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Nold
May 12, 2011, 5:47 PM
Post #51 of 77
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In reply to: Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap (especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay
Good point. I will never rap down again.
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bearbreeder
May 12, 2011, 5:52 PM
Post #52 of 77
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kachoong wrote: [ So you're saying you would prefer to put your life in the hands of someone else than yourself? If so, that's retarded.
your life is already in their hands ... if you think otherwise thats retarded ...
id rather be on belay when setting up for a lower than not ...
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sandstoned
May 12, 2011, 6:00 PM
Post #53 of 77
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jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay
Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.)
This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about.
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boymeetsrock
May 12, 2011, 6:06 PM
Post #54 of 77
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jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay
Based on the (increasing) number of accidents we are seeing, as in the OP, the 'less dangerous' argument is starting to loose some serious credibility.
Also, overhanging terrain excluded, I bet I can set up the rappel and clean the route just as fast as you can set up the lower off and clean the route. (Unless, of course, you are TR'ing directly through the chains.)
I understand that you have a pretty select group of people you climb with who are very competent. I'd also guess that you typically climb at a small number of very familiar crags. I don't have those luxuries so, as Kachoong noted, I'd rather have my life in my own hands.
(Again, steeply overhanging terrain excluded from the above argument.)
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jt512
May 12, 2011, 6:07 PM
Post #55 of 77
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sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about.
No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags.
Jay
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redlude97
May 12, 2011, 6:10 PM
Post #56 of 77
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boymeetsrock wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Also, overhanging terrain excluded, I bet I can set up the rappel and clean the route just as fast as you can set up the lower off and clean the route. (Unless, of course, you are TR'ing directly through the chains.)
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boymeetsrock
May 12, 2011, 6:24 PM
Post #57 of 77
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redlude97 wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Also, overhanging terrain excluded, I bet I can set up the rappel and clean the route just as fast as you can set up the lower off and clean the route. (Unless, of course, you are TR'ing directly through the chains.) I don't know how you could possibly set up a rappel faster than I can push a bight through, tie a fig8, clip and lower, but sure ok.
Ok, maybe I exaggerated a little. But it's a single pitch climb. How long could it take to get the tail of the rope to the ground so I can rappel? What are we talking, the difference of 30 seconds to 2 minutes? Man, you just saved me the walking time to the next route!
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redlude97
May 12, 2011, 6:30 PM
Post #58 of 77
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boymeetsrock wrote: redlude97 wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Also, overhanging terrain excluded, I bet I can set up the rappel and clean the route just as fast as you can set up the lower off and clean the route. (Unless, of course, you are TR'ing directly through the chains.) I don't know how you could possibly set up a rappel faster than I can push a bight through, tie a fig8, clip and lower, but sure ok. Ok, maybe I exaggerated a little. But it's a single pitch climb. How long could it take to get the tail of the rope to the ground so I can rappel? What are we talking, the difference of 30 seconds to 2 minutes? Man, you just saved me the walking time to the next route!
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sandstoned
May 12, 2011, 6:31 PM
Post #59 of 77
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jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay
Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though...
I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before...
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jt512
May 12, 2011, 6:56 PM
Post #60 of 77
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sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though... I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before...
I'm not going to make it that easy for you. It would be tedious to do, but I can write a list of route equippers who I've either spoken with or who have put in writing in their guidebooks that the anchors are intended for lowering. To that list I can add another list of major sport climbing venues where essentially everybody lowers. I have been to a hundred or so sport climbing areas, and at none of them is rappelling considered routine (although there are a lot of n00bs who think it is).
You, on the other hand, have implied that there are sport crags where the equippers intend for everyone to rappel. So, which areas and which equippers? You need only name one or two.
Jay
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sandstoned
May 12, 2011, 7:41 PM
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jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though... I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before... I'm not going to make it that easy for you. It would be tedious to do, but I can write a list of route equippers who I've either spoken with or who have put in writing in their guidebooks that the anchors are intended for lowering. To that list I can add another list of major sport climbing venues where essentially everybody lowers. I have been to a hundred or so sport climbing areas, and at none of them is rappelling considered routine (although there are a lot of n00bs who think it is). You, on the other hand, have implied that there are sport crags where the equippers intend for everyone to rappel. So, which areas and which equippers? You need only name one or two. Jay
I know that it is difficult for you to not be condescending with your expansive knowledge base, and because I appreciate your effort I will indulge you; however, because this arguement is old, tired, and subjective, my effort will be minimal.
Example 1
Vertical Heartland, the guibook for SoIll climbing, written by a well known area bolter and first ascensionist, explicitly states that (and I paraphrase) 'the only time the rope should be weighted directly on the anchor chain/shut is when the last person in the party sets up for rappel. If everyone did this the only wear on the anchor would be from an unweighted rope being pulled through the anchor after each party is finished with the route.' While this is not always practical in all areas on all routes, if every party did this it would certianly limit the amount of wear and tear on the anchors of moderate sport climbs.
Example 2
Massacre Rocks, ID is home to some really fine basalt sport climbing that came about as a result of the bolting ban at nearby City of Rocks some years ago. Most of the routes are well bolted with quality hardwear, with the exception of the anchors. Many anchors are some strange combination of beefy bolts, oval 'biners, and drilled steel straps. These anchors can not be easily serviced. Because of the sandy nature of the area many biners are almost completely worn through, and the setup makes it impossible to replace the biner without removing the anchor bolt. The result is that many of the moderate routes have rickety, rusty, worn out, dangerous anchors that must be replaced due to repeated lowering and top roping. Had the tactics mentioned in my previous example been adopted at Massacre Rocks, the anchors would not be in such rough shape. I doubt these conditions were the bolters intention.
I do not think you know as much as you think you do.
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jt512
May 12, 2011, 7:56 PM
Post #62 of 77
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sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though... I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before... I'm not going to make it that easy for you. It would be tedious to do, but I can write a list of route equippers who I've either spoken with or who have put in writing in their guidebooks that the anchors are intended for lowering. To that list I can add another list of major sport climbing venues where essentially everybody lowers. I have been to a hundred or so sport climbing areas, and at none of them is rappelling considered routine (although there are a lot of n00bs who think it is). You, on the other hand, have implied that there are sport crags where the equippers intend for everyone to rappel. So, which areas and which equippers? You need only name one or two. Jay I know that it is difficult for you to not be condescending with your expansive knowledge base, and because I appreciate your effort I will indulge you; however, because this arguement is old, tired, and subjective, my effort will be minimal. Example 1 Vertical Heartland, the guibook for SoIll climbing, written by a well known area bolter and first ascensionist, explicitly states that (and I paraphrase) 'the only time the rope should be weighted directly on the anchor chain/shut is when the last person in the party sets up for rappel. If everyone did this the only wear on the anchor would be from an unweighted rope being pulled through the anchor after each party is finished with the route.' While this is not always practical in all areas on all routes, if every party did this it would certianly limit the amount of wear and tear on the anchors of moderate sport climbs. Example 2 Massacre Rocks, ID is home to some really fine basalt sport climbing that came about as a result of the bolting ban at nearby City of Rocks some years ago. Most of the routes are well bolted with quality hardwear, with the exception of the anchors. Many anchors are some strange combination of beefy bolts, oval 'biners, and drilled steel straps. These anchors can not be easily serviced. Because of the sandy nature of the area many biners are almost completely worn through, and the setup makes it impossible to replace the biner without removing the anchor bolt. The result is that many of the moderate routes have rickety, rusty, worn out, dangerous anchors that must be replaced due to repeated lowering and top roping. Had the tactics mentioned in my previous example been adopted at Massacre Rocks, the anchors would not be in such rough shape. I doubt these conditions were the bolters intention. I do not think you know as much as you think you do.
Yes, I actually do know as much as I think I do, thank you. I even know that there are exceptions to the rule, and I think that such exceptions need not be explicitly mentioned; otherwise, we could hardly write a single sentence without an explicit disclaimer. When in Pocatello, do as the Pocatellans do. As always, local custom trumps the general rule. But sport crags where you are expected to rappel are an extremely small minority. I've climbed at at least 100 sport crags over the past 20 years, and have yet to visit a single one where rappelling is the norm. I'm sure you'll disagree, but it is safe to say that when visiting a sport crag for the first time, you can feel free to lower from the anchors when cleaning; you will not be expected to rappel.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on May 12, 2011, 7:57 PM)
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sandstoned
May 12, 2011, 8:07 PM
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jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though... I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before... I'm not going to make it that easy for you. It would be tedious to do, but I can write a list of route equippers who I've either spoken with or who have put in writing in their guidebooks that the anchors are intended for lowering. To that list I can add another list of major sport climbing venues where essentially everybody lowers. I have been to a hundred or so sport climbing areas, and at none of them is rappelling considered routine (although there are a lot of n00bs who think it is). You, on the other hand, have implied that there are sport crags where the equippers intend for everyone to rappel. So, which areas and which equippers? You need only name one or two. Jay I know that it is difficult for you to not be condescending with your expansive knowledge base, and because I appreciate your effort I will indulge you; however, because this arguement is old, tired, and subjective, my effort will be minimal. Example 1 Vertical Heartland, the guibook for SoIll climbing, written by a well known area bolter and first ascensionist, explicitly states that (and I paraphrase) 'the only time the rope should be weighted directly on the anchor chain/shut is when the last person in the party sets up for rappel. If everyone did this the only wear on the anchor would be from an unweighted rope being pulled through the anchor after each party is finished with the route.' While this is not always practical in all areas on all routes, if every party did this it would certianly limit the amount of wear and tear on the anchors of moderate sport climbs. Example 2 Massacre Rocks, ID is home to some really fine basalt sport climbing that came about as a result of the bolting ban at nearby City of Rocks some years ago. Most of the routes are well bolted with quality hardwear, with the exception of the anchors. Many anchors are some strange combination of beefy bolts, oval 'biners, and drilled steel straps. These anchors can not be easily serviced. Because of the sandy nature of the area many biners are almost completely worn through, and the setup makes it impossible to replace the biner without removing the anchor bolt. The result is that many of the moderate routes have rickety, rusty, worn out, dangerous anchors that must be replaced due to repeated lowering and top roping. Had the tactics mentioned in my previous example been adopted at Massacre Rocks, the anchors would not be in such rough shape. I doubt these conditions were the bolters intention. I do not think you know as much as you think you do. Yes, I actually do know as much as I think I do, thank you. I even know that there are exceptions to the rule, and I think that such exceptions need not be explicitly mentioned; otherwise, we could hardly write a single sentence without an explicit disclaimer. When in Pocatello, do as the Pocatellans do. As always, local custom trumps the general rule. But sport crags where you are expected to rappel are an extremely small minority. I've climbed at at least 100 sport crags over the past 20 years, and have yet to visit a single one where rappelling is the norm. I'm sure you'll disagree, but it is safe to say that when visiting a sport crag for the first time, you can feel free to lower from the anchors when cleaning; you will not be expected to rappel. Jay
Then why the hell did you ask for them?
I knew this was a bad idea.
I am done here.
ps- your signature is spot-on, I dislike you already.
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jt512
May 12, 2011, 8:24 PM
Post #64 of 77
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sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: sandstoned wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Is that right? (Answer: No, it is not.) This is one person's guess as to what he thinks he knows about the intentions of a very large and diverse group of people and places, many of which he knows nothing about. No, it is not a guess. This is a guess: You're a trad climber in an isolated state, who has done little if any sport climbing at major sport climbing crags. Jay Again, a very poor guess. The 'climbs trad in an isolated state' part was right though... I was going to argue with you, but I've read your diatribe before... I'm not going to make it that easy for you. It would be tedious to do, but I can write a list of route equippers who I've either spoken with or who have put in writing in their guidebooks that the anchors are intended for lowering. To that list I can add another list of major sport climbing venues where essentially everybody lowers. I have been to a hundred or so sport climbing areas, and at none of them is rappelling considered routine (although there are a lot of n00bs who think it is). You, on the other hand, have implied that there are sport crags where the equippers intend for everyone to rappel. So, which areas and which equippers? You need only name one or two. Jay I know that it is difficult for you to not be condescending with your expansive knowledge base, and because I appreciate your effort I will indulge you; however, because this arguement is old, tired, and subjective, my effort will be minimal. Example 1 Vertical Heartland, the guibook for SoIll climbing, written by a well known area bolter and first ascensionist, explicitly states that (and I paraphrase) 'the only time the rope should be weighted directly on the anchor chain/shut is when the last person in the party sets up for rappel. If everyone did this the only wear on the anchor would be from an unweighted rope being pulled through the anchor after each party is finished with the route.' While this is not always practical in all areas on all routes, if every party did this it would certianly limit the amount of wear and tear on the anchors of moderate sport climbs. Example 2 Massacre Rocks, ID is home to some really fine basalt sport climbing that came about as a result of the bolting ban at nearby City of Rocks some years ago. Most of the routes are well bolted with quality hardwear, with the exception of the anchors. Many anchors are some strange combination of beefy bolts, oval 'biners, and drilled steel straps. These anchors can not be easily serviced. Because of the sandy nature of the area many biners are almost completely worn through, and the setup makes it impossible to replace the biner without removing the anchor bolt. The result is that many of the moderate routes have rickety, rusty, worn out, dangerous anchors that must be replaced due to repeated lowering and top roping. Had the tactics mentioned in my previous example been adopted at Massacre Rocks, the anchors would not be in such rough shape. I doubt these conditions were the bolters intention. I do not think you know as much as you think you do. Yes, I actually do know as much as I think I do, thank you. I even know that there are exceptions to the rule, and I think that such exceptions need not be explicitly mentioned; otherwise, we could hardly write a single sentence without an explicit disclaimer. When in Pocatello, do as the Pocatellans do. As always, local custom trumps the general rule. But sport crags where you are expected to rappel are an extremely small minority. I've climbed at at least 100 sport crags over the past 20 years, and have yet to visit a single one where rappelling is the norm. I'm sure you'll disagree, but it is safe to say that when visiting a sport crag for the first time, you can feel free to lower from the anchors when cleaning; you will not be expected to rappel. Jay Then why the hell did you ask for them? I knew this was a bad idea. I am done here. ps- your signature is spot-on, I dislike you already.
You're right. Perhaps it was pointless to ask, since there never was a question that there are a few isolated exceptions. What I disagreed with in the first place was your assertion that I was making "a guess" when, in fact, I was not.
Jay
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Toast_in_the_Machine
May 12, 2011, 8:27 PM
Post #65 of 77
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jt512 wrote: Dogs can learn hundreds to thousands of words, putting them well ahead of the average rc.com user. Too bad they can't type.
At this point I'm not convinced that many posts here are not created by dogs using one of these:
http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/...translator-24-07-09/
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enigma
May 18, 2011, 9:46 AM
Post #66 of 77
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jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay
Is this discussion somewhat relevant as to what may have happened with David Pinegar at Jtree.?
(This post was edited by enigma on May 18, 2011, 10:06 AM)
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justroberto
May 26, 2011, 12:33 AM
Post #67 of 77
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redlude97 wrote: boymeetsrock wrote: jt512 wrote: Nold wrote: In reply to: Saves them for what? Jay From unnecessary wear. If everyone on a busy route just lowered, it would cause more wear on the anchors than rapping down. This is what I was told, otherwise why even bother to rap down?Exactly. It's more dangerous (especially for the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to rap), more time consuming, and, on steep routes, impractical to impossible to do. So why bother? It does save some wear on your rope and the anchors. But to most sport climbers, it's worth replacing their rope more often for the convenience; and no one, including the route equippers, expect anyone to rap ( especially the very climbers—i.e., beginners—who think they're supposed to). They put the anchors there for you to lower from while cleaning. Jay Also, overhanging terrain excluded, I bet I can set up the rappel and clean the route just as fast as you can set up the lower off and clean the route. (Unless, of course, you are TR'ing directly through the chains.) I don't know how you could possibly set up a rappel faster than I can push a bight through, tie a fig8, clip and lower, but sure ok.
On the route in question, I'll guarantee that you're wrong.
ERock is traditional area, and more often than not, the anchor is merely two bolts, no chains, no rap rings, etc. The standard at every station is to rap, and this accident happened partially because the climber in question either didn't know how to do so or didn't care to follow the local tradition.
If you can't communicate with your partner, it is ultimately your own, not his or her, responsibility to keep yourself safe.
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Armadillo12
Sep 11, 2011, 1:52 AM
Post #68 of 77
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Bottom line in climbing as well as many other disciplines in life is you are responsible for you own outcome. Be it the partner you select, the equipment you use or the tactics you employ.
Learn how to clean and rap effectively and you wont be slowing anyone down. I bet you don't hear "Hurry up Hans!"
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essay
Sep 11, 2011, 4:34 AM
Post #69 of 77
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This situation could hve been prevented with fixed gear. One more example of how PD's could have saved a life.
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Bats
Sep 11, 2011, 2:11 PM
Post #70 of 77
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You don't put fixed gear on a crack. Roberto is correct on the anchoring system of consisting of only two bolts at the top. I cleaned this route about a week after the accident. One of the guides that gave assistances in rescue was talking to me, from about 75 yards away on Motorboat Rock. I am now extra careful, because of it. Most Erock's routes don't have walk offs and most of the anchoring systems is just 2 bolt protections. I know I am not running my rope through to be lowered, chance of rope being cut is great. I am rappelling down.
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essay
Sep 11, 2011, 3:08 PM
Post #71 of 77
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Bats wrote: You don't put fixed gear on a crack. Roberto is correct on the anchoring system of consisting of only two bolts at the top. I cleaned this route about a week after the accident. One of the guides that gave assistances in rescue was talking to me, from about 75 yards away on Motorboat Rock. I am now extra careful, because of it. Most Erock's routes don't have walk offs and most of the anchoring systems is just 2 bolt protections. I know I am not running my rope through to be lowered, chance of rope being cut is great. I am rappelling down.
Listen friend, I know you are from texas but I am gonna mess with you a little. You absolutly can leave fixed gear on the anchors, then you won't have to be extra careful and risk your precious life. There is in fact fixed gear on anchors all over the world, trad and sport. Because of your super duper great ethics of "no gear near a crack" someone is now in the hospital, get it. It doesn't have to be this way. What were you fixing off of? Bolts, wow, those are pretty fixed if you ask me. All one needs to do is put rap rings, quick clips, a steel biner, or perhaps a combination of those thing to the already fixed bolt and now you have a fixed anchor that takes two seconds to righ. Clip the rope through those snap links and lower away. I know this idea scares t-rads, but trust me, everyone is doing it, it's super safe, and you can even do it with a crack. (that's what she said). Just because someone showed you how to act stupid doesn't mean you have to continue acting that way.
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Bats
Sep 11, 2011, 3:33 PM
Post #72 of 77
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In reply to: everyone is doing it
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essay
Sep 11, 2011, 3:46 PM
Post #73 of 77
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Bats wrote: In reply to: everyone is doing it Wow...this I didn't know. Thank you for enlighten me. The next time I am at Yosemite, I will be looking for them.
It's a pretty long stretch comparing your little choss pile to Yosemite, but yes, they have fixed gear in Yosemite. Bolts, pitons, slings, ropes, etc. In fact, Yosemite probably has more fixed gear than most areas due to they type of climbing that it is. It may not have bail biners at every "fixed" station but that is because oftentimes you can't bail from those routes.
The point is that fixed quick links or biners could have saved the rescue crew some work and the climber some pain. Furthermore, they are standard on many many routes, trad and sport, across the world, where safety and convenience are paramount. Probably time to go get you some so you don't have to waste so much time being careful over something that doesn't need to be.
Ps, haven't you ever seen the big fixed chain up half dome? See it's the rage!
(This post was edited by essay on Sep 11, 2011, 3:52 PM)
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Bats
Sep 11, 2011, 5:50 PM
Post #74 of 77
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In reply to: The point is that fixed quick links or biners could have saved the rescue crew some work and the climber some pain. Furthermore, they are standard on many many routes, trad and sport, across the world, where safety and convenience are paramount. Probably time to go get you some so you don't have to waste so much time being careful over something that doesn't need to be.
No, they would not help rescuers. Obviously,you have no clue on what you are talking about Grass Crack at Enchanted Rock. The anchors would not help rescue crews. Unless rescue crews scramble to the top and then rappel down 2 pitches, it still would take the same amount of time. They went in by foot and then had a helicopter basket to lift the injured climber. In fact it’s just a pure miracle; because of the initial fall was head first. A broken back would normally happen in this circumstance, but it didn’t and that climber is still able to walk.
Yes I am quite aware of the fixed bolts on Half Dome. Some of them have been there over 40yrs. They are pure run outs, just like Erock. Many Erock climbers use our little choss pile to practice then they run off to bigger areas to climb in. And just like Yosemite and Erock, there are oppositions against anything that is fixed. Climbers should be aware of the area that they are climbing in, good communications, and be ready for the unexpected situations.
Now go remember it is Patriot Day...
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essay
Sep 11, 2011, 6:39 PM
Post #75 of 77
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Bats wrote: In reply to: The point is that fixed quick links or biners could have saved the rescue crew some work and the climber some pain. . No, they would not help rescuers. Obviously,you have no clue on what you are talking about Grass Crack at Enchanted Rock. The anchors would not help rescue crews. ]
If you stopped and thought for a second you might just realize you are confusing yourself for no good reason. I said the anchors would saved the rescuers some work and the climber some pain. This means there wouldn't have been an accident to begin with. I swear, trad helmets cause restricted blood flow.
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