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jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

I tend to break red point projects into three general ranges based the climber's skill at using red point tactics and the route's difficulty in relation to the climber's consistent flash level. Assuming that a climber has well developed stamina, is good at memorizing movement, and has well refined red point tactics a general framework might look like this:

1) Quick red points:These are routes that are 1 - 2 letter grades harder than the climber's consistent flash level and the climber can easily do them in a day as they take 1 - 4 tries. For routes in this range the goal in the first burn is to learn everything you need to know about the route for the red point. The goal of the second attempt is to get the red point. If you don't get the red point then figure out why, make corrections and then get the red point on the third try.

2) Moderate length red points: 3 - 4 letter grades above consistent flash level. These project can take 5 - 12 tries over the course of 1 - 3 days. They consist of several burns specifically dedicated to learning and memorizing the details of the route, the sequences, the moves, the clips, the rests, pacing, etc. In this range there are usually at least 3 learning burns and 2 - 4 attempts at the actual red point.

3) Long term projects. These are routes that are 5 or more letter grades above the climber's current flash level. They can take 15 - 20 or more tries over extended periods of time. Because the climber is working at a level high above his base level of skill in terms of fitness and movement success can be elusive, and the amount that can be achieved in a day is diminished. It can take many tries to do the basic learning necessary for an eventual red point, and it can be very hard to know when to switch from learning burns to red point burns. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

Definitely the most useful post in the thread, Douglas, as your posts generally are. But I don't think you can keep Category 4, Toprope Solo Projects, a secret from the rest of the world any longer.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 3, 2011, 11:37 AM)


Bag11s


Jun 3, 2011, 12:22 PM
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right- projects, projects, and projects. I like your red pointing tactical summary, Douglas Hunter, and do much the same thing, with the shape formerly unanalyzed.


DouglasHunter


Jun 3, 2011, 12:40 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink


spikeddem


Jun 3, 2011, 12:50 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

Will top-rope soloing my low ball boulder problems help me send? I don't really have time for waiting to send. If I could just send today that'd be great.


ceebo


Jun 3, 2011, 3:09 PM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.


jt512


Jun 3, 2011, 3:32 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.

Qouted for posterity.

Jay


spikeddem


Jun 3, 2011, 4:00 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
Jay,

As usual you see right through me. The entire point of my post was to draw attention away from the ultimate method of working a route for red point. But now that the cat is out of the bag, I've got a book to re-write. Wink

You guys should sit around a circular table, smoke some Cubans (literally?) and talk about the current economics, or lack of. Was it your foot or the cat jay, sure rhymes.

Qouted for posterity.

Jay

Fairly sure that English is his first language even. If it's not, then I understand.


Nipple


Jun 4, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Re: [JAB] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Not to mention...

In reply to:
Dave MacLeod has been making good progress recently on the 500m super climb, the Longhope Route at St Johns Head, Hoy, despite atrocious rainy weather and also being vomited on by angry seabirds.

Dave reported on his blog that, in spite of the rain, he had managed to complete his recent objective of linking on a shunt “the big pitch”, a series of headwall cracks speculated to be around 8c/8c+.

John Arran and Dave Turnbull made the first free ascent of the Longhope Route in 1997 but avoided this headwall by a four-pitch deviation up grooves to the left. Dave now plans to free the entirety of the route, which, even without the hardest section, still amounts to 23 pitches of serious, loose and physically demanding climbing with a top pitch of F8a.

From http://www.climber.co.uk/...p;c=7&cate=__137

How invested do you really want to be in this pet hypothesis of yours? Practically every redpoint project ever projected has been projected with a partner. The advantages of this over toprope soloing are numerous and patently obvious, which is why that's the way they're done by almost everyone almost every time. Do you really think being able to point to a rare exception is even remotely good evidence that "the best way to really project is to top rope solo"?

I haven't bothered to look up your example, but look at bear-brainer's. Tommy works some move on TR solo because the weather sucks so much he can't find a belayer. Do you think Tommy routinely works his projects solo? If not, then why not, if TR soloing is, in fact, "the best way to really project"?

Jay

I don't understand why you get so worked up over this. TR solo is definitely more than some obscure technique for rare situations. In some cases (like the ones we posted) it is the best solution, in some cases it's not.


People have gottten worked up because someone suggested the absolutely terrible idea of top rope soloing to a beginner who was interested in how to work routes for a Red Point. There was no reason to offer this suggestion to a beginner. Yes, Leo and Tommy top rope solo their projects, but that is because they are very experienced, are many pitches up, their projects require tons of work, and no one wants to be their belay bitchs all the time. As a result, they have to work on these routes solo. A beginner asking this question has no need to know of such techniques. With time, once he has become proficient at climbing, he can then explore the viability of top rope soloing to red point a project. Beginners are only going to get themselves in trouble figuring out their top rope soloing system, as some have point out, this has led to accidents in the past.


ghisino


Jun 14, 2011, 4:04 AM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 6:59 AM
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Re: [ghisino] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.


ghisino


Jun 14, 2011, 9:23 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

of course "100 tries" was an exxageration, at least for sport climbs (ticking 100 attempts on a boulder problem can easily happen in "just" one season!).

as for my be-open-to-beta-changes argument, well, it also holds for the choice between beta "a" and beta "b" coming from two different climbers...


long DG rambling drawing circles around the same subject, among many others, for the sake of making a short point long...:
http://www.udinigallery.com/index.php?Itemid=117&g2_itemId=16849&option=com_gallery2


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jun 14, 2011, 9:24 AM)


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 9:27 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 9:52 AM
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 10:53 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.

Fine, someone else will have to explain it to me, because I legitimately do not understand what it means to "break beta."


cfnubbler


Jun 14, 2011, 11:18 AM
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Re: [essay] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
JAB wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JAB wrote:
Learner wrote:
...do you devote an entire day to this one route and getting its sequence down? Or, is your practice on it more spread out, working on it little by little on different days?

What is your strategy(s) for for redpointing a route that is entirely new to you?

Usually it sucks to belay someone hanging all over a route for hours. So the best way to really project is to top rope solo. Then you can spend the whole day on the same route. It goes without saying that you should take into account any other people wanting to climb the same route, and remove your gear for a while if so.

And it of course goes without saying as well, that you should only top rope solo if you are 100% sure what you are doing.

This is utterly lame advice.

Jay

Care to elaborate?


People who top-rope solo are social rejects who usually endanger themselves and others at the crag. If you can't find a friend to swap lead with there may be something more than just a problem with climbing. This has been my experience more than once. If you are such a basket case that you are gonna top rope solo a route instead of just try it, perhaps you should take up bouldering or running. This is very bad advice. Top rope soloing is a last ditch, end of the road, no one likes me sport. Avoid it.

You're right. I'm hopelessly lame and socially inept because I enjoy getting in 1500' of training and fun movement after work and still getting home in time to read my kids their bedtime stories.


healyje


Jun 14, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Rest, rest, send, next...

It really isn't that complicated.


Partner cracklover


Jun 14, 2011, 11:38 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ghisino wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:

3) Long term projects. Projects of this sort are best undertaken by those who are extremely fit, and have highly developed memorization and tactical skills.

i'd say "extremely experienced" rather than "extremely fit" , but i agree on the meat of this advice.

2 big issues with long term projects

1)Mental issues. Frustration. Getting accustomed to the idea that "you'll never do it".

2)Technical-tactical issues. First of all, your original beta is likely to be crap. You need to be aware of it and be open to change it even after 100 tries.
Something even worse can happen if you try too many times a move that you're far from doing. You might actually build an engram for the wrong execution of that move. This is especially true for technical moves that depend a lot on balance, body position, timing...
When figuring out hard cruxes, one should be especially aware of rest times between tries and of his/hers mental state. If the conditions are not there to make a better attempt than the one before, it's better not to try...or, 10 quality attempts are better than 20 trash ones...

IMO, if you're projecting a route that legitimately takes over 100 tries, you probably shouldn't be trying to come up with your own beta unless you can't find any from anyone else.

Why not?, i broke the crux ''beta'' on a route that took well over a year to send. Did it feel easier?, to me certainly.

You "broke the crux beta" ? What does that mean?

You are clearly showing signs of being a sheep on both accounts.

Yeah yeah, you don't get it.. i know. Just as well.

Fine, someone else will have to explain it to me, because I legitimately do not understand what it means to "break beta."

I'm guessing he means he figured out the right sequence that worked for him. No idea why he didn't say that. <shrug>

Of course, he may actually be proving your point. Had he taken the effort to track down the right beta, it may not have taken him over a year to send!

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO


spikeddem


Jun 14, 2011, 11:47 AM
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cracklover wrote:
I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO
I'm right in the same boat, and for the same reasons.


ceebo


Jun 14, 2011, 3:35 PM
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In reply to:
I'm guessing he means he figured out the right sequence that worked for him. No idea why he didn't say that. <shrug>

Of course, he may actually be proving your point. Had he taken the effort to track down the right beta, it may not have taken him over a year to send!

I almost always like to work the beta out for myself. The exception being when I'm working on something at my absolute upper limit. Then I'll take whatever I can get.

The reason is simple - for stuff at my upper limit, I don't know what I don't know. That is to say, I don't have the *feel* for those kinds of moves. I will typically take one or two burns to learn as much as I can, and then solicit advice. I won't necessarily take it verbatim, but it's so much better than wasting time and effort being totally stupid.

GO

Wow, like understanding ''breaking better'' took the same brain cells as cracking the davinci code. Maybe i should have said ''fixed the beta''. I guess being English i inherited the cultural sway toward terms of negativity.

It took over a year to send because it was a entire grade above my consistent max when i started it with intent of sending. for a year or 2 prior to that i could barely get off the ground.

Your last comment is interesting though, don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.


Partner cracklover


Jun 15, 2011, 8:09 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO


ceebo


Jun 15, 2011, 9:52 AM
Post #97 of 127 (2695 views)
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Re: [cracklover] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO

I meant mandatory in the sense making fundamental personal ''problem solve'' improvement. Unless their is always somebody at hand to give beta then that person will seriously struggle when it comes to projecting alone.

I would much rather go through that phase on high 7's than try to go through it on high 8's. The learning process of knowing what is right and what is wrong is something you get from time spent actually doing things wrong.. as to define right. The further away from human limits you are while drilling that the easier it ''should'' be from the mental side of things. Being told moves that required pure blood and sweat to figure out in no way helps for the bigger picture. For that one send sure.. but i'm thinking way way ahead of that. Would you rather be working a 9a that may take 5 years to finally send or climb a few hundred 7's and 8s?. That i suppose depends on what reasons a person is motivated to climb.

I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

You'r analogy is kinda wrong though, as far as my body is concerned their was no wheel until i invented it. I can tell a beginner and even show them how to use a drop knee.. but their body has no idea why it has to do that.. because it has not been in the wrong position enough times to calculate and understand it is easier.

Also, doing things the wrong way can still be the ''right'' way on another route and another move that can be tapped into later. So it is not exactly wasted energy.


spikeddem


Jun 15, 2011, 12:04 PM
Post #98 of 127 (2671 views)
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Posts: 6319

Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
cracklover wrote:
ceebo wrote:
don't you feel being told beta totally removes the mandatory learning process?. After all.. the person who first sent a route had no such luxury.. perhaps that's why they typically send harder and harder routes?.

I don't know what you mean by "totally removes the mandatory learning process". How can you totally remove something that's mandatory?

Does getting beta diminish one aspect of learning? Absolutely. Figuring a move out on your own gives you a deeper understanding of the kinesthetics. It kind of teaches your body to recognize the situation and understand the "why" in a way that might help recognize the same situation more quickly next time.

However, there is a trade-off involved between time and energy spent working something out, and the additional gains you get after. Reinventing every single wheel is ridiculous. If I can figure out 99.9% of a climb that's at the edge of my ability by myself in a couple burns, and then get one key piece of beta that might take me 20 more tries to figure out because I've never done a move like that in that situation, it's just being smart.

I typically attempt to OS every climb I do, and I learn a lot because of it, and am a better OS climber because I try. And on routes that should be within my ability level, I will typically resist any attempts by others to give beta until I manage to send on my own. But I make exceptions.

The first ever 12 I did, I had someone spraying me down with move-by-move beta as I did it. It helped. I have no problem with training wheels when moving into a new realm.

GO

I meant mandatory in the sense making fundamental personal ''problem solve'' improvement. Unless their is always somebody at hand to give beta then that person will seriously struggle when it comes to projecting alone.

I would much rather go through that phase on high 7's than try to go through it on high 8's. The learning process of knowing what is right and what is wrong is something you get from time spent actually doing things wrong.. as to define right. The further away from human limits you are while drilling that the easier it ''should'' be from the mental side of things. Being told moves that required pure blood and sweat to figure out in no way helps for the bigger picture. For that one send sure.. but i'm thinking way way ahead of that. Would you rather be working a 9a that may take 5 years to finally send or climb a few hundred 7's and 8s?. That i suppose depends on what reasons a person is motivated to climb.

I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

You'r analogy is kinda wrong though, as far as my body is concerned their was no wheel until i invented it. I can tell a beginner and even show them how to use a drop knee.. but their body has no idea why it has to do that.. because it has not been in the wrong position enough times to calculate and understand it is easier.

Also, doing things the wrong way can still be the ''right'' way on another route and another move that can be tapped into later. So it is not exactly wasted energy.

You didn't understand his post at all. He perfectly answered your question.


ghisino


Jun 16, 2011, 1:41 AM
Post #99 of 127 (2633 views)
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Posts: 249

Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jun 16, 2011, 4:36 AM
Post #100 of 127 (2622 views)
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Registered: Sep 11, 2008
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Re: [ghisino] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...

Well you do have to admit, reading this thread probably made you both stupider and, in all likelihood, a worse climber. I certainly feel that way.

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