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ceebo


Jun 16, 2011, 6:01 AM
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Re: [ghisino] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
so in the bigger picture things like instructors, videos of top athletes, training togethwer with stronger athletes than you are detrimental to any sport.

and wait, the same applies to anything else : whenever you learn something from other people's experience you are taking a detrimental shortcut, in the bigger picture

i've always understood that discussing beta with other climbers somehow falls in the same category as the above examples, but thats just me...

Notice how you talk as though you will always be the learner. Can you never perceive yourself to be the teacher? at least to yourself. You do not have to be anywhere near 9a or ''athlete'' status before you can do that. In fact that is probably a result of those who could.

Please do not take it out of context either, i did not say when ever you learn ANYTHING it is bad. Ofc their is the beginning phase where it is absolutely logical to learn all the basics of technique and so on from other people. But after that a person should be striving to be self sufficient. At least to the point where they can send a project route with no outside input. That IMO is the reward in climbing.

Also, working a route at the same time with a partner and discussing solutions. Both people are still trying all the moves in trial and error. They are both still exposed to the solving conditions. It is not quite the same as working something alone with no help but it's far more beneficial to both than being given beta.

I want to give you a example of the ''3 step'' process i use.

When teaching new climbers the first step is learning them just a small handful of technique moves like sharing hands or feet etc.

The second step i will pick out a route that i know requires a few of the techniques they have most recently been shown. Then i ask them to climb the route and legitimately utilise those moves within that route. They know they have a few moves that are applicable to the route, so if they do get stuck they run those through their head and work out if one is viable. The only time i will step in to say something is if they do a move in the right way (well done) or the wrong way. On doing something the wrong way, they will be lowered to the move and have to repeat it in another manner.. building a base of what feels right and wrong to them.

The 3rd step is reminding them to carry on that process alone in their ''free time'' climbing. Every time they get stuck they process a bunch of moves in their head and figure out if any apply r can be modified. And also never to be shy of retrying even completed moves in another way.

Obviously the steps need repeating session to session with new moves, or refining old ones.. but the goal is that within 6 month to a year these climbers will have all the foundations of technique/solving they need.

If i instead just gave them beta every time they got stuck they may have a short term spike in grade performance.. but later down the line it is not helping them.

Do you really think a climber is capable of reaching their potential if they still rely on any sort of help in terms of figuring out a move?. Again, it comes down to short term vs long term goals.


Partner cracklover


Jun 16, 2011, 8:10 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

--George Bernard Shaw

Cheers,

GO


ceebo


Jun 16, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Re: [cracklover] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

--George Bernard Shaw

Cheers,

GO

Did you really have to give the rest beta on that?.


Send_Or_Spank


Jun 28, 2011, 6:29 AM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Ceebo,

Here is beta you need, regardless of the risk against mandatory learning (pretty sure you're well beyond that point).

there - in, at or to that place - E.g. Could you go spray over there instead?
they're - short form of they are - E.g. They're laughing at the sack that ate dirt top rope soloing.
their - determiner belonging to them - E.g. What top rop solo setup is their favorite?

Cheers


ceebo


Jun 28, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Re: [Send_Or_Spank] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Send_Or_Spank wrote:
Ceebo,

Here is beta you need, regardless of the risk against mandatory learning (pretty sure you're well beyond that point).

there - in, at or to that place - E.g. Could you go spray over there instead?
they're - short form of they are - E.g. They're laughing at the sack that ate dirt top rope soloing.
their - determiner belonging to them - E.g. What top rop solo setup is their favorite?

Cheers

Well, i don't care who i wrestle with or who is watching. You?.


essay


Jun 29, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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There are better sites for you Ceebo if you want to do some man wrestling, perhaps the man who breeds with bears can direct you. I prefer the rock variety.

In the future could you please shorten your rants, I love being amused but you do tend to drone.


Dragonclimber


Aug 17, 2011, 9:44 AM
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Re: [Learner] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Can someone help me out with this climbing lingo? I am new to climbing and trying to keep up. Whats the difference between "onsighting" "flashing" "sending" and "redpointing"?


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Re: [Dragonclimber] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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Now this should be a new topic, I am sure we can all have a good fight over the meaning of Redpoint, Flash, Onsight, and Pinkpoint. I think you should begin a new thread if you really want to se it broken down.


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 1:27 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...

You will never on sight a route that is above your current limit. That is the reason ''smart'' climbers put their thinking cap on and ''project''. If you really think you have any kind of shot at it.. you are delusional or have serious ego problems. You clearly do not understand the difference, tactics and motivation to on sight or project, nor your own limit.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 3:37 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 3:55 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean. I may only get one move up it, but I damn well don't go into it only planning to get one move up...

You will never on sight a route that is above your current limit. That is the reason ''smart'' climbers put their thinking cap on and ''project''. If you really think you have any kind of shot at it.. you are delusional or have serious ego problems. You clearly do not understand the difference, tactics and motivation to on sight or project, nor your own limit.

I understand it's highly unlikely/nigh impossible that you're gonna onsight it, but it still feels weird to me that you would start up a route, picking a place where you will fall. Couldn't you just aim for the top, and then when you DO fall, continue to work on the redpoint from there? It's really no less "efficient" (as Jay said), yet it's just a more positive outlook.

In the end it probably has no effect on the outcome. It will likely take me just as many tries and as much work to send a route whether I went into it with the faint hope of onsighting it as if I went into it with a redpointing mindset.

I do have to say though, the ONE way where I could see the onsighting mindset being useful would be if I were on a hard route, nearing a hard section. If I did somehow manage to figure out the beta on the fly, I might push myself a little harder through that section, possibly getting it, than I might if I got to the section, thought "It's ok if this is hard, I'll just drop off and work for the redpoint. I'm never gonna get this route clean onsight anyway."

Perhaps pushing through that one section, because of the positive mindset, might really be a boon to my climbing the route in the end, as I think back and remember how I was able to do that one section cleanly that one time. Instead of having only memories of taking at that bolt, I'd remember that one time I moved through a couple hard moves past it, and know that I would be able to replicate it in the future at some point.

Anyway, that's just the way I go into climbing routes at my limit. If I do push through a couple more moves because I'm determined to onsight, instead of taking because I know I'm just working the redpoint, it's not really gonna derail the whole redpointing session/attempt. You'll maybe be on the rock for a few seconds longer, fall off, start the same as you would have if you had the redpoint mindset, and be on your way.

It really seems like a no-brainer to me. Maybe sometimes I surprise myself, give myself some confidence, and send that route a few tries quicker than I would have otherwise.


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 4:03 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

You don't have any interest in climbing through bolt two onto bolt 3, just to see if you can? Maybe the move that made it hard for the buddy giving you beta is really shitty at pinches, you're great at them, and the end of the first section uses a pinch? It may seem like a logical stopping place to him, a move he won't ever get past very easily, but to you, it would be better to just get as much of the route as you can easily climb done before you take the fall?

I'm honestly curious, is this the way you, and top climbers send their hardest routes? Or is this just something that people have adopted, and therefore assume is the best way to do it?


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 4:08 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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It's much more efficient to purposely not try and onsight a route you plan on projecting. There is so much less wasted effort. If the climber needs to have every move wired perfectly ("limit," after all), then I would imagine moves used in an on-sight attempt will have low retention compared to moves discovered while hangdogging. Moreover, it will be easier to remember what moves you used where when you're purposely breaking down the route.

If you climb half the route, fall, and forget everything you did...what's the purpose in that?

I get the feeling that you're talking about projects that take, say 2-3 attempts. In those cases, I'd agree with you. If I'm attempting a grade that I know will likely be more than four attempts, it'll be better to work it in the style we've been discussing.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:16 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 4:24 PM
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Re: [ceebo] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 17, 2011, 4:26 PM)


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 5:03 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.

Ok, that helps me understand why you might not be looking to send first try a bit. I've never really gotten on a route that I plan on spending "years" working. However, even on routes that are way above my head that I have gotten on, I still hold on to a faint hope that something ridiculous will happen, time while freeze, Chris T. Sharma will descend upon my shoulder, imbue me with his magical powers, and I'll pull off a miracle upset. That's probably just me being a hopeless optimist though.

I think Spike was right though that for a YEARS long project, It doesn't really matter how you approach the first attempt.

Out of curiosity, do you guys think that you become a better climber by spending your time working/onsighting routes that are AT your limit for a year, or picking a route miles above your limit and working that route almost exclusively for a year? I feel like with the one route, you may have a high number under your belt, but you'd become the better overall climber by climbing lots of routes at your limit. Probably personal preference though, and personal goals.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 5:22 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys think that you become a better climber by spending your time working/onsighting routes that are AT your limit for a year, or picking a route miles above your limit and working that route almost exclusively for a year? I feel like with the one route, you may have a high number under your belt, but you'd become the better overall climber by climbing lots of routes at your limit. Probably personal preference though, and personal goals.

If someone isn't training with periodization, then I think The Self Coached Climber has a great system with its pyramid (well, triangle) design. It's essentially a "checklist" for when you can proceed to the next grade. Your highest redpoint goes at the top, then the triangle goes down to three grades below it. Each grade it goes down should have more sends for the given grade.

For example:

12a (1 of them)
11d, 11d (2 of them)
11c, 11c, 11c, 11c (4 of them)
11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b, 11b (8 of them)

Once you have a 1,2,4,8 setup, you are "prepared" to move into the next grade with authority. Certainly you can go up before then, but redpoints will occur more quickly (in general) with this foundation.

Once the climber moves up, the next pyramid would look like this:

12b (1)
12a, 12a (2, one of them is the 12a from before)
11d, 11d, 11d, 11d (4, two of them are from before)
8x 11c (8, four are from before)

As for 11b, well, it's assumed that you'll continue to get on 11b's here and there for warm-ups an onsight attempts and whatnot, but you do not need to seek out new ones to add to the pyramid.

As for projecting a single route for an entire year. Well, unless you're only giving it a couple tries every few months, I think it's a bit silly. In a years time, the climber is definitely going to see technical and physical improvements that will allow them to climb the route. Thus, it's realistic to assume that if the climber had been spending more time on building a proper pyramid and giving themselves the foundation (mental and physical) that comes along with it, that they might have even sent the route earlier. I mean, when you think about it like this, it seems that the earlier attempts were essentially wasted efforts.

The reasoning behind it is that with the proper background, you could proceed through the "information gathering" phase (i.e., learning burns) much quicker.

In the end, it depends on what people prefer and how they get their enjoyment from climbing.


A-Bowl


Aug 17, 2011, 5:30 PM
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I wouldn't argue with Jay or the others about projecting. It seems they are pros at that arena since they have had so much practice not onsighting.

As far as toprope soloing goes, its another worthless argument. It seems highly dependent on the style of climbing... sportos are dissing it, cuz yeah, it's too overhung to do it on their climbs. It seems really common around the Flagstaff area mostly on vertical non wandering lines and is used all the time by hardman trying to dial hard/runout trad or on new routes. It is not an activity you see too many beginners out doing because it usually does come out of some deperation by serious climbers to milk time on the rock out of there busy schedules. You can bet that any sane, halfway social, hard climber has a partner lined up for the full days off.
Having a partner is much preferred and usually not too hard for new guys swinging leads on 10s. In fact don't new guys usually travel in large packs with the limiting factor being number of ropes not lack of belayers.

Sorry Redonkulus... actually wasn't trying to reply to you, just add some 2 cents to this monster thread.


(This post was edited by A-Bowl on Aug 17, 2011, 5:40 PM)


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 5:34 PM
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redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
I personally can't understand the idea of wanting to on sight everything. In the past where you kinda HAD too or you die fucking ofc. But now these days?.. we have the luxury to get past that and find out as an individual what our true personal limit is. I don't know why anybody would not want to find it.

Is this really your mindset? You get on a route that is new to you thinking "I don't want to get this the first try." I can't imagine that. Even if it's way above my level, I'm still trying as hard as I can to get it clean.

That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

In reply to:
You don't have any interest in climbing through bolt two onto bolt 3, just to see if you can?

I have an interest in learning the most efficient sequences on the route, so that I can send the route in as few tries as possible.

In reply to:
I'm honestly curious, is this the way you, and top climbers send their hardest routes?

In sport climbing? Yeah, pretty much. Dan and Doug, the SCC boys, have written a whole book on the topic, which is rumored to be available in October.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 5:54 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
ceebo wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 6:08 PM
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Re: [redonkulus] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue

Fixed that world-class cheesetit of yours.

No, it's not a question of being afraid of falls. You'll take more falls doing what I suggest than doing what you do. The point is, while still learning the moves, never climb to muscle failure. The additional time you'll have to spend recovering will reduce your total time working the route. That's why it's so inefficient.

Jay


redonkulus


Aug 17, 2011, 6:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
That's inefficient. If it's way above your on-sight level, there is no point in trying to on-sight it; you're just wasting time and energy that you could invest in working the route in sections to learn the moves.

Jay

So Jay, do you just divide the route into sections at the bottom, that you know you must work on? Like, "I'll try and climb from ground to bolt 2, then I'll rest, then I'll lower and do that again, then I'll climb from bolt 2 to bolt 3.5, then repeat 3 times...etc."?

No, that would be about the most inefficient way to work a route that I can imagine. It could take a dozen burns before you ever even got to sample the top of the route. Besides, your budget for leaver biners would have to be enormous.

Are you the only sport climber left who hasn't heard of hangdogging? The idea on your first few burns is to use a little energy as possible while learning as much as possible about the route. You work a section, and then hang at a bolt before getting pumped. But you should usually try and go to the anchors, because on redpoint you'll be most fatigued at the top of the route, and so you'll have to have the top of the route wired.

Jay

Ah, from the way you put it earlier, it seemed like you were saying that you wanted to work a section multiple times, until you had it wired, rather than climbing as far on the flash attempt as possible. I might be combining a bit of Spike's reply with that one, my bad. If you only work your way bolt to bolt once, what's the difference? I find that I tend to remember moves just as well when I've climbed straight through three sections as I would if I've climbed three sections once each, resting at the bolt in between. If I get to a section I can't do, I'll fall, and have to start working it from the last bolt again anyway, same as you would do had you gotten to that bolt and rested.

I think you guys are just afraid to take falls...Tongue

Fixed that world-class cheesetit of yours.

No, it's not a question of being afraid of falls. You'll take more falls doing what I suggest than doing what you do. The point is, while still learning the moves, never climb to muscle failure. The additional time you'll have to spend recovering will reduce your total time working the route. That's why it's so inefficient.

Jay

Dunno what a cheesetit is, but it's a tasty image. I get ya now, you just wanna expend as little energy as possible while getting to experience all of the moves on the route, no?


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 7:29 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] So, there's a route you want to redpoint... [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redonkulus wrote:
Oh and I should add, I've maybe been a little wrong to say onsight. It certainly would be stupid to refuse beta on a route that's above your limit. Does me saying that I go into climbing a route with a flash as a goal change anything?

No, tbh your still missing the point. Some people (like me) love to find a route that will take months.. maybe years to climb. Are joy is in working it out.. dedicating.. and getting attatched to it like a damn family member. The point is not to climb it first time.. it is the exact opposit, and then some.

In trad climbing ok sure.. i go for on sight every time. But that is because i simply do not wish to take a fall when their are 5 ledges to bounce off. The result of that.. so far (untill i feel 100% confident in my placements), is climbing stuff i would not even consider a warm up.

Lol, ceebo, that's what I'd call "beyond" your limit, not at your limit. The purpose of planning on bolt-to-bolting a route is to do fast redpoints of a route near the edge or at the edge of your limit. If you're going to spend three months on a route, what's one wasted effort (i.e., a flash/onsight attempt) as a percent of the total effort?

If I think a route might take 2-3 attempts (beyond the first), then there's a chance I can do it in a day if I properly work it on my first attempt, rather than trying to give it an onsight attempt, which would sap lots of energy for later attempts.

Edit: I think there's a bit of disparity between this post and my last one. I have decided that what might be the key is whether or not it's a local route. If you only have a weekend or a few days to send a route (or a selection of routes), then every attempt matters more. If you can drive an hour to the crag, then, IMO, it matters a bit less.

Well, in theory.. if it is within your physical limit then a on sight is on the cards. If a person has the mental ability (lets just call it technique?) then they have a small chance.. that chance obviusly increases the further below limit the climb is. IMO anything at or below your limit is not a project. I would more define that tactic resulting in a send as some kind advanced flash beta. But hell, for peace sake lets call it a mini project ;p.

Only reason i don't see much middle ground between on sight and project is because a friend of mine is just a fucking animal for on sights. He is very good at it, ive seen him on sight 7b when 7c was a project to him. I'd say if he had more time to climb he would be one of those nuts going around on sighting E6+.

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