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Importance of fast twitch?
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jbro_135


Jun 22, 2011, 2:17 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

True, but i do not think half crimp is quite the same as power crimping. I only added half crimp because it ment i could use my pinky finger, i could not get away with just ignoring it. I certainly would not half crimp in taps or doubles, but given the fact deadhangs has little to no movement (other than slowly going to multiple lock off positions with arms) their is no sharp or dangerous increase in force.

Although maybe i have to take into account that even while adding 30 lb.. since im so damn skinny.. the combined weight would not take me far past what would be most peoples normal weight.

maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 2:17 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
dudlej01 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Actually there are many sports where just doing that sport is about the best you thing you can do, and that crosstraining hasn't been found to be particularly beneficial. One of which is cycling, with the exception of track sprints almost all cyclists train by cycling more, no need for weight lifting or running to maximize gains.

My step father is an avid cyclist yet he also uses his own indoor cycle machine allot. He knows his shit about biking so i can't see him doing it with ought good reason.

*facepalm*
I don't even know how to answer this one....

Please try
Indoor gym climbing->Outdoor climbing
Indoor cycle machine->Cycling

So what you are saying is that when the roads are full of snow/ice OR the crag is soaking wet, doing nothing is better than heading indoor?. Ok. Or lets add multiple other scenarios where doing the obvious is not possible. Again, doing nothing is better?.. bolix.

I believe redlude is saying indoor cycling is not cross for cycling, because it is also cycling.

Cross training would be, for example, lifting weights.

Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part.

That was my original text, maybe my definition of supplementary training is wrong. I did not think it was the same as ''cross training''. If sprinter wants to build power in legs then i assume he can do some supplementary leg weight training for that. If a cyclist wants to train ascent endurance but has no hill/mountain big enough in his area.. then he can use a indoor machine where the tension band (or what ever) can mimic steep terrain allowing him to work to his own level.

They have options to see improvement under circumstances other than their intended sport (but not instead of).

I can't quite believe that the likes of campusing, indoor climbing and anything of that nature could not be considered supplementary training. He is trying to make it out as though these are cross training.

(yes the sprinter example was a bad one)
Show me where I said that. Are you seriously that dense? Do I really have to spell it out?
Also your original statement was
ceebo wrote:
Also something that bothers me. Every sport seems to have other supplementary training.. but for us it is still seen as not applicable for the most part. This is a genuine question with no sarcasm intended. Do you really think climbers can ''just climb'' and actually train every muscle group used to its optimal level?.
So can a climber "just climb"? Yes, whether that is indoor or outdoor, they can "just climb" to train, just as a cyclist can "just cycle" indoor or outdoors. Your problem is that you are lumping indoor climbing with campusing and weighted hangs etc, which are not the same thing as just climbing and should be considered supplement training. Cycling and many other sports do not have this "supplemental training" analog so your conclusion was based on false assumptions. Whether or not campusing or weighted workouts helps climbing is not supported by your notion that all other sports have "supplemental training"

Well, kinda put words into your mouth, sorry.

Anyway, the reason i asked about the supplementary training is because so many people have the opinion that anything but climbing out door is second rate. They come across in such a way where they think nothing else is even worth while or yields credible gains. Many times on this forum alone i have seen people give such comments as ''ok you can climb v6 in door.. that will mean v2 outdoor''. I mean cmon?... seriously?.. that's complete bs, at least i have personally witnessed that claim to be wildly wrong.

Not everybody can get to the crag when ever they feel like it.. and even if they could.. they may not have a quality and broad amount of grades (for example the closest 8b to me is a 10 hour round trip). So.. i see supplementary training as my only option to get strong enough for such routes when i do make trips further afield. I see the likes of fleshes improvement as a positive sign to that view.

The notion of ''just climb'', take jay for example. I really can not picture him to be the type who would do anything but that. He knows his shit and he is certainly well able.. but even with all that why does he appear to be have been stuck in a long plateau?. I also noticed myself getting into one maybe a year back.. but now the past months i seem to be going from strength to strength.. and i am actually climbing less than ever.

The likes of mcleod, graham and so.. do you think they got that strong because of just climbing?. I think the answer is either A. no.. they targeted and improved on specific weaknesses at any given time or B. yes.. because they had plenty of high quality routes at their disposal to progress on (and if not.. were more dedicated to hit the road at a whim to find them).

I think i may have went wildly off the point.. not that i can recall what it was in the first place Unsure.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Re: [jbro_135] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.


redlude97


Jun 22, 2011, 4:52 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Anyway, the reason i asked about the supplementary training is because so many people have the opinion that anything but climbing out door is second rate. They come across in such a way where they think nothing else is even worth while or yields credible gains. Many times on this forum alone i have seen people give such comments as ''ok you can climb v6 in door.. that will mean v2 outdoor''. I mean cmon?... seriously?.. that's complete bs, at least i have personally witnessed that claim to be wildly wrong.

Not everybody can get to the crag when ever they feel like it.. and even if they could.. they may not have a quality and broad amount of grades (for example the closest 8b to me is a 10 hour round trip). So.. i see supplementary training as my only option to get strong enough for such routes when i do make trips further afield. I see the likes of fleshes improvement as a positive sign to that view.

The notion of ''just climb'', take jay for example. I really can not picture him to be the type who would do anything but that. He knows his shit and he is certainly well able.. but even with all that why does he appear to be have been stuck in a long plateau?. I also noticed myself getting into one maybe a year back.. but now the past months i seem to be going from strength to strength.. and i am actually climbing less than ever.

The likes of mcleod, graham and so.. do you think they got that strong because of just climbing?. I think the answer is either A. no.. they targeted and improved on specific weaknesses at any given time or B. yes.. because they had plenty of high quality routes at their disposal to progress on (and if not.. were more dedicated to hit the road at a whim to find them).

I think i may have went wildly off the point.. not that i can recall what it was in the first place Unsure.
What gave you this silly idea? Every time someone asks about training advice, one of the first suggestions is to get a copy of the self coached climber. Guess what the majority of the exersizes in that book are designed for? Gym climbing! When people say to get better at climbing to "just climb" that doesn't mean outside only. The vast majority of climbers train in a gym for peak performance outdoors.


jbro_135


Jun 22, 2011, 5:03 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
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maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.



You can't train your fast-twitch pinky muscles if you're not using it


ceebo


Jun 22, 2011, 5:18 PM
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Re: [jbro_135] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
maybe you should use different shaped holds so you can use your pinky...just a radical idea to throw out there

I would, if the idea was not to get stronger.



You can't train your fast-twitch pinky muscles if you're not using it

Laugh


flesh


Jun 22, 2011, 11:28 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Importance of fast twitch? [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
flesh wrote:
ceebo wrote:
flesh wrote:
I think I figured out a way to answer my own question, that is, how to put more weight on my fingers without getting injured. I'll try it when I get back from my trip and let you know how it works.

So far I haven't been able to do one arm campusing. But I was thinking if I started at the top, with one hand and campused down, It wouldn't require the pull muscles necessary to campus up. It would put alot of weight on my fingers for a second. I could probably use the biggest, two pad rung, for safety, and it would still be very difficult.

But then you may just get a shoulder, wrist or elbow injury instead, or are you thinking 1 rung only?. Why don't you give weighted taps a go on smaller rungs, it may not (i don't know for sure) see the same peak in force as in big rung doubles.. but because of that you could easier control the adding of more weight OR do 3 finger open.

Atm i do taps 3 finger open with 20 lb, but i also added half crimp dead hangs with 30 lb. It feels like a realy nice finger work out.. but i have no idea if it will compete with what you have been doing or intend to do now in doubles.

Could be, I don't see it hurting my elbows as they would only barely engage. Most of the force would be taken by the shoulder and fingers oc. It could cause shoulder problems, just have to test it out. I've only ever had one small injury on one shoulder so I think it will be okay.

I never use smaller rungs and never will. I'm currently using the smallest rung I can while remaining open handed. I refuse to power train my fingers in anything but an open handed position. I'll add more weight long before I'd ever consider that. All 9 fingers injuries I've had are from crimping, not one from open hand. I would never suggest someone train power crimping. The gains will be there but for most, the forced time off from injuries will negate any short term gains in the long run, IMO.

Plus, my friends who can power crimp regularly without injuries tell me that there fingers still get sore and hurt and because of this, they tend to climb less often when there fingers hurt. Cumatively, the loss of climbing days over time from this I believe would negate the short term gains. In otherwords, if you averaged 2-3 days /week of climbing due to finger soreness you'd get better faster over time if you climb open more and could climb 3-4 days a week, just a theory.

When I used to campus, I could campus on a half pad edge without crimping. Maybe you should get better on openhanding small holds.

Don't worry about it.

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