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flesh


Mar 11, 2011, 1:19 PM
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flesh


Mar 11, 2011, 1:35 PM
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brokesomeribs


Mar 11, 2011, 2:20 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
LONG/ (if you want the short version skip to IN SHORT)A little background, I started climbing when I was 18. By 20, I was redpointing 13a and bouldering v7 outside. At 21, I was in the same spot. At about this time a couple friends of mine started to improve quickly. One of them went from v8- v11 in 6 months and the other did close to the same.... however even though I was climbing with these two the whole time doing exactly what they were doing in terms of climbing days/ climbing type/ training/ diet/ etc.

After I while I noticed something. Most the difficult boulder problems outside we're crimpy and this is what these two were sending. I thought, Okay, I need to train crimps, also I noticed these two were some super low body fat guys and i should do that as well. At the time I was working full-time and going to college part-time. It was difficult to spend every little bit of time extra climbing. I started climbing almost purely on crimps and typically twice a week I would do 2.5 hours of cardio after climbing, so I had an empty stomach, and was just burning fat. I'd typically burn 1200 calories just from the cardio. I'm 6 ft and over a period of one year I went from about 175 to 157. I started bouldering harder outside and the weight, of course, made a difference.... then the injuries started coming. Up till this point I had elbow tendinitis three times (from lock off training on a system board) which ended when I stopped training lock offs and one arms. Also I had had one finger injury, from a big move off a mono.

For the next two years I slowly progressed but the injuriess kept adding up. In total, between the age of 20-23 I had elbow tendinitis three times and 8! different finger injuries. I hurt my right pinky once, right index finger twice (still scar tissue on that one), my right middle finger pulley once, my right pointer finger pulley, my right pointer finger first digit on the tendon not knuckle. My left hand middle pulley from the mono and then the FINAL one came. At this time, I had sent about a dozen v10 and a dozen v9s outside. And was working hard to get the elusive v11. I was falling on the last move of an 8 move v11. I fell there three times. IT wasn't the crux, quite frustrating. This is for perspective. I had been climbing v10 for 1.5 years and done a dozen of them but couldn't get a v11... my friends were doing v12's.

Regarding my friends, there was something very obviously different between us. In a period of three years I had roughly ten different injuries that would require anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months off. Meanwhile, guess how many they had? Yep, none. NONE NONE NONE NONE! WTF!

Quite frustrating. Clearly, some of us are built different. One of them is bouldering v13's and flashing v11's now.

Anyways, so one day I'm bouldering at the gym on a v7, it had a big move off a slopey crimp for the right hand. It was well below my limit so I thought no big deal. I go to pull off the slopey crimp with much of my weight on my right hand and just as I hit the next hold my right hand pops off heavily weighted in a crimp position and I hear a POP! I had heard many pops at this point and I thought great... here it goes again. As it turns out, it was an injury to the right hand, middle finger, middle knuckle. This time it was different, it was BAD! It was so bad that I took three months off total, without touching hold. After this break I went to try some 5.10 routes, STILL extremely painful, so bad I took off another six months. Once again, I tried to climb, after 9 MONTHS OFF and it hurt too bad. I could tell it was still maybe 20% healed. I took off another two years. I started climbing again and it hurt but it seemed okay as long as I didn't crimp and I stuck with endurance stuff instead of bouldering or power crimping or campus boards. I started a business and get very busy and climbing stopped being a big part of my life... I still went a few times a month and loved it but it wasn't the same, it had been years and my finger was barely better, how could I ever get to the level I was once at? My answer, it's impossible. IT will never happen. I kept climbing a bit here and there. 5 yrs after this injury I started climbing a bit harder making sure to never crimp anything... if there was a crimper, I'd open hand it with three fingers, which made it harder. I mangaged about v7 and 5.12- throughout this period. After about 6 years I started taking it seriously again, however I coudn't crimp anything so I was very limited... always looking for open hand boulder problems on pinches and slopers.... trying hard not to get sucked into crimping by peer pressure or from my ego. I made it to maybe v8's... only slopey/pinchy/compression type stuff. I was back up to about 175 lbs.

Short version, I am VERY injury prone, I had an injury so bad it took years to heal and after 9 years is still about 80%, I've had a total of 10 injuries, 7 fingers.

So, how did I get to V12? THIS IS FOR ALL YOU CLIMBERS WHO ALWAYS WISHED YOU COULD GET BETTER BUT INJURIES PREVENTED YOU FROM ACCOMPLISHING YOUR CLIMBING GOALS AND REACHING YOUR FULL POTENTIAL I FEEL YOU! IT SUCKS! All of what I'm about to describe was done while working full time running my own small business.

What I'm about to describe is simple to understand and difficult to do.

Haha, this is so long i had to use multiple posts. Hope you guys like it.

DIET:

-Fact, all the top climbers have very low body fat, if you want to climb at YOUR best you must have low body fat. If you aren't sure the fat makes a big difference and you don't want to take my word for it, do this test. By a weight vest and put 20lbs in it. Then go boulder and see how well you do. After that do this. See how many pull ups you can do with the weight vest on and without it on. Here are my numbers, with weight on, 9 pull ups, with weight off 24 pull ups.

My friend told me to do this, he said I needed to cut weight, I didn't believe him... then I did it. In the last three month's I've gone from 175 lbs to 159. FYI, I've gone from v9 to v12 in three months. Luck? NO, I don't think so.

How I cut weight. Well, the truth is, I JUST DON"T EAT MUCH ANYMORE :) there's no secret. I've calculated there's about 3500 calories in a pound so if you eat 1500 calories a day and you burn 2000 calories a day, you will lose about 1/7 of a pound a day or one pound a week. I think this is a balanced way of doing it, if you go more extreme than this... You'll likely not be getting enough of the nutrients and fuel you need to heal and get stronger from climbing. Obviously, when your eating less calories than usual, it's more important to eat healthy when you do eat. I won't go into what to eat, but feel free to ask.

A couple rules to follow that help.

1. Don't get fixated on how many calories you burn/eat in a day.... spread it out... look at it based on how many you eat/burn in a month. If you have one bad day, don't let it get you down... you have the rest of the month to make up for it... as you see losing weight improving your climbing performance (you will!) it will motivate you to stick with the new diet.

2. Eat small meals/often. Let's assume (i don't know the real numbers) that as an athlete, your body can burn 1800/calories/day even on the days your don't work out (more if your bigger than me, less if your not), it stands to reason that over a 24/hr period I burn about 75 calories/hr without working out. If I binged and ate 1000 calories in one hour.... maybe I'll burn 200-300 of them sitting there watching tv and the rest goes to fat. Instead, I eat about 300 calories at a time, give or take, about six times a day, of course I add a little to this on days I work out. This allows my body to burn it and use it instead of store it for fat.

3. Don't lift alot of weights, naturally you want to do light weight/high reps for injury prevention such as push ups to prevent elbow tendinitis and shoulder exercises to prevent shoulder injuries. My brother, can lift MAD weight, he can do 12 pull ups with 90 lbs hanging off him, He can do 10 pull downs on the machine with the ENTIRE STACK of 265 lbs... however he has been stuck at v7 for years.... he's 185 lbs and 6 1. He can squat four plates three times (over four hundred pounds) etc. He is carrying at LEAST 15lbs of muscle you don't need to climb hard, so if your goal is to climb hard, don't get unnecessary muscle. MYTH, you need to be able to do one arm pull ups or massive pull ups to climb hard, fact, I know dozens of ppl who climb v12 and harder who can do one or 0 one arms, including me. It's unnessary weight. It's overkill.

4. What do i eat? Typical day. Non exercise day
9am- Kashi GO LEAN ceral w/o milk just dry, I know, doesn't sound good, I don't mind Wink 120 calories, one cup. Also, a morning latte 12 oz, I order with half the sweet stuff, about 200 calories. Maybe a bit or OJ too. YOU must eat right when you wake up or shortly thereafter.

Noon, ONE chicken taco with cheese and salsa. Yep just one.

3pm, Some more kashi about a cup, and a small latte, single shot only one cup.

5pm, a little kashi.

7pm, one of my bigger meals, I love food so this is my chance to eat real food, try not to eat your last meal later than this. I'll get a steak or a couple slices of pizza and a salad with spinach or kale, etc. about 500 calories.

By midnight I'm ready for bed AND starving, to ease the hunger pains, I'll eat a few kalamata olives or a few wheat thins so I an fall asleep.

Drink lots of water all day!

5. Do cardio, I climb about every other day, two days off if I'm really beat. I try to do 30-60 minutes of cardio and injury prevention exercises on EVERY day off from climbing.

Feel free to ask questions. I'll be posting what I do to train for climbing and some real injury free power training breakthroughs I've made in the last few months in this thread in about 2 hours.

What is this I don't even.

Are you trying to sell something?


ryanb


Mar 11, 2011, 3:14 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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Interesting but I am having trouble figuring out the timeline. You are saying that you got injured less as a result of loosing weight or injured more as a result of eating less?


cacalderon


Mar 11, 2011, 4:44 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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long.. you weren't kidding.

glad that you recovered, keep it up.


DouglasHunter


Mar 11, 2011, 5:44 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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I can't wait until jt512 sees THIS post. Of course he may have read it and gouged his eyes out already.


jt512


Mar 11, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:
I can't wait until jt512 sees THIS post. Of course he may have read it and gouged his eyes out already.

Actually, I don't think his diet is too far off the mark. His target caloric deficit of 500 kcal/day is about what I recommend. I'd eliminate the high-fat dairy completely. If you're only consuming 1500 kcal/day, 400 of those kcals (27%) shouldn't be two 200-kcal lattes. That's a lot of fat that you don't need, and a missed opportunity to consume protein and carbohydrate that you do need. Anyone willing to eat dry kashi (read: dirt-flavored sawdust) twice twice a day, ought to be able to switch to non-fat lattes.

Similarly, substituting extra chicken (which had better be grilled, not deep fried) for the cheese on the taco would provide badly needed protein in place of unneeded fat. Obviously, the pizza has to go; and if you have to eat red meat, it should at least be very lean, but better yet would be white meat chicken or a lean fish, like halibut.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 11, 2011, 6:12 PM)


johnwesely


Mar 11, 2011, 7:24 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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I don't get it. The first time you cut weight, you got injured a ton. The second time you cut weight, you didn't. What is the take home message?


ceebo


Mar 12, 2011, 8:06 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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This is quite interesting. Do you think that in the first 2 years perhaps you pushed too hard? 13a is some peoples 5 year plan, and others probably cant even see themselves ever reaching it. After further pushing yourself into training crimps, being the most dangerous is it possible that you are not actually injury prone?, and they were only a result of impatience?.

I have no clue on dietary issues, but was it possible that because you pushed very fast from the age of 18 (that could have started chronic injuries) and then by adding such a strict diet.. it all built up to a bad situation?.

Anyway the strong feeling i got was that all being said and done, you always had it within your capability to reach v12. If you could go back would you rather have put up with being out climbed by friends yet enjoyed years of injury free climbing?. Or, do you think that you truly are just injury prone.. and that you simply understand and know how to better avoid them now?.


taydude


Mar 12, 2011, 9:22 AM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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That diet sounds awful. I agree on the unnecessary fat in the lattes. I'm pulling v9 pretty consistently right now and I'm ~160 lbs 5'11. I'm going to continue completely disregarding my diet and running about twice a week and I'll get back to you in 3 more years. I betcha I don't have to starve myself to get to v12.


spikeddem


Mar 13, 2011, 9:45 PM
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Re: [taydude] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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taydude wrote:
I'm ~160 lbs 5'11.

That's pretty close to what the OP said he was. 6' and 157 lbs


Jnclk


Mar 14, 2011, 4:46 AM
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Re: [taydude] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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taydude wrote:
That diet sounds awful. I agree on the unnecessary fat in the lattes. I'm pulling v9 pretty consistently right now and I'm ~160 lbs 5'11. I'm going to continue completely disregarding my diet and running about twice a week and I'll get back to you in 3 more years. I betcha I don't have to starve myself to get to v12.


At 5'11" and 160 lbs it certainly doesn't sound like you're in need of weight loss, but completely disregarding your diet is a great way to slow recovery and decrease performance.


squiros


Mar 14, 2011, 5:41 AM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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i've been stuck at v9/v10 for 2 months now after 2 years of climbing. i'm already 5% body fat, some 140+ lbs at 5'10". it's frustrating since i have no weight to drop and i'm looking for that elusive v12 by the end of this year. never had an injury yet. just keep falling off the crux of v11's because i'm simply too weak.

anyone have an opinion on whether 2 months is a plateau or just impatience? was really looking to hit v12 by year's end, though.

ceebo brings an excellent point. it's better to not get injured by erring on the side of caution than to crank too hard and be gone for 2 years.

any training schedules that have broken plateaus? i've heard MWF is good, some people do 5 days/week and some do every day.
my v12 friend says never use heel hooks and if there are no obvious feet, campus. sloppy footwork means stronger hands to compensate which ultimately in the long run is better. he climbs 5 days/week.
my v13 friend says gymnastics with rings. climbing is all about movement, so shoulders and footwork are key to doing hard moves. he climbs MWF.
any opinions welcome.

comments on weight vests or other tactics? i've heard switching to route climbing can help (as a boulderer).


Jnclk


Mar 14, 2011, 5:57 AM
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Re: [squiros] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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squiros wrote:
i've been stuck at v9/v10 for 2 months now after 2 years of climbing. i'm already 5% body fat, some 140+ lbs at 5'10". it's frustrating since i have no weight to drop and i'm looking for that elusive v12 by the end of this year. never had an injury yet. just keep falling off the crux of v11's because i'm simply too weak.

anyone have an opinion on whether 2 months is a plateau or just impatience? was really looking to hit v12 by year's end, though.

ceebo brings an excellent point. it's better to not get injured by erring on the side of caution than to crank too hard and be gone for 2 years.

any training schedules that have broken plateaus? i've heard MWF is good, some people do 5 days/week and some do every day.
my v12 friend says never use heel hooks and if there are no obvious feet, campus. sloppy footwork means stronger hands to compensate which ultimately in the long run is better. he climbs 5 days/week.
my v13 friend says gymnastics with rings. climbing is all about movement, so shoulders and footwork are key to doing hard moves. he climbs MWF.
any opinions welcome.

comments on weight vests or other tactics? i've heard switching to route climbing can help (as a boulderer).

"Stuck" at V9/10 for two whole months...you poor thing! My vote is for is for impatience.

Sloppy footwork not only means blowing feet any shock loading elbows and shoulders, but it also means less effcient movement. This translates to unneeded energy expenditure.


(This post was edited by Jnclk on Mar 14, 2011, 6:09 AM)


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 7:43 AM
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Re: [Jnclk] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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Jnclk wrote:
squiros wrote:
[whining, possibly trolling=snipped]

"Stuck" at V9/10 for two whole months...you poor thing! My vote is for is for impatience.

No joke. V9/V10 after two years? What a fucking joke to be upset about being stuck at v9/v10 for two months. Jesus.


Hmm, I just said "no joke" and "what a fucking joke." Hmm.


sp115


Mar 14, 2011, 8:18 AM
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Re: [jt512] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
I can't wait until jt512 sees THIS post. Of course he may have read it and gouged his eyes out already.

Actually, I don't think his diet is too far off the mark. His target caloric deficit of 500 kcal/day is about what I recommend. I'd eliminate the high-fat dairy completely. If you're only consuming 1500 kcal/day, 400 of those kcals (27%) shouldn't be two 200-kcal lattes. That's a lot of fat that you don't need, and a missed opportunity to consume protein and carbohydrate that you do need. Anyone willing to eat dry kashi (read: dirt-flavored sawdust) twice twice a day, ought to be able to switch to non-fat lattes.

Similarly, substituting extra chicken (which had better be grilled, not deep fried) for the cheese on the taco would provide badly needed protein in place of unneeded fat. Obviously, the pizza has to go; and if you have to eat red meat, it should at least be very lean, but better yet would be white meat chicken or a lean fish, like halibut.

Jay

You seem to have left out Belgian beer and Pecan Sandies. I'm sure this was a simple oversight.

But seriously, is a diet like that likely to be sustainable? I mean dry Kashi 3-time a day? Really?


saint_john


Mar 14, 2011, 8:32 AM
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Re: [sp115] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
But seriously, is a diet like that likely to be sustainable? I mean dry Kashi 3-time a day? Really?

He must spend a fortune in toilet paper.


ceebo


Mar 14, 2011, 9:58 AM
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Few month does not mean that ;p.

Given the nature of bouldering, it requires top sustained effort and you get tired faster. You could spend an entire session on 1 hard problem only getting 2 moves into it every time befor a rest.

Sport routes on the other hand don't usually have a crux until some way up, at least a few moves into the route or far more mostly. In theory the sport climber will accumulate more moves done in the space of the first year. That in turn ''should'' alow for more technique growth. It is not that black and white but i think you see my point. It may be somting to look at.

I am not saying sport climbers rule.. but you cant deny that in the first year or more, alot of people have no plan and just climb as hard as they can (well atleast those who feel its how you get better.. witch is MOST ;p). Sport climbing just alows more volume to these kinds of people. Or, i may just be talking shit again Laugh i tend to do that.


flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 10:05 AM
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flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 10:20 AM
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flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 10:37 AM
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flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 10:50 AM
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gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 11:06 AM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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Your diet advice is beyond terrible.

Want to lose weight for climbing? Calculate how many calories you burn in a day (google search). Then eat less. You burn way more than 2000 calories a day if you are climbing and weight 160 pounds. You have to take into account the amount of cardio/climbing you do. If you would burn 2000 cals by sitting on the couch all day, but you also burn 1000 cals by climbing, you should eat 2500 cals a day, and you'd lose a pound a week. You don't want to high of a defecit, or you will start to eat muscle.

What should you eat? High protein, high carbs, low fat. For someone who seems so serious about climbing, you might have one of the worst diets I've ever seen.

And that line about doing cardio on an empty stomach so you are only burning fat...wow. No, that's not how it works. What you are probably doing is burning muscle as well.

Edit: As you can see, I never post on this forum. But this stuff was so bad I had to say something.


(This post was edited by gbkxbb on Mar 14, 2011, 11:08 AM)


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 11:12 AM
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Re: [sp115] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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sp115 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
I can't wait until jt512 sees THIS post. Of course he may have read it and gouged his eyes out already.

Actually, I don't think his diet is too far off the mark. His target caloric deficit of 500 kcal/day is about what I recommend. I'd eliminate the high-fat dairy completely. If you're only consuming 1500 kcal/day, 400 of those kcals (27%) shouldn't be two 200-kcal lattes. That's a lot of fat that you don't need, and a missed opportunity to consume protein and carbohydrate that you do need. Anyone willing to eat dry kashi (read: dirt-flavored sawdust) twice twice a day, ought to be able to switch to non-fat lattes.

Similarly, substituting extra chicken (which had better be grilled, not deep fried) for the cheese on the taco would provide badly needed protein in place of unneeded fat. Obviously, the pizza has to go; and if you have to eat red meat, it should at least be very lean, but better yet would be white meat chicken or a lean fish, like halibut.

Jay

You seem to have left out Belgian beer and Pecan Sandies. I'm sure this was a simple oversight.

But seriously, is a diet like that likely to be sustainable?

No.


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Re: [gbkxbb] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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gbkxbb wrote:
If you would burn 2000 cals by sitting on the couch all day, but you also burn 1000 cals by climbing . . .

Not likely, certainly not in the gym. More like 200 kcal.

Jay


Jooler


Mar 14, 2011, 11:28 AM
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Reread your first post and realized my question was irrelevent.

Still a bit unsure about your training regimen, but it seems to have worked for you.


(This post was edited by Jooler on Mar 14, 2011, 11:37 AM)


Jnclk


Mar 14, 2011, 11:38 AM
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flesh wrote:
Jnclk wrote:
taydude wrote:
That diet sounds awful. I agree on the unnecessary fat in the lattes. I'm pulling v9 pretty consistently right now and I'm ~160 lbs 5'11. I'm going to continue completely disregarding my diet and running about twice a week and I'll get back to you in 3 more years. I betcha I don't have to starve myself to get to v12.



At 5'11" and 160 lbs it certainly doesn't sound like you're in need of weight loss, but completely disregarding your diet is a great way to slow recovery and decrease performance.

Whatever works for you. Here's some stats though. I got these by asking these climbers in person FYI.

Chris Sharma, 6 1, 155-160 naked. According to him, two years ago. It seems most media says he's heavier then HE thinks he is Tongue

Three local v13 plus boulders. I know them all very well. I climb with them for years.

6 1, 162

6 2 170 (this guy looks so ripped that the other day i heard some local climbers say "he must be 190 lbs, weight doesn't matter" lol, I didn't correct them.

5 11 150

Of course they are all 4-7% body fat.

It really is magical how big of a difference 10 lbs makes, let alone 20 or 30. The body carries alot more body fat then most ppl think. When I was 15 lbs heavier, people thought I was skinny and strong. Now they just think I'm skinny, even though I'm stronger in literal terms.

I don't dispute that a lower percentage of body fat generally equates to better performance on the rock. I was responding to a different post where a climber remarked that he would "continue to completely disregard his diet". Nutrition is a key component to recovery and training. Poor nutrition can lead to delayed recovery. Too much of this can llead to injury and downtime.


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 11:42 AM
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The point is, you must take into account everything you do. Climbing probably doesn't burn 1000 cals, but hard cardio for 90 minutes can really easily.

OP's original idea of putting on a 20 lb weight vest and trying to climb, and comparing to not having on the weight vest, is a great idea, it clearly shows how easier it is to climb when you are carrying less weight...BUT...if you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound). Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day. Sorry, but on a less than pristine diet , you are burning muscle, and thus being counter productive.


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 11:49 AM
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gbkxbb wrote:
if you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

If someone loses 20 pounds total, 10 of them being muscle, do you really think that the forearms/lats/biceps are really going to make up much of that 10 lbs? Compare with giant muscle groups like the quads, especially for someone doing cardio (ideally with low resistance to minimize stressing the quads into muscle growth). Moreover, it's not necessarily how much muscle you've got, but how well it is used (but on a cellular level, as well as a general technique level).

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound). Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day. Sorry, but on a less than pristine diet , you are burning muscle, and thus being counter productive.

Experiment results are going more important than your theory here, in my opinion. There are many individual components that are lost in generalizations involved in how an average person's metabolism works. He's found that it's worked for him for sometime, and that is all that he cares about.


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 11:59 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
if you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

If someone loses 20 pounds total, 10 of them being muscle, do you really think that the forearms/lats/biceps are really going to make up much of that 10 lbs? Compare with giant muscle groups like the quads, especially for someone doing cardio (ideally with low resistance to minimize stressing the quads into muscle growth). Moreover, it's not necessarily how much muscle you've got, but how well it is used (but on a cellular level, as well as a general technique level).

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound). Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day. Sorry, but on a less than pristine diet , you are burning muscle, and thus being counter productive.

Experiment results are going more important than your theory here, in my opinion. There are many individual components that are lost in generalizations involved in how an average person's metabolism works. He's found that it's worked for him for sometime, and that is all that he cares about.

To you first quote, losing muscle is losing muscle. Its being counter productive. By losing weight slowly, you will keep more muscle.

It's up to the person, for sure. Lose weight fast, and lose muscle or lose weight slow and keep more muscle.

And too your second quote, this isn't a theory of mine, do any serious reading about 'cutting' and you will find article on top of article (with scientific evidence) that would side with me more than him. Sure, some peole are succesful in keeping muscle and losing weight by having a large calorie/day deficit...but no way does that happen with such a terrible diet. His post was giving advice to people on how to lose weight, and to the general climber, it was terrible advice.


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 12:06 PM
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gbkxbb wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
if you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

If someone loses 20 pounds total, 10 of them being muscle, do you really think that the forearms/lats/biceps are really going to make up much of that 10 lbs? Compare with giant muscle groups like the quads, especially for someone doing cardio (ideally with low resistance to minimize stressing the quads into muscle growth). Moreover, it's not necessarily how much muscle you've got, but how well it is used (but on a cellular level, as well as a general technique level).

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound). Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day. Sorry, but on a less than pristine diet , you are burning muscle, and thus being counter productive.

Experiment results are going more important than your theory here, in my opinion. There are many individual components that are lost in generalizations involved in how an average person's metabolism works. He's found that it's worked for him for sometime, and that is all that he cares about.

To you first quote, losing muscle is losing muscle. Its being counter productive. By losing weight slowly, you will keep more muscle.

No, it's not that straight forward. For example, losing muscle in your quadriceps will help one's climbing is many, many cases. It is simply not the limiting factor.

In reply to:
And too your second quote, this isn't a theory of mine, do any serious reading about 'cutting' and you will find article on top of article (with scientific evidence) that would side with me more than him. Sure, some peole are succesful in keeping muscle and losing weight by having a large calorie/day deficit...but no way does that happen with such a terrible diet. His post was giving advice to people on how to lose weight, and to the general climber, it was terrible advice.

If your issue is that he was giving advice about what works for him, then stop saying "you" when you're talking about his program, as it kinda makes me assume that you're, you know, talking about him. Obviously his results are what he wanted, so you should not tell him about how what he is doing is wrong.

Go ahead and tell him not recommend his program for others, but he has pretty clearly stated that people are individuals and that what worked for him may not work for others.


flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 12:16 PM
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jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 12:18 PM
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gbkxbb wrote:
[I]f you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

Well, he did increase his bouldering by three V-grades.

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound).

No, those figures are too high. Based on his age, height, weight, and gender, his resting metabolic rate should be around 1800 kcal.

In reply to:
Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day.

His results show that that is not the case. He lost 14 lb in 2.5 months, about 1.4 lb/wk, or about 0.19 lb/day. For ease of calculation, assume that all the weight loss was from fat*, and that 1 lb of fat contains 3500 kcal. Then his caloric deficit was 3500 × 0.187 = 655 kcal/day.

Jay

*This is plausible because bouldering is anabolic. Muscle mass accrual in the muscles exercised by bouldering could offset muscle mass loss in the other parts of the body.


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2011, 12:21 PM)


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 12:45 PM
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jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
[I]f you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

Well, he did increase his bouldering by three V-grades.

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound).

No, those figures are too high. Based on his age, height, weight, and gender, his resting metabolic rate should be around 1800 kcal.

In reply to:
Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day.

His results show that that is not the case. He lost 14 lb in 2.5 months, about 1.4 lb/wk, or about 0.19 lb/day. For ease of calculation, assume that all the weight loss was from fat*, and that 1 lb of fat contains 3500 kcal. Then his caloric deficit was 3500 × 0.187 = 655 kcal/day.

Jay

*This is plausible because bouldering is anabolic. Muscle mass accrual in the muscles exercised by bouldering could offset muscle mass loss in the other parts of the body.

I did a quick google and found an average of rougly 2300 cals for someone who is 6'0, 160 and 27 years old..(not sure how old he is)...Again, maybe you have a different calculator, but I'm pretty sure 1800 is on the low side.

You are right that bouldering is anabolic, but you aren't building muscle while you are on a calorie deficit...


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 12:48 PM
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flesh wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
if you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

If someone loses 20 pounds total, 10 of them being muscle, do you really think that the forearms/lats/biceps are really going to make up much of that 10 lbs? Compare with giant muscle groups like the quads, especially for someone doing cardio (ideally with low resistance to minimize stressing the quads into muscle growth). Moreover, it's not necessarily how much muscle you've got, but how well it is used (but on a cellular level, as well as a general technique level).

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound). Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day. Sorry, but on a less than pristine diet , you are burning muscle, and thus being counter productive.

Experiment results are going more important than your theory here, in my opinion. There are many individual components that are lost in generalizations involved in how an average person's metabolism works. He's found that it's worked for him for sometime, and that is all that he cares about.

To you first quote, losing muscle is losing muscle. Its being counter productive. By losing weight slowly, you will keep more muscle.

It's up to the person, for sure. Lose weight fast, and lose muscle or lose weight slow and keep more muscle.

And too your second quote, this isn't a theory of mine, do any serious reading about 'cutting' and you will find article on top of article (with scientific evidence) that would side with me more than him. Sure, some peole are succesful in keeping muscle and losing weight by having a large calorie/day deficit...but no way does that happen with such a terrible diet. His post was giving advice to people on how to lose weight, and to the general climber, it was terrible advice.

It seems as if our calculations are within about 10-20% of each other.... isn't this splitting hairs? I can tell you this, Losing around 14 lbs in 2.5 months I have jumped three bouldering grades in combination with power training. If I was doing it wrong, would i be getting these results? I can only assume I haven't lost muscle, if I was losing muscle, I would be able to lift less weight in the exercises I do reguraly, however I can lift more weight and I weigh less, I"m not an expert, but this leads me to believe, I haven't lost muscle. Lets say I did though, it's still working quite well? Right now, I'm psyched to be able to add 500ish calories a day to my diet once I hit my target weight, I think I'll see another big improvement there. Also, many of the best climbers I know, have pretty much the same diet.

Maybe one place we're mixed up... On climbing days, an hour before I climb and for about the first hour I climb... I'll eat/drink around 600 calories during this two hour period. Also, for example, I had a bouldering comp recently, I ate plennty of calories the night before, before the comp, and during it. On climbing days, I eat about 2-2500 calories, on non climbing days about 1300-1800. I really don't know how many calories I burn climbing. I just know that doing it this way, allows me to lose weight and have energy for climbing.

Maybe you could put together your version of a gameplan and post it so we could discuss?

Flesh...eating more on workout days completely changes my opinion of your routine...

Like others have said, it worked for you and that's all that matters. Nutrition is very much so individualistic, I was just saying some opinions that I've gathered from reading/researching/talking to peole that seem to work for the majority..In my opinion, your plan wouldn't work for the majority.. either way, ifyou are getting better at climbing, then who cares, keep rocking.


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 1:35 PM
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gbkxbb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
[I]f you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

Well, he did increase his bouldering by three V-grades.

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound).

No, those figures are too high. Based on his age, height, weight, and gender, his resting metabolic rate should be around 1800 kcal.

In reply to:
Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day.

His results show that that is not the case. He lost 14 lb in 2.5 months, about 1.4 lb/wk, or about 0.19 lb/day. For ease of calculation, assume that all the weight loss was from fat*, and that 1 lb of fat contains 3500 kcal. Then his caloric deficit was 3500 × 0.187 = 655 kcal/day.

Jay

*This is plausible because bouldering is anabolic. Muscle mass accrual in the muscles exercised by bouldering could offset muscle mass loss in the other parts of the body.

I did a quick google and found an average of rougly 2300 cals for someone who is 6'0, 160 and 27 years old..(not sure how old he is)...

That figure is too high for resting metabolic rate. That's more like total caloric expenditures, including exercise.

In reply to:
Again, maybe you have a different calculator . . .

I used the Mifflin equation, which using your parameter values, gives an RMR of 1740 kcal/day. the Mifflin equation is pretty much the standard equation used in nutritional science when body composition is not taken into account.

In reply to:
...but I'm pretty sure 1800 is on the low side.

Well, I'm pretty sure it's the conditional mean from a regression study of 500 subjects published in 1990.

In reply to:
You are right that bouldering is anabolic, but you aren't building muscle while you are on a calorie deficit...

Yes, you can, actually.

Jay


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 2:25 PM
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jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
[I]f you drop 20 pounds, and 10 pounds is muscle, you won't see that big of a difference...you will have less strength and less weight, and could easily end up right where you started...

Well, he did increase his bouldering by three V-grades.

In reply to:
Eating 1800 cals a day isn't good. At 160 pounds, you burn between 1920 and 2240 cals by sitting on your butt all day (12-14 cals per pound).

No, those figures are too high. Based on his age, height, weight, and gender, his resting metabolic rate should be around 1800 kcal.

In reply to:
Mix in cardio and you could easily have a deficit of over 1000 cals per day.

His results show that that is not the case. He lost 14 lb in 2.5 months, about 1.4 lb/wk, or about 0.19 lb/day. For ease of calculation, assume that all the weight loss was from fat*, and that 1 lb of fat contains 3500 kcal. Then his caloric deficit was 3500 × 0.187 = 655 kcal/day.

Jay

*This is plausible because bouldering is anabolic. Muscle mass accrual in the muscles exercised by bouldering could offset muscle mass loss in the other parts of the body.

I did a quick google and found an average of rougly 2300 cals for someone who is 6'0, 160 and 27 years old..(not sure how old he is)...

That figure is too high for resting metabolic rate. That's more like total caloric expenditures, including exercise.

In reply to:
Again, maybe you have a different calculator . . .

I used the Mifflin equation, which using your parameter values, gives an RMR of 1740 kcal/day. the Mifflin equation is pretty much the standard equation used in nutritional science when body composition is not taken into account.

In reply to:
...but I'm pretty sure 1800 is on the low side.

Well, I'm pretty sure it's the conditional mean from a regression study of 500 subjects published in 1990.

In reply to:
You are right that bouldering is anabolic, but you aren't building muscle while you are on a calorie deficit...

Yes, you can, actually.

Jay

Now I'll admit that there's no way to know for sure how much someone burns in a day from using a calculator, but don't sit here and post like you are 100% correct. See this link, university backed sources from 2002 and it shows him needing 2500+ cals, and that's resting burn.

And for the most part, 'athletes' do not create muscle while losing fat. It gets harder and harder to put on muscle with the more muscle you have and the less fat you have...for a lean, in shape climber to think he can put on muscle and lose fat is just crazy talk...Sure, there are people who have put on muscle while losing fat, and there have been people who couldn't do it...generally speaking, its not happening. If you disagree, please, go to a gym and talk to the 10 most in shape guys...


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 2:29 PM
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gbkxbb wrote:
See this link, university backed sources from 2002 and it shows him needing 2500+ cals, and that's resting burn.

What link?

In reply to:
And for the most part, 'athletes' do not create muscle while losing fat. It gets harder and harder to put on muscle with the more muscle you have and the less fat you have...for a lean, in shape climber to think he can put on muscle and lose fat is just crazy talk...Sure, there are people who have put on muscle while losing fat, and there have been people who couldn't do it...generally speaking, its not happening. If you disagree, please, go to a gym and talk to the 10 most in shape guys...

I didn't say anything about the "for the most part," whatever that is even supposed to mean. I said that you certainly can gain muscle while dieting, and my source for this is well-controlled studies published in peer review journals, not "the 10 most in shape guys" in the gym.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2011, 2:32 PM)


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 2:32 PM
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http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/calories-burned

My fault.

What source shows high end atheletes creating significant amounts of muscle mass while at extreme calorie deficits and eating high fat diets?


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 2:38 PM
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gbkxbb wrote:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/calories-burned

One look at that web pages shows that, just I suggested up-thread, your source is not calculating resting metabolic rate. It's calculating total energy expenditures. Your claim was that the OP would burn 2300 kcal just sitting around, which is essentially the definition of RMR, but that's not what that calculator purports to calculate.

In reply to:
What source shows high end atheletes creating significant amounts of muscle mass while at extreme calorie deficits and eating high fat diets?

I don't know of any such studies, but such studies wouldn't be applicable to the OP anyway, since his caloric deficit was moderate and his diet not high fat.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2011, 2:39 PM)


gbkxbb


Mar 14, 2011, 2:46 PM
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jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/calories-burned

One look at that web pages shows that, just I suggested up-thread, your source is not calculating resting metabolic rate. It's calculating total energy expenditures. Your claim was that the OP would burn 2300 kcal just sitting around, which is essentially the definition of RMR, but that's not what that calculator purports to calculate.

In reply to:
What source shows high end atheletes creating significant amounts of muscle mass while at extreme calorie deficits and eating high fat diets?

I don't know of any such studies, but such studies wouldn't be applicable to the OP anyway, since his caloric deficit was moderate and his diet not high fat.

Jay

The website says 2500 cals per day, sedentary lifestyle...meaning he burns 2500 cals a day by working an office job, not taking into account any exercise he might do at night or climbing or running. If he's eating 1800 cals a day, he's already -700 cals. Then add in work outs and its extreme amounts...

You can't show me a study of a high end athelete eating an average diet of -500 cals and gaining significant muscle mass...it doesn't happen...Go speak to any nutritionalist or trainer or gym rat, they will tell you the same. And you sure aren't gaining muscle mass at a deficit of 1700 cals on days he does heavy cardio.


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 3:04 PM
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Re: [gbkxbb] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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gbkxbb wrote:
The website says 2500 cals per day, sedentary lifestyle...meaning he burns 2500 cals a day by working an office job, not taking into account any exercise he might do at night or climbing or running. If he's eating 1800 cals a day, he's already -700 cals. Then add in work outs and its extreme amounts...

FWIW, it tells me my maintenance calories is at least 500 more than I eat on an average day. Probably more like 600-700 calories more than I eat on an average day.


jt512


Mar 14, 2011, 3:16 PM
Post #43 of 56 (3947 views)
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Re: [gbkxbb] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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gbkxbb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/calories-burned

One look at that web pages shows that, just I suggested up-thread, your source is not calculating resting metabolic rate. It's calculating total energy expenditures. Your claim was that the OP would burn 2300 kcal just sitting around, which is essentially the definition of RMR, but that's not what that calculator purports to calculate.

In reply to:
What source shows high end atheletes creating significant amounts of muscle mass while at extreme calorie deficits and eating high fat diets?

I don't know of any such studies, but such studies wouldn't be applicable to the OP anyway, since his caloric deficit was moderate and his diet not high fat.

Jay

The website says 2500 cals per day, sedentary lifestyle...meaning he burns 2500 cals a day by working an office job, not taking into account any exercise he might do at night or climbing or running. If he's eating 1800 cals a day, he's already -700 cals. Then add in work outs and its extreme amounts...

You're arguing theory in the face of empirical evidence. Even the Mifflin equation has "error bars" of about ±20%. Your website, which factors in broad, ill-defined categories like "sedentary lifestyle," will be even less precise.

The OP lost 1.4 lb/wk, which is in the range of 1–1.5 lb/wk recommended for a weight loss target by just about everyone. This is de facto evidence that his caloric deficit was moderate. As I already calculated, it was likely in the neighborhood 600 kcal/day, which is fine.

In reply to:
You can't show me a study of a high end athelete eating an average diet of -500 cals and gaining significant muscle mass...it doesn't happen...Go speak to any nutritionalist or trainer or gym rat, they will tell you the same.

I am a nutritionist. I don't know what you think is so special about "high end athletes." If a high-end athlete has the fat reserves, he can gain muscle mass with a moderate daily caloric deficit. If he doesn't, he can't. The OP lost 14 lb over 2.5 months. He probably did lose muscle mass in the non-bouldering muscles—ie, the legs—and he probably gained muscle mass in the bouldering muscles, both good outcomes for improving your bouldering performance, which he did, significantly. There is absolutely nothing biologically implausible about this.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2011, 3:18 PM)


jbone


Mar 14, 2011, 3:17 PM
Post #44 of 56 (3940 views)
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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All the makings of a textbook "Puller."

Diet, Exercise, training = all words you use when your trying to "Pull."

There are those who "Pull" themselves up rock and the rest who "Climb" the rock.

The irony is when people who "pull" themselves up a rock then call themselves "Rock-Climbers."

FYI.. Climbing > Pulling


flesh


Mar 14, 2011, 3:39 PM
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jbone


Mar 14, 2011, 3:57 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
Also, according to you, most top climbers are "pullers". .

Top climbers on your lists perhaps...

I know many of those climbers you refer too and they have heard me say all of this long before you knew what a campus board was.

When your referring to any climbing with V-whatever/V-whatever and who you can climb V-whatever too, your pretty much begging to be recognized for repeating what has already been done.

When you find "new" climbing/bouldering where you have been able to decipher fun and challenging sequences that had never been done before you, then you will have reason to spray.


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 14, 2011, 4:32 PM
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Re: [jbone] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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This thread makes me glad that I'm a trad climber: I eat as much as I want. when I want and never think about a calorie. And, I don't worry about campus board injuries.

Cheers,
Rob.calm


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 5:51 PM
Post #48 of 56 (3925 views)
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Re: [jbone] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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jbone wrote:
flesh wrote:
Also, according to you, most top climbers are "pullers". .

Top climbers on your lists perhaps...

I know many of those climbers you refer too and they have heard me say all of this long before you knew what a campus board was.

When your referring to any climbing with V-whatever/V-whatever and who you can climb V-whatever too, your pretty much begging to be recognized for repeating what has already been done.

When you find "new" climbing/bouldering where you have been able to decipher fun and challenging sequences that had never been done before you, then you will have reason to spray.
Jbone is J-lous.


theguy


Mar 14, 2011, 8:55 PM
Post #49 of 56 (3897 views)
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Re: [jt512] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I am a nutritionist.

Changed careers, or just a little moon-lighting on the side?

jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
jt512 - what are you...a freakin' lawyer.

No, a freakin' nutritional epidemiologist.

-Jay


spikeddem


Mar 14, 2011, 8:58 PM
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Re: [theguy] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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theguy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I am a nutritionist.

Changed careers, or just a little moon-lighting on the side?

jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
jt512 - what are you...a freakin' lawyer.

No, a freakin' nutritional epidemiologist.

-Jay

*Facepalm*


ceebo


Mar 15, 2011, 7:13 AM
Post #51 of 56 (1563 views)
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Re: [robdotcalm] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
This thread makes me glad that I'm a trad climber: I eat as much as I want. when I want and never think about a calorie. And, I don't worry about campus board injuries.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I don't mean this to come across insulting, but what are you talking about?. You can eat as much as you want for any form of climbing and put in the same effort, or lack of. Perhaps you did not mean it in such a way, but it sounded like you are trying to say trad climbers don't have to train as hard as others.

Speaking of trad. I met a guy once and one of his many stories, he took a zip (i think is the right term). He came crashing into the wall and in his own words ''My thumb exploded''. That atleast explained why he had 1 thumb.. i did not have to stomach to ask why he had no front teeth.

But my personal theory is that somewhere in the world is a opportunist campus board, and now it has teeth to eat people.


spikeddem


Mar 15, 2011, 7:15 AM
Post #52 of 56 (1560 views)
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Re: [ceebo] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
This thread makes me glad that I'm a trad climber: I eat as much as I want. when I want and never think about a calorie. And, I don't worry about campus board injuries.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I don't mean this to come across insulting, but what are you talking about?. You can eat as much as you want for any form of climbing and put in the same effort, or lack of. Perhaps you did not mean it in such a way, but it sounded like you are trying to say trad climbers don't have to train as hard as others.

Speaking of trad. I met a guy once and one of his many stories, he took a zip (i think is the right term). He came crashing into the wall and in his own words ''My thumb exploded''. That atleast explained why he had 1 thumb.. i did not have to stomach to ask why he had no front teeth.

But my personal theory is that somewhere in the world is a opportunist campus board, and now it has teeth to eat people.
Yeah, Rob, make sure not to zip. You crazy trad climbing nutters.


ceebo


Mar 15, 2011, 7:18 AM
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Re: [ceebo] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
robdotcalm wrote:
This thread makes me glad that I'm a trad climber: I eat as much as I want. when I want and never think about a calorie. And, I don't worry about campus board injuries.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

I don't mean this to come across insulting, but what are you talking about?. You can eat as much as you want for any form of climbing and put in the same effort, or lack of. Perhaps you did not mean it in such a way, but it sounded like you are trying to say trad climbers don't have to train as hard as others.

Speaking of trad. I met a guy once and one of his many stories, he took a zip (i think is the right term). He came crashing into the wall and in his own words ''My thumb exploded''. That atleast explained why he had 1 thumb.. i did not have to stomach to ask why he had no front teeth.

But my personal theory is that somewhere in the world is a opportunist campus board, and now it has teeth to eat people.

Why did i say that Unsure they have enough bad rep withought children runing out of climbing centres ''its trying to eat me!!!!!''.


lazymonkey


Mar 26, 2011, 12:35 AM
Post #54 of 56 (1458 views)
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Re: [gbkxbb] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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lol @ never use heelhooks..my feelings are the opposite


sp00ki


Apr 8, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Re: [flesh] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
I plan on getting to 155 lbs and stopping there.
Once you hit your goal weight and start eating more calories, assuming you continue with focused training, your performance is going to hit a huge spike.
Based on reading your description, it's certain that a percentage of your weight loss is coming from muscle tissue and-- most importantly-- the rate of muscle growth isn't as optimal as it could be (both due catabolization, among other things).

I'd be curious to hear how you're doing two months after you hit 155 (assuming you maintain the weight and continue training).


(This post was edited by sp00ki on Apr 8, 2011, 1:12 PM)


sp00ki


Apr 8, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Re: [jt512] V8/v9 plateau ends after 9years. V12 and how i did it. [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
jt512 wrote:
gbkxbb wrote:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/calories-burned

One look at that web pages shows that, just I suggested up-thread, your source is not calculating resting metabolic rate. It's calculating total energy expenditures. Your claim was that the OP would burn 2300 kcal just sitting around, which is essentially the definition of RMR, but that's not what that calculator purports to calculate.

In reply to:
What source shows high end atheletes creating significant amounts of muscle mass while at extreme calorie deficits and eating high fat diets?

I don't know of any such studies, but such studies wouldn't be applicable to the OP anyway, since his caloric deficit was moderate and his diet not high fat.

Jay

The website says 2500 cals per day, sedentary lifestyle...meaning he burns 2500 cals a day by working an office job, not taking into account any exercise he might do at night or climbing or running. If he's eating 1800 cals a day, he's already -700 cals. Then add in work outs and its extreme amounts...

You're arguing theory in the face of empirical evidence. Even the Mifflin equation has "error bars" of about ±20%. Your website, which factors in broad, ill-defined categories like "sedentary lifestyle," will be even less precise.

The OP lost 1.4 lb/wk, which is in the range of 1–1.5 lb/wk recommended for a weight loss target by just about everyone. This is de facto evidence that his caloric deficit was moderate. As I already calculated, it was likely in the neighborhood 600 kcal/day, which is fine.

In reply to:
You can't show me a study of a high end athelete eating an average diet of -500 cals and gaining significant muscle mass...it doesn't happen...Go speak to any nutritionalist or trainer or gym rat, they will tell you the same.

I am a nutritionist. I don't know what you think is so special about "high end athletes." If a high-end athlete has the fat reserves, he can gain muscle mass with a moderate daily caloric deficit. If he doesn't, he can't. The OP lost 14 lb over 2.5 months. He probably did lose muscle mass in the non-bouldering muscles—ie, the legs—and he probably gained muscle mass in the bouldering muscles, both good outcomes for improving your bouldering performance, which he did, significantly. There is absolutely nothing biologically implausible about this.

Jay

I probably shouldn't answer this yet, as i'm not done with the thread (and i'm pretty sure you guys have stopped reading it by now), but i think what gbkxbb means (or at least what he should mean) is that muscle growth while on a calorie restricted diet (specifically one with calorie type ratios as fuzzy or non-existent as flesh's) is HAMPERED. Muscle growth will obviously occur if sufficient carbohydrates/proteins are consumed in conjunction with training, but things like catabolization will certainly slow that progress.
It's apparent that the combination of lower oppositional forces (lower bmi) and strength increase (albeit less than optimal) is far more significant than this point, however, and why flesh is making gains despite eating less.
You obviously know that, and gbkxbb is probably slightly off in his understanding, but i figured a bit of clarification wouldn't hurt.


(This post was edited by sp00ki on Apr 8, 2011, 1:16 PM)


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