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Importance of fast twitch?
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ceebo


Jun 19, 2011, 9:49 AM
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Importance of fast twitch?
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This is more for flesh but anybody else feel free to flame.

Type IIa Fibers
These fast twitch muscle fibers are also known as intermediate fast-twitch fibers. They can use both aerobic and anaerobic metabolism almost equally to create energy. In this way, they are a combination of Type I and Type II muscle fibers.


Type IIb Fibers
These fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction (rapid firing) of all the muscle fiber types, but it also has a much faster rate of fatigue and can't last as long before it needs rest.


After trying big rungs a few times they do not give the same gains that i am making from the 3/4 inch in terms of finger strength. However, you are doing doubles where as im still doing taps and ladders.

I just can't figure out how such big rungs can bring a massive improvement, i have tried them multiple times and in comparison to 3/4 inch they do not stress the fingers as much. I do however notice a much greater effort required from the upper muscles in doubles over taps and ladders. Do you think that because you are doing doubles it has enabled you to develop a better mix of fast twitch as quoted above?.

Is it possible that the gains made were down to the mix of losing weight and training more fast twitch in the upper muscles?. Also side question, would the slight lock offs in campusing also train slow twitch?.

I know it is a stupid question to ask, as we are so use to fingers being the weakest link. Again i do not doubt your progress, but i just don't understand it.

The theory as i read (i think the scc?) is that the faster you can climb a route the less energy you would use (obviously wit ought sacrificing efficiency). So that in my mind painted a picture that dynamic momentum based climbing is the most efficient when possible. Given the fact you're muscles should have a high level of both twitch by now (maybe even more so fast?) perhaps it has allowed you to make the most efficient style moves?.

Im interested to know if you think this could have had any baring on your gains. Although im fully expecting to just get flamed to death again.

Also 1 more question. I know that fast twitch can put down the same force as slow (little more maybe). It takes less than half half a second to get full contraction out of fast twitch?. Out of slow twitch i don't know? maybe 1 to 2 seconds?. I think i understand that both ''should'' use around the same energy to get to max contraction in their quickest time. However.. in climbing although fast twitch contraction duration will not be effected i can perfectly understand how slow twitch contraction times can well exceed ''normal'' slow twitch contraction time. So am i just completely wrong in that understanding or will it be far more efficiant to use fast twitch contractions in form of dynamic climbing when ever possible?.

I sense i lost you with that last one Laugh


spikeddem


Jun 19, 2011, 10:09 AM
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ceebo wrote:
After trying big rungs a few times they do not give the same gains that i am making from the 3/4 inch in terms of finger strength. However, you are doing doubles where as im still doing taps and ladders.

How're you quantifying your finger strength gains? If it's by watching how many sets/reps you can complete for this training method, how're you controlling your experiment for improvements in technique?

It may (may!) be more accurate to ignore the first two or three weeks of the training (perhaps even a month), during which time you're putting together better technique for it. An activity like campusing rungs has much less technique available to be learned. Therefore, it seems logical that one would reach the point where muscular gains outpace technique gains much more quickly than actually climbing.

During the first few weeks, I think your body would still be making gains in places other than your fingers (technique, tension, etc), and since your goal is to measure finger strength while attempting to control for other gains, you might want to perhaps throw out the first few weeks.

Perhaps you're already doing this.

You've gone into this with the idea that you're going to be flamed. I'm not flaming you. I'm curious.


jbone


Jun 19, 2011, 11:29 AM
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This would be a much more interesting thread if it were about the video.


ceebo


Jun 19, 2011, 11:36 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
After trying big rungs a few times they do not give the same gains that i am making from the 3/4 inch in terms of finger strength. However, you are doing doubles where as im still doing taps and ladders.

How're you quantifying your finger strength gains? If it's by watching how many sets/reps you can complete for this training method, how're you controlling your experiment for improvements in technique?

It may (may!) be more accurate to ignore the first two or three weeks of the training (perhaps even a month), during which time you're putting together better technique for it. An activity like campusing rungs has much less technique available to be learned. Therefore, it seems logical that one would reach the point where muscular gains outpace technique gains much more quickly than actually climbing.

During the first few weeks, I think your body would still be making gains in places other than your fingers (technique, tension, etc), and since your goal is to measure finger strength while attempting to control for other gains, you might want to perhaps throw out the first few weeks.

Perhaps you're already doing this.

You've gone into this with the idea that you're going to be flamed. I'm not flaming you. I'm curious.

Well, for me the concern was what failed first (both using 20 lb). With 3/4 inch my fingers start to reach failure.. then i just fall off. Although i do not think my upper body is far behind at that point. I'm doing taps to the 3rd rail 6 reps per set.

With doubles on the bigger rungs my fingers do not feel close to failure but my upper muscles do until again, i fall off. Also it is worth noting that i was able to increase the reps dramatically given the fact my fingers had less load. Since it feels far easier on my fingers i do question if they would be exposed to raw strength gains.. or if they would actually be making some mid/high form of endurance gains (that would also explain allot). Clearly the upper muscles had plenty more time to recruit what ever it is their able to recruit.

Edit - Just to make this all clear.. im just trying to figure out if im putting too much emphasis on maximum finger strength gains. Right now it feels almost like a step back to use those bigger rungs.. but clearly im missing some other huge gains that are made from that. As flesh has shown. Im just curious what exactly they are.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 19, 2011, 12:03 PM)


ghisino


Jun 20, 2011, 2:10 AM
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ceebo wrote:
im just trying to figure out if im putting too much emphasis on maximum finger strength gains.

what are the objectives you train for in the short span (0-6 months)?
Any specific routes/boulders?
Grades, styles?
Any incoming trips, projects, competitions, etc?
Are these goals truly motivating? Challenging, but realistic? Limited in number and not conflicting with each other?

if your objectives are well formulated squeeze your brain and you'll have the answer...
(of course, if flesh is a friend of yours who actually knows you and your objectives very well, he can give an informed advice on this matter)

(and of course smaller rungs are for fingers and doubles on bigger rungs are for big muscles and coordination : jus ask yourself what you need the most...)




i don't know, for the sake of discussion...
your question sounds like someone who trains for the sake of training (good, training is fun in a way!) or someone who trains to "get better at climbing" without a clear idea of what "better" means for you.

I'm very critical of the second case. I see the desire to to improve at something without being able to define what improvement means in the details as the sign of one (or more) of the following cases:
-very simply, lack of goal-setting skills, or overlooking the importance of goal-setting.
-lack of a genuine passion fo the activity where the improvement is desired. The passion is there for "improvement", rather than for climbing or whatever other activity it is referred to.
-lack of personality. someone who waits for others to set trends, expectations, standards he/she needs to conform to.


Rufsen


Jun 20, 2011, 4:36 AM
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ceebo wrote:
So am i just completely wrong in that understanding or will it be far more efficiant to use fast twitch contractions in form of dynamic climbing when ever possible?.

I sense i lost you with that last one Laugh

You did. You really did.

But what is the problem really? If you see gains with the small rungs then keep doing that.


ceebo


Jun 20, 2011, 9:25 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
ceebo wrote:
im just trying to figure out if im putting too much emphasis on maximum finger strength gains.

what are the objectives you train for in the short span (0-6 months)?
Any specific routes/boulders?
Grades, styles?
Any incoming trips, projects, competitions, etc?
Are these goals truly motivating? Challenging, but realistic? Limited in number and not conflicting with each other?

if your objectives are well formulated squeeze your brain and you'll have the answer...
(of course, if flesh is a friend of yours who actually knows you and your objectives very well, he can give an informed advice on this matter)

(and of course smaller rungs are for fingers and doubles on bigger rungs are for big muscles and coordination : jus ask yourself what you need the most...)




i don't know, for the sake of discussion...
your question sounds like someone who trains for the sake of training (good, training is fun in a way!) or someone who trains to "get better at climbing" without a clear idea of what "better" means for you.

I'm very critical of the second case. I see the desire to to improve at something without being able to define what improvement means in the details as the sign of one (or more) of the following cases:
-very simply, lack of goal-setting skills, or overlooking the importance of goal-setting.
-lack of a genuine passion fo the activity where the improvement is desired. The passion is there for "improvement", rather than for climbing or whatever other activity it is referred to.
-lack of personality. someone who waits for others to set trends, expectations, standards he/she needs to conform to.

Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this.

I do hope fast twitch is not that important because if this is true ''The problem is that fast and superfast twitch fibers can be changed into slow twitch fibers by doing endurance training. But once they change, they don't change back.'' then allot of us are fucked..

Or is that why doubles are so good?.. so you can build mass and then recruit it to fast twitch?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 20, 2011, 9:30 AM)


spikeddem


Jun 20, 2011, 9:48 AM
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Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?


ceebo


Jun 20, 2011, 2:31 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.


Learner


Jun 20, 2011, 2:36 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
ghisino wrote:
ceebo wrote:
im just trying to figure out if im putting too much emphasis on maximum finger strength gains.

what are the objectives you train for in the short span (0-6 months)?
Any specific routes/boulders?
Grades, styles?
Any incoming trips, projects, competitions, etc?
Are these goals truly motivating? Challenging, but realistic? Limited in number and not conflicting with each other?

if your objectives are well formulated squeeze your brain and you'll have the answer...
(of course, if flesh is a friend of yours who actually knows you and your objectives very well, he can give an informed advice on this matter)

(and of course smaller rungs are for fingers and doubles on bigger rungs are for big muscles and coordination : jus ask yourself what you need the most...)




i don't know, for the sake of discussion...
your question sounds like someone who trains for the sake of training (good, training is fun in a way!) or someone who trains to "get better at climbing" without a clear idea of what "better" means for you.

I'm very critical of the second case. I see the desire to to improve at something without being able to define what improvement means in the details as the sign of one (or more) of the following cases:
-very simply, lack of goal-setting skills, or overlooking the importance of goal-setting.
-lack of a genuine passion fo the activity where the improvement is desired. The passion is there for "improvement", rather than for climbing or whatever other activity it is referred to.
-lack of personality. someone who waits for others to set trends, expectations, standards he/she needs to conform to.

Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this.

I do hope fast twitch is not that important because if this is true ''The problem is that fast and superfast twitch fibers can be changed into slow twitch fibers by doing endurance training. But once they change, they don't change back.'' then allot of us are fucked..

Or is that why doubles are so good?.. so you can build mass and then recruit it to fast twitch?.
This is not true, so no worry.

They can be changed back. In fact, it is easier to convert slow-twitch fibers into fast-twitch fibers than converting fast-twitch fibers into slow-twitch fibers.

We've actually known this since the 1960's, following work by A.J. Buller and (nobel-prize winner) John Eccles. They used several methods to demonstrate that slow twitch fibers could be converted to fast-twitch fibers and vice versa. In one method, they took a nerve that was hooked up to one fiber type, then hooked it up to the other fiber type. So, the fibers were controlled by the opposite type of nerve than they were used to. The result was that the fibers would adapt to the nerve signal, and become what the nerve signal demanded. Slow-twitch fibers convert to fast-twitch fibers and fast-twitch fibers convert to slow-twitch fibers, as long as the signal demands it. Here is one example from this line of research:

Buller, A. J., and Lewis, D. M. (1965). Further Observations on Mammalian Cross-Innervated Skeletal Muscle. Journal of Physiology, 178, 343-358. Retrieved from http://jp.physoc.org/content/178/2/343.full.pdf

So, the signal is what's important, and the signal is triggered by the effort you exert. This action of triggering the fibers with a signal is exactly what you're doing when you exert the type of effort you exert--you're sending the nerve signals that tell the fibers what to be. It starts in the brain with your effort and tells the fibers how they need to adapt. Once you send that signal, the fiber then expresses the gene that converts it into the type of fiber that the signal demands. It is part of a process called "epigenesis," which deals with how the expression of genes is not predetermined but rather a reaction to signals.

So, if you demand that a particular muscle performs more explosively, you are triggering the expression of the genes within some of those slower-twitch fibers to convert the fibers to fast-twitch for that explosive activity. And vice-versa.


(This post was edited by Learner on Jun 20, 2011, 2:54 PM)


spikeddem


Jun 20, 2011, 2:44 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?


ceebo


Jun 20, 2011, 3:23 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html


spikeddem


Jun 20, 2011, 3:28 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

How hard were your last two or three projects? Do you know how many tries they took (even an estimate)?


jt512


Jun 20, 2011, 3:38 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

For some reason, I skimmed down to that article's penultimate paragraph, which is completely wrong:

'admin' wrote:
So your body will burn energy in the following order. First it uses adrenaline. When your adrenaline is depleted it will burn glucose. When your glucose is depleted, it will make more glucose or glycogen. Where does it get the molecules to make this extra glucose? It comes from that place where your body stored all the carbs you weren't using, in your fat cells. This is how the body burns fat. As a general rule, after twenty minutes of continuous exercise (running, swimming, climbing, etc), your body will deplete its available reserve of adrenaline and glucose. After that, you are burning your stored energy (fat).


johnwesely


Jun 20, 2011, 3:45 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Jun 20, 2011, 3:45 PM)


jt512


Jun 20, 2011, 4:30 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay


ceebo


Jun 20, 2011, 5:09 PM
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jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay

Yeah lets go with that, does ceebo warm up on jays max Yes or no

The range was 7b to a arguably soft 8a (so i call it 7c+). Attempts wise, i don't see the point in even trying to count.. they were all at or past my limit at that time so they all took allot of failed attempts.


johnwesely


Jun 20, 2011, 6:38 PM
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ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay

Yeah lets go with that, does ceebo warm up on jays max Yes or no

The range was 7b to a arguably soft 8a (so i call it 7c+). Attempts wise, i don't see the point in even trying to count.. they were all at or past my limit at that time so they all took allot of failed attempts.

I didn't ask for a range. Have you ever red pointed a route graded 8a or 7c+?


ceebo


Jun 20, 2011, 7:10 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay

Yeah lets go with that, does ceebo warm up on jays max Yes or no

The range was 7b to a arguably soft 8a (so i call it 7c+). Attempts wise, i don't see the point in even trying to count.. they were all at or past my limit at that time so they all took allot of failed attempts.

I didn't ask for a range. Have you ever red pointed a route graded 8a or 7c+?

Did i not just tell you?.


johnwesely


Jun 20, 2011, 7:24 PM
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ceebo wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
Ceebo, I'm curious. What grade do you regularly send in 2-5 tries?

To be perfectly honest, i rarely find myself climbing something that i can do in so few attempts any more. I genuinely have no idea, sorry.

What is the hardest grade you consistently send after projecting?

What do you mean after?.. maybe i should have been more clear. All i do is project something that was harder than the last project. Amongst that has been some form of training, be it endurance or my current urge to campus. Really, i can not answer your question.

And thank you learner, that was informative. I also found an article on this site about twitch recruitment, but i guess it may be out dated now too.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Muscle_Fiber_30.html

What is the most difficult, gradewise, climb you have ever done?

Maybe make it multiple choice.

Jay

Yeah lets go with that, does ceebo warm up on jays max Yes or no

The range was 7b to a arguably soft 8a (so i call it 7c+). Attempts wise, i don't see the point in even trying to count.. they were all at or past my limit at that time so they all took allot of failed attempts.

I didn't ask for a range. Have you ever red pointed a route graded 8a or 7c+?

Did i not just tell you?.

Not clearly enough.


ghisino


Jun 21, 2011, 8:43 AM
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ceebo wrote:
Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this..

it has because if, let's say, i'm a runner and more specifically i'm motivated by marathons, i don't give a fuck about fast twitch fibers, and that ends the discussion.

(just to make a gross generalization. but my point was more about your hamletic doubt between two campus board routines, than about the non-reversibility issue).



whether and how the non-reversibility thing is important in climbing is an interesting issue in itself.
(edit : apparently it's not such a big issue anyway, if learner is right?)

My 2 cents is that it's too early to know for sure, and we're still in an era where empiricism works best.
An answer sounding like "doubles improve your reach and hand-eye coordination in big dynamic moves" should satisfy you.
Still too early to focus on the science behind it, imho.

remember that most sports physiology studies are about "simple" tasks such as running or weightlifting, and we have a hard time applying knoledge gained in those areas to climbing...

maybe in 10 years climbing comps will go olympic and all WC athletes in boulder, lead and speed competitions will be followed by a medical staff -la-Patxi...
then we'll have the kind of answers you are looking for, and knowing those answer will make a true difference (at the elite level).









(hint : if we only look at muscular issues, 90% of the times the limiting factor on any climb/move comes from your finger flexors being too weak or not having enough stamina. Empirically speaking, you have to hold those crimps, pockets, slopers and pinches!

Now, your finger flexors normally perform a series of isometric contractions during a climb.
Whereas those sports or exercises from which we try to borrow our knowledge mostly involve bigger muscles and in a much more dynamic fashion...
that's the root of the problem and the reason why i'm skeptical.

Though, if anyone has good scientific resources about the physiology of intermittent isometric contractions in a smaller muscle group, i'm very interested...)


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jun 21, 2011, 8:55 AM)


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 2:34 PM
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Re: [ghisino] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Not quite sure why personal goals or motivation has anything to do with this..

it has because if, let's say, i'm a runner and more specifically i'm motivated by marathons, i don't give a fuck about fast twitch fibers, and that ends the discussion.

(just to make a gross generalization. but my point was more about your hamletic doubt between two campus board routines, than about the non-reversibility issue).



whether and how the non-reversibility thing is important in climbing is an interesting issue in itself.
(edit : apparently it's not such a big issue anyway, if learner is right?)

My 2 cents is that it's too early to know for sure, and we're still in an era where empiricism works best.
An answer sounding like "doubles improve your reach and hand-eye coordination in big dynamic moves" should satisfy you.
Still too early to focus on the science behind it, imho.

remember that most sports physiology studies are about "simple" tasks such as running or weightlifting, and we have a hard time applying knoledge gained in those areas to climbing...

maybe in 10 years climbing comps will go olympic and all WC athletes in boulder, lead and speed competitions will be followed by a medical staff -la-Patxi...
then we'll have the kind of answers you are looking for, and knowing those answer will make a true difference (at the elite level).









(hint : if we only look at muscular issues, 90% of the times the limiting factor on any climb/move comes from your finger flexors being too weak or not having enough stamina. Empirically speaking, you have to hold those crimps, pockets, slopers and pinches!

Now, your finger flexors normally perform a series of isometric contractions during a climb.
Whereas those sports or exercises from which we try to borrow our knowledge mostly involve bigger muscles and in a much more dynamic fashion...
that's the root of the problem and the reason why i'm skeptical.

Though, if anyone has good scientific resources about the physiology of intermittent isometric contractions in a smaller muscle group, i'm very interested...)

Yeah i understand that, but just as a example.. The hold positivity can be manipulated in such a way (by adjusting all round body position) where it is in fact easier on the fingers at the cost of multiple larger muscle groups engaging in the chain (none of this is new sure). But, when such muscles are in a half contracted state (give or take).. just maybe it is that much more difficult to generate any kind of movement from them as well. Like for example, if i put my fist 1 inch from your face and punched you.. it would not hurt much because i could not generate much force. If i do it from arms length then its another story. Not that i want to punch you Wink

If those muscles are not trained to sustain high level and duration of work (ontop of providing pwoer from short contraction span) it will ofc feel so much harder.. perhaps to the point where superior finger endurance/strength takes over and the rest of the body reacts in a way that is actually not efficient (although it my feel like it is easier). that person would have to have far greater finger strength or endurance to complete X route than what is really needed.

Fingers are used so much and i think for the majority of normal climbers are finger/fore arm endurance far out does are upper muscles, for some maybe even core. I can easily dead hang a 1 inch surface for well over a minute but i can not do a lock off for that time.. (yes i tested) that in my opinion is a ludicrous weakness in upper body. Little fingers out doing bigger muscle groups just does not feel right to me.

So that kinda brings it back to the original point. Flesh was using massive rungs, im still not convinced they gave significant finger strength improvement (in fact i do question if any gains would have been made in raw strength on such rungs). But still.. he made huge improvement.

Seems that the reason such gains were made was because of anything but fingers, apart from needing them to hang on ofc. That i guess would be huge endurance, strength, lock off, power generating improvements in the upper muscles (with fast and slow recruitment i guess?).. coordination maybe?.. some contact maybe? defo a little core. And ofc, something that probably contributed a big chunk of the improvement was losing weight.

That is all just a hashed up theory.. don't get mad people?.


Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?. Don't you think their are just far too many variables in climbing to ensure every muscle group and its pair get the same work out?. Were some climbers may get past those veriables (i guess with ought even knowing it).. how many may not. Maybe 1 weakness in the chain stops all the other parts making progress?. Hint being, he relatively removed fingers from the equation.. and actually made significant gains?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 21, 2011, 2:41 PM)


redlude97


Jun 21, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 4:58 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason. He took me out once on a down hill dirt track or what ever ''its fun'' he said. Yeah sure, the first few min to get down was... then 10-15 min to ride back up.. fuck that.


jt512


Jun 21, 2011, 5:07 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*


flesh


Jun 21, 2011, 5:14 PM
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To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So when I train, it's all about this, how can I put more weight on my fingers (for power, more weight=more power) without getting injured. For me and I suspect most, injuries are more likely to occur from crimping vs open handed. So my goal is simply to find the best way to put the most weight on my fingers in the open hand position.

The best way I've found to do this is doing doubles on a decent size rung that allows me to stay open handed (in general the smaller the rung, the harder it is to stay open, or the smaller the rung, your fingers naturally move into a open crimp position). Instead of using a smaller rung as I get stronger I add weight, up to 30 lbs in some cases, once again, so I can stay open while putting more weight on my fingers= more finga powa!

If anyone can figure out a better way to put more weight on your fingers than this while staying open I'd love to know. You would have to take into the dynamic weight effect to figure this out. In otherwords, I know if I hand off one small open handed sloper with one had it would be more weight than if I was haning off a rung with both hands, but, would it be more weight than that one second in time when I go up or down doing doubles with 20 lbs on my back?

More importantly is this, is the training your doing producing results? In my case, the way i campus, am I going up in reps/weight over time in a controllable measurable way? Is it improving my climbing? The answer is yes, proofs in the pudding. That's all i need to know, I don't care what twitch it is.

In just the last 2 months I went from a best of 8 reps without weight on a one pad open hand rung doing doubles with 10 minute rests betweeen to my current best which was yesterday, I did 12 reps on one set with 14 lbs and 10 reps on two sets with 15 lbs. Is it improving my climbing? I haven't gone up in grades yet, but it's too hot to send hard outside, I suspect I'll go up in grades this fall. However, I am climbing boulders inside that are below my limit much faster than before. Also, alot of the problems I'm doing no one else in my gym has done, which tells me they must be hard ;), plus, this didn't use to happen very often.

ceebo if your fingers aren't failing before your pull muscles on the larger rungs while adding weight try this.

1. don't focus on skipping as many rungs on the way up. Start near the top, only go up one rung, not skipping any, then on the way down, skip 2 rungs, this focuses more on the fingers and less on the pull muscles, doubles of course.

2. Use step one and add more weight, I've added up to 30lbs at this point.


redlude97


Jun 21, 2011, 6:06 PM
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 6:09 PM
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flesh wrote:
To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So when I train, it's all about this, how can I put more weight on my fingers (for power, more weight=more power) without getting injured. For me and I suspect most, injuries are more likely to occur from crimping vs open handed. So my goal is simply to find the best way to put the most weight on my fingers in the open hand position.

The best way I've found to do this is doing doubles on a decent size rung that allows me to stay open handed (in general the smaller the rung, the harder it is to stay open, or the smaller the rung, your fingers naturally move into a open crimp position). Instead of using a smaller rung as I get stronger I add weight, up to 30 lbs in some cases, once again, so I can stay open while putting more weight on my fingers= more finga powa!

If anyone can figure out a better way to put more weight on your fingers than this while staying open I'd love to know. You would have to take into the dynamic weight effect to figure this out. In otherwords, I know if I hand off one small open handed sloper with one had it would be more weight than if I was haning off a rung with both hands, but, would it be more weight than that one second in time when I go up or down doing doubles with 20 lbs on my back?

More importantly is this, is the training your doing producing results? In my case, the way i campus, am I going up in reps/weight over time in a controllable measurable way? Is it improving my climbing? The answer is yes, proofs in the pudding. That's all i need to know, I don't care what twitch it is.

In just the last 2 months I went from a best of 8 reps without weight on a one pad open hand rung doing doubles with 10 minute rests betweeen to my current best which was yesterday, I did 12 reps on one set with 14 lbs and 10 reps on two sets with 15 lbs. Is it improving my climbing? I haven't gone up in grades yet, but it's too hot to send hard outside, I suspect I'll go up in grades this fall. However, I am climbing boulders inside that are below my limit much faster than before. Also, alot of the problems I'm doing no one else in my gym has done, which tells me they must be hard ;), plus, this didn't use to happen very often.

ceebo if your fingers aren't failing before your pull muscles on the larger rungs while adding weight try this.

1. don't focus on skipping as many rungs on the way up. Start near the top, only go up one rung, not skipping any, then on the way down, skip 2 rungs, this focuses more on the fingers and less on the pull muscles, doubles of course.

2. Use step one and add more weight, I've added up to 30lbs at this point.

If you are saying that with certainty then its all very clear. Is it possible to reach that kind of force with my 3/4 rail weighted taps? (could you maybe test a set just to compare? or have you already?). If not then i need new rungs.


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 6:10 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try


redlude97


Jun 21, 2011, 6:24 PM
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 3:51 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 3:55 AM)


ghisino


Jun 22, 2011, 5:23 AM
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ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I''ll answer in three parts.

A. "yes there are times where a targeted exercise will be way more effective than "just climbing".

most commonly it would be because the bouldering (or lead) wall and your local outdoor boulders/crags don't offer the kind of stimulus you need.
eg if i want to train for frankenjura but my gym and outdoor venues don't offer pockets, i'll fingerboard a lot...

in a few occasions it is just easier to first develop the muscle and then the technique that uses it than doing both at the same time.
eg, my footwork on steep stuff improved drastically when i started to work on the front lever.


B.but for 90% of climbers the biggest limitations are elsewhere.
extreme example.
Being climbing with this strong newbie lately.
Very clear 8b redpoint/7c OS potential if only he knew how to get 100% out of the machine (i climb close enough to those grades, eand seen him in enough situations, to judge)
Made his first 7a OS and 7b+ OS a few days ago on routes chosen to suit his strenghts.
This climber just needs lots of mileage on easy and hard ground, before the day when some part of his body will be a major limiting factor...even for the indoor lead routes where he already excels.

C.Non-climbing training supplements are hard to master, for a few reasons.
-assessing what muscular deficit limits you (if any) is often tricky.
-boards, systems, weight rooms...things that produce measurable gains (from 8 to 10 reps, from 0 to 20 lbs). Dangerously rewarding: many shift their focus from their initial objective to the campus exercise in itself
-Muscular gains often happen faster than the technique changes needed to make the most out of them (unless you're a kid maybe. kids learn fast). This means that during a heavy "training supplementation" cycle you'll inevitably shift from being muscle-limited to being technique-limited.




it is also important to note that in other sports
a) non-specific training is mostly done by elite athletes who already put up the max possible hours of specific training : more than that, and they'll either get an overuse injury or start to hate their own sport.
Pro swimmers do weight work to keep balanced and squeeze that extra small %. Amateur swimmers don't even get close to the point where an hour of weight room work is more valuable than one hour in the water.
b)non-specific training is sometimes done by amateurs if there's a clear "season Vs off-season" separation. Non competing climbers rarely have a true off-season, unless they live in very unlucky places and never go on a trip...



btw
i consider indoor climbing as "just climbing" for a number of reasons...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jun 22, 2011, 5:30 AM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 6:38 AM
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ghisino wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I''ll answer in three parts.

A. "yes there are times where a targeted exercise will be way more effective than "just climbing".

most commonly it would be because the bouldering (or lead) wall and your local outdoor boulders/crags don't offer the kind of stimulus you need.
eg if i want to train for frankenjura but my gym and outdoor venues don't offer pockets, i'll fingerboard a lot...

in a few occasions it is just easier to first develop the muscle and then the technique that uses it than doing both at the same time.
eg, my footwork on steep stuff improved drastically when i started to work on the front lever.


B.but for 90% of climbers the biggest limitations are elsewhere.
extreme example.
Being climbing with this strong newbie lately.
Very clear 8b redpoint/7c OS potential if only he knew how to get 100% out of the machine (i climb close enough to those grades, eand seen him in enough situations, to judge)
Made his first 7a OS and 7b+ OS a few days ago on routes chosen to suit his strenghts.
This climber just needs lots of mileage on easy and hard ground, before the day when some part of his body will be a major limiting factor...even for the indoor lead routes where he already excels.

C.Non-climbing training supplements are hard to master, for a few reasons.
-assessing what muscular deficit limits you (if any) is often tricky.
-boards, systems, weight rooms...things that produce measurable gains (from 8 to 10 reps, from 0 to 20 lbs). Dangerously rewarding: many shift their focus from their initial objective to the campus exercise in itself
-Muscular gains often happen faster than the technique changes needed to make the most out of them (unless you're a kid maybe. kids learn fast). This means that during a heavy "training supplementation" cycle you'll inevitably shift from being muscle-limited to being technique-limited.





btw
i consider indoor climbing as "just climbing".
I see many indoor-only climbers where i live.
I've known a few climbers whose objective #1 are competitions.
And anyway, even for those of us who care about the outdoors, indoor bouldering/lead is the closest we can do to "the real thing" during the week.

Well you talk sense. Anyway, i have some more questions and thoughts.. since you seem to have the interest.

You said it can be much easier to have the strength to engage the proper technique for a route. So from that im thinking purely on a red/project perspective, that being my only interest in climbing these days.

These routes to me feel like a puzzle that will always need X amount of time to figure everything out. It certainly feels that regardless of what level on sight is.. or how many routes climbed in the past, a project route still demands a certain chunk of route specific learning/physical gains that a large amount of other climbing will probably never obtain. Unless ofc you leave such a route and made huge gains else where before going back to it some time later.. but then it would not be a project any more.

So when not working a route, would it be of greater advantage to spend that time accurately targeting things in campusing, dead hangs, lock offs, core.. basically anything felt to be a physical limiting factor for the current project?. Rather than wondering around trying to find routes that vaguely resemble my intended area of improvement (and the risk of adding variables that reduce the gains).

If i do have a technical problem with the project then how likely is it i can solve that by climbing other things as a form of preperation?. Also, can you really confirm that climbing other routes will actually yield technical gains for the project?.. i can understand the physical gains sure. At this point i feel the concept of technique is well established. The refinement or modification of it to a individual move however i assume can only every be obtained by doing that individual move. Not by doing a move on another route that felt a ''close'' comparison.. at least that's my thoughts.

For people who just wish to on sight, i can sure see the need to put in many many miles to get a broad refinement of moves. I can see how that would enable them to better adjust moves on the fly while climbing something with in their limit. I wonder if the same kind of thing is really needed for projecting though.. perhaps it could be more efficient to vastly narrow down the scope to push harder and harder grades in the desired climbing style.

A interesting experiment, maybe just to me.. is to have a complete new climber given a 9a project (or a more modest 8a even) with no other form of climbing. It would be great to see how long it would take that climber to send that route by training only with hang boards, campusing and core work outs etc. I think it is possible if the training started on the boards at a really low level.. untill tendons and all the rest of it are able to sustain that level of climbing with ought injury. Dunno.. i think it would be quite surprising how fast he would get up to that level. He certainly would not need to climb thousands of other routes just to learn the moves of 1.


grayhghost


Jun 22, 2011, 8:27 AM
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flesh wrote:
To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

Flesh,
What are the names of your projects? It seems like you might be based out of Salt Lake as you mention Steve Maisch a lot. I am always looking for people to train with or talk training with.
cheers,
Brendan


ghisino


Jun 22, 2011, 9:10 AM
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for sport routes my first try would be to simply boulder the individual moves/sequences a bit, at least if it's convenient enough.

for actual boulders i'd use every possible trick to get a feel of the next hold and, if possible, ask someone to push me up a bit while i try the move.

sometimes moves you are 100% physically ready for still feel ackward and almost impossible at first try.
Yet 20 tries later the move is rock solid.

Of course there are also many cases where after trying a lot i just feel that i'm not ready for the move.

whether i'll try to train specifically for it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it's just obvious that I just need some extra crimp/open hand/reach/power/flexibility/whatever...

Sometimes i train in a gym where i am allowed to build a good "simulator".

If not, well, i just leave it for a while...


erisspirit


Jun 22, 2011, 9:13 AM
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

*facepalm*


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 9:31 AM
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ghisino wrote:
for sport routes my first try would be to simply boulder the individual moves/sequences a bit, at least if it's convenient enough.

for actual boulders i'd use every possible trick to get a feel of the next hold and, if possible, ask someone to push me up a bit while i try the move.

sometimes moves you are 100% physically ready for still feel ackward and almost impossible at first try.
Yet 20 tries later the move is rock solid.

Of course there are also many cases where after trying a lot i just feel that i'm not ready for the move.

whether i'll try to train specifically for it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it's just obvious that I just need some extra crimp/open hand/reach/power/flexibility/whatever...

Sometimes i train in a gym where i am allowed to build a good "simulator".

If not, well, i just leave it for a while...

Ok thnx


jt512


Jun 22, 2011, 9:36 AM
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?.




(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 22, 2011, 9:58 AM)


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 9:44 AM
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.



dudlej01


Jun 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:09 AM
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Re: [dudlej01] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

If it works well I'll add it to my campus video. This might be the next step. I'm already on the smallest rung I can use open handed and I'm up to 15 lbs. So once I get to 30 lbs maybe I can switch to this and add weight if necessary as well.


(This post was edited by flesh on Jun 22, 2011, 11:12 AM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:18 AM
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flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:32 AM
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ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:43 AM
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dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 12:01 PM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:50 AM
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flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

True, but i do not think half crimp is quite the same as power crimping. I only added half crimp because it ment i could use my pinky finger, i could not get away with just ignoring it. I certainly would not half crimp in taps or doubles, but given the fact deadhangs has little to no movement (other than slowly going to multiple lock off positions with arms) their is no sharp or dangerous increase in force.

Although maybe i have to take into account that even while adding 30 lb.. since im so damn skinny.. the combined weight would not take me far past what would be most peoples normal weight.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 11:55 AM)


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 12:03 PM
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There probably is a correlation between weight and finger injuries.


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 12:48 PM
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ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)
Show me where I said that. Are you seriously that dense? Do I really have to spell it out?
Also your original statement was
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.
So can a climber "just climb"? Yes, whether that is indoor or outdoor, they can "just climb" to train, just as a cyclist can "just cycle" indoor or outdoors. Your problem is that you are lumping indoor climbing with campusing and weighted hangs etc, which are not the same thing as just climbing and should be considered supplement training. Cycling and many other sports do not have this "supplemental training" analog so your conclusion was based on false assumptions. Whether or not campusing or weighted workouts helps climbing is not supported by your notion that all other sports have "supplemental training"


jt512


Jun 22, 2011, 1:27 PM
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ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.




spikeddem


Jun 22, 2011, 1:38 PM
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This thread makes me cringe.


johnwesely


Jun 22, 2011, 1:45 PM
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flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

When I used to campus, I could campus on a half pad edge without crimping. Maybe you should get better on openhanding small holds.


jbro_135


Jun 22, 2011, 2:17 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

True, but i do not think half crimp is quite the same as power crimping. I only added half crimp because it ment i could use my pinky finger, i could not get away with just ignoring it. I certainly would not half crimp in taps or doubles, but given the fact deadhangs has little to no movement (other than slowly going to multiple lock off positions with arms) their is no sharp or dangerous increase in force.

Although maybe i have to take into account that even while adding 30 lb.. since im so damn skinny.. the combined weight would not take me far past what would be most peoples normal weight.

maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 2:17 PM
Post #52 of 57 (646 views)
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Re: [redlude97] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)
Show me where I said that. Are you seriously that dense? Do I really have to spell it out?
Also your original statement was
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.
So can a climber "just climb"? Yes, whether that is indoor or outdoor, they can "just climb" to train, just as a cyclist can "just cycle" indoor or outdoors. Your problem is that you are lumping indoor climbing with campusing and weighted hangs etc, which are not the same thing as just climbing and should be considered supplement training. Cycling and many other sports do not have this "supplemental training" analog so your conclusion was based on false assumptions. Whether or not campusing or weighted workouts helps climbing is not supported by your notion that all other sports have "supplemental training"

Well, kinda put words into your mouth, sorry.

Anyway, the reason i asked about the supplementary training is because so many people have the opinion that anything but climbing out door is second rate. They come across in such a way where they think nothing else is even worth while or yields credible gains. Many times on this forum alone i have seen people give such comments as ''ok you can climb v6 in door.. that will mean v2 outdoor''. I mean cmon?... seriously?.. that's complete bs, at least i have personally witnessed that claim to be wildly wrong.

Not everybody can get to the crag when ever they feel like it.. and even if they could.. they may not have a quality and broad amount of grades (for example the closest 8b to me is a 10 hour round trip). So.. i see supplementary training as my only option to get strong enough for such routes when i do make trips further afield. I see the likes of fleshes improvement as a positive sign to that view.

The notion of ''just climb'', take jay for example. I really can not picture him to be the type who would do anything but that. He knows his shit and he is certainly well able.. but even with all that why does he appear to be have been stuck in a long plateau?. I also noticed myself getting into one maybe a year back.. but now the past months i seem to be going from strength to strength.. and i am actually climbing less than ever.

The likes of mcleod, graham and so.. do you think they got that strong because of just climbing?. I think the answer is either A. no.. they targeted and improved on specific weaknesses at any given time or B. yes.. because they had plenty of high quality routes at their disposal to progress on (and if not.. were more dedicated to hit the road at a whim to find them).

I think i may have went wildly off the point.. not that i can recall what it was in the first place Unsure.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 2:31 PM
Post #53 of 57 (642 views)
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Re: [jbro_135] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 4:52 PM
Post #54 of 57 (629 views)
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Anyway, the reason i asked about the supplementary training is because so many people have the opinion that anything but climbing out door is second rate. They come across in such a way where they think nothing else is even worth while or yields credible gains. Many times on this forum alone i have seen people give such comments as ''ok you can climb v6 in door.. that will mean v2 outdoor''. I mean cmon?... seriously?.. that's complete bs, at least i have personally witnessed that claim to be wildly wrong.

Not everybody can get to the crag when ever they feel like it.. and even if they could.. they may not have a quality and broad amount of grades (for example the closest 8b to me is a 10 hour round trip). So.. i see supplementary training as my only option to get strong enough for such routes when i do make trips further afield. I see the likes of fleshes improvement as a positive sign to that view.

The notion of ''just climb'', take jay for example. I really can not picture him to be the type who would do anything but that. He knows his shit and he is certainly well able.. but even with all that why does he appear to be have been stuck in a long plateau?. I also noticed myself getting into one maybe a year back.. but now the past months i seem to be going from strength to strength.. and i am actually climbing less than ever.

The likes of mcleod, graham and so.. do you think they got that strong because of just climbing?. I think the answer is either A. no.. they targeted and improved on specific weaknesses at any given time or B. yes.. because they had plenty of high quality routes at their disposal to progress on (and if not.. were more dedicated to hit the road at a whim to find them).

I think i may have went wildly off the point.. not that i can recall what it was in the first place Unsure.
What gave you this silly idea? Every time someone asks about training advice, one of the first suggestions is to get a copy of the self coached climber. Guess what the majority of the exersizes in that book are designed for? Gym climbing! When people say to get better at climbing to "just climb" that doesn't mean outside only. The vast majority of climbers train in a gym for peak performance outdoors.


jbro_135


Jun 22, 2011, 5:03 PM
Post #55 of 57 (625 views)
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
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maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.



You can't train your fast-twitch pinky muscles if you're not using it


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 5:18 PM
Post #56 of 57 (621 views)
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Re: [jbro_135] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.



You can't train your fast-twitch pinky muscles if you're not using it

Laugh


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:28 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

When I used to campus, I could campus on a half pad edge without crimping. Maybe you should get better on openhanding small holds.

Don't worry about it.


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