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Learner


May 29, 2011, 5:20 PM
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So, there's a route you want to redpoint...
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...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

(This post was edited by Learner on May 29, 2011, 7:13 PM)


redlude97


May 29, 2011, 5:37 PM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for flashing a route that is entirely new to you?
Crazy


Partner j_ung


May 29, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for flashing a route that is entirely new to you?

I think flash means something other than what you think it means. A flash is a send on the first try.

If I'm working a route as a project, I generally spread the work out over a few days. If I don't redpoint (that's the word you may be looking for) in a few days, I tend to lose interest.


guangzhou


May 29, 2011, 6:33 PM
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Re: [j_ung] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for flashing a route that is entirely new to you?

I think flash means something other than what you think it means. A flash is a send on the first try.

If I'm working a route as a project, I generally spread the work out over a few days. If I don't redpoint (that's the word you may be looking for) in a few days, I tend to lose interest.


Same here.


Learner


May 29, 2011, 7:18 PM
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Re: [j_ung] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for flashing a route that is entirely new to you?

I think flash means something other than what you think it means. A flash is a send on the first try.

If I'm working a route as a project, I generally spread the work out over a few days. If I don't redpoint (that's the word you may be looking for) in a few days, I tend to lose interest.

Corrected. Thanks.


notapplicable


May 30, 2011, 7:34 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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My redpoints either take hours or they take months/years. I'm usually not motivated enough to focus on one route on multiple trips but if I go to the same crag often enough, I will usually get back on the route eventually.

I once took six years and eight tries to redpoint a route. Seriously.


Dip


May 30, 2011, 8:19 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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If i blow the onsight and really love the route i'll try it one, maybe two more times that day then move on. If i still didn't send it, and it's worthy, i'll hit it one or two times on my next trip to the area. There's too much good rock out there to spend a whole day trying the same thing.


JAB


May 30, 2011, 8:23 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.


Gmburns2000


May 30, 2011, 10:02 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Depends on the day. If I think I can get it on the second try then I'll go for it then. If not, I'll work on other routes until I feel comfortable / strong enough. I think the longest gap between my first try and the red point was something like eight months, and that's because I tried it first in Oct and didn't get back on it again until the next summer.

Trying a route over and over again is really mind-numbingly boring to me. I rarely try to get a route clean more than two or three times in total. Once I get it clean, it's no problem climbing a route again if it happens to be free and there's nothing else to do, but if not then who cares? Move on.


jt512


May 30, 2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: [JAB] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay


ceebo


May 30, 2011, 3:05 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Why is that? < direct question.


guangzhou


May 30, 2011, 5:24 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
My redpoints either take hours or they take months/years. I'm usually not motivated enough to focus on one route on multiple trips but if I go to the same crag often enough, I will usually get back on the route eventually.

I once took six years and eight tries to redpoint a route. Seriously.

Sounds like me. Really depends on the route, the area, and other factors.


guangzhou


May 30, 2011, 5:29 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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In reply to:
.do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

In reply to:
Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

I don't agree. Belaying is a exchange. if two climbing partners are both working a project in the same way, I can see no problem.

I've also been known to go to the local cliff and just to belay a partner who had a project before.

When I was training to do the Regualr North West face of Half dome in a day, in the early 90"s not today, I had apartner who spent a few hours belaying me while I ran laps.

In reply to:
And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

In reply to:

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Why is that? < direct question.
Jay, I agree. I think this is fairly lame advice.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on May 31, 2011, 5:18 PM)


ceebo


May 31, 2011, 4:24 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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God i love these people who just disagree with something.. then give no explanation as to why.

Is it lame because it is dangerous?. How?.

Is it lame because you personally have never done it?. Why?.

Is it lame because this is the internet and you just like to disagree?. Is it?.

Is it lame because ''top roping'' moves first will not help in the eventual lead send?. Really?.

I'm just not getting why it is lame.. but then again, it's jay. If it's anything but a 7a sport route its lame. Not sure where you come into it though. Are you jays eastern cousin?.


Partner j_ung


May 31, 2011, 4:31 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
My redpoints either take hours or they take months/years. I'm usually not motivated enough to focus on one route on multiple trips but if I go to the same crag often enough, I will usually get back on the route eventually.

I once took six years and eight tries to redpoint a route. Seriously.

I've done that, too. My longest project was three attempts in three years.


JAB


May 31, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


essay


May 31, 2011, 6:53 AM
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Re: [JAB] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.


lena_chita
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May 31, 2011, 6:59 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
God i love these people who just disagree with something.. then give no explanation as to why.

Is it lame because it is dangerous?. How?.

Is it lame because you personally have never done it?. Why?.

Is it lame because this is the internet and you just like to disagree?. Is it?.

Is it lame because ''top roping'' moves first will not help in the eventual lead send?. Really?.

I'm just not getting why it is lame.. but then again, it's jay. If it's anything but a 7a sport route its lame. Not sure where you come into it though. Are you jays eastern cousin?.


It is a lame advice because only a small percentage of routes can be set up for toprope soloing, bue to lack of access on top, overhanging nature of the climb, the climb line meandering too much, etc. etc.

It is also a lame advice because you do NOT want to toprope solo a route that is so far above your limit that you need to work it as a multi-day project.

I could probaby come up with a few more reasons, but I hope this is enough for you.


lena_chita
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May 31, 2011, 7:23 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

It depends on whether the route is something i can reasonably expect to redpoint in just a couple of tries (e.g. something that is maybe just one letter grade up from my best flash grade, and of the type/style that I am good at), or whether it is a route that I expect to work on for many attempts (e.g. something graded equal to or harder than my best redpoint).

If I think I could do a route in just couple tries, I will on the first attempt try to go as far as I can without falling (basicly, give it all and atempt to flash it). Then, if I failed to flash it, I would go bolt to bolt, determine where the crux is, maybe try the crux sequence as I am being lowered (if the route is not overhanging so much as to prevent it), then rest a good while and try it again, with the "sending" attitude, LOL. And try again after a good rest, if needed.
I find that I usually don't have more than 3 good "redpoint" burns on a route in one day, so if 3 tries didn't do it, the redpoint is very unlikely to happen on try 4 or 5 of the day. So usually in terms of redpoint it is better for me to come back another day. if the situation is such that my partners still want to hang out ot the same place, I would continue climbing the route a couple more times.

If the route is really hard for me, I get on it with a plan of going bolt-to-bolt, figuring out each clipping stance, rests, etc. and really paying attention to the sequences. The next try I will start linking maybe 2 bolts at a time, if possible, paying attention to the sequences that I didn't see/do the first time because I was hanging on the bolt and so maybe didn't get into the sequence the right way. If possible, I would repeat the crux sequences, and maybe repeat the top section of the route, b.c that's where i would be most pumped on redpoint, so knowing the sequence well at the top would be helpful.
I would do this maybe 3 times tops in the first day, or even just 2 times --because I simply won't be capable of doing more on a hard-for-me route, and because of other considerations, such as time, other people wanting to climb the route, etc. etc.
Then the key thing for me is to think of the moves on the route during the week(s) when I cannot climb it. Visualize the sequences, picture myself climbing it, etc.
On subsequent days I make mini-goals for myself, depending on where the crux is, where the rests are, and what I see as my strategy for sending it, such as: link together up to bolt 4, rest on bolt 4 and try to do the sequence between 4 and 7 in one piece, and then lower from there, because it is easy from 7 to the top and I know that section will go. Or, go bolt-to-bolt up to bolt 4, and then try do go from there to the top. Or, go as far as I can from the start, and then go 2 bolts at a time. Whatever it is... after I can do my mini-goal, then I set the next one, until the send.


jomagam


May 31, 2011, 10:39 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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I wouldn't do it either because it'd suck to sit on the rope for hours and I do not have the motivation to work on a single route all day, but it's not a horrible idea IMO in the right circumstances.

In reply to:
only a small percentage of routes can be set up for toprope soloing, bue to lack of access on top

You should be able to stick-clip up on the route if you have any chance of sending it.

In reply to:
overhanging nature of the climb, the climb line meandering too much

You climb on the rope that's clipped into the draws and unclip. You should be able to get back even after a fall.

In reply to:
It is also a lame advice because you do NOT want to toprope solo a route that is so far above your limit that you need to work it as a multi-day project.

I sense circular logic here ;-)


I wouldn't want to toprope solo with a grigri for example if the crux is just above the ground on a long route or right at the anchors because the falls would be too soft hitting the ground or too hard.

To each its own...


lena_chita
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May 31, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Re: [jomagam] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jomagam wrote:
I wouldn't do it either because it'd suck to sit on the rope for hours and I do not have the motivation to work on a single route all day, but it's not a horrible idea IMO in the right circumstances.

So, what percentage of circumstances would be the right circumstances, in your estimation?

jomagam wrote:
In reply to:
only a small percentage of routes can be set up for toprope soloing, bue to lack of access on top

You should be able to stick-clip up on the route if you have any chance of sending it.

...except when you cannot stick clip your way up the route-- due to the distance between bolts being longer than your stick clip, due to a roof or a bulge blocking your reach to the next bolt, etc. etc. Yes, I can easily name quite a few routes that I have projected, am projecting, or am thinking about projecting, that are not stick-clipping friendly.



jomagam wrote:
In reply to:
overhanging nature of the climb, the climb line meandering too much

You climb on the rope that's clipped into the draws and unclip. You should be able to get back even after a fall.

Yes, I know which side of the rope I climb on, but I also know that the majority of the routes that I work on require active help from the belayer in order for the climber to get back on after a fall, if the fall happens to be in the wrong place, and are not toproping-friendly even when all the bolts are clipped.

This is terrain-dependent, obviously, which is why I specified overhanging and meandering routes.

jomagam wrote:
I wouldn't want to toprope solo with a grigri for example if the crux is just above the ground on a long route or right at the anchors because the falls would be too soft hitting the ground or too hard.

To each its own...


Thanks for listing another reason why it might not be the best way to work the route.


Remember, the original question was how to BEST work on redpointing a route -- not how to get out and climb when you want to climb without a partner, or are unable to find one. Rope soloing is definitely not the best way to redpoint a route, and therefore the advice to do so was rather strange... there is a big difference between "not a horrible idea in the right circumstances" and "the best idea".

And just to be clear, you are posting this in a thread started by someone who is so new to climbing that he (?) does not know the difference between flash and redpoint. He really needs to rope solo while redpointing his route, right?


jomagam


May 31, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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All that I said pertains to somebody who is hardcore enough to project a route for hours. I wouldn't advise a newbie to do so just because you want more experience rather than learn all the moves for a 10a. Having said that and considering that there's usually no single best way to do things in climbing, I think it's valid to list it as an option to make the thread more informative.

In reply to:
what percentage of circumstances would be the right circumstances, in your estimation?

Somewhere between 1/3rd and 2/3 of routes worth projecting in let's say the 5.12-5.13 range.


JAB


May 31, 2011, 12:54 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
And just to be clear, you are posting this in a thread started by someone who is so new to climbing that he (?) does not know the difference between flash and redpoint. He really needs to rope solo while redpointing his route, right?

This was actually one of the reasons I suggested top rope soloing. I don't think the OP is going to project some 5.13 overhanging stuff (where your bolt-to-bolt tactic works much better), but rather vertical routes where the main problem is not having the technique or endurance to climb it without resting. Also, new climbers often have very few climbing partners, so doing some TR soloing on those days none of your friends can make it is much better than trashing your fingers on the fingerboard at home.

But sure, I agree that TR soloing is not always the best way to project, but it definitely can be something worth considering.


(This post was edited by JAB on May 31, 2011, 12:56 PM)


jt512


May 31, 2011, 1:02 PM
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Re: [JAB] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
And just to be clear, you are posting this in a thread started by someone who is so new to climbing that he (?) does not know the difference between flash and redpoint. He really needs to rope solo while redpointing his route, right?

This was actually one of the reasons I suggested top rope soloing. I don't think the OP is going to project some 5.13 overhanging stuff (where your bolt-to-bolt tactic works much better), but rather vertical routes where the main problem is not having the technique or endurance to climb it without resting.

Your list of unwarranted assumptions continues to grow, and you've added a false dichotomy, as well. Moreover, by recommending top-rope soloing to work a route when the climber's problem is a lack of endurance, you've just defeated your own argument.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 31, 2011, 1:06 PM)


JAB


May 31, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
And just to be clear, you are posting this in a thread started by someone who is so new to climbing that he (?) does not know the difference between flash and redpoint. He really needs to rope solo while redpointing his route, right?

This was actually one of the reasons I suggested top rope soloing. I don't think the OP is going to project some 5.13 overhanging stuff (where your bolt-to-bolt tactic works much better), but rather vertical routes where the main problem is not having the technique or endurance to climb it without resting.

Your list of unwarranted assumptions continues to grow, and you've added a false dichotomy, as well. Moreover, by recommending top-rope soloing to work a route when the climber's problem is a lack of endurance, you've just defeated your own argument.

Jay

Well, the OP was only 3 rows, so in order to keep the discussion going we need to do some assumptions. This is the internet, after all! Sly


sticky_fingers


May 31, 2011, 1:37 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] So, there's a route you want to flash... [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
My redpoints either take hours or they take months/years. I'm usually not motivated enough to focus on one route on multiple trips but if I go to the same crag often enough, I will usually get back on the route eventually.

I once took six years and eight tries to redpoint a route. Seriously.

April 30, 2001, I sent a 10year, 8th try project Unsure

To OP, there's no formula for success other than repeated attempts. How often you do them is up to your patience/strength/endurance level


ceebo


May 31, 2011, 3:52 PM
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Re: [essay] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.


(This post was edited by ceebo on May 31, 2011, 3:58 PM)


spikeddem


May 31, 2011, 4:15 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.

Nope, he's right, top-rope soloists are social rejects.


essay


May 31, 2011, 4:51 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.


HAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry man, I should have said angry social rejects. Perhaps I should add whiny, angry and lame. Am I missing anything?


(This post was edited by essay on May 31, 2011, 4:54 PM)


ceebo


May 31, 2011, 5:24 PM
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Re: [essay] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.


HAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry man, I should have said angry social rejects. Perhaps I should add whiny, angry and lame. Am I missing anything?

I was expecting a more intelligent response tbh, Frown. If jay was Alan sugar, you would have been sacked.


spikeddem


May 31, 2011, 5:53 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.


HAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry man, I should have said angry social rejects. Perhaps I should add whiny, angry and lame. Am I missing anything?

I was expecting a more intelligent response tbh, Frown. If jay was Alan sugar, you would have been sacked.



(Although we all do know it to be true.)
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ceebo


May 31, 2011, 6:22 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

wow... just wow. I have to get into this just to see what you type up next.

- Why are they social rejects?, have you never once went climbing alone?. Are all free soloists social rejects? along with those who boulder alone, run alone, bike alone, etc.

- I have read many blogs and posts (some from this forum) stating that top rope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error. What are your reasons for saying otherwise?. Even if that single climber is clueless.. who is to say his partner is also not clueless. From that perspective, 1 death is better than 2.. right? can you figure out how 2 clueless partners may die within seconds of each other?.

- If they can't find a friend to swap with you are right.. it may be some reason other than climbing. Maybe they have a job, uni work, family commitments, just don't feel like it, are to tired from yesterdays climbing, are hung over from a party, sick, dead, on a date, at the dole (welfare), got beat up, at church, injecting smack, robbing a bank. And so.

Why should a person boulder instead of top rope soloing a route they are trying to send on lead?. What tactic is going to show the best results for that particular send with a partner short?. Are you saying training for a route by randomly bouldering stuff that slightly resembles the routes moves is more beneficial than trying to climb the route and all its actual moves?.

Maybe you are not aware, but climbing is not that popular if you take away the gyms. Some people live in areas that breath climbing.. others live in areas where climbing is only something you see on the tv (cliff hanger and so). To get good at climbing EATS time, most people are not willing or able to allow that. So a person in a low climbing pop zone with people who are not willing to put in the hours yet he/she realy wants to do sport/trad.. has limited options. Especially if he/she can not stand to climb indoor.

You sound young, and jobless. Or just ignorant.


HAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry man, I should have said angry social rejects. Perhaps I should add whiny, angry and lame. Am I missing anything?

I was expecting a more intelligent response tbh, Frown. If jay was Alan sugar, you would have been sacked.



(Although we all do know it to be true.)

Can i get a job with that?.


jt512


May 31, 2011, 6:54 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 31, 2011, 7:00 PM)


ceebo


Jun 1, 2011, 6:39 AM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


essay


Jun 1, 2011, 7:55 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


Wait, now you are convinced that there are less falls when you climb by yourself? Not just content to half the mechanical error anymore by making the system more complicated, now you insist that top rope soloing results in less falls. Wow. Why? Because you are too scared to fall? Very well thought out. Wait, what possibility of error is there on my part after the knot is tied and I am climbing? I am sure you have seen the knot untie while climbing? Am I getting the hint that every other climber is inferior to you and that is why you prefer to climb by yourself?

I think a great idea would be for top rope soloists would be to set up a sign that says in case I actually do fall, and my overly complicated system confuses me at the wrong moment, and I die, please don't ruin your day packing me out. I chose to die on my own because I couldn't find a climbing partner and that shouldn't negatively impact you. You might want to add a last testament about the hordes of gear I am sure a self professed top rope soloer possesses. Once time I saw one of these top rope soloist brood hit the ground from about 80 feet, man you should have heard the noise. Yea, we had to carry that fat worthless sack out, but the real problem began when the rescuers began helping themselves the to punters cams and draws as a service charge for the hike out.
If you set that sign up when you top rope solo, you might find yourself more welcome at the crag. At least by myself and every other climber who had their day ruined by the fat worthless fool.


Partner j_ung


Jun 1, 2011, 8:37 AM
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lena_chita wrote:

...except when you cannot stick clip your way up the route-- due to the distance between bolts being longer than your stick clip, due to a roof or a bulge blocking your reach to the next bolt, etc. etc. Yes, I can easily name quite a few routes that I have projected, am projecting, or am thinking about projecting, that are not stick-clipping friendly.

Don't forget routes that don't have bolts. Laugh


lena_chita
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Jun 1, 2011, 9:00 AM
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j_ung wrote:
lena_chita wrote:

...except when you cannot stick clip your way up the route-- due to the distance between bolts being longer than your stick clip, due to a roof or a bulge blocking your reach to the next bolt, etc. etc. Yes, I can easily name quite a few routes that I have projected, am projecting, or am thinking about projecting, that are not stick-clipping friendly.

Don't forget routes that don't have bolts. Laugh

Yes, I made assumptions about the OP being a sport climber. I don't know why...


Partner cracklover


Jun 1, 2011, 9:26 AM
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j_ung wrote:
lena_chita wrote:

...except when you cannot stick clip your way up the route-- due to the distance between bolts being longer than your stick clip, due to a roof or a bulge blocking your reach to the next bolt, etc. etc. Yes, I can easily name quite a few routes that I have projected, am projecting, or am thinking about projecting, that are not stick-clipping friendly.

Don't forget routes that don't have bolts. Laugh

I was climbing in Indian Creek last weekend with a French sport climber. He really loves the climbing there, but this was only his second time there.

We were back at the campsite after a good day and he was enthusing about a climb he had just done. He says "So at the third bolt..."

I LOLed.

GO


ceebo


Jun 1, 2011, 9:39 AM
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Re: [essay] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


Wait, now you are convinced that there are less falls when you climb by yourself? Not just content to half the mechanical error anymore by making the system more complicated, now you insist that top rope soloing results in less falls. Wow. Why? Because you are too scared to fall? Very well thought out. Wait, what possibility of error is there on my part after the knot is tied and I am climbing? I am sure you have seen the knot untie while climbing? Am I getting the hint that every other climber is inferior to you and that is why you prefer to climb by yourself?

I think a great idea would be for top rope soloists would be to set up a sign that says in case I actually do fall, and my overly complicated system confuses me at the wrong moment, and I die, please don't ruin your day packing me out. I chose to die on my own because I couldn't find a climbing partner and that shouldn't negatively impact you. You might want to add a last testament about the hordes of gear I am sure a self professed top rope soloer possesses. Once time I saw one of these top rope soloist brood hit the ground from about 80 feet, man you should have heard the noise. Yea, we had to carry that fat worthless sack out, but the real problem began when the rescuers began helping themselves the to punters cams and draws as a service charge for the hike out.
If you set that sign up when you top rope solo, you might find yourself more welcome at the crag. At least by myself and every other climber who had their day ruined by the fat worthless fool.

Take away these people who read a few top anchor books, had no climbing background then 1 day decided to go climb a mountain alone.. then yes, that is what i am saying.

Nice try.


spikeddem


Jun 1, 2011, 5:54 PM
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


Wait, now you are convinced that there are less falls when you climb by yourself? Not just content to half the mechanical error anymore by making the system more complicated, now you insist that top rope soloing results in less falls. Wow. Why? Because you are too scared to fall? Very well thought out. Wait, what possibility of error is there on my part after the knot is tied and I am climbing? I am sure you have seen the knot untie while climbing? Am I getting the hint that every other climber is inferior to you and that is why you prefer to climb by yourself?

I think a great idea would be for top rope soloists would be to set up a sign that says in case I actually do fall, and my overly complicated system confuses me at the wrong moment, and I die, please don't ruin your day packing me out. I chose to die on my own because I couldn't find a climbing partner and that shouldn't negatively impact you. You might want to add a last testament about the hordes of gear I am sure a self professed top rope soloer possesses. Once time I saw one of these top rope soloist brood hit the ground from about 80 feet, man you should have heard the noise. Yea, we had to carry that fat worthless sack out, but the real problem began when the rescuers began helping themselves the to punters cams and draws as a service charge for the hike out.
If you set that sign up when you top rope solo, you might find yourself more welcome at the crag. At least by myself and every other climber who had their day ruined by the fat worthless fool.

Take away these people who read a few top anchor books, had no climbing background then 1 day decided to go climb a mountain alone.. then yes, that is what i am saying.

Nice try.

Your response to Jay made absolutely no sense to me. I read essay's response to your nonsensical response, and thought "Nah, there's no way he's talking about that." Then I read your new response--nonsensical again--and I'm just sitting here baffled. I have absolutely no clue what's going on anymore. Then I tried to read your signature, which took a while, but I finally understood what you're trying to say--at least in the signature.


essay


Jun 1, 2011, 7:28 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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I believe this site is called rockclimbing.com not mountainchuffing.com. But seriously dude, do you have life insurance?


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jun 2, 2011, 8:37 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


Wait, now you are convinced that there are less falls when you climb by yourself? Not just content to half the mechanical error anymore by making the system more complicated, now you insist that top rope soloing results in less falls. Wow. Why? Because you are too scared to fall? Very well thought out. Wait, what possibility of error is there on my part after the knot is tied and I am climbing? I am sure you have seen the knot untie while climbing? Am I getting the hint that every other climber is inferior to you and that is why you prefer to climb by yourself?

I think a great idea would be for top rope soloists would be to set up a sign that says in case I actually do fall, and my overly complicated system confuses me at the wrong moment, and I die, please don't ruin your day packing me out. I chose to die on my own because I couldn't find a climbing partner and that shouldn't negatively impact you. You might want to add a last testament about the hordes of gear I am sure a self professed top rope soloer possesses. Once time I saw one of these top rope soloist brood hit the ground from about 80 feet, man you should have heard the noise. Yea, we had to carry that fat worthless sack out, but the real problem began when the rescuers began helping themselves the to punters cams and draws as a service charge for the hike out.
If you set that sign up when you top rope solo, you might find yourself more welcome at the crag. At least by myself and every other climber who had their day ruined by the fat worthless fool.

Take away these people who read a few top anchor books, had no climbing background then 1 day decided to go climb a mountain alone.. then yes, that is what i am saying.

Nice try.

Your response to Jay made absolutely no sense to me. I read essay's response to your nonsensical response, and thought "Nah, there's no way he's talking about that." Then I read your new response--nonsensical again--and I'm just sitting here baffled. I have absolutely no clue what's going on anymore. Then I tried to read your signature, which took a while, but I finally understood what you're trying to say--at least in the signature.

I think he is making a subtle riff on the old Steve Martin joke about how to have population control "simple - death penalty for parking violations"


ceebo


Jun 2, 2011, 5:01 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
[R]ope solo is actually safer than partner climbing as it halves the chance of human error.

Coming from anyone other than you, one would assume that that was a joke.

Why not take away the rope and reduce the chance of mechanical error while you're at it.

Jay

Their would certainly be less falls. I don't expect you will understand why.


Wait, now you are convinced that there are less falls when you climb by yourself? Not just content to half the mechanical error anymore by making the system more complicated, now you insist that top rope soloing results in less falls. Wow. Why? Because you are too scared to fall? Very well thought out. Wait, what possibility of error is there on my part after the knot is tied and I am climbing? I am sure you have seen the knot untie while climbing? Am I getting the hint that every other climber is inferior to you and that is why you prefer to climb by yourself?

I think a great idea would be for top rope soloists would be to set up a sign that says in case I actually do fall, and my overly complicated system confuses me at the wrong moment, and I die, please don't ruin your day packing me out. I chose to die on my own because I couldn't find a climbing partner and that shouldn't negatively impact you. You might want to add a last testament about the hordes of gear I am sure a self professed top rope soloer possesses. Once time I saw one of these top rope soloist brood hit the ground from about 80 feet, man you should have heard the noise. Yea, we had to carry that fat worthless sack out, but the real problem began when the rescuers began helping themselves the to punters cams and draws as a service charge for the hike out.
If you set that sign up when you top rope solo, you might find yourself more welcome at the crag. At least by myself and every other climber who had their day ruined by the fat worthless fool.

Take away these people who read a few top anchor books, had no climbing background then 1 day decided to go climb a mountain alone.. then yes, that is what i am saying.

Nice try.

Your response to Jay made absolutely no sense to me. I read essay's response to your nonsensical response, and thought "Nah, there's no way he's talking about that." Then I read your new response--nonsensical again--and I'm just sitting here baffled. I have absolutely no clue what's going on anymore. Then I tried to read your signature, which took a while, but I finally understood what you're trying to say--at least in the signature.

I think he is making a subtle riff on the old Steve Martin joke about how to have population control "simple - death penalty for parking violations"

For how long do you wish to stay on this page?, i enjoy company.


sungam


Jun 2, 2011, 6:12 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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I don't think we are ragging on Ceebo enough for TOTALLY GETTING REELED IN BY ESSAY.

Dude you just got PWNdizzled!

The only BIGGER dose of the pwnbread that I've seen eaten in the last few weeks was Angry falling for the facebook link trick and getting his panties all up in a bunch. Heh.


sungam


Jun 2, 2011, 6:13 PM
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Oh, and Shockabuku falling off the 5.7.




































... Tusoon?


superchuffer


Jun 2, 2011, 7:08 PM
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Re: [essay] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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not sure what all the fuss is about... I likes a good afternoon roped soloin


bearbreeder


Jun 2, 2011, 10:27 PM
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Re: [JAB] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=868495

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion. Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!


obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...
Wink


JAB


Jun 2, 2011, 10:38 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137


jt512


Jun 2, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=868495

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion. Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!


obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...
Wink

Bearbreeder logic: Tommy once worked a move on solo toprope. Therefore, solo toproping is the best way to work a redpoint project.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 2, 2011, 10:53 PM)


bearbreeder


Jun 2, 2011, 10:45 PM
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andy kirkpatrick

http://www.planetfear.com/...lf_Belaying_404.html

Self-belaying via a fixed top rope, or 'self lining' as it is commonly called, is a good technique if you really want to climb but don't want to go bouldering or climb unroped. The technique is commonly used by climbers who are unable to find partners and is often used to work routes rather than have a friend standing around belaying for hours on end.

boy am i glad that on rc ... we have an "expert" telling us that some of the top climbers and some very good alpinists are all wrong ...

i mean really ... those gumbies dont know what they are doing Wink

E11 ... pffft ...


bearbreeder


Jun 2, 2011, 10:46 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Bearbrainer logic (with apologies to bears): Tommy once worked a move on solo toprope. Therefore, solo toproping is the best way to work a redpoint project.

Jay

jay logic ... doesnt matter what anyone else does ... caldwell, macleod ...

i cant climb harder then em ... but i MUST know better and MUST be right ...

TR solo is stuuuuuuupid ....

lol
Tongue


jt512


Jun 2, 2011, 10:51 PM
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JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 2, 2011, 10:52 PM)


bearbreeder


Jun 2, 2011, 10:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

the best way to send something is to GO OUT AND CLIMB IT ...

a TR solo device will allow ya to do that ... even if you dont have a partner

and yes if youve seen progression, or the prophet with leo holding ... they do TR solo their stuff quite a bit ...

or maybe you can send without a partner to pratice with...

Wink


JAB


Jun 2, 2011, 11:34 PM
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jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this. TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 12:02 AM
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JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not getting worked up. I'm just calling bullshit on your bullshit.

In reply to:
TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

I'm not sure how to classify all the fallacies you've managed to pack into those two sentences. There's a straw man there for sure, along with the fallacy of Trying to Weasel Out of an Untenable Position by Any Means Possible™.

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 3, 2011, 12:05 AM)


shockabuku


Jun 3, 2011, 2:08 AM
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sungam wrote:
Oh, and Shockabuku falling off the 5.7.

... Tusoon?

From a guy who doesn't want his name plastered all over the site? Maybe.


sungam


Jun 3, 2011, 2:27 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
sungam wrote:
Oh, and Shockabuku falling off the 5.7.

... Tusoon?

From a guy who doesn't want his name plastered all over the site? Maybe.
Unsure Sorry Brah. Just fooling. Thanks again for that!


By the way, when did everyone decide that the dude couldn't get a partner?I would definitely say that climbing with a partner is more fun, and it's easier to not lose motivation. Especially excellent is when you are both working the same route, sharing beta etc.

While TRS is useful for working routes into a pulp (as said before, as long as they aren't too steep/meandering/etc), I really don't think it's as much fun. I do enjoy it on occasion, but not nearly as much as a good partner.

Plus, if you finally work the route out and can send it every go, it would suck not to dispatch that suckah there and then!


JAB


Jun 3, 2011, 2:48 AM
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jt512 wrote:
You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

Ah yes, I made the single largest mistake you can do on a message board: make an unconditional claim. Sorry for that.


ceebo


Jun 3, 2011, 6:12 AM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not getting worked up. I'm just calling bullshit on your bullshit.

In reply to:
TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.

I'm not sure how to classify all the fallacies you've managed to pack into those two sentences. There's a straw man there for sure, along with the fallacy of Trying to Weasel Out of an Untenable Position by Any Means Possible™.

You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

That's 15x more than what you usually write.. so i call bull shit on you saying your not wound up.


lena_chita
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Jun 3, 2011, 6:25 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=868495

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion. Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!


obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...
Wink


I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.


spikeddem


Jun 3, 2011, 7:23 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=868495

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion. Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!


obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...
Wink


I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.
If this doesn't get the point across, it may be time to give up on them.


bearbreeder


Jun 3, 2011, 9:25 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.

and ill say it again ...

the original question is ..

...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?


a TR solo device allows you to spend all the time you want on it ... regardlesss of partners

in the real world we dont all have belay slaves that can sit for hours on end whatever days we are free on the same route...

they usually want to get a decent amount of climbing in as well ...

even super duper famous climbers like old tommy or dave have issues finding belay biatches all the time ...

so whatever allows you to climb it as much as possible is "best" in my books ...
Wink


ceebo


Jun 3, 2011, 9:30 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=868495

With bad weather, I was off the hook for belay duties. But Tommy, being the animal he is, decided to work on the route self belayed with a mini traxion. Nothing like 5.14a friction in rain/snow.

Halfway through the day he let us know that he made a major breakthrough and found a way to get around the 5.14+ crux with some 5.13+. now the route only had 5 5.14 pitches… no problem!!


obviously some RC "experts" know better ...

they probably climb harder than old tommy there ... i mean come on ... 5,14a ... pffft ... only gumbies TR solo to work out the moves for that ...
Wink


I'll translate the underlined part for you: usually Tommy worked on the route with his partner belaying him. But when he found himself without a belayer one day, because the weather was really bad, he went to work on his project anyway, on self-belay, and it was a productive session for him.

I do not see a contradiction there, at all. He might have had a breakthrough that day with a belayer, just as easily. This is a long way from saying that rope soloing is the best tactic from redpointing something.

Yes, people can rope solo, and many do. If you are like Stéphane Perron, you climb Free Rider on El Cap solo. Some people just like rope soloing better than climbing with a partner.

But when someone asks "what is the best way to redpoint a climb", the belay method has absolutely nothing to do with it. The suggestion to rope solo it was about as relevant as a suggestion to make sure that his belayer uses a gri-gri, because the climber would be hanging a lot.

If the guy posted something like: 'help, I really want to redpoint this climb, but nobody wants to belay me, what do I do?' then maybe, just maybe, rope soloing would be relevant. With many caveats previously mentioned still applying.
If this doesn't get the point across, it may be time to give up on them.

Only point I'm getting is that people don't rope solo because they don't want to or don't fully understand its benefits?. We are a communal species so climbing alone may not appeal to most. If a persons joy is fully in the climbing alone then i don't see what difference it makes to climb with or with ought somebody.

Add up all the time lost on the rock due to a partner having to call it early for what ever reason it would amount to quite allot, unless you are the one who always calls it early ofc. Plenty of times iv'e sensed my partner is just done and had enough.. so not to be a selfish bastard i leave it at that and head home, quietly frustrated.

Not having to rely on anybody else's time table and being able to climb to your own personal limits of stamina, roped solo or anything of the likes is IMO the best way to work a route that is accessible to do so. If all your partners are just as motivated and can keep up the pace with no conflicting climbing days then... crack on.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 3, 2011, 9:31 AM)


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 9:42 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
the original question is ..

...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?


a TR solo device allows you to spend all the time you want on it ... regardlesss of partners

So, how many projects have you, yourself, worked on toprope solo, bear?

Jay


DouglasHunter


Jun 3, 2011, 9:53 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

I tend to break red point projects into three general ranges based the climber's skill at using red point tactics and the route's difficulty in relation to the climber's consistent flash level. Assuming that a climber has well developed stamina, is good at memorizing movement, and has well refined red point tactics a general framework might look like this:

1) Quick red points:These are routes that are 1 - 2 letter grades harder than the climber's consistent flash level and the climber can easily do them in a day as they take 1 - 4 tries. For routes in this range the goal in the first burn is to learn everything you need to know about the route for the red point. The goal of the second attempt is to get the red point. If you don't get the red point then figure out why, make corrections and then get the red point on the third try.

2) Moderate length red points: 3 - 4 letter grades above consistent flash level. These project can take 5 - 12 tries over the course of 1 - 3 days. They consist of several burns specifically dedicated to learning and memorizing the details of the route, the sequences, the moves, the clips, the rests, pacing, etc. In this range there are usually at least 3 learning burns and 2 - 4 attempts at the actual red point.

3) Long term projects. These are routes that are 5 or more letter grades above the climber's current flash level. They can take 15 - 20 or more tries over extended periods of time. Because the climber is working at a level high above his base level of skill in terms of fitness and movement success can be elusive, and the amount that can be achieved in a day is diminished. It can take many tries to do the basic learning necessary for an eventual red point, and it can be very hard to know when to switch from learning burns to red point burns. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.


bearbreeder


Jun 3, 2011, 9:58 AM
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jt512 wrote:

So, how many projects have you, yourself, worked on toprope solo, bear?

Jay

whenever i can feasibly set up a TR myself ... i like to save my partners time for leads ...

but hey thats just me ... when they get bored from me working out the moves ... its not the sign of a good climbing relationship IMO

you of course probably do things differently with yr partners Wink


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 10:03 AM
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JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
You made the unconditional claim that toprope soloing is "the best" method for working a redpoint project. Sure, toprope soloing is not an "obscure" technique, nor is it necessarily "just for rare situations." And, sure (I suppose) toprope soloing is the best solution "in some cases" (eg, when you can't find a partner). But none of that supports your claim that toprope soloing is unconditionally the best method for working a redpoint project. For god sake give it up. If your claim were true, then it would not be the case that almost no project is ever worked in this manner by anyone. No matter how many (few?) examples you can dig up by selectively trawling the Internet for support, there are literally 10s of thousands of examples to the contrary. Do good climbers on occasion work moves on solo toprope? Sure. Is it the norm? Not even remotely. What Universe do you climb in that you could actually have such an opinion?

Jay

Ah yes, I made the single largest mistake you can do on a message board: make an unconditional claim.

More bullshit. Now you're trying to claim that all you did was fail to disclose some rare exception to when "the best way to really project is to top rope solo," when what you did was exactly the opposite: you claimed that the rare exception itself was "the best."

Jay


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 10:08 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

So, how many projects have you, yourself, worked on toprope solo, bear?

Jay

whenever i can feasibly set up a TR myself ...

"Whenever" is not answer to the question "how many projects?" Just as I figured you would, you refused to answer the question, probably because the answer is "zero."

Jay


sungam


Jun 3, 2011, 10:08 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

So, how many projects have you, yourself, worked on toprope solo, bear?

Jay

whenever i can feasibly set up a TR myself ... i like to save my partners time for leads ...

but hey thats just me ... when they get bored from me working out the moves ... its not the sign of a good climbing relationship IMO

you of course probably do things differently with yr partners Wink
So what your saying is you did it once or twice, and it seemed alright?


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Re: [sungam] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:

So, how many projects have you, yourself, worked on toprope solo, bear?

Jay

whenever i can feasibly set up a TR myself ... i like to save my partners time for leads ...

but hey thats just me ... when they get bored from me working out the moves ... its not the sign of a good climbing relationship IMO

you of course probably do things differently with yr partners Wink
So what your saying is you did it once or twice, and it seemed alright?

Don't exclude "never" without video proof.

Jay


bearbreeder


Jun 3, 2011, 10:20 AM
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jt512 wrote:
"Whenever" is not answer to the question "how many projects?" Just as I figured you would, you refused to answer the question, probably because the answer is "zero."

Jay


you can assume what you want mista jay ... dont be so sad that people dont "answer" you ...

whenver simply means whenver .. in my case most of the stuff my gumbay azz cant onsite or flash at the bluffs, murrin or malamute ... or other areas where the anshors are at the top

im quite sure youll contribute greatly to this thread i mean really ..

"This is utterly lame advice. "

is the best advice ive ever heard Wink

people just go out and climb ... if it means TR solo ... then they do it ...

or would you prefer to not climb when ya dont have a partner that will be your belay slave while working a project ... im sure all the posts on rc will give you the send mojo for your project
Tongue


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 10:26 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:

people just go out and climb ... if it means TR solo ... then they do it ...

or would you prefer to not climb when ya dont have a partner that will be your belay slave while working a project ...

I don't need or want a "belay slave" to climb with, and it has been years since I've had to give up a day of climbing for lack of a partner.

Jay


bearbreeder


Jun 3, 2011, 10:30 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want a "belay slave" to climb with, and it has been years since I've had to give up a day of climbing for lack of a partner.

Jay


wow jay you are sooo blessed with a multitude of willing partners that will put up with you hours on end ... quite a few of us arent so blessed

maybe you can actually contribute by telling us your secret Wink

id love to stay and chat, but its sunny out and ive got a real live partner who aint a russian girl named ushba ...

and no im not going to get him to belay me on the same line over and over again while i work the moves

otherwise we wouldnt be partners for very long
Shocked


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 11:16 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need or want a "belay slave" to climb with, and it has been years since I've had to give up a day of climbing for lack of a partner.

Jay


wow jay you are sooo blessed with a multitude of willing partners that will put up with you hours on end ... quite a few of us arent so blessed

maybe you can actually contribute by telling us your secret Wink

There's no secret. Be an excellent belayer, be reliable, and have compatible goals and personalities.

In reply to:
and no im not going to get him to belay me on the same line over and over again while i work the moves

otherwise we wouldnt be partners for very long
Shocked

Then you're doing something wrong. I've had some of the same sport climbing partners for over 10 years.

Jay


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 11:22 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
"Whenever" is not answer to the question "how many projects?" Just as I figured you would, you refused to answer the question, probably because the answer is "zero."

Jay

whenver simply means whenver .. in my case most of the stuff my gumbay azz cant onsite or flash at the bluffs, murrin or malamute ... or other areas where the anshors are at the top

You've evaded the question twice. I've twice asked you about your experience working redpoint projects by toprope soloing, and you've twice answered, not about your experience with projecting, but about your experience toprope soloing.

I've no doubt whatsoever that you've spent an inordinate amount of time top rope soloing, and that you've dogged and aided your way up routes solo on top rope that you couldn't flash. What I doubt, and the question you keep evading, is whether, and how often, you have purposefully used toprope soloing as a tactic to work a redpoint project. Truth be told, I question whether you have ever worked a redpoint project at all.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 4, 2011, 9:51 PM)


jt512


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DouglasHunter wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

I tend to break red point projects into three general ranges based the climber's skill at using red point tactics and the route's difficulty in relation to the climber's consistent flash level. Assuming that a climber has well developed stamina, is good at memorizing movement, and has well refined red point tactics a general framework might look like this:

1) Quick red points:These are routes that are 1 - 2 letter grades harder than the climber's consistent flash level and the climber can easily do them in a day as they take 1 - 4 tries. For routes in this range the goal in the first burn is to learn everything you need to know about the route for the red point. The goal of the second attempt is to get the red point. If you don't get the red point then figure out why, make corrections and then get the red point on the third try.

2) Moderate length red points: 3 - 4 letter grades above consistent flash level. These project can take 5 - 12 tries over the course of 1 - 3 days. They consist of several burns specifically dedicated to learning and memorizing the details of the route, the sequences, the moves, the clips, the rests, pacing, etc. In this range there are usually at least 3 learning burns and 2 - 4 attempts at the actual red point.

3) Long term projects. These are routes that are 5 or more letter grades above the climber's current flash level. They can take 15 - 20 or more tries over extended periods of time. Because the climber is working at a level high above his base level of skill in terms of fitness and movement success can be elusive, and the amount that can be achieved in a day is diminished. It can take many tries to do the basic learning necessary for an eventual red point, and it can be very hard to know when to switch from learning burns to red point burns. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

Definitely the most useful post in the thread, Douglas, as your posts generally are. But I don't think you can keep Category 4, Toprope Solo Projects, a secret from the rest of the world any longer.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 3, 2011, 11:37 AM)


Bag11s


Jun 3, 2011, 12:22 PM
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right- projects, projects, and projects. I like your red pointing tactical summary, Douglas Hunter, and do much the same thing, with the shape formerly unanalyzed.


DouglasHunter


Jun 3, 2011, 12:40 PM
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Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink


spikeddem


Jun 3, 2011, 12:50 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

Will top-rope soloing my low ball boulder problems help me send? I don't really have time for waiting to send. If I could just send today that'd be great.


ceebo


Jun 3, 2011, 3:09 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 3:32 PM
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ceebo wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.

Qouted for posterity.

Jay


spikeddem


Jun 3, 2011, 4:00 PM
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.

Qouted for posterity.

Jay

Fairly sure that English is his first language even. If it's not, then I understand.


Nipple


Jun 4, 2011, 11:40 AM
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JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this. TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.


People have gottten worked up because someone suggested the absolutely terrible idea of top rope soloing to a beginner who was interested in how to work routes for a Red Point. There was no reason to offer this suggestion to a beginner. Yes, Leo and Tommy top rope solo their projects, but that is because they are very experienced, are many pitches up, their projects require tons of work, and no one wants to be their belay bitchs all the time. As a result, they have to work on these routes solo. A beginner asking this question has no need to know of such techniques. With time, once he has become proficient at climbing, he can then explore the viability of top rope soloing to red point a project. Beginners are only going to get themselves in trouble figuring out their top rope soloing system, as some have point out, this has led to accidents in the past.


ghisino


Jun 14, 2011, 4:04 AM
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DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 6:59 AM
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ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 8:15 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.


ghisino


Jun 14, 2011, 9:23 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

of course "100 tries" was an exxageration, at least for sport climbs (ticking 100 attempts on a boulder problem can easily happen in "just" one season!).

as for my be-open-to-beta-changes argument, well, it also holds for the choice between beta "a" and beta "b" coming from two different climbers...


long DG rambling drawing circles around the same subject, among many others, for the sake of making a short point long...:
http://www.udinigallery.com/index.php?Itemid=117&g2_itemId=16849&option=com_gallery2


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jun 14, 2011, 9:24 AM)


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 9:27 AM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 9:52 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 10:53 AM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.

Fine, someone else will have to explain it to me, because I legitimately do not understand what it means to "break beta."


cfnubbler


Jun 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
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essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

You're right. I'm hopelessly lame and socially inept because I enjoy getting in 1500' of training and fun movement after work and still getting home in time to read my kids their bedtime stories.


healyje


Jun 14, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Rest, rest, send, next...

It really isn't that complicated.


Partner cracklover


Jun 14, 2011, 11:38 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.

Fine, someone else will have to explain it to me, because I legitimately do not understand what it means to "break beta."

I'm guessing he means he figured out the right sequence that worked for him. No idea why he didn't say that. <shrug>

Of course, he may actually be proving your point. Had he taken the effort to track down the right beta, it may not have taken him over a year to send!

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 11:47 AM
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cracklover wrote:
I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO
I'm right in the same boat, and for the same reasons.


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 3:35 PM
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In reply to:
I'm guessing he means he figured out the right sequence that worked for him. No idea why he didn't say that. <shrug>

Of course, he may actually be proving your point. Had he taken the effort to track down the right beta, it may not have taken him over a year to send!

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO

Wow, like understanding ''breaking better'' took the same brain cells as cracking the davinci code. Maybe i should have said ''fixed the beta''. I guess being English i inherited the cultural sway toward terms of negativity.

It took over a year to send because it was a entire grade above my consistent max when i started it with intent of sending. for a year or 2 prior to that i could barely get off the ground.

Your last comment is interesting though, don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.


Partner cracklover


Jun 15, 2011, 8:09 AM
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ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO


ceebo


Jun 15, 2011, 9:52 AM
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cracklover wrote:
ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO

I meant mandatory in the sense making fundamental personal ''problem solve'' improvement. Unless their is always somebody at hand to give beta then that person will seriously struggle when it comes to projecting alone.

I would much rather go through that phase on high 7's than try to go through it on high 8's. The learning process of knowing what is right and what is wrong is something you get from time spent actually doing things wrong.. as to define right. The further away from human limits you are while drilling that the easier it ''should'' be from the mental side of things. Being told moves that required pure blood and sweat to figure out in no way helps for the bigger picture. For that one send sure.. but i'm thinking way way ahead of that. Would you rather be working a 9a that may take 5 years to finally send or climb a few hundred 7's and 8s?. That i suppose depends on what reasons a person is motivated to climb.

I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

You'r analogy is kinda wrong though, as far as my body is concerned their was no wheel until i invented it. I can tell a beginner and even show them how to use a drop knee.. but their body has no idea why it has to do that.. because it has not been in the wrong position enough times to calculate and understand it is easier.

Also, doing things the wrong way can still be the ''right'' way on another route and another move that can be tapped into later. So it is not exactly wasted energy.


spikeddem


Jun 15, 2011, 12:04 PM
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ceebo wrote:
cracklover wrote:
ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO

I meant mandatory in the sense making fundamental personal ''problem solve'' improvement. Unless their is always somebody at hand to give beta then that person will seriously struggle when it comes to projecting alone.

I would much rather go through that phase on high 7's than try to go through it on high 8's. The learning process of knowing what is right and what is wrong is something you get from time spent actually doing things wrong.. as to define right. The further away from human limits you are while drilling that the easier it ''should'' be from the mental side of things. Being told moves that required pure blood and sweat to figure out in no way helps for the bigger picture. For that one send sure.. but i'm thinking way way ahead of that. Would you rather be working a 9a that may take 5 years to finally send or climb a few hundred 7's and 8s?. That i suppose depends on what reasons a person is motivated to climb.

I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

You'r analogy is kinda wrong though, as far as my body is concerned their was no wheel until i invented it. I can tell a beginner and even show them how to use a drop knee.. but their body has no idea why it has to do that.. because it has not been in the wrong position enough times to calculate and understand it is easier.

Also, doing things the wrong way can still be the ''right'' way on another route and another move that can be tapped into later. So it is not exactly wasted energy.

You didn't understand his post at all. He perfectly answered your question.


ghisino


Jun 16, 2011, 1:41 AM
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so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jun 16, 2011, 4:36 AM
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ghisino wrote:
so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...

Well you do have to admit, reading this thread probably made you both stupider and, in all likelihood, a worse climber. I certainly feel that way.


ceebo


Jun 16, 2011, 6:01 AM
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ghisino wrote:
so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...

Notice how you talk as though you will always be the learner. Can you never perceive yourself to be the teacher? at least to yourself. You do not have to be anywhere near 9a or ''athlete'' status before you can do that. In fact that is probably a result of those who could.

Please do not take it out of context either, i did not say when ever you learn ANYTHING it is bad. Ofc their is the beginning phase where it is absolutely logical to learn all the basics of technique and so on from other people. But after that a person should be striving to be self sufficient. At least to the point where they can send a project route with no outside input. That IMO is the reward in climbing.

Also, working a route at the same time with a partner and discussing solutions. Both people are still trying all the moves in trial and error. They are both still exposed to the solving conditions. It is not quite the same as working something alone with no help but it's far more beneficial to both than being given beta.

I want to give you a example of the ''3 step'' process i use.

When teaching new climbers the first step is learning them just a small handful of technique moves like sharing hands or feet etc.

The second step i will pick out a route that i know requires a few of the techniques they have most recently been shown. Then i ask them to climb the route and legitimately utilise those moves within that route. They know they have a few moves that are applicable to the route, so if they do get stuck they run those through their head and work out if one is viable. The only time i will step in to say something is if they do a move in the right way (well done) or the wrong way. On doing something the wrong way, they will be lowered to the move and have to repeat it in another manner.. building a base of what feels right and wrong to them.

The 3rd step is reminding them to carry on that process alone in their ''free time'' climbing. Every time they get stuck they process a bunch of moves in their head and figure out if any apply r can be modified. And also never to be shy of retrying even completed moves in another way.

Obviously the steps need repeating session to session with new moves, or refining old ones.. but the goal is that within 6 month to a year these climbers will have all the foundations of technique/solving they need.

If i instead just gave them beta every time they got stuck they may have a short term spike in grade performance.. but later down the line it is not helping them.

Do you really think a climber is capable of reaching their potential if they still rely on any sort of help in terms of figuring out a move?. Again, it comes down to short term vs long term goals.


Partner cracklover


Jun 16, 2011, 8:10 AM
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"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

--George Bernard Shaw

Cheers,

GO


ceebo


Jun 16, 2011, 8:15 AM
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cracklover wrote:
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

--George Bernard Shaw

Cheers,

GO

Did you really have to give the rest beta on that?.


Send_Or_Spank


Jun 28, 2011, 6:29 AM
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Ceebo,

Here is beta you need, regardless of the risk against mandatory learning (pretty sure you're well beyond that point).

there - in, at or to that place - E.g. Could you go spray over there instead?
they're - short form of they are - E.g. They're laughing at the sack that ate dirt top rope soloing.
their - determiner belonging to them - E.g. What top rop solo setup is their favorite?

Cheers


ceebo


Jun 28, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Send_Or_Spank wrote:
Ceebo,

Here is beta you need, regardless of the risk against mandatory learning (pretty sure you're well beyond that point).

there - in, at or to that place - E.g. Could you go spray over there instead?
they're - short form of they are - E.g. They're laughing at the sack that ate dirt top rope soloing.
their - determiner belonging to them - E.g. What top rop solo setup is their favorite?

Cheers

Well, i don't care who i wrestle with or who is watching. You?.


essay


Jun 29, 2011, 12:51 PM
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There are better sites for you Ceebo if you want to do some man wrestling, perhaps the man who breeds with bears can direct you. I prefer the rock variety.

In the future could you please shorten your rants, I love being amused but you do tend to drone.


Dragonclimber


Aug 17, 2011, 9:44 AM
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Can someone help me out with this climbing lingo? I am new to climbing and trying to keep up. Whats the difference between "onsighting" "flashing" "sending" and "redpointing"?


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Now this should be a new topic, I am sure we can all have a good fight over the meaning of Redpoint, Flash, Onsight, and Pinkpoint. I think you should begin a new thread if you really want to se it broken down.


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 1:27 PM
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ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 3:03 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...

You will never on sight a route that is above your current limit. That is the reason ''smart'' climbers put their thinking cap on and ''project''. If you really think you have any kind of shot at it.. you are delusional or have serious ego problems. You clearly do not understand the difference, tactics and motivation to on sight or project, nor your own limit.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 3:37 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 3:55 PM
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ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...

You will never on sight a route that is above your current limit. That is the reason ''smart'' climbers put their thinking cap on and ''project''. If you really think you have any kind of shot at it.. you are delusional or have serious ego problems. You clearly do not understand the difference, tactics and motivation to on sight or project, nor your own limit.

I understand it's highly unlikely/nigh impossible that you're gonna onsight it, but it still feels weird to me that you would start up a route, picking a place where you will fall. Couldn't you just aim for the top, and then when you DO fall, continue to work on the redpoint from there? It's really no less "efficient" (as Jay said), yet it's just a more positive outlook.

In the end it probably has no effect on the outcome. It will likely take me just as many tries and as much work to send a route whether I went into it with the faint hope of onsighting it as if I went into it with a redpointing mindset.

I do have to say though, the ONE way where I could see the onsighting mindset being useful would be if I were on a hard route, nearing a hard section. If I did somehow manage to figure out the beta on the fly, I might push myself a little harder through that section, possibly getting it, than I might if I got to the section, thought "It's ok if this is hard, I'll just drop off and work for the redpoint. I'm never gonna get this route clean onsight anyway."

Perhaps pushing through that one section, because of the positive mindset, might really be a boon to my climbing the route in the end, as I think back and remember how I was able to do that one section cleanly that one time. Instead of having only memories of taking at that bolt, I'd remember that one time I moved through a couple hard moves past it, and know that I would be able to replicate it in the future at some point.

Anyway, that's just the way I go into climbing routes at my limit. If I do push through a couple more moves because I'm determined to onsight, instead of taking because I know I'm just working the redpoint, it's not really gonna derail the whole redpointing session/attempt. You'll maybe be on the rock for a few seconds longer, fall off, start the same as you would have if you had the redpoint mindset, and be on your way.

It really seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe sometimes I surprise myself, give myself some confidence, and send that route a few tries quicker than I would have otherwise.


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 4:03 PM
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

You don't have any interest in climbing through bolt two onto bolt 3, just to see if you can? Maybe the move that made it hard for the buddy giving you beta is really shitty at pinches, you're great at them, and the end of the first section uses a pinch? It may seem like a logical stopping place to him, a move he won't ever get past very easily, but to you, it would be better to just get as much of the route as you can easily climb done before you take the fall?

I'm honestly curious, is this the way you, and top climbers send their hardest routes? Or is this just something that people have adopted, and therefore assume is the best way to do it?


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 4:08 PM
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It's much more efficient to purposely not try and onsight a route you plan on projecting. There is so much less wasted effort. If the climber needs to have every move wired perfectly ("limit," after all), then I would imagine moves used in an on-sight attempt will have low retention compared to moves discovered while hangdogging. Moreover, it will be easier to remember what moves you used where when you're purposely breaking down the route.

If you climb half the route, fall, and forget everything you did...what's the purpose in that?

I get the feeling that you're talking about projects that take, say 2-3 attempts. In those cases, I'd agree with you. If I'm attempting a grade that I know will likely be more than four attempts, it'll be better to work it in the style we've been discussing.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:16 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 4:24 PM
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ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 17, 2011, 4:26 PM)


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 5:03 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.

Ok, that helps me understand why you might not be looking to send first try a bit. I've never really gotten on a route that I plan on spending "years" working. However, even on routes that are way above my head that I have gotten on, I still hold on to a faint hope that something ridiculous will happen, time while freeze, Chris T. Sharma will descend upon my shoulder, imbue me with his magical powers, and I'll pull off a miracle upset. That's probably just me being a hopeless optimist though.

I think Spike was right though that for a YEARS long project, It doesn't really matter how you approach the first attempt.

Out of curiosity, do you guys think that you become a better climber by spending your time working/onsighting routes that are AT your limit for a year, or picking a route miles above your limit and working that route almost exclusively for a year? I feel like with the one route, you may have a high number under your belt, but you'd become the better overall climber by climbing lots of routes at your limit. Probably personal preference though, and personal goals.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 5:22 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys think that you become a better climber by spending your time working/onsighting routes that are AT your limit for a year, or picking a route miles above your limit and working that route almost exclusively for a year? I feel like with the one route, you may have a high number under your belt, but you'd become the better overall climber by climbing lots of routes at your limit. Probably personal preference though, and personal goals.

If someone isn't training with periodization, then I think The Self Coached Climber has a great system with its pyramid (well, triangle) design. It's essentially a "checklist" for when you can proceed to the next grade. Your highest redpoint goes at the top, then the triangle goes down to three grades below it. Each grade it goes down should have more sends for the given grade.

For example:

12a (1 of them)
11d, 11d (2 of them)
11c, 11c, 11c, 11c (4 of them)
11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b (8 of them)

Once you have a 1,2,4,8 setup, you are "prepared" to move into the next grade with authority. Certainly you can go up before then, but redpoints will occur more quickly (in general) with this foundation.

Once the climber moves up, the next pyramid would look like this:

12b (1)
12a, 12a (2, one of them is the 12a from before)
11d, 11d, 11d, 11d (4, two of them are from before)
8x 11c (8, four are from before)

As for 11b, well, it's assumed that you'll continue to get on 11b's here and there for warm-ups an onsight attempts and whatnot, but you do not need to seek out new ones to add to the pyramid.

As for projecting a single route for an entire year. Well, unless you're only giving it a couple tries every few months, I think it's a bit silly. In a years time, the climber is definitely going to see technical and physical improvements that will allow them to climb the route. Thus, it's realistic to assume that if the climber had been spending more time on building a proper pyramid and giving themselves the foundation (mental and physical) that comes along with it, that they might have even sent the route earlier. I mean, when you think about it like this, it seems that the earlier attempts were essentially wasted efforts.

The reasoning behind it is that with the proper background, you could proceed through the "information gathering" phase (i.e., learning burns) much quicker.

In the end, it depends on what people prefer and how they get their enjoyment from climbing.


A-Bowl


Aug 17, 2011, 5:30 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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I wouldn't argue with Jay or the others about projecting. It seems they are pros at that arena since they have had so much practice not onsighting.

As far as toprope soloing goes, its another worthless argument. It seems highly dependent on the style of climbing... sportos are dissing it, cuz yeah, it's too overhung to do it on their climbs. It seems really common around the Flagstaff area mostly on vertical non wandering lines and is used all the time by hardman trying to dial hard/runout trad or on new routes. It is not an activity you see too many beginners out doing because it usually does come out of some deperation by serious climbers to milk time on the rock out of there busy schedules. You can bet that any sane, halfway social, hard climber has a partner lined up for the full days off.
Having a partner is much preferred and usually not too hard for new guys swinging leads on 10s. In fact don't new guys usually travel in large packs with the limiting factor being number of ropes not lack of belayers.

Sorry Redonkulus... actually wasn't trying to reply to you, just add some 2 cents to this monster thread.


(This post was edited by A-Bowl on Aug 17, 2011, 5:40 PM)


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 5:34 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

In reply to:
You don't have any interest in climbing through bolt two onto bolt 3, just to see if you can?

I have an interest in learning the most efficient sequences on the route, so that I can send the route in as few tries as possible.

In reply to:
I'm honestly curious, is this the way you, and top climbers send their hardest routes?

In sport climbing? Yeah, pretty much. Dan and Doug, the SCC boys, have written a whole book on the topic, which is rumored to be available in October.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 5:54 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 6:08 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue

Fixed that world-class cheesetit of yours.

No, it's not a question of being afraid of falls. You'll take more falls doing what I suggest than doing what you do. The point is, while still learning the moves, never climb to muscle failure. The additional time you'll have to spend recovering will reduce your total time working the route. That's why it's so inefficient.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 6:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue

Fixed that world-class cheesetit of yours.

No, it's not a question of being afraid of falls. You'll take more falls doing what I suggest than doing what you do. The point is, while still learning the moves, never climb to muscle failure. The additional time you'll have to spend recovering will reduce your total time working the route. That's why it's so inefficient.

Jay

Dunno what a cheesetit is, but it's a tasty image. I get ya now, you just wanna expend as little energy as possible while getting to experience all of the moves on the route, no?


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 7:29 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.

Well, in theory.. if it is within your physical limit then a on sight is on the cards. If a person has the mental ability (lets just call it technique?) then they have a small chance.. that chance obviusly increases the further below limit the climb is. IMO anything at or below your limit is not a project. I would more define that tactic resulting in a send as some kind advanced flash beta. But hell, for peace sake lets call it a mini project ;p.

Only reason i don't see much middle ground between on sight and project is because a friend of mine is just a fucking animal for on sights. He is very good at it, ive seen him on sight 7b when 7c was a project to him. I'd say if he had more time to climb he would be one of those nuts going around on sighting E6+.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 9:38 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue

Fixed that world-class cheesetit of yours.

No, it's not a question of being afraid of falls. You'll take more falls doing what I suggest than doing what you do. The point is, while still learning the moves, never climb to muscle failure. The additional time you'll have to spend recovering will reduce your total time working the route. That's why it's so inefficient.

Jay

Dunno what a cheesetit is, but it's a tasty image.

Look at the quoting in your previous message. That's cheesetitting.

In reply to:
I get ya now, you just wanna expend as little energy as possible while getting to experience all of the moves on the route, no?

Pretty much, yeah. But the underlying reason is that getting pumped reduces the quantity and quality of the work you can do for the rest of the day. If you can avoid getting pumped on an early burn, then you should be able to get in either more burns, higher-quality burns, or both during the rest of the day. You might even be able to get a same-day redpoint that you couldn't have otherwise.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 18, 2011, 9:48 AM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Fair enough, I'll give it a try sometime. I rarely get on routes that are 3 or 4 routes above my max, so I've never really had the opportunity or need to work a route in that manner.


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