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Climber Killed after fall in VA
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chotoken


Jun 16, 2011, 1:24 PM
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Climber Killed after fall in VA
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Accident Summary:

Apparently this occured during top roping, the report says it may have been an equipment failure. The climber fell 100' .However, they mentioned that the rope didn't fail. I didn't know if anyone had any other details or insight.


Link: http://www2.wsls.com/news/2011/jun/15/6/climber-falls-death-blue-ridge-parkway-overlook-ar-1110997/


Be safe out there


Partner j_ung


Jun 16, 2011, 1:47 PM
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chotoken wrote:
Accident Summary:

Apparently this occured during top roping, the report says it may have been an equipment failure. The climber fell 100' .However, they mentioned that the rope didn't fail. I didn't know if anyone had any other details or insight.


http://www2.wsls.com/...overlook-ar-1110997/


Be safe out there

Clickable.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jun 16, 2011, 1:47 PM)


rnevius


Jun 16, 2011, 3:44 PM
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Just based off of some of the things the friend (White) said, it sounds like there was a lack of experience...I'm curious what the true culprit is.


Gmburns2000


Jun 16, 2011, 6:38 PM
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something is not right in that story. if a rope breaks then it's obvious where it broke.

condolences to the family and friends of the deceased. RIP.


moose_droppings


Jun 16, 2011, 9:56 PM
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As others have said, something is wrong with the News report. I won't even speculate without more info.

My condolences to all of the family and friends.


notapplicable


Jun 16, 2011, 10:39 PM
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Damn, too many accidents coming out of VA this week.

It sounds like either the TR sling/cord came untied or the rope unclipped from the anchor biner(s?) Kind of freaky really. You just don't hear about TR anchor failures very often.


iknowfear


Jun 17, 2011, 1:06 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
Damn, too many accidents coming out of VA this week.

It sounds like either the TR sling/cord came untied or the rope unclipped from the anchor biner(s?) Kind of freaky really. You just don't hear about TR anchor failures very often.

unless you count the times when someone threaded directly through webbing/ or the rope burned through the the anchor cordelettes threads... (Disclaimer: I'm not saying thats what happend here, just that toprope anchors do fail)

condolences family and friends.


drivel


Jun 17, 2011, 4:05 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
Damn, too many accidents coming out of VA this week.

It sounds like either the TR sling/cord came untied or the rope unclipped from the anchor biner(s?) Kind of freaky really. You just don't hear about TR anchor failures very often.


or he didn't finish tying his knot, a la lynn hill.

(which is to say- yes, he was inexperienced, but it is something for everyone to be vigilant about.)

condolences to the friends and family.


gimmeslack


Jun 18, 2011, 7:12 PM
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http://www.nbc29.com/...l-fall-investigation


notapplicable


Jun 18, 2011, 8:50 PM
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In reply to:
Rangers are looking for help in the investigation of a fatal fall at Raven's Roost Overlook on Wednesday. They are interested in talking to anyone who was at the overlook on the northern end of the parkway anytime between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. on Wednesday.

Jonathan Sullivan, 20 died while rock climbing with a group of five other climbers. According to friends, it was Sullivan's first time climbing an actual rock face. Investigators first thought an equipment failure was to blame.

If you were at the overlook at that time, or know someone who was there, please call the Blue Ridge Dispatch Office at (828) 298-2491.

Interesting. Not to say it's what happened, but it has always made me nervous to have my anchor up where the tourons hang out.


Magua


Jun 18, 2011, 9:45 PM
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I was at Ravens roost this mourning talking to the park rangers conducting the investigation of the fall. Apparently all 3 climbers were gym climbers and it was their first day climbing outside. The rangers said it was the webbing used for the anchor that failed, yet it had not been severed. Which leads me to deduct that it was the climbers error, and someone failed to tie the knot in the webbing correctly.


wwalt822


Jun 20, 2011, 9:47 AM
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From the article:

"White and Thompson had climbed the cliff before and each has about 10 years’ experience, they said."

I really hope they wouldn't count 10 years of gym experience as climbing experience.


chotoken


Jun 20, 2011, 7:03 PM
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That's a good point. A non-climber may count gym experience as "climbing experience". Plus the fact that reporters always mess the facts up a bit. I would like to know where the actual failure was.


gimmeslack


Jun 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
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As of today, I'm told the investigation is still underway.


gimmeslack


Jun 30, 2011, 12:44 PM
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Area is 'temporarily' closed.
Anyone have any new info?


Magua


Jul 16, 2011, 7:50 PM
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For anyone who is interested, I was climbing at Ravens roost today, (which has re-opened since the accident) and was talking to a park ranger who said the investigation was almost complete. He was not allowed to divulge any information regarding the accident, however he said that they would be releasing the full report in about a week.


rohr


Sep 10, 2011, 9:23 AM
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A little more information about this accident has come out. The NPS has ruled out foul play. (Since they TR anchor was at a popular overlook, it's possible that someone messed with their anchor. But they've ruled that out.)

http://www.readthehook.com/...nap-ravens-roost-rip

In reply to:
It was Sullivan's first outdoor rock climb, and he and his friends put plenty of appropriate gear in place, Stinnett says, including one-inch tubular rope. What they didn't have, however, was a proper connection to an anchor point.

"He was climbing, and he put his weight on the system,' says [Park Ranger] Stinnett. 'They hadn't put a carbiner on one end, and it failed."

Unfortunately it's still not very clear what happened. Earlier articles said that the fatal climb was the sixth climb on that anchor that day. If it lacked "a proper connection to an anchor point," I'm not sure how it worked for the first five climbs.

My best guess at what the ranger is getting at is that they were top-roping directly through webbing. If this is the case, I'm a bit surprised that the system didn't fail earlier in the day.

Anyway, condolences to the victim and his friends and family. Perhaps a more detailed report will come out soon.

[Edited to make the link clickable.]


(This post was edited by rohr on Sep 10, 2011, 9:26 AM)


wwalt822


Oct 12, 2011, 2:50 PM
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Perhaps they had several pieces of 1 inch webbing with no biner "to be redundant".


atdrennen


Jan 9, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Anyone ever find out what happend?


gojiclimber


Apr 18, 2012, 7:59 AM
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Didn't see a follow up to this anywhere else, so I will post. This accident was actually recently reviewed in last months Rock and Ice.

My understanding was the anchor was not properly extended. A sewn sling was used to extend the anchor from the original master point by a single overhand knot. Presumably this was a temporary knot. The rope was attached with biners to the extended sling, which was attached to the original anchor with an overhand knot.

The group top roped off the anchor this way for some time, before it gave way on the last climb of the day.

My analysis would be to never use non-loading bearing knots in your anchor set up even if you intend for it to be temporary.

My condolences to Family and Friends.

*Dont have the article in front of me. I will update any inaccuracies.


chotoken


Jul 15, 2012, 7:39 PM
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I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Chotoken


gothcopter


Jul 16, 2012, 7:56 AM
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chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?

Attachments: IMAG0184.jpg (55.9 KB)


Marylandclimber


Jul 16, 2012, 3:50 PM
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I cant see how somebody couldn't just use a girth hitch there...


drivel


Jul 17, 2012, 6:20 PM
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gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.


JasonsDrivingForce


Jul 20, 2012, 12:20 PM
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drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Jul 20, 2012, 12:23 PM)


bearbreeder


Jul 20, 2012, 12:30 PM
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none except for inexperience and an absolute disregard for safety ...

there are many ways to link or extend anchors safe enough for the forces in TR or greater .... even the simple girth hitch would have been better ...


iknowfear


Jul 20, 2012, 1:03 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?

no. as a general rule, try to avoid doing "temporary" stuff, as one tends to forget that it was meant to be temoporary


drivel


Jul 20, 2012, 4:37 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


i mean "i can picture that happening" not "i see valid reasons for doing this." But I can see someone looking at it, thinking it was girth-hitched and thinking it was fine.

but no, can't think of a good reason for ever doing something like that. inexperience.


chotoken


Aug 5, 2012, 9:12 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what.

My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time.


Chotoken


(This post was edited by chotoken on Aug 5, 2012, 9:15 PM)


gimmeslack


Aug 6, 2012, 1:32 PM
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chotoken wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what.

My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time.


Chotoken

I can't see how. Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever.

It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster.


theguy


Aug 6, 2012, 7:25 PM
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gimmeslack wrote:
chotoken wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what.

My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time.


Chotoken

I can't see how. Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever.

It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster.

Neither could they:
- "Something like this never happened, ever" - partner 1
- "I'm boggled by it" - partner 2


gimmeslack


Aug 7, 2012, 12:17 AM
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theguy wrote:
gimmeslack wrote:
chotoken wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
drivel wrote:
gothcopter wrote:
chotoken wrote:
I don't follow the overhand not use. Was it not clipped in? I'm not sure I understand the way they had this set up.

Maybe he meant something like this?


that image makes me honestly sick to my stomach. that is the scariest thing i've seen on this website in a while and I can totally see both how someone would do that and how it'd cost their friend his life.

condolences again to the loved ones.

What type of scenario would lead someone to setup an anchor like this? I have no experience in setting anchors at all. I am just trying to understand what type of situation would compel someone to setup like that.

Is it ever necessary to tie a temporary load bearing knot like this?


I could see how someone would setup something like this as a means of checking the length of a anchor extension, or to measure for a equilized anchor. However, I think this is a dangerous practice and shouldn't be done. Anything you rig should be weight supporting from the moment you put it up, no matter what.

My personal preference is to be sure you rig carefully, and double check your rigging. Once you are 100% sure it is safe; check it all one more time.


Chotoken

I can't see how. Sorry. Every time I tie a knot in my 'system' it's a knot that will hold me in case of fall. A clove on a binner with end of loop clipped through biner, even a girth-hitch... Always. When rigging, when building anchor, whenever.

It starts from the moment you put on your harness - double back *all the way*. Doing any knot, buckle, or other life-safety component 'temporarily' is begging for a disaster.

Neither could they:
- "Something like this never happened, ever" - partner 1
- "I'm boggled by it" - partner 2

My comment refers to chotoken suggesting that it's possible to comprehend the overhand knot, perhaps as a temporary measure. I'm saying that's deadly bullshit. No one should ever tie a lame knot in what will become part of anchor,or anything that might be fallen on - even if temporary,such as while rigging the 'real' anchor. Ever.

Credit to chotoken then arriving at same position i'm stating... It was a lethal error.
In reply to:


(This post was edited by gimmeslack on Aug 7, 2012, 12:22 AM)


viciado


Aug 8, 2012, 5:30 AM
Post #33 of 37 (2401 views)
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Re: [gimmeslack] Climber Killed after fall in VA [In reply to]
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As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine...

For example, many people use a square knot to join two pieces of rope together and it s normally sufficient for that purpose when the two working strands are loaded. An inexperienced climber "possibly" used such a knot to tie the webbing onto the rope. Under a single strand load, that knot will roll into a loosely tied pair of half hitches. With the movement of the rope It is easy to see how one of those half hitches would slip out early onwhile the other under cyclic loads would tighten up enough to hold for a few to several cycles then give out when the tail finally slips through.

This is not a by any means a definitive scenario, but just an example of how someone could have set it up thinking it was good.


ninepointeight


Aug 17, 2012, 6:51 AM
Post #35 of 37 (2063 views)
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Re: [viciado] Climber Killed after fall in VA [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine...

For example, many people use a square knot to join two pieces of rope together and it s normally sufficient for that purpose when the two working strands are loaded. An inexperienced climber "possibly" used such a knot to tie the webbing onto the rope. Under a single strand load, that knot will roll into a loosely tied pair of half hitches. With the movement of the rope It is easy to see how one of those half hitches would slip out early onwhile the other under cyclic loads would tighten up enough to hold for a few to several cycles then give out when the tail finally slips through.

This is not a by any means a definitive scenario, but just an example of how someone could have set it up thinking it was good.

I agree the square not is insecure and shouldn't be used for life safety but I'm not sure I follow what you wrote here. How is it possible to have load on only a single strand of a bend?


viciado


Aug 18, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #36 of 37 (1966 views)
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Re: [ninepointeight] Climber Killed after fall in VA [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
viciado wrote:
As to the "HOW", I don't find it hard to imagine...

... snip ... I agree the square not is insecure and shouldn't be used for life safety but I'm not sure I follow what you wrote here. How is it possible to have load on only a single strand of a bend?

If you use a square knot to tie the the bight into a loop onto a biner or whatever, only one side of the knot will be loaded and then roll it Try it. and you will see the failure mode.


Marylandclimber


Aug 22, 2012, 3:57 PM
Post #37 of 37 (1847 views)
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Climber Killed after fall in VA [In reply to]
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The climbers were not experienced and didn't understand the situation and how much danger they were in. Never EVER do what was in the picture.


Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


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