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MS1


Jun 10, 2011, 12:41 PM
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Re: [jt512] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?


patrickh


Jun 10, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.


saint_john


Jun 10, 2011, 1:02 PM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

That study is mentioned in this Radiolab episode: http://www.radiolab.org/.../limits-of-the-body/

I did a VERY hilly, 90 minute bike ride yesterday evening in high humidity and 92 degree heat. I drank Gatorade (I usually drink h2o when I ride) and felt much stronger than I usually do during a bike ride.


(This post was edited by saint_john on Jun 10, 2011, 1:07 PM)


MS1


Jun 10, 2011, 1:04 PM
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Re: [patrickh] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.


MS1


Jun 10, 2011, 1:05 PM
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Re: [saint_john] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Yep, that's the one. Amusingly enough, I heard it as a podcast while training for a long distance ride with a former RAAM champion.


ceebo


Jun 10, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 10, 2011, 2:48 PM)


Learner


Jun 10, 2011, 6:34 PM
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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.

They didn't even swallow the drink. All they did is rinse it around in their mouth, then spit it out. So, these studies don't actually have to do with drinking a sugar drink, only rinsing them around in your mouth then spitting them out. This makes them quite profound, because the first study suggests that you could increase performance without even swallowing anything.

The first study found this affect by which, if you are on an empty stomache and rinse sugar water around in your mouth, then spit it out, performance will increase compared to if you had not. The second study found that if you had eaten before doing this, the affect disappeared. It only happened on an empty stomache.

I would bet if you have a sugar drink (ex., Gatorade or Powerade) and swallow it, it will always have an affect, though the more empty your stomache is before you drink it, the larger that affect. That is, I think that swallowing these drinks will increase blood glucose and after it has absorbed (5-15 minutes later) you will perform better. This would support drinking them between pitches.

Personally, I think these drinks are way too thick the way they come. I like to mix them half and half with water, then use that as my source of hydration.


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 9:36 PM
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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
And how long would it typically take to replenish some/all gluco?. In other words are all these drinks and so just a con or do they actually actively help you maintain workload?.

If you're actually exercising at an intensity and duration where you're depleting glycogen, then a properly formulated sport drink helps hydration and repletion of glycogen. But we're talking all-day continuous climbing in the heat, not a 3-hour gym workout.

Assuming your last sentence was not intended as some form of insult.. any training session (say 1-2 hours) will not need nor benefit from energy drinks?.

Nvm, ty learner.

Why the fuck did you ask me a direct question if you were just going to blow off my answer?

Jay


jt512


Jun 10, 2011, 10:01 PM
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Re: [patrickh] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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patrickh wrote:
altelis wrote:
There are certainly others with much more expertise in this, but my understanding is that while there will be some protein used as a source for gluconeogenesis, you're body starts going after your fat stores to a much greater degree before it really starts going after muscle. After all, that's primarily what the fat stores are there for...

You're absolutely correct.

Our body actually has a fairly limited supply store for CHO. . . . If we don't burn fat when our glycogen stores are empty, we'd never be able to lose all that fat.

Why are you bringing glycogen stores into a statement about burning fat? We burn fat all the time, and we almost never deplete our body's stores of glycogen. Depletion of glycogen is not necessary, nor even important, for burning fat.

Jay


MS1


Jun 11, 2011, 8:32 AM
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Re: [ceebo] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.

I'm not an expert, and I can't access a full-text version of the paper (only an abstract), but it looks like the mouth-rinse effect doesn't happen if you have recently eaten a decent-sized meal. But because I can't read the paper, I can't tell you what "recent" and "decent-sized" means in this context. So, when in doubt, drinking some carbs might help, and it won't hurt unless it interferes with your ability to maintain an appropriate climbing weight. That, at least, is my take.


Learner


Jun 11, 2011, 12:27 PM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.

I'm not an expert, and I can't access a full-text version of the paper (only an abstract), but it looks like the mouth-rinse effect doesn't happen if you have recently eaten a decent-sized meal. But because I can't read the paper, I can't tell you what "recent" and "decent-sized" means in this context. So, when in doubt, drinking some carbs might help, and it won't hurt unless it interferes with your ability to maintain an appropriate climbing weight. That, at least, is my take.

The only problem I have with what you just posted is this part in bold.These studies had nothing to do with the affect of drinking (consuming) carbs. We can't make any statement about the affect of drinking a sugar drink based on these studies. You can't draw a valid conclusion about actually drinking the carbs from a study that only involved rinsing them in your mouth. These studies only attempted to trigger the carb receptors in the mouth, which is what they were invesigating. They wanted to know the influence that triggering those receptors would have, even without having anyone drink anything. They have nothing to do with drinking anything. Please read my last reply to Ceebo if you haven't.

What can we conclude that these studies suggest? We can say that if you haven't eaten for a while and don't want to consume anything (for some odd reason), occasionally swishing a sugar drink around in your mouth then spitting it out may help your performance. We can also conclude that by triggering the receptors alone (without even consuming anything), we may trigger something in the brain that disinhibits our ability to perform as well as we can. Merely triggering these receptors can increase your performance, which is profound.

Since the participants didn't swallow, the carbs didn't enter the body and get assimilated. However, if you were to actually drink, and by this I mean consume, a sugar drink, the body would actually utilize the contents. This is far different than using the contents to merely trigger receptors, because when you drink something, it goes into your body gets absorbed, enters the bloodstream, cells, etc.... That didn't happen in these studies, because nobody swallowed anything.

Very interesting, nevertheless.


(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 11, 2011, 12:29 PM)


MS1


Jun 11, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Re: [Learner] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
MS1 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.

I'm not an expert, and I can't access a full-text version of the paper (only an abstract), but it looks like the mouth-rinse effect doesn't happen if you have recently eaten a decent-sized meal. But because I can't read the paper, I can't tell you what "recent" and "decent-sized" means in this context. So, when in doubt, drinking some carbs might help, and it won't hurt unless it interferes with your ability to maintain an appropriate climbing weight. That, at least, is my take.

The only problem I have with what you just posted is this part in bold.These studies had nothing to do with the affect of drinking (consuming) carbs. We can't make any statement about the affect of drinking a sugar drink based on these studies. You can't draw a valid conclusion about actually drinking the carbs from a study that only involved rinsing them in your mouth. These studies only attempted to trigger the carb receptors in the mouth, which is what they were invesigating. They wanted to know the influence that triggering those receptors would have, even without having anyone drink anything. They have nothing to do with drinking anything. Please read my last reply to Ceebo if you haven't.

What can we conclude that these studies suggest? We can say that if you haven't eaten for a while and don't want to consume anything (for some odd reason), occasionally swishing a sugar drink around in your mouth then spitting it out may help your performance. We can also conclude that by triggering the receptors alone (without even consuming anything), we may trigger something in the brain that disinhibits our ability to perform as well as we can. Merely triggering these receptors can increase your performance, which is profound.

Since the participants didn't swallow, the carbs didn't enter the body and get assimilated. However, if you were to actually drink, and by this I mean consume, a sugar drink, the body would actually utilize the contents. This is far different than using the contents to merely trigger receptors, because when you drink something, it goes into your body gets absorbed, enters the bloodstream, cells, etc.... That didn't happen in these studies, because nobody swallowed anything.

Very interesting, nevertheless.

1. Drinking carbs involves them passing through your mouth, so presumably you still get the benefit of the "swishing."

2. Hydration is good for you, too.

3. I would not want to climb with someone who was spitting out sports drink all over the place. As I've often said (though never before in this context), swallowing is just the polite thing to do.

So, in conclusion, I recommend swallowing, not spitting.


Learner


Jun 11, 2011, 1:50 PM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
Learner wrote:
MS1 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
MS1 wrote:
patrickh wrote:
MS1 wrote:
I don't have cites at hand, but I recall reading about a few studies where performance in a hard cycling test was increased by drinking sugar water. The interesting thing was that it still worked if you spit the water back out after swishing it around in your mouth. The idea behind this is that the body "holds back" some reserve energy stores by feeling fatigue before energy supplies are actually exhausted, and that consuming calories while exercising can induce your nervous system to push a little harder before the onset of fatigue signals.

I've definitely felt a difference in my own climbing sessions when I started drinking a sports drink instead of water. It could be a placebo effect, of course.

Have you heard of this research? If so, any opinion?

I'd definitely be interested in the study if you ever run across it again.

Another thing to consider is that most sports drinks also contain electrolytes which can aid in performance.

Heard about it on this episode of radiolab.

The study itself is here. Looking at it more closely (never bothered to look it up after hearing the radio show a few years ago), I see that the sample size was pretty small. Having bothered to look it up, I looked around a bit more, and saw that the effect wasn't replicated when the riders had eaten recently before riding.

Just to clear up, a sugar type drink will only have an effect (lets say boost) if you don't eat properly?. Or is this meaning that eating prior to it will remove any boost the drink would have had on normal performance?.

I'm not an expert, and I can't access a full-text version of the paper (only an abstract), but it looks like the mouth-rinse effect doesn't happen if you have recently eaten a decent-sized meal. But because I can't read the paper, I can't tell you what "recent" and "decent-sized" means in this context. So, when in doubt, drinking some carbs might help, and it won't hurt unless it interferes with your ability to maintain an appropriate climbing weight. That, at least, is my take.

The only problem I have with what you just posted is this part in bold.These studies had nothing to do with the affect of drinking (consuming) carbs. We can't make any statement about the affect of drinking a sugar drink based on these studies. You can't draw a valid conclusion about actually drinking the carbs from a study that only involved rinsing them in your mouth. These studies only attempted to trigger the carb receptors in the mouth, which is what they were invesigating. They wanted to know the influence that triggering those receptors would have, even without having anyone drink anything. They have nothing to do with drinking anything. Please read my last reply to Ceebo if you haven't.

What can we conclude that these studies suggest? We can say that if you haven't eaten for a while and don't want to consume anything (for some odd reason), occasionally swishing a sugar drink around in your mouth then spitting it out may help your performance. We can also conclude that by triggering the receptors alone (without even consuming anything), we may trigger something in the brain that disinhibits our ability to perform as well as we can. Merely triggering these receptors can increase your performance, which is profound.

Since the participants didn't swallow, the carbs didn't enter the body and get assimilated. However, if you were to actually drink, and by this I mean consume, a sugar drink, the body would actually utilize the contents. This is far different than using the contents to merely trigger receptors, because when you drink something, it goes into your body gets absorbed, enters the bloodstream, cells, etc.... That didn't happen in these studies, because nobody swallowed anything.

Very interesting, nevertheless.

1. Drinking carbs involves them passing through your mouth, so presumably you still get the benefit of the "swishing."

2. Hydration is good for you, too.

3. I would not want to climb with someone who was spitting out sports drink all over the place. As I've often said (though never before in this context), swallowing is just the polite thing to do.

So, in conclusion, I recommend swallowing, not spitting.

I agree. I wouldn't recommend that anyone spits out their sports drink. I'm just saying that from these particular studies, we can only draw conclusions on the affects of having it touch the inside of your mouth, not on how effective it is after you swallow it.

Personally, I advocate drinking Gatorade or Powerade (mixed half and half with water) between pitches. I think this is beneficial, and these studies do not address that issue because in that case you would swallow the drink while in these studies nobody swallowed the drink. We just need to keep in mind that there may be benefits to consuming these drinks between pitches that were not detected in these particular studies.

Anyways, I agree with you on your points in this particular reply, and I believe water is more important than anything. That's why I'd mix these drinks half and half with water then drink a good amount of of it.


altelis


Jun 12, 2011, 7:29 AM
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Re: [MS1] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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Dude, you aren't listening to what learner is saying.

He's not saying that, necessarily, spitting out the drink is more beneficial than swallowing it. He's just saying, based solely on the studies you've cited, you can't draw that conclusion.


MS1


Jun 13, 2011, 8:45 AM
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Re: [altelis] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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altelis wrote:
Dude, you aren't listening to what learner is saying.

He's not saying that, necessarily, spitting out the drink is more beneficial than swallowing it. He's just saying, based solely on the studies you've cited, you can't draw that conclusion.

Dude, I was listening. Concluding that swallowing works as well as spitting is an inference based on the studies themselves, on the most probable causal mechanism they posit, and on common sense. It's not beyond all doubt, but it seems reasonable to me.

If you want to poke holes in this chain of inferences, it seems to me that the weak link isn't that swallowing acts like spitting, it is that the demands of climbing and cycling are similar enough that we should expect results in one domain to show up in the other.


jt512


Jun 13, 2011, 8:51 PM
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Re: [patrickh] GLYCOGEN STORES: To Deplete or Not? [In reply to]
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patrickh wrote:
jt512 wrote:
[Your statement that a muscle will not burn fat while it has glucose available] is (a) false and (b) irrelevant to the subject.

It is not false and I feel that it was entirely relevant. Care to provide an example of when a muscle would burn FA while glycogen stores are full?

I haven't had time to address this properly because I have been traveling. Briefly, most of the body's cells burn fat most of the time. Muscle cells are no exception. They're almost always burning fat. The only times that fat is not a major source of fuel for muscle cells is following a heavy carbohydrate meal and during maximal intensity exercise. I'll try to post sources for this when I get a little more time.

I have no idea where you get the idea glycogen has to be depleted before muscle and other tissues will burn fat. That is patently false.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 13, 2011, 8:53 PM)

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