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Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident
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spikeddem


Mar 8, 2011, 8:11 AM
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Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident
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This happened Friday, March 4th 2011. I was climbing at The Motherlode on a route called Kick Me in the Jimmie. The route is a constant 10-15 degrees overhanging for 55-60 feet.

The last fall of the last climb of the day should have been a routine, clean ~12' lead fall onto the fifth bolt. After the expected catch passed, it became clear that my belayer didn't have control of the rope. I fell about 35 feet to the ground. If someone could pick the spot on the ground to crater on at any given point on that climb, I probably landed on that spot. It was a smooth boulder that sloped gently towards the ground. Another foot in any direction would have been much more devastating.

I remember bracing myself for impact, hitting the ground, and notifying everyone that I was okay about one second after I hit. I was, against the odds, just about completely fine. My ankle was a bit tweaked, and my ass hurt. I was able to walk out of the crag just fine, and now I can hardly even feel the bruise on my butt. The belayer had rope burns on the wrist of his guide hand (non-brake hand).

My belayer has been climbing for ten years (never dropped anyone before this accident), and I've been climbing with him for just over a year. He was belaying with a tube-style device that looked this, although it's possible it was a different model/brand. The rope was a Maxim Glider 9.9 Basically, it sounds like he just took his brake hand off the rope for a split second when he was trying to move into a better position to catch the fall (not sure why he wasn't there beforehand?). Once he realized his hand wouldn't be able to get the rope, he just tried compressing it by leaning forward and just pressing his forearms onto the device/rope (hence the rope burns on the forearm).

This was completely unnecessary, and it never should have happened. It reminds me of the scene in Ocean's 11 when Don Cheadle's character has a partner that screws up something during a heist, and Cheadle's character yells at him, "You had one job to do!"

Relying on a belayer is difficult for me mentally now. I tried climbing on the following Sunday and Monday. Even being lowered is terrifying if I start to accelerate even a little bit (the reasonable variance that happens sometimes). If this accident had at least been with an inexperienced belayer, I could have realistically blamed myself, and found fault with trusting "beginner" belayers. But now, considering that someone with ten years of experience--and no previous dropped falls--dropped me, it's got me in this mode of "How can I really trust anyone?"

It's only my faith in belayers that is shaken now. I believe that if I was comfortable soloing something before, I'd be just as comfortable soloing it still.

My plan is to go to the gym and practice taking larger and larger falls until I can get back to my old self.

Please stay alert while you're belaying, it's your only job.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Mar 8, 2011, 8:18 AM)


justroberto


Mar 8, 2011, 8:45 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Damn, dude. Glad you're all right. Did you go to the hospital just in case?


vegastradguy


Mar 8, 2011, 8:55 AM
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Re: [justroberto] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jesus, you're are lucky that you landed where you did- glad you're all right.

sorry to hear about your trust in belayers- but its only been a few days. your plan sounds like a good one- good luck getting it back. i would only add that itd be good to find someone you really trust to work on this with rather than a random or someone you havent climbed with alot.


Lbrombach


Mar 8, 2011, 9:09 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Good luck on the mental recovery...may your enjoyment of the sport not be ruined forever.


Lbrombach


Mar 8, 2011, 9:11 AM
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Unless you're one of the scumbags that trash the Red and piss off the Webers... but other than that - glad you aren't crippled or dead.


justroberto


Mar 8, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
Please stay alert while you're belaying, it's your only job.
Belaying = field-goal kicking. You has one jorb; fuck it up and people will hate you forever.


spikeddem


Mar 8, 2011, 9:26 AM
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justroberto wrote:
Damn, dude. Glad you're all right. Did you go to the hospital just in case?
Thanks.

I haven't been to the hospital. I didn't have any issues walking from the base of the climb to the car. On the way to the car I had to be careful not to roll my ankle, as it felt like rolling it would be a very bad idea. By the time we were driving by Miguel's my ankle felt fine.


Gmburns2000


Mar 8, 2011, 9:54 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Damn, that sucks, dude. Glad that you're OK. Fingers are crossed that you get your head back in the game. It has to be tough to come back from that, but don't let it get to you such that you can't come back. The harsh reality that everyone makes mistakes. The good reality is that life does, in fact, go on.

I don't think your belayor's fault is necessarily not being in the proper place to begin with. Yes, I'm sure that would have helped to prevent this, but you said that he took his hand off the brake strand. I'm not sure why it was necessary to do that to move. When I need my hands to move around while belaying, I still manage to do it without letting go.

I have made it out safe from a similar experience, though, so I understand your nerves.


MS1


Mar 8, 2011, 9:54 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
This happened Friday, March 4th 2011. I was climbing at The Motherlode on a route called Kick Me in the Jimmie. The route is a constant 10-15 degrees overhanging for 55-60 feet.

The last fall of the last climb of the day should have been a routine, clean ~12' lead fall onto the fifth bolt. After the expected catch passed, it became clear that my belayer didn't have control of the rope. I fell about 35 feet to the ground. If someone could pick the spot on the ground to crater on at any given point on that climb, I probably landed on that spot. It was a smooth boulder that sloped gently towards the ground. Another foot in any direction would have been much more devastating.

I remember bracing myself for impact, hitting the ground, and notifying everyone that I was okay about one second after I hit. I was, against the odds, just about completely fine. My ankle was a bit tweaked, and my ass hurt. I was able to walk out of the crag just fine, and now I can hardly even feel the bruise on my butt. The belayer had rope burns on the wrist of his guide hand (non-brake hand).

My belayer has been climbing for ten years (never dropped anyone before this accident), and I've been climbing with him for just over a year. He was belaying with a tube-style device that looked this, although it's possible it was a different model/brand. The rope was a Maxim Glider 9.9 Basically, it sounds like he just took his brake hand off the rope for a split second when he was trying to move into a better position to catch the fall (not sure why he wasn't there beforehand?). Once he realized his hand wouldn't be able to get the rope, he just tried compressing it by leaning forward and just pressing his forearms onto the device/rope (hence the rope burns on the forearm).

This was completely unnecessary, and it never should have happened. It reminds me of the scene in Ocean's 11 when Don Cheadle's character has a partner that screws up something during a heist, and Cheadle's character yells at him, "You had one job to do!"

Relying on a belayer is difficult for me mentally now. I tried climbing on the following Sunday and Monday. Even being lowered is terrifying if I start to accelerate even a little bit (the reasonable variance that happens sometimes). If this accident had at least been with an inexperienced belayer, I could have realistically blamed myself, and found fault with trusting "beginner" belayers. But now, considering that someone with ten years of experience--and no previous dropped falls--dropped me, it's got me in this mode of "How can I really trust anyone?"

It's only my faith in belayers that is shaken now. I believe that if I was comfortable soloing something before, I'd be just as comfortable soloing it still.

My plan is to go to the gym and practice taking larger and larger falls until I can get back to my old self.

Please stay alert while you're belaying, it's your only job.

As someone who was dropped about a year ago, I can relate. (In my case, the belayer was relatively inexperienced, but many of the psychological consequences are the same.) I think your plan for regaining your confident on lead is good; take it slow and you'll get your game back.


onrockandice


Mar 8, 2011, 10:09 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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This reminds me of a climb I was on. Where I had a 'stupid' moment and then a 'come to Jesus' moment.

I was on belay and I'm well regarded as 'solid' in the belay. My climber had just left the anchors and was headed up we were 600' off the deck. He went into a rest as he got gear out to place it. I took this time get a pebble that was stuck into the bottom of my foot off. (I had tried rubbing it off on the ground, my leg, even the ropes stack. It was just pushed that far into the skin that I made it worse.) I reached down as fast as I could to rub that pebble off (with my brake hand) and as I came back up his eyes and mine made contact.

Not a word was spoken, ever. He knew I understood and I knew that I had just had my ass handed to me by a man I regarded as my closest friend on rock. I had learned a vital lesson.

When you are the doorway between another man's life and death you better know which priority is higher. I could have had him clip in with a draw, I could have verbally communicated my intent and he easily could have down-climbed.

The thing that terrified me (now that I understand FF2) is that he was above the belay and had not clipped his first piece. He would have fallen and possibly stripped the belay and it might have been both of us tumbling down.

None of that happened. I learned something and I don't think I'll ever forget it. Jesus was pretty clear:

"Thou shalt not let go for any reason with thy break-hand."

I'm pretty sure that if there was an 11th commandment that's what it would say.


ClimbSoHigh


Mar 8, 2011, 12:03 PM
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Wow, thanks for sharing. Glad to hear you were more or less OK.


olderic


Mar 8, 2011, 12:13 PM
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onrockandice wrote:
T

"Thou shalt not let go for any reason with thy break-hand."

I actually think Jesus could spell better.


jt512


Mar 8, 2011, 12:13 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:

I was on belay . . .

No, you were belaying. Your partner was on belay.

In reply to:
I reached down as fast as I could to rub that pebble off (with my brake hand) and as I came back up his eyes and mine made contact.

Correction. You weren't belaying, and your partner was not on belay.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 8, 2011, 12:15 PM)


Rudmin


Mar 8, 2011, 12:30 PM
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onrockandice wrote:
This reminds me of a climb I was on. Where I had a 'stupid' moment and then a 'come to Jesus' moment.

I was on belay and I'm well regarded as 'solid' in the belay. My climber had just left the anchors and was headed up we were 600' off the deck. He went into a rest as he got gear out to place it. I took this time get a pebble that was stuck into the bottom of my foot off. (I had tried rubbing it off on the ground, my leg, even the ropes stack. It was just pushed that far into the skin that I made it worse.) I reached down as fast as I could to rub that pebble off (with my brake hand) and as I came back up his eyes and mine made contact.

Not a word was spoken, ever. He knew I understood and I knew that I had just had my ass handed to me by a man I regarded as my closest friend on rock. I had learned a vital lesson.

When you are the doorway between another man's life and death you better know which priority is higher. I could have had him clip in with a draw, I could have verbally communicated my intent and he easily could have down-climbed.

The thing that terrified me (now that I understand FF2) is that he was above the belay and had not clipped his first piece. He would have fallen and possibly stripped the belay and it might have been both of us tumbling down.

None of that happened. I learned something and I don't think I'll ever forget it. Jesus was pretty clear:

"Thou shalt not let go for any reason with thy break-hand."

I'm pretty sure that if there was an 11th commandment that's what it would say.

Why not just use your other hand? Or switch the rope to your other hand? This is why belay rules such as, "only your right hand can hold the brake strand" are stupid. There are a lot of reasons that you need to be able to do stuff while belaying, like untangling ropes, getting ready to move, picking pebbles out of shoes. Keep one hand on the brake, use the other hand when the climber isn't moving. Worst that happens is you short rope your buddy.


jt512


Mar 8, 2011, 12:31 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
My belayer has been climbing for ten years (never dropped anyone before this accident) . . .

Years in service can be misleading. There are some climbers who just never get it: from the moment your climber leaves the ground until he says "off belay" your brake hand must be continuously holding the rope. I've seen beginners who get it immediately and guys who've been climbing since the 70s who don't. You have to assess every belayer individually.

A week ago, a climber on the route next to me was standing on a ledge at the fourth bolt of his climb, and I looked over at his belayer (using [?] an ATC), and he was just standing there with his hands on his hips not holding the rope at all. I finally asked him, "Is your partner clipped in up there?" And he goes, "Oh, I guess 'technically' I should keep my hand on the rope." He then put his brake hand back on the rope, so I guess "technically" his partner was back on belay.

Some people just don't get it.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 8, 2011, 1:15 PM)


lena_chita
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Mar 8, 2011, 12:53 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Wow, I'm glad you are O.K. With all the boulders at the bottom there, landing without breaking anything is no small miracle.

Years of experience are not necessarily indicative of competency. I don't know of this person's background, but some people climb/belay for many years and never take or catch an unexpected lead fall, while others catch a dozen falls a day.
Though you are right, we look at years of experience as a shorthand for overall competency, and if you can't trust someone who has been climbing for 10 years, how can you trust anyone?

It seems that the longer I climb, the more people I have climbed with -- but the circle of people I really really trust keeps getting smaller with time, not bigger.

Good luck rebuilding the confidence, and getting back into climbing at your limit. Time is a big thing.


notapplicable


Mar 8, 2011, 7:09 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Damn Spike, glad you threaded the needle on that one. It sounds like your belayer was able to create enough friction that you were not in complete free fall, is that right? Could you feel the friction on the rope as you fell?

Either way, good luck with sorting out the confidence/trust issues. Hopefully you have one or two longstanding partners you can fall back on to belay for awhile.


blondgecko
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Mar 9, 2011, 3:13 AM
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onrockandice wrote:
The thing that terrified me (now that I understand FF2) is that he was above the belay and had not clipped his first piece. He would have fallen and possibly stripped the belay and it might have been both of us tumbling down.

[pedant]Actually, that situation would only be a FF2 if you actually had him on belay. If you'd dropped him, he'd have fallen to the end of the rope, reducing things to a fall factor at most slightly above 1. Not that I'm recommending this as an option, or anything.[/pedant]

To spikeddem: damn, dude. Glad you're OK.


socalclimber


Mar 9, 2011, 4:00 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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Glad your ok, that was a big fall. That would also be the last time I climbed with that person.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 9, 2011, 4:13 AM
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Glad you are OK, brutha... I remember watching Mike Reardon get dropped by a very experienced belayer some time ago at Malibu.

Personally, I've never been dropped, but I would have a LOT of confidence in a belayer with experience who HAS dropped someone in the past, as they would most likely be the most attentive belayers from that experience.


Partner j_ung


Mar 9, 2011, 4:18 AM
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Crap, Spikey! Glad you're in one piece!


Partner j_ung


Mar 9, 2011, 4:20 AM
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jt512 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
My belayer has been climbing for ten years (never dropped anyone before this accident) . . .

Years in service can be misleading. There are some climbers who just never get it: from the moment your climber leaves the ground until he says "off belay" your brake hand must be continuously holding the rope. I've seen beginners who get it immediately and guys who've been climbing since the 70s who don't. You have to assess every belayer individually.

This so true. I see it all the time and wonder how some people have gone through all those years without killing somebody.


Pres


Mar 9, 2011, 5:07 AM
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damn! This is a great reality co-signer. I'm just starting out, and for me the reality of the belay is still being instilled. I tend to be very serious about everything I do, and hearing this is one of those gut check shares. Thanks, for putting that out there for me to keep in my base, and for reminding those with more experience about it.


gblauer
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Mar 9, 2011, 6:33 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
. it's got me in this mode of "How can I really trust anyone?"

It's only my faith in belayers that is shaken now.

So glad to hear that you are ok. THis happened to me in the gym, with much more serious consequences. I broke my back and it really shook my confidence in all belayers (except my husband and Jen/Gavin). Interestingly, I was able to get back to indoor climbing very quickly. My "head" indoors was great. Outdoors was an entirely different story. I was sketched for almost the entire outdoor season. I categorized the accident in the "bad things can happen when you climb" column. I had irrational/rational fear about almost everything.

Fast forward to today...I am still "aware" of the inherent dangers of the sport, I double check every thing, but, I have moved on. My head is decent, I only climb with trusted/experienced partners and hope that I will never experience that 35 foot free fall again! I agree with Lena, my circle of trust has gotten much smaller.

Good luck, I hope you recover quickly.


(This post was edited by gblauer on Mar 9, 2011, 6:40 AM)


spikeddem


Mar 9, 2011, 6:50 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
Damn Spike, glad you threaded the needle on that one. It sounds like your belayer was able to create enough friction that you were not in complete free fall, is that right? Could you feel the friction on the rope as you fell?

That is correct. It definitely wasn't 100% free fall. It's about what you'd imagine if you tried to catch a fall with the climber's waist about 4-5' above the last bolt, but used your wrists to brake--which is, of course, what happened. Hard to say if I could feel the friction. I do know that I could hear the rope whizzing over a material (probably the belayer's jacket and/or wrist). With a complete free fall, I'm not sure if I would have heard that at all.


dynosore


Mar 9, 2011, 6:51 AM
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Glad you came out ok, close call for sure.

I wonder if skinny ropes are exacerbating this phenomenon. Not that it excuses bad belaying, but a 10.5 is certainly going to be more forgiving in an ATC than a 9.9 if you are a second late in arresting a fall.


lena_chita
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Mar 9, 2011, 7:31 AM
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dynosore wrote:
I wonder if skinny ropes are exacerbating this phenomenon. Not that it excuses bad belaying, but a 10.5 is certainly going to be more forgiving in an ATC than a 9.9 if you are a second late in arresting a fall.

Sure, skinny ropes are more likely to slide through the ATC easily. Our gym uses these really thick ropes for TRs, and sometimes you almost have to push them through the ATC, to lower someone lightweight.

But the belay device that was used in the accident, if I understand correctly, was the one that had a high-friction mode (those teeth), and 9.9 is not super-skinny...

Getting a thicker rope in order to mitigate a glaring belay error, hoping that next time the rope will get stuck in an ATC even if the belayer screws up? That's just fucked up.


lena_chita
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Mar 9, 2011, 7:38 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
Personally, I've never been dropped, but I would have a LOT of confidence in a belayer with experience who HAS dropped someone in the past, as they would most likely be the most attentive belayers from that experience.


I am of two minds about it. If the belay mistake was due to inattention, or too relaxed and cavalier attitude, then yes, I can see that the person could learn the lesson and become the most attentive belayer ever. Something like what onrockandice mentioned, the OH SHIT wake-up call that you never forget.

But if it was due to a problem with their belay technique, then I am not sure. It is very hard to change an ingrained habbit after 10 years, I would be worried that the person would revert to the more familiar comfortable (but incorrect) stroke, or just continue doing what they were doing, maybe even unconsciously.

And as a climber who fell, you probably can't judge very well what was the reason for the mistake. Was the guy talking to friends? Gawking at a hot girl climbing Convicted? Did he trip and bump his arm? Or was he a walking timebomb who has been belaying the same incorrect way for 10 years, and it was simply a matter of time and chance, before he dropped someone?


TradEddie


Mar 9, 2011, 9:11 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
Glad you are OK, brutha... I remember watching Mike Reardon get dropped by a very experienced belayer some time ago at Malibu.

Personally, I've never been dropped, but I would have a LOT of confidence in a belayer with experience who HAS dropped someone in the past, as they would most likely be the most attentive belayers from that experience.

My experience was slightly different, while I now trusted that the belayer who previously dropped me would never again be so distracted by adjacent cleavage, he kept the belay so tight that I simply couldn't climb at all...

It's hard to accept that even an experienced, competent, attentive belayer could make a mistake at just the wrong moment, but in my opinion that's the reality, and if you can't accept it, you shouldn't be climbing. I may be flamed for this by many experienced, competent, attentive belayers who say they've never dropped anyone, but that doesn't prove anything.
All you can do is try stack the odds in your favor; pick your belayer carefully. People spend hours discussing and comparing the best gear before buying, yet are prepared to let almost anyone belay them.

Glad it worked out well for the OP, in my case, I missed work for a week, sore neck for 6 months, and 8 years later still hate falling at the 4th bolt in the gym...

TE


davyanderson


Mar 9, 2011, 9:28 AM
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Re: [jt512] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onrockandice wrote:

I was on belay . . .

No, you were belaying. Your partner was on belay.

In reply to:
I reached down as fast as I could to rub that pebble off (with my brake hand) and as I came back up his eyes and mine made contact.

Correction. You weren't belaying, and your partner was not on belay.

Jay

I lol'd


potreroed


Mar 9, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.


spikeddem


Mar 9, 2011, 10:11 AM
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Re: [potreroed] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.


socalclimber


Mar 9, 2011, 11:06 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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The attitude of handling the grigri is correct. Just because "auto" locking devices are supposed to, does not mean they will.

Years ago I was solo aid climbing with a grigri and while I was cleaning dirt and crap out of a shallow crack. Some of it managed to lodge in the device preventing the cam from operating properly. I found this out when a piece pulled and I started sliding down the rope slowly to the backup knot.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Mar 9, 2011, 11:12 AM)


ClimbSoHigh


Mar 9, 2011, 11:38 AM
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In reply to:
That is correct. It definitely wasn't 100% free fall. It's about what you'd imagine if you tried to catch a fall with the climber's waist about 4-5' above the last bolt, but used your wrists to brake--which is, of course, what happened. Hard to say if I could feel the friction. I do know that I could hear the rope whizzing over a material (probably the belayer's jacket and/or wrist). With a complete free fall, I'm not sure if I would have heard that at all.

I'm just trying to think how much friction an arm jammed in the middle of the ropes would produce and I feel it would be very minimal at slowing a free fall. Possibly a kink in the rope temporarily jamming in the atc might have played a hand in your remarkable outcome? Any feeling of a slight snag for a second? Just trying to picture how anyone could crater from that high and literally walk away. You are a very luck man, but you already know that.

If I rub your belly, can I get some of your good luck?


spikeddem


Mar 9, 2011, 11:53 AM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote:
In reply to:
That is correct. It definitely wasn't 100% free fall. It's about what you'd imagine if you tried to catch a fall with the climber's waist about 4-5' above the last bolt, but used your wrists to brake--which is, of course, what happened. Hard to say if I could feel the friction. I do know that I could hear the rope whizzing over a material (probably the belayer's jacket and/or wrist). With a complete free fall, I'm not sure if I would have heard that at all.

I'm just trying to think how much friction an arm jammed in the middle of the ropes would produce and I feel it would be very minimal at slowing a free fall. Possibly a kink in the rope temporarily jamming in the atc might have played a hand in your remarkable outcome? Any feeling of a slight snag for a second? Just trying to picture how anyone could crater from that high and literally walk away. You are a very luck man, but you already know that.

My acceleration towards the ground felt constant, but that's all I can really say. My guess is that the wrist of his left hand was compressing the brake side of the rope and that he did the same thing with his right hand but his coat protected him from the rope burn. With both wrists compressing the brake strand of the rope into his stomach, I can imagine a decrease in speed relative to a free fall (especially with the jacket).

In reply to:
If I rub your belly, can I get some of your good luck?

Laugh


notapplicable


Mar 9, 2011, 2:21 PM
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TradEddie wrote:
It's hard to accept that even an experienced, competent, attentive belayer could make a mistake at just the wrong moment, but in my opinion that's the reality, and if you can't accept it, you shouldn't be climbing.

Yep. I like to say that there are really only two things that can go wrong while climbing. Anything and Everything.

People are fallible and there is no way to escape that fact.


potreroed


Mar 9, 2011, 3:06 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
The attitude of handling the grigri is correct. Just because "auto" locking devices are supposed to, does not mean they will.

Years ago I was solo aid climbing with a grigri and while I was cleaning dirt and crap out of a shallow crack. Some of it managed to lodge in the device preventing the cam from operating properly. I found this out when a piece pulled and I started sliding down the rope slowly to the backup knot.

After just once aid soloing with a gri-gri I went back to my trusty Soloist.


socalclimber


Mar 9, 2011, 3:28 PM
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Yeah, I had the soloist, I actually prefer the solo-aid more.


bearbreeder


Mar 10, 2011, 12:49 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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all it takes is one moment of inattentiveness .... even the most "experienced" can have a lapse in judgement

the worst is when someone starts talking to the belayer ... happens quite often in the gym or more popular crags ... usually its some guy trying to hit on some girl

just this weekend i caught a girl i knew take her brake hand off the gri gri when some guy i knew started chatting her up ... i quickly reminded her that her climber is now "dead"

if i see my belayer yaking away or flirting ... i just lower down and tell em to go flirt instead of climb ...


sp115


Mar 10, 2011, 8:17 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
all it takes is one moment of inattentiveness .... even the most "experienced" can have a lapse in judgement

the worst is when someone starts talking to the belayer ... happens quite often in the gym or more popular crags ... usually its some guy trying to hit on some girl

just this weekend i caught a girl i knew take her brake hand off the gri gri when some guy i knew started chatting her up ... i quickly reminded her that her climber is now "dead"

if i see my belayer yaking away or flirting ... i just lower down and tell em to go flirt instead of climb ...

Yup, I typically don't make a scene, but have had to on occasion remind a new belayer, in a polite tone to simply STFU.

I always approach bealying with a slight sense of nervousness, or at least a heightened sense of focus. And truthfully, I hope that feeling never goes away.


onrockandice


Mar 14, 2011, 3:57 PM
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It was the swing pitch. I had stacked rope over my left foot as I brought him up. Then as he climbed past I payed rope off the stack of 15' coils (70m rope stack), (my left foot had the rock in the pad at the front). I had tried to rub it on the ropes hanging down. I was belaying using my right hand as the brake hand. I had slid my hand down to the rope stack with my right hand and I had tried to get it with one finger. The ropes made it hard and I was almost dropping the stack. I tried reaching in with my left but when I did it put more pressure on whatever was poking me (rock/pebble) as I had to weight my left foot to lean that way. I rotated my foot outward so the pad was facing me. I reached over with my left hand and grabbed the brake side of the rope, I then lost my balance (I over-balanced to the left as my ankle rolled and my left foot dropped forcing me right again), the rope stack started to slide, I took my left hand to catch the rope stack and put my right hand back on the brake all at the same time. So for a second the brake was loose, I was off balance and my leader looked at me with a WTF expression. He saw the transfer, juggle and then me let go as I started to fall into the wall with my feet sliding downward.

In retrospect I should have let the rope stack fall and kept the rope under control. That would have avoided the "almost". We could have re-stacked the rope. As it happened he climbed up to a bolt clipped the bolt and then I fixed the whole mess, restacked the rope and he took off. This was when I had been climbing for about 11 months but had done lots of multi-pitch and about 200 outdoor climbs in total.

He showed me a different way to belay, stacking the rope over a sling I would extend up to the belay anchors which keeps my feet free in case I need to move to dodge a falling rock or debris. We never discussed my lapse but we did start me belaying differently on multi-pitch routes.

Verdict: Gumby

I already know this is not a defense of what happened. Someone asked me why I didn't use my other hand so I am just offering an answer, not a justification. Dumb is dumb. A core rule that is the backbone of a rope-team's trust was broken. I know that. I regret that and you know... it bothers me every time I put someone on belay. I kind of feel like I'm the idiot that played with a loaded gun and shot someone. I remember it every time I put someone on belay. I'm thankful for that reminder but many climbers are able to go through the entire gauntlet of climbing without *that* reminder.

I fully deserve whatever abuse you have. There is no excuse but I knew that when I posted it. I was willing to eat it all over again (crow that is) because it was an accident that didn't involve a ground-fall but there is no denying an accident happened. The story needs told as it (and the @$$ kicking) adds to the collective experience here.

It's a memory I cannot shake.


majid_sabet


Mar 14, 2011, 5:00 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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two questions

1- belay device brand/model
2-how old was your rope


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 5:54 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
two questions

1- belay device brand/model
2-how old was your rope

I already gave as best a description of the belay device as I could (its in the OP). The rope was ~a year old. That said, I only use the 70m in areas where I will actually use the 70m (otherwise I use my 60m). Thus, I never use it in my home crags. It's probably been used on less than 50 pitches.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Mar 14, 2011, 5:55 PM)


majid_sabet


Mar 14, 2011, 7:36 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
two questions

1- belay device brand/model
2-how old was your rope

I already gave as best a description of the belay device as I could (its in the OP). The rope was ~a year old. That said, I only use the 70m in areas where I will actually use the 70m (otherwise I use my 60m). Thus, I never use it in my home crags. It's probably been used on less than 50 pitches.

ok, just wanted to know ,if your rope was very new cause I have noticed newer ropes slip little more in tube type devices specially with the older generation of ATCs .


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 14, 2011, 7:37 PM)


KeitaroHoshi


Mar 15, 2011, 12:09 AM
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Be carefull with those figure 8 belay devices.
They can provide 'little to no friction' and unscrew your screwgate.

IF used incorrectly.


(This post was edited by KeitaroHoshi on Mar 15, 2011, 12:14 AM)


erisspirit


Mar 15, 2011, 11:35 AM
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KeitaroHoshi wrote:
Be carefull with those figure 8 belay devices.
They can provide 'little to no friction' and unscrew your screwgate.

IF used incorrectly.

A figure 8 wasn't used in this accident


boymeetsrock


Mar 15, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Glad your OK spike. Good luck getting back on the horse.


Stoves


Mar 15, 2011, 7:55 PM
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Glad you are ok as well.

Scary how people who have been climbing for so long would make such a mistake!

On a higher note you can count on me to lead belay you after I take this one class!


potreroed


Mar 21, 2011, 5:06 PM
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I'll never understand why people drape the rope over a foot. I see that a lot and I just don't get it. When I'm on belay I want to be able to dance and move about.


csproul


Mar 22, 2011, 6:30 AM
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potreroed wrote:
I'll never understand why people drape the rope over a foot. I see that a lot and I just don't get it. When I'm on belay I want to be able to dance and move about.
It's a good way to keep your feet from being sunburned when you take your shoes off at the belayWink


jsh


Mar 22, 2011, 2:54 PM
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Spike, glad you're okay.

If this incident gave you any new insight into figuring out whether a belayer really is solid or not, I'd love to hear it.

Certainly, you thought he was, and he wasn't. Just upthread, we have "I'm 100% solid on the belay ... I just took my hand off to itch my foot" A nontrivial number of people self-assess and report themselves as competent, when in fact they are not. So the crucial thing is to figure out who these people are before you give them your rope. Any insight you have on that, now, is helpful. Can you see anything in 20/20 hindsight that might have warned you?

Love the Don Cheadle quote. perfectly apt.


(This post was edited by jsh on Mar 22, 2011, 2:55 PM)


jape


Apr 14, 2011, 9:08 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....


(This post was edited by jape on Apr 14, 2011, 9:18 AM)


notapplicable


Apr 14, 2011, 12:48 PM
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jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

This^^ all sounds like a problem with belayers, not with belay devices.


justroberto


Apr 14, 2011, 2:31 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

This^^ all sounds like a problem with belayers, not with belay devices.

No way. Tube devices are instruments of death. The bodies are stacked up like cordwood!


jakedatc


Apr 14, 2011, 4:51 PM
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Re: [jape] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too..

good belay devices can't help bad belayers.


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Apr 14, 2011, 4:52 PM)


carabiner96


Apr 14, 2011, 6:37 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too..

good belay devices can't help bad belayers.
Jake can smell out negative cinch comments, BEWARE!


healyje


Apr 14, 2011, 6:49 PM
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jape wrote:
A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here.

Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.


(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 14, 2011, 6:50 PM)


jape


Apr 15, 2011, 6:51 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jakedatc wrote:
jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too..

good belay devices can't help bad belayers.

No one really knows about the DS tragedy. We replicated a way that the cinch "unlocks" at certain angles when weighted and postulate that given the steepness of the wall and where the belayer may have stood that it's possible that the cinch went out of lock mode...

Kind of like "clam shelling" in this report, well worth a close look for several possible cinch failures...

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf

Equivocation doesn't really work when cinchs have broken while lowering...generation 1, whatever, still, cinch is not as good as gg2...


jape


Apr 15, 2011, 6:54 AM
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Re: [healyje] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
jape wrote:
A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here.

Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.


Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR....

Yer math is poor as well...

Takers?

Any1?


jape


Apr 15, 2011, 6:56 AM
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Re: [jape] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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jape wrote:
healyje wrote:
jape wrote:
A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here.

Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.


Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR....

Yer math is poor as well...

Takers?

Any1?

Point being, OP would not have decked with a gg2, I think some yall need more clarification...I will even replicate that next time I'm at the lode.


michael1245


Apr 15, 2011, 7:10 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
He was belaying with a tube-style device that looked this, although it's possible it was a different model/brand.

sorry to hear about your accident. good luck with the recovery.

I checked your link to the device. I'm really not comfortable being belayed on ATCs anymore. I carry one for rappelling, but prefer to use a Grigri.

Of course, accidents happen with Grigri's too... but I just feel safer on them, at least while climbing.

good luck!


jakedatc


Apr 15, 2011, 7:47 AM
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jape wrote:
jakedatc wrote:
jape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety.
I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance.

That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Potreroed is right...

Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.

I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.

What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too..

good belay devices can't help bad belayers.

No one really knows about the DS tragedy. We replicated a way that the cinch "unlocks" at certain angles when weighted and postulate that given the steepness of the wall and where the belayer may have stood that it's possible that the cinch went out of lock mode...

Kind of like "clam shelling" in this report, well worth a close look for several possible cinch failures...

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf

Equivocation doesn't really work when cinchs have broken while lowering...generation 1, whatever, still, cinch is not as good as gg2...

blah blah blah the guy had his hand on the cam when the guy fell and it did not lock. BELAYER ERROR aka FAIL

not sure what world you think you live in but that is pretty easy to figure out.

whatever.. totally RAD YO BRAHHHH! learn how to write coherently.


Partner j_ung


Apr 15, 2011, 8:25 AM
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jape wrote:
healyje wrote:
jape wrote:
A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....

I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here.

Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.


Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR....

Yer math is poor as well...

Takers?

Any1?

Do you really not understand that Gri-gris also have failure modes, or are you being purposely obtuse?

healyje said it best. There's no substitute, including a Gri-gri2, for a competent belay. Incompetent belayers find a way to drop people every bit as often with Gri-gris as they do with ATCs and other tube-style devices. Competent belayers need nothing but a set of hips.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Apr 15, 2011, 8:27 AM)


notapplicable


Apr 15, 2011, 1:47 PM
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jape wrote:
...(I) really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.

michael1245 wrote:
I'm really not comfortable being belayed on ATCs anymore.

A couple interesting sentiments here. I'm curious if you guys understand that -

A. Feeling that way has no rational foundation.

B. The device is not belaying you, a person is.


danabart


Apr 15, 2011, 3:33 PM
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As did many others here, I learned to belay with a hip belay. One nice thing I find about that (and certainly, this may not apply to everyone) was that it sure as hell made you intensely aware of keeping your brake hand on the rope at all times. If you let go, there was no illusion of security that would be given with a rope running through a device.


cacalderon


Apr 15, 2011, 5:45 PM
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funny


cacalderon


Apr 15, 2011, 5:50 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing..

interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound...

I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ??


(This post was edited by cacalderon on Apr 15, 2011, 5:58 PM)


spikeddem


Feb 18, 2012, 10:14 PM
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Re: [cacalderon] Red River Gorge -- Motherlode Accident [In reply to]
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cacalderon wrote:
good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing..

interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound...

I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ??

I've moved out of state, but I'd climb with that guy any day of the week still.

Here's an update on my mental progress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2htUpUyryfk

It takes consistent to work to fight back to getting into a healthy, positive mental state after I take time off, but it's doable. I was scared during that fall (the one i just linked), but not terrified. Certainly not anymore scared than I would have been before my accident.


sungam


Feb 19, 2012, 1:00 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
cacalderon wrote:
good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing..

interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound...

I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ??

I've moved out of state, but I'd climb with that guy any day of the week still.

Here's an update on my mental progress:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2htUpUyryfk

It takes consistent to work to fight back to getting into a healthy, positive mental state after I take time off, but it's doable. I was scared during that fall (the one i just linked), but not terrified. Certainly not anymore scared than I would have been before my accident.
As I said elsewhere, I officially love that video.


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