbag contains a lighter and a pack of non-filter cigarettes for leading.


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Mar 1, 2011, 8:48 AM)


fresh


Mar 1, 2011, 9:01 AM
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camhead wrote:
If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?
I don't think it follows that just because there are few fatalities or injuries, it shouldn't be considered dangerous. the low number of fatalities could be because climbers take extra care in dangerous situations.

I can't really put my finger on it, but there's something about the amount of attention or skill required to stay safe in a given situation that has a lot to do with how dangerous it is, to me. how many accidents happen on R rated routes? does that mean R rated routes aren't dangerous?

anyway it's possible that aid climbing really isn't that dangerous, I dunno. but to say that just because there aren't more fatalities it's not dangerous, is mullarky to me.

(btw I love that rant, can't see it at work, but I'm pretty sure I know the one.)


summerprophet


Mar 1, 2011, 11:30 AM
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camhead wrote:
If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

Hard aid is about putting you in a position of danger, whether it is dangerous or not is completly subjective to the individual.

Let me explain:
hard aid is classified both on the potential length of fall, and the difficulty or the placements.

Compared to free soloing, the fall distance would alway be to the ground..... but if the climb is 5.2, where every hold is burying your entire arm solidly into a perfect crack, the chances of falling are fairly minimal.

If the climb is a 5.11 tips crack, again, the fall is all the way to the ground, AND DEPENDING ON THE CLIMBER, this could be an incredibly secure route, with minimal fall hazard...... or impossible to get off the ground.

Aid climbing is similar to this. A5 climbing involves numerous precarious pieces for dozens or hundreds of feet, however without it is hard to get very far into this terrain without being proficiant at the skills to begin with.

Compare it to running a marathon, you don't just get off the couch one day, and run a marathon.... or if you do, you quickly realize that you aren't prepared and you pull over.

Hard aid is the art of Micro-Engineering, in essence, you have a bunch of stuff, and you have to deduce a way to get something to stick long enough for you to move upward to figure out something else.

Yes, Taped hooks in microedges happen, and if you shift your weight at all, they will blow, BUT how the hell do you think you ended up standing on it if you didn't have those skills allready.

In my Opinion, turning 16 and buying a sportbike is INFINITLY more dangerous than working your way up to hard aid.


coastal_climber


Mar 2, 2011, 8:37 PM
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Its as dangerous as you want to make it.


healyje


Mar 2, 2011, 11:44 PM
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No form of climbing done by competent climbers is as dangerous as the casino-like overall demographic of gym/sport climbers equipped with grigris. It's surviving the latter and climbing long enough to join the ranks of the former that's the challenge. After that there are lots of ways to hurt yourself, but at least it will be honest pilot error in most of those cases (ok, so that's little comfort...).


jt512


Mar 3, 2011, 12:13 AM
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Guran wrote:
Well... Statistics might be misleading.

What?! No way!

Jay


jt512


Mar 3, 2011, 12:17 AM
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camhead wrote:
Guran wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
I've been wondering, does anybody know how aid compares to free climbing in terms of A&I rates?

Aid feels scarier than free to me, but frankly I have no idea if it really is any more dangerous. Anybody know?

Well... Statistics might be misleading.

Here's the ting.
For sport climbing, the harder the route the safer the climber since harder generally equals steeper and less featured rock which equals less risk of slamming into something when you fall.

For trad climbing it depends. Some venture into the poorly protected routes in micronuts and taped hook territory. Others prefer to go for steep cracks where the pro is still good even if the route is hard.

But for aid (as well as ice and alpine), "harder" always equals "more dangerous". Without taking risks you'll never get above the weekend warrior level. If you are content with that, and stay focused, aid is not inherently dangerous. If you have ambitions, realize you will be betting your life.

Ok, then– as the video I posted originally asks, I will ask you the same question:

How many hard aid climbers have died from doing hard aid? I'm not talking about rappel accidents, objective hazards like rockfall or weather, or anything like that. I mean, how many hard aid climbers have died when their hook placement, or bubblegum copperhead, or rp string blew out, and they cratered?

If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

Wrong.

Jay


healyje


Mar 3, 2011, 3:19 AM
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camhead wrote:
If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

Flying is more dangerous than driving, so aviation should have more fatalities than automobiles, right?


stagg54


Mar 3, 2011, 4:00 AM
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as soon as I saw the title, that was the first thing I thought of.


skiclimb


Mar 3, 2011, 7:40 AM
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healyje wrote:
camhead wrote:
If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

Flying is more dangerous than driving, so aviation should have more fatalities than automobiles, right?

By nature flying has more inherent risks than driving. (the exception being the number of others in the immediate vicinity.) Flying is safer because because the risk causes people to use much higher levels of precautions. Better engines,much more training, regular inspections, checklists, air traffic control..on and on.

This is why statistic can lie. Often riskier activities cause less fatalities due to the fact that those who engage in high risks take even higher precautions. Risk also tends to focus the mind making it much less likely to be distracted or make a mistake.


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Mar 3, 2011, 7:44 AM)


Gmburns2000


Mar 3, 2011, 7:53 AM
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healyje wrote:
camhead wrote:
If hard aid is really more dangerous, there should be more fatalities, right?

Flying is more dangerous than driving, so aviation should have more fatalities than automobiles, right?

Flying is only more dangerous if you're no longer flying (i.e. - you're falling).

I think many people believe that safe means the third definition only (see below), but really the first two definitions are just as important.

Obviously, the usage of the word safe is highly subjective and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Dictionary.com: Safe

–adjective
1.
secure from liability to harm, injury, danger, or risk: a safe place.
2.
free from hurt, injury, danger, or risk: to arrive safe and sound.
3.
involving little or no risk of mishap, error, etc.: a safe estimate.
4.
dependable or trustworthy: a safe guide.
5.
careful to avoid danger or controversy: a safe player; a safe play.
6.
denied the chance to do harm; in secure custody: a criminal safe in jail.
7.
Baseball .
a.
reaching base without being put out: safe on the throw to first base.
b.
making it possible to reach a base: a safe slide.


dynosore


Mar 3, 2011, 8:51 AM
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How many people are really out there doing hard, life risking aid climbing? The few that are certainly know what they're doing.

Flying small planes is undoubtedly more dangerous than driving. I don't have the stats in front of me, but I know two pilots who have been killed. Practically everyone I know drives, and no one remotely close to me has ever been killed in a car accident. Yeah yeah I'm a single data point but I feel pretty confident saying this. First time I flew, I thought this isn't so hard. Then I tried my first landing.....you'd better be good at multitasking and be a quick thinker if you want to live to be an old pilot. Problems cascade very rapidly.


(This post was edited by dynosore on Mar 3, 2011, 8:51 AM)


ianmeister89


Mar 3, 2011, 5:07 PM
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dynosore wrote:

Flying small planes is undoubtedly more dangerous than driving.

I don't buy that.

-Ian


highlander


Mar 3, 2011, 5:40 PM
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Funny how most of you can have an opinion on hard aid, and how dangerous it is when you have never done it. Go climb some new wave A4-A5 and report back. There have been several deaths from ropes being cut (jugging), head trama, and broken limbs from big falls hitting ledges, swinging into corners. Not saying its any more dangerous than an r rated or x rated free climbs, difference is some times on an aid pitch there are some things out of your control like clipping jingus fixed gear (heads, dowels, machine heads).


jt512


Mar 3, 2011, 6:04 PM
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ianmeister89 wrote:
dynosore wrote:

Flying small planes is undoubtedly more dangerous than driving.

I don't buy that.

-Ian

You should.

Jay


jt512


Mar 3, 2011, 6:06 PM
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Re: [highlander] Is aid really dangerous? [In reply to]
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highlander wrote:
Funny how most of you can have an opinion on hard aid, and how dangerous it is when you have never done it. Go climb some new wave A4-A5 and report back.

You don't need to have done hard aid to understand that it is dangerous.

Jay


dynosore


Mar 4, 2011, 7:58 AM
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Re: [ianmeister89] Is aid really dangerous? [In reply to]
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ianmeister89 wrote:
dynosore wrote:

Flying small planes is undoubtedly more dangerous than driving.

I don't buy that.

-Ian

I was so sure of this intuitively that I didn't even bother to look up the stats. But since you called me out I did. Depending on whom you believe, small planes are 8-20x more deadly per exposure hour. I'd call that significantly more dangerous. Ever actually piloted a plane? Problems cascade in a hurry, not nearly as forgiving as driving a car.


(This post was edited by dynosore on Mar 4, 2011, 7:59 AM)


desertdude420


Mar 4, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Is aid really dangerous? [In reply to]
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Due to the typical exposure and the clusters-fux of gear/systems to deal with, aid climbing sure does FEEL more dangerous!


ClimbSoHigh


Mar 4, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Re: [desertdude420] Is aid really dangerous? [In reply to]
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They are both dangerous in there own ways. Saying one is more dangerous than the other is just a pissing match.


moose_droppings


Mar 4, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Re: [ClimbSoHigh] Is aid really dangerous? [In reply to]
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
They are both dangerous in there own ways. Saying one is more dangerous than the other is just a pissing match.

So........the question has been asked in the right place then.
Blush

Wink


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Big Wall and Aid Climbing

 


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