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flesh


Jun 21, 2011, 5:14 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So when I train, it's all about this, how can I put more weight on my fingers (for power, more weight=more power) without getting injured. For me and I suspect most, injuries are more likely to occur from crimping vs open handed. So my goal is simply to find the best way to put the most weight on my fingers in the open hand position.

The best way I've found to do this is doing doubles on a decent size rung that allows me to stay open handed (in general the smaller the rung, the harder it is to stay open, or the smaller the rung, your fingers naturally move into a open crimp position). Instead of using a smaller rung as I get stronger I add weight, up to 30 lbs in some cases, once again, so I can stay open while putting more weight on my fingers= more finga powa!

If anyone can figure out a better way to put more weight on your fingers than this while staying open I'd love to know. You would have to take into the dynamic weight effect to figure this out. In otherwords, I know if I hand off one small open handed sloper with one had it would be more weight than if I was haning off a rung with both hands, but, would it be more weight than that one second in time when I go up or down doing doubles with 20 lbs on my back?

More importantly is this, is the training your doing producing results? In my case, the way i campus, am I going up in reps/weight over time in a controllable measurable way? Is it improving my climbing? The answer is yes, proofs in the pudding. That's all i need to know, I don't care what twitch it is.

In just the last 2 months I went from a best of 8 reps without weight on a one pad open hand rung doing doubles with 10 minute rests betweeen to my current best which was yesterday, I did 12 reps on one set with 14 lbs and 10 reps on two sets with 15 lbs. Is it improving my climbing? I haven't gone up in grades yet, but it's too hot to send hard outside, I suspect I'll go up in grades this fall. However, I am climbing boulders inside that are below my limit much faster than before. Also, alot of the problems I'm doing no one else in my gym has done, which tells me they must be hard ;), plus, this didn't use to happen very often.

ceebo if your fingers aren't failing before your pull muscles on the larger rungs while adding weight try this.

1. don't focus on skipping as many rungs on the way up. Start near the top, only go up one rung, not skipping any, then on the way down, skip 2 rungs, this focuses more on the fingers and less on the pull muscles, doubles of course.

2. Use step one and add more weight, I've added up to 30lbs at this point.


redlude97


Jun 21, 2011, 6:06 PM
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Re: [jt512] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Re: [flesh] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

So when I train, it's all about this, how can I put more weight on my fingers (for power, more weight=more power) without getting injured. For me and I suspect most, injuries are more likely to occur from crimping vs open handed. So my goal is simply to find the best way to put the most weight on my fingers in the open hand position.

The best way I've found to do this is doing doubles on a decent size rung that allows me to stay open handed (in general the smaller the rung, the harder it is to stay open, or the smaller the rung, your fingers naturally move into a open crimp position). Instead of using a smaller rung as I get stronger I add weight, up to 30 lbs in some cases, once again, so I can stay open while putting more weight on my fingers= more finga powa!

If anyone can figure out a better way to put more weight on your fingers than this while staying open I'd love to know. You would have to take into the dynamic weight effect to figure this out. In otherwords, I know if I hand off one small open handed sloper with one had it would be more weight than if I was haning off a rung with both hands, but, would it be more weight than that one second in time when I go up or down doing doubles with 20 lbs on my back?

More importantly is this, is the training your doing producing results? In my case, the way i campus, am I going up in reps/weight over time in a controllable measurable way? Is it improving my climbing? The answer is yes, proofs in the pudding. That's all i need to know, I don't care what twitch it is.

In just the last 2 months I went from a best of 8 reps without weight on a one pad open hand rung doing doubles with 10 minute rests betweeen to my current best which was yesterday, I did 12 reps on one set with 14 lbs and 10 reps on two sets with 15 lbs. Is it improving my climbing? I haven't gone up in grades yet, but it's too hot to send hard outside, I suspect I'll go up in grades this fall. However, I am climbing boulders inside that are below my limit much faster than before. Also, alot of the problems I'm doing no one else in my gym has done, which tells me they must be hard ;), plus, this didn't use to happen very often.

ceebo if your fingers aren't failing before your pull muscles on the larger rungs while adding weight try this.

1. don't focus on skipping as many rungs on the way up. Start near the top, only go up one rung, not skipping any, then on the way down, skip 2 rungs, this focuses more on the fingers and less on the pull muscles, doubles of course.

2. Use step one and add more weight, I've added up to 30lbs at this point.

If you are saying that with certainty then its all very clear. Is it possible to reach that kind of force with my 3/4 rail weighted taps? (could you maybe test a set just to compare? or have you already?). If not then i need new rungs.


ceebo


Jun 21, 2011, 6:10 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try


redlude97


Jun 21, 2011, 6:24 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 3:51 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 3:55 AM)


ghisino


Jun 22, 2011, 5:23 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I''ll answer in three parts.

A. "yes there are times where a targeted exercise will be way more effective than "just climbing".

most commonly it would be because the bouldering (or lead) wall and your local outdoor boulders/crags don't offer the kind of stimulus you need.
eg if i want to train for frankenjura but my gym and outdoor venues don't offer pockets, i'll fingerboard a lot...

in a few occasions it is just easier to first develop the muscle and then the technique that uses it than doing both at the same time.
eg, my footwork on steep stuff improved drastically when i started to work on the front lever.


B.but for 90% of climbers the biggest limitations are elsewhere.
extreme example.
Being climbing with this strong newbie lately.
Very clear 8b redpoint/7c OS potential if only he knew how to get 100% out of the machine (i climb close enough to those grades, eand seen him in enough situations, to judge)
Made his first 7a OS and 7b+ OS a few days ago on routes chosen to suit his strenghts.
This climber just needs lots of mileage on easy and hard ground, before the day when some part of his body will be a major limiting factor...even for the indoor lead routes where he already excels.

C.Non-climbing training supplements are hard to master, for a few reasons.
-assessing what muscular deficit limits you (if any) is often tricky.
-boards, systems, weight rooms...things that produce measurable gains (from 8 to 10 reps, from 0 to 20 lbs). Dangerously rewarding: many shift their focus from their initial objective to the campus exercise in itself
-Muscular gains often happen faster than the technique changes needed to make the most out of them (unless you're a kid maybe. kids learn fast). This means that during a heavy "training supplementation" cycle you'll inevitably shift from being muscle-limited to being technique-limited.




it is also important to note that in other sports
a) non-specific training is mostly done by elite athletes who already put up the max possible hours of specific training : more than that, and they'll either get an overuse injury or start to hate their own sport.
Pro swimmers do weight work to keep balanced and squeeze that extra small %. Amateur swimmers don't even get close to the point where an hour of weight room work is more valuable than one hour in the water.
b)non-specific training is sometimes done by amateurs if there's a clear "season Vs off-season" separation. Non competing climbers rarely have a true off-season, unless they live in very unlucky places and never go on a trip...



btw
i consider indoor climbing as "just climbing" for a number of reasons...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jun 22, 2011, 5:30 AM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 6:38 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.

I''ll answer in three parts.

A. "yes there are times where a targeted exercise will be way more effective than "just climbing".

most commonly it would be because the bouldering (or lead) wall and your local outdoor boulders/crags don't offer the kind of stimulus you need.
eg if i want to train for frankenjura but my gym and outdoor venues don't offer pockets, i'll fingerboard a lot...

in a few occasions it is just easier to first develop the muscle and then the technique that uses it than doing both at the same time.
eg, my footwork on steep stuff improved drastically when i started to work on the front lever.


B.but for 90% of climbers the biggest limitations are elsewhere.
extreme example.
Being climbing with this strong newbie lately.
Very clear 8b redpoint/7c OS potential if only he knew how to get 100% out of the machine (i climb close enough to those grades, eand seen him in enough situations, to judge)
Made his first 7a OS and 7b+ OS a few days ago on routes chosen to suit his strenghts.
This climber just needs lots of mileage on easy and hard ground, before the day when some part of his body will be a major limiting factor...even for the indoor lead routes where he already excels.

C.Non-climbing training supplements are hard to master, for a few reasons.
-assessing what muscular deficit limits you (if any) is often tricky.
-boards, systems, weight rooms...things that produce measurable gains (from 8 to 10 reps, from 0 to 20 lbs). Dangerously rewarding: many shift their focus from their initial objective to the campus exercise in itself
-Muscular gains often happen faster than the technique changes needed to make the most out of them (unless you're a kid maybe. kids learn fast). This means that during a heavy "training supplementation" cycle you'll inevitably shift from being muscle-limited to being technique-limited.





btw
i consider indoor climbing as "just climbing".
I see many indoor-only climbers where i live.
I've known a few climbers whose objective #1 are competitions.
And anyway, even for those of us who care about the outdoors, indoor bouldering/lead is the closest we can do to "the real thing" during the week.

Well you talk sense. Anyway, i have some more questions and thoughts.. since you seem to have the interest.

You said it can be much easier to have the strength to engage the proper technique for a route. So from that im thinking purely on a red/project perspective, that being my only interest in climbing these days.

These routes to me feel like a puzzle that will always need X amount of time to figure everything out. It certainly feels that regardless of what level on sight is.. or how many routes climbed in the past, a project route still demands a certain chunk of route specific learning/physical gains that a large amount of other climbing will probably never obtain. Unless ofc you leave such a route and made huge gains else where before going back to it some time later.. but then it would not be a project any more.

So when not working a route, would it be of greater advantage to spend that time accurately targeting things in campusing, dead hangs, lock offs, core.. basically anything felt to be a physical limiting factor for the current project?. Rather than wondering around trying to find routes that vaguely resemble my intended area of improvement (and the risk of adding variables that reduce the gains).

If i do have a technical problem with the project then how likely is it i can solve that by climbing other things as a form of preperation?. Also, can you really confirm that climbing other routes will actually yield technical gains for the project?.. i can understand the physical gains sure. At this point i feel the concept of technique is well established. The refinement or modification of it to a individual move however i assume can only every be obtained by doing that individual move. Not by doing a move on another route that felt a ''close'' comparison.. at least that's my thoughts.

For people who just wish to on sight, i can sure see the need to put in many many miles to get a broad refinement of moves. I can see how that would enable them to better adjust moves on the fly while climbing something with in their limit. I wonder if the same kind of thing is really needed for projecting though.. perhaps it could be more efficient to vastly narrow down the scope to push harder and harder grades in the desired climbing style.

A interesting experiment, maybe just to me.. is to have a complete new climber given a 9a project (or a more modest 8a even) with no other form of climbing. It would be great to see how long it would take that climber to send that route by training only with hang boards, campusing and core work outs etc. I think it is possible if the training started on the boards at a really low level.. untill tendons and all the rest of it are able to sustain that level of climbing with ought injury. Dunno.. i think it would be quite surprising how fast he would get up to that level. He certainly would not need to climb thousands of other routes just to learn the moves of 1.


grayhghost


Jun 22, 2011, 8:27 AM
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Re: [flesh] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
To be quite honest ceebo, I try not to overcomplicate things. These are MY goals, and i base my training on them.

1. To progress as quickly as possible.
2. To never get injured again.
3. To train for a boulder comp coming up
4. after that to train for a red point I've wanted for 9 years since before my bad injury
5. after the redpoint, to climb three specific boulders this fall

Flesh,
What are the names of your projects? It seems like you might be based out of Salt Lake as you mention Steve Maisch a lot. I am always looking for people to train with or talk training with.
cheers,
Brendan


ghisino


Jun 22, 2011, 9:10 AM
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for sport routes my first try would be to simply boulder the individual moves/sequences a bit, at least if it's convenient enough.

for actual boulders i'd use every possible trick to get a feel of the next hold and, if possible, ask someone to push me up a bit while i try the move.

sometimes moves you are 100% physically ready for still feel ackward and almost impossible at first try.
Yet 20 tries later the move is rock solid.

Of course there are also many cases where after trying a lot i just feel that i'm not ready for the move.

whether i'll try to train specifically for it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it's just obvious that I just need some extra crimp/open hand/reach/power/flexibility/whatever...

Sometimes i train in a gym where i am allowed to build a good "simulator".

If not, well, i just leave it for a while...


erisspirit


Jun 22, 2011, 9:13 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

*facepalm*


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Re: [ghisino] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ghisino wrote:
for sport routes my first try would be to simply boulder the individual moves/sequences a bit, at least if it's convenient enough.

for actual boulders i'd use every possible trick to get a feel of the next hold and, if possible, ask someone to push me up a bit while i try the move.

sometimes moves you are 100% physically ready for still feel ackward and almost impossible at first try.
Yet 20 tries later the move is rock solid.

Of course there are also many cases where after trying a lot i just feel that i'm not ready for the move.

whether i'll try to train specifically for it depends on the situation.

Sometimes it's just obvious that I just need some extra crimp/open hand/reach/power/flexibility/whatever...

Sometimes i train in a gym where i am allowed to build a good "simulator".

If not, well, i just leave it for a while...

Ok thnx


jt512


Jun 22, 2011, 9:36 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?.




(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 22, 2011, 9:58 AM)


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 9:44 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.



dudlej01


Jun 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:09 AM
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I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

If it works well I'll add it to my campus video. This might be the next step. I'm already on the smallest rung I can use open handed and I'm up to 15 lbs. So once I get to 30 lbs maybe I can switch to this and add weight if necessary as well.


(This post was edited by flesh on Jun 22, 2011, 11:12 AM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:18 AM
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Re: [flesh] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:32 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:43 AM
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Re: [dudlej01] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 12:01 PM)


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 11:50 AM
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Re: [flesh] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

True, but i do not think half crimp is quite the same as power crimping. I only added half crimp because it ment i could use my pinky finger, i could not get away with just ignoring it. I certainly would not half crimp in taps or doubles, but given the fact deadhangs has little to no movement (other than slowly going to multiple lock off positions with arms) their is no sharp or dangerous increase in force.

Although maybe i have to take into account that even while adding 30 lb.. since im so damn skinny.. the combined weight would not take me far past what would be most peoples normal weight.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2011, 11:55 AM)


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 12:03 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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There probably is a correlation between weight and finger injuries.


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)
Show me where I said that. Are you seriously that dense? Do I really have to spell it out?
Also your original statement was
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.
So can a climber "just climb"? Yes, whether that is indoor or outdoor, they can "just climb" to train, just as a cyclist can "just cycle" indoor or outdoors. Your problem is that you are lumping indoor climbing with campusing and weighted hangs etc, which are not the same thing as just climbing and should be considered supplement training. Cycling and many other sports do not have this "supplemental training" analog so your conclusion was based on false assumptions. Whether or not campusing or weighted workouts helps climbing is not supported by your notion that all other sports have "supplemental training"


jt512


Jun 22, 2011, 1:27 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.




spikeddem


Jun 22, 2011, 1:38 PM
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Re: [jt512] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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This thread makes me cringe.


johnwesely


Jun 22, 2011, 1:45 PM
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Posts: 5343

Re: [flesh] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

When I used to campus, I could campus on a half pad edge without crimping. Maybe you should get better on openhanding small holds.

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