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a few "gunks" questions
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tomhaegler


Jun 22, 2011, 2:45 PM
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a few "gunks" questions  (North_America: United_States: New_York)
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I'm from Switzerland and usually climbing in the Swiss alps. But I'm in NYC for two weeks (also visiting my cousin upstate) and thought about doing some climbing in the "gunks".

- I would be there mid october, is this a good season to climb there?
- What kind of equipment do I need to bring over? (Here in the alps, a lot of the multipitch are bolted, do I need to bring a full trad rack? Is a single rope ok, or would I need to bring my half ropes?)
- I'm not sure if a friend is coming along or not. if not: is it easy to find a climbing partner there?

thanks!!
tom


olderic


Jun 22, 2011, 2:57 PM
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Re: [tomhaegler] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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You'll get a ton of answers.
1. mid October should be pretty good although you could get a rainy spell. But it you have 2 weeks and can pick and choose your days you are guaranteed to get some pretty nice ones.
2. Most will recommend a full trad rack. You can do without larger gear for the most part.
3. Some swear by double ropes but for the most part you will do fine with a single.


A-Bowl


Jun 22, 2011, 3:21 PM
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If you dont want to spend the rediculous $15 a person to climb each day I reccomend getting in and on the walls before 7am and leaving after 8pm. Spend the whole day on the rock and you're good. Plus you'll get a ton more done. I hear they pop you pretty good if you walk around on the carriage road and the further down you go the less likely you are to run into ranger danger. I wouldn't know though cuz they never got me.


dbogardus


Jun 22, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [olderic] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
You'll get a ton of answers.
1. mid October should be pretty good although you could get a rainy spell. But it you have 2 weeks and can pick and choose your days you are guaranteed to get some pretty nice ones.
2. Most will recommend a full trad rack. You can do without larger gear for the most part.
3. Some swear by double ropes but for the most part you will do fine with a single.

What he said. October is a great time to climb, you'll need gear, and I always prefer a single.

I may be looking for a partner if you're showing up solo. PM me if you'd like.


smallclimber


Jun 22, 2011, 6:30 PM
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Re: [tomhaegler] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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If you are going to climb for several days buy a annual pass it'll work out cheaper. Do not try to evade the day fee, the climbing is on private land and the fee goes towards maintance (eg the outhouses) etc.

October is a great time to climb, also the busiest, but if you can get there in the week it will be quiet. You'll need a trad rack. Double ropes will speed up some rapells, but most parties just use a single.

Have fun.


tomhaegler


Jun 22, 2011, 8:12 PM
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Thanks everybody for the fast answers. Park fee is no problem for me - as Id really like to support the area...

One more question about the trad stuff: How much gear do I need? Ive got cams 0.75 - 2 and a DMM nuts set, a few slings and biners. But I think I will be picking up more gear there (there must be some climbing shops around...)

Tom


horseshoe


Jun 22, 2011, 8:19 PM
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tomhaegler wrote:
But I think I will be picking up more gear there (there must be some climbing shops around...)

Tom

Definitely check out Rock and Snow in New Paltz!
http://www.rockandsnow.com/


johnwesely


Jun 22, 2011, 8:43 PM
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tomhaegler wrote:
Thanks everybody for the fast answers. Park fee is no problem for me - as Id really like to support the area...

One more question about the trad stuff: How much gear do I need? Ive got cams 0.75 - 2 and a DMM nuts set, a few slings and biners. But I think I will be picking up more gear there (there must be some climbing shops around...)

Tom

Get master cams or similar 1-4 and you will have a completely adequate gunks rack. Maybe pick up tricams too.


Partner rgold


Jun 22, 2011, 10:04 PM
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Re: [tomhaegler] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Mid-October is about as good as it gets in the Gunks. You've already gotten some gear recommendations, and yes, you'll need a good trad rack, including smaller cams then you have now. Double ropes are good if you know how to use them effectively, but plenty of people manage fine with a single.

If it was you and friend coming over to climb together, than you'd need all this stuff, but if you are planning to find someone here to climb with (and that shouldn't be too hard) then why not use their rack and rope and just come over with your shoes, harness, and belay device? Hauling all that trad gear over for a few days of climbing seems like a lot of unnecessary effort (and money in overweight charges).

The Mohonk day pass is no more than you'd spend for a few hours at a climbing gym. Thanks for explicitly disregarding people who trespass on private land out of some self-centered sense of entitlement and then brag about it on the internet.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jun 22, 2011, 10:13 PM)


tomhaegler


Jun 22, 2011, 11:44 PM
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In reply to:
If it was you and friend coming over to climb together, than you'd need all this stuff, but if you are planning to find someone here to climb with (and that shouldn't be too hard) then why not use their rack and rope and just come over with your shoes, harness, and belay device? Hauling all that trad gear over for a few days of climbing seems like a lot of unnecessary effort (and money in overweight charges).

That sounds reasonable! Maybe I uninvite my friend Wink - or find two people to climb with...

Thanks again for all the info...


xbrianx1990


Jun 25, 2011, 5:26 AM
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One more question about the trad stuff: How much gear do I need? Ive got cams 0.75 - 2 and a DMM nuts set, a few slings and biners.

Most routes at the Gunks are wandering so a few slings and biners probably is not enough. Most people carry 6-12 tripled "trad draws".


scrapedape


Jun 25, 2011, 7:57 AM
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xbrianx1990 wrote:
One more question about the trad stuff: How much gear do I need? Ive got cams 0.75 - 2 and a DMM nuts set, a few slings and biners.

Most routes at the Gunks are wandering so a few slings and biners probably is not enough. Most people carry 6-12 tripled "trad draws".

If you mainly use quickdraws climbing in Europe, then you could get by with 5-10 of these, as long as you add in at least 4 shoulder-length runners. Just my opinion.

As others have said, smaller cams would be helpful. I would add at least something in the Metolius #2-4 (yellow, orange, red) sizes. You could add a BD #3, but it is not critical. You probably don't need any more nuts, but a couple of tricams would be helpful (pink and red particularly).


blueeyedclimber


Jun 25, 2011, 8:10 AM
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tomhaegler wrote:
I'm from Switzerland and usually climbing in the Swiss alps. But I'm in NYC for two weeks (also visiting my cousin upstate) and thought about doing some climbing in the "gunks".

- I would be there mid october, is this a good season to climb there?
- What kind of equipment do I need to bring over? (Here in the alps, a lot of the multipitch are bolted, do I need to bring a full trad rack? Is a single rope ok, or would I need to bring my half ropes?)
- I'm not sure if a friend is coming along or not. if not: is it easy to find a climbing partner there?

thanks!!
tom

A lot of good answers so far, but I'll just add my two cents:

1. Pay the fee. It's privately owned. Yeah, it would be nice to climb there for free, but given the traffic that goes there, I can't imagine the state it would be in if it wasn't so taken care of.

2. Gear - in general, you do not need doubles of anything but you will want a full rack up to a #2 camalot. There are plenty of routes that take larger gear but I rarely carry anything larger than the 2. You will need smaller gear though. Gunks horizontals eat up cams/tricams and often nuts won't do. Second, Gunks routes tend to wander a bit, traverse, or go over roofs. Because of this you'll want plenty of slings (shoulder length and maybe one or two longer). Like someone said, triple them up because often you won't need them extended.

3. Weather - it IS the northeast, so you never know what's going to happen, but in general, Mid-October is the best time to go. The leaves should be in full bloom. The day are a little shorter, though. With your two weeks, you should find ample nice weather to climb in. Unless your unlucky, that is. And if we DO get unusually bad weather in October, I'll know who to blame Wink

4. As for partners, you shouldn't have too much trouble if your friend decides not to come. Post up here and on Gunks.com. Or just go to the Uberfall (the beginning section of the Trapps) and ask around.

Good luck!

Josh


tomhaegler


Jun 26, 2011, 3:36 AM
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thanks blueeyed! very useful info - now I'm really starting to look forward...


A-Bowl


Jun 26, 2011, 10:01 AM
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I guess you guys are just used to getting ripped off. $30 for my girlfriend and i to climb outdoors was way too much for me. That is the most expensive place to climb outdoors in the US and how much is a season pass? You guys are brainwashed.


A-Bowl


Jun 26, 2011, 10:09 AM
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Not saying I wouldn't buy the pass if i lived there... but think of this from the average dirtbag climber perspective, which this guy could have been, and that is just too much money. He's established that he can afford it so all the more money for that private land owners who charge for you to have the right to touch something that people shouldn't own privately in the first place.


marc801


Jun 26, 2011, 11:00 AM
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A-Bowl wrote:
... private land owners who charge for you to have the right to touch something that people shouldn't own privately in the first place.
Keep idealistically dreaming. Believe what you want, but the fact is that it is indeed private land and as such they can charge for it. If you don't like it, don't climb there. A season pass is $90, so at the current day pass rate for climbing of $17, you come out ahead on your 6th day. I find it funny that you and your GF managed to afford the trip to climb there, and probably eat out one or more times, and can afford climbing gear, and beer, yet bitch about a day fee.

Also, it's not just a climbing fee - *all* users of the land must purchase a pass. Yes, there is a surcharge for climbing. You might want to check into NY state park day fees before you start complaining about the fees in the Gunks. Enjoying the beach at Jones Beach State Park for example will run you $40/day.

I see your location is listed as Arizona. You do realize that there is a fee charged to use the Mt. Lemmon Highway for any reason, including climbing or even using an outhouse unless you have a home in Summerhaven? You do realize that all the national parks and many national monuments have an entrance fee?

We've heard this drivel and whining about the day fee at the Gunks for decades, all the way back to when it was $3. The argument is just as lame now as it was then.

STFU, n00b.


A-Bowl


Jun 26, 2011, 11:41 AM
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Thanks Marc801, ive been officially burned back into my place... Noobdom... all because I was throwing out an option for a guy. $80 a year for all the parks in the US is far less than $90 for one btw. and have fun getting your jersey tan on at that overpriced and most likely trashy beach next time youre in NY. I'll go head and opt out of that fee too.


A-Bowl


Jun 26, 2011, 11:46 AM
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Oh forgot... $80 is per car while that gunks $90 is per person. Not even the same ballpark.


marc801


Jun 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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A-Bowl wrote:
Oh forgot... $80 is per car while that gunks $90 is per person. Not even the same ballpark.
Of course they're not in the same ballpark. One is publicly funded from tax dollars and the other is private land. What don't you understand about that? Arguably, you should be more upset about the national parks charging you twice.


A-Bowl


Jun 26, 2011, 4:05 PM
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Naw, not upset. Like I said i'd pay for the pass if I lived near to the gunks and I'm happy to support something that i definately get my money out of. I can't get $17 dollars worth of climbing in a day anywhere, which is just my personal opinion. Also for the original poster... you can get into many national parks in the US for free if you enter after 10pm and leave after 10pm. Just throwin out some good beta for people who are only here for a bit and might not want to get raped to spend some time enjoying the great outdoors.


sp115


Jun 27, 2011, 6:39 AM
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A-Bowl wrote:
Naw, not upset. Like I said i'd pay for the pass if I lived near to the gunks and I'm happy to support something that i definately get my money out of. I can't get $17 dollars worth of climbing in a day anywhere, which is just my personal opinion. Also for the original poster... you can get into many national parks in the US for free if you enter after 10pm and leave after 10pm. Just throwin out some good beta for people who are only here for a bit and might not want to get raped to spend some time enjoying the great outdoors.

And by your logic you can eat for free if you wear a large coat with pockets on the inside and steal food from supermarkets.

Personally I don't give a fuck what you do, afterall we both know you're a thief, but the justifications are lame, better to just wear your badge with pride.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Jun 27, 2011, 6:42 AM)


sethg


Jun 27, 2011, 7:03 AM
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I live in NYC, climb in the Gunks and pay the annual fee. And I think if you climb there you should pay it. But I'm not surprised to hear people gripe about the day fee and talk about dodging it. It is a natural reaction, especially from such antiauthoritarian sorts as climbers. I don't know why people get so bent out of shape defending the Preserve. They have a right to charge whatever they want, and people have the right to complain about it. Why is this such a big deal?


(This post was edited by sethg on Jun 27, 2011, 7:05 AM)


johnwesely


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A-Bowl wrote:
Naw, not upset. Like I said i'd pay for the pass if I lived near to the gunks and I'm happy to support something that i definately get my money out of. I can't get $17 dollars worth of climbing in a day anywhere, which is just my personal opinion. Also for the original poster... you can get into many national parks in the US for free if you enter after 10pm and leave after 10pm. Just throwin out some good beta for people who are only here for a bit and might not want to get raped to spend some time enjoying the great outdoors.

You wouldn't spend 17 dollars for a day on El Capitan? Really? You have never spent 17 dollars worth of gas to go climbing for the day?


sp115


Jun 27, 2011, 8:04 AM
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sethg wrote:
I live in NYC, climb in the Gunks and pay the annual fee. And I think if you climb there you should pay it. But I'm not surprised to hear people gripe about the day fee and talk about dodging it. It is a natural reaction, especially from such antiauthoritarian sorts as climbers. I don't know why people get so bent out of shape defending the Preserve. They have a right to charge whatever they want, and people have the right to complain about it. Why is this such a big deal?

Because - "we are men of action, lies do not become us.", or...because this is the Intardnets and every statement is a calling to the Court of Argument.


A-Bowl


Jun 27, 2011, 9:48 AM
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Hey man, I can understand not trespassing to avoid access issues but I don't think that was the case with the gunks. If they catch you they charge you, that's what i was lead to believe. Now please explain what exactly I stole from the mohonk preserve by climbing the rocks.


marc801


Jun 27, 2011, 10:04 AM
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A-Bowl wrote:
If they catch you they charge you, that's what i was lead to believe.
Or they politely ask you to leave. Or call the local sheriff if you don't.

A-Bowl wrote:
Now please explain what exactly I stole from the mohonk preserve by climbing the rocks.
At a ski area it would be called theft of services and in most states it's a significant misdemeanor (meaning fine and possible jail time).


A-Bowl


Jun 27, 2011, 10:10 AM
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At ski resorts you do essentially steal from them assuming you use their lifts... now again explain what you steal by walking up to a rock and climbing it?


marc801


Jun 27, 2011, 10:21 AM
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A-Bowl wrote:
At ski resorts you do essentially steal from them assuming you use their lifts...
Actually, most resorts will charge you with theft of services even if you're skinning up and not using their lifts; like the Gunks, you're using their land that they maintain (to one degree or another). At a ski area, there's also snowmaking, grooming, ski patrol, parking and services infrastructure, plowing for access...ie: a *lot* more than just lifts.

But you're still missing the point that the Gunks is private land.


sp115


Jun 27, 2011, 11:00 AM
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A-Bowl wrote:
Hey man, I can understand not trespassing to avoid access issues but I don't think that was the case with the gunks. If they catch you they charge you, that's what i was lead to believe. Now please explain what exactly I stole from the mohonk preserve by climbing the rocks.

Marc has done an admirable job of explaining the finer nuances of why stealing a service is no different than stealing an object, repeating it won't add anything.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Jun 27, 2011, 9:39 PM)


rangerrob


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If I owned that cliff I'd charge your dumb ass 50 bucks a day to climb there. Stay in arizona if you don't like it, or go climb in the Adirondacks. A shit ton of rock for free. Oh, it doesn't have a conveniently well maintained carraige road running along the base of the cliff, that's probably why you didn't go there.


sp115


Jun 28, 2011, 6:01 AM
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rangerrob wrote:
If I owned that cliff...

BTW Rob, who pays for the Rangers on the Preserve? Is that Mohonk funded or paid by the state?

People might think they just collect fees but they are also there save your ass when it get's ugly and that alone is worth every penny.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Jun 28, 2011, 6:03 AM)


gblauer
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Jun 28, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Mohonk rangers are paid by the preserve.


sp115


Jun 28, 2011, 8:28 AM
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gblauer wrote:
Mohonk rangers are paid by the preserve.

Well there you go.

I would assume that should mitigate some the rape concern?


A-Bowl


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Re: [rangerrob] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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You're funny man. This thread is one of the reasons I spent over a week up in the adirondacks and a month at the new and one only one day at the gunks. Just tried to stay clear of you guys. We got the sense on the east coast that people were so used to paying for shit they actually sought it out rather than find free/cheap alternatives. Examples being everyone packed into pay camping when there was free national forest camping close by. I Guess you guys need your "services" like extra wide paved trails, paid security guards and sweet smelling toilets. I for one am super stoked your kind huddle together in groups banding together to pay some guys mortgage somewhere.


rangerrob


Jul 3, 2011, 12:36 PM
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Re: [A-Bowl] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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wow, did you learn how to stereotype in school, or does it just come naturally for you? Well, with people like John McCain representing you, I think I know the answer to that question.


bmb


Jul 21, 2011, 11:59 PM
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Re: [A-Bowl] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Regarding the fee, read a little about Gunk history. Before moving to Arizona in 2006, I lived in NY state all my life. Minnewaska State Park was previously a private preserve, too, with public access for a fee. The family who owned it went bankrupt, and had to sell in the 1980s. Guess who jumped at the opportunity? One of the major hotel chains. They proposed a hotel on the edge of the lake, condos all over, and of course lots of jobs and taxes. The state felt it couldn't afford to buy it, but at the last moment did. Many businessmen, politicians and locals were livid, but today the Shawangunks are still intact.

Moral of the story: In the real world, others will pay for our wilderness if we don't. Do you really want more commercial development in the gunks, second homes in the Adirondacks and along the New River, mansions atop Camelback Mountain in Phoenix, uranium mining next to the Grand Canyon, and dams along our rivers?


Lucas79


Oct 25, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Re: [olderic] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and add some fuel to this fire. I just moved here from CO ,(via OR), and am surprised that people aren't more outraged than they are. I'm all for paying entrance fees for access to private, state, or federally owned lands....but $17 per climber per day is ridiculous! Wouldn't be so bad if $17 gave you access for a week or two, or even if it was $17 per car per day.....but $17 a piece for one measly day of climbing? By comparison, (these are state or federally owned mind you and are much bigger climbing areas than the gunks), Eldorado Canyon $8 per car per day.....Yosemite $20 per car per week.....RMNP $20 per car per week....Red Rocks $10 per car per day......J Tree $15 per car per week.
I knew that the east coast was more expensive upon moving out here.....but $17 per person per day to climb outside?


(This post was edited by Lucas79 on Oct 25, 2011, 11:35 PM)


marc801


Oct 26, 2011, 8:06 AM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and add some fuel to this fire. I just moved here from CO ,(via OR), and am surprised that people aren't more outraged than they are. I'm all for paying entrance fees for access to private, state, or federally owned lands....but $17 per climber per day is ridiculous! Wouldn't be so bad if $17 gave you access for a week or two, or even if it was $17 per car per day.....but $17 a piece for one measly day of climbing? By comparison, (these are state or federally owned mind you and are much bigger climbing areas than the gunks), Eldorado Canyon $8 per car per day.....Yosemite $20 per car per week.....RMNP $20 per car per week....Red Rocks $10 per car per day......J Tree $15 per car per week.
I knew that the east coast was more expensive upon moving out here.....but $17 per person per day to climb outside?

Go back and carefully reread the entire thread. You're missing the key point: the Gunks is *PRIVATE LAND* held in public trust. You cannot compare it to state or federally owned parks. Comparison to private golf courses, ski areas, and hunting preserves is more apt.


shockabuku


Oct 26, 2011, 8:13 AM
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Lucas79 wrote:
Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and add some fuel to this fire. I just moved here from CO ,(via OR), and am surprised that people aren't more outraged than they are. I'm all for paying entrance fees for access to private, state, or federally owned lands....but $17 per climber per day is ridiculous! Wouldn't be so bad if $17 gave you access for a week or two, or even if it was $17 per car per day.....but $17 a piece for one measly day of climbing? By comparison, (these are state or federally owned mind you and are much bigger climbing areas than the gunks), Eldorado Canyon $8 per car per day.....Yosemite $20 per car per week.....RMNP $20 per car per week....Red Rocks $10 per car per day......J Tree $15 per car per week.
I knew that the east coast was more expensive upon moving out here.....but $17 per person per day to climb outside?

Buy a season pass. On your 6th day of climbing you're saving money.


jakedatc


Oct 26, 2011, 8:29 AM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
Yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and add some fuel to this fire. I just moved here from CO ,(via OR), and am surprised that people aren't more outraged than they are. I'm all for paying entrance fees for access to private, state, or federally owned lands....but $17 per climber per day is ridiculous! Wouldn't be so bad if $17 gave you access for a week or two, or even if it was $17 per car per day.....but $17 a piece for one measly day of climbing? By comparison, (these are state or federally owned mind you and are much bigger climbing areas than the gunks), Eldorado Canyon $8 per car per day.....Yosemite $20 per car per week.....RMNP $20 per car per week....Red Rocks $10 per car per day......J Tree $15 per car per week.
I knew that the east coast was more expensive upon moving out here.....but $17 per person per day to climb outside?

Ahem... The Spot in boulder charges $16 for a DAY pass.. to boulder in their boulder only gym. yes it's a kickass boulder gym but still. a YEAR pass is $545 bucks!

Sorry to burst your CO milk and honey bubble there brahhhhhhh but you're incorrect.


Lucas79


Oct 26, 2011, 9:50 AM
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Re: [jakedatc] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Yeah, but who's talking about climbing gyms here.....brahhh? If I'm going to a climbing gym I'm expecting to pay about that much.....but not a traditional climbing area.


olderic


Oct 26, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
Yeah, but who's talking about climbing gyms here.....brahhh? If I'm going to a climbing gym I'm expecting to pay about that much.....but not a traditional climbing area.

First and foremost - as has been stated multiple times up thread - the Mohonk Preserve is NOT primarily a traditional climbing area. It is a privately owned nature preserve where that happens to be some climbing along with biking, hiking, x-c skiing and bird watching. The majority of the Preserve members - certainly the ones with influence ($$$) probably don't particularly want you in their preserve hooting and hollering (or bitching and moaning) and generally reeking havoc on nature with your antics.

If you are a climber it implies - made the commitment to buy the gear and travel to the Gunks (how much do you think that costs?) - that you have so much discretionary income that $17 is a drop in the bucket. The annual pass cost less then the real cost of you going to the Gunks for just 1 day even before you buy a day pass.


Lucas79


Oct 26, 2011, 10:27 AM
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Re: [marc801] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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I mean, I understand that it's on private land and we're lucky that they let us climb there.....but still. They're charging to much.....no?


eRJe


Oct 26, 2011, 10:36 AM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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If there were somewhere within day trip distance of where I'm living right now, I would gladly pay more than $17 a day to climb outside. I'm living in the middle of the Canadian prairies right now. It is a 10 hour drive to get to the Rockies and see anything that is even close to vertical from here.

$17 a day to climb at Gunks doesn't really seem that bad to me. Especially when it is on private land, and the alternative is to have it closed to climbing all together.


curt


Oct 26, 2011, 10:39 AM
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Lucas79 wrote:
Yeah, but who's talking about climbing gyms here.....brahhh? If I'm going to a climbing gym I'm expecting to pay about that much.....but not a traditional climbing area.

So, you think $17 is better spent at a climbing gym than at the Gunks? What a Gumby.

Curt


curt


Oct 26, 2011, 10:43 AM
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sethg wrote:
I live in NYC, climb in the Gunks and pay the annual fee. And I think if you climb there you should pay it. But I'm not surprised to hear people gripe about the day fee and talk about dodging it. It is a natural reaction, especially from such antiauthoritarian sorts as climbers. I don't know why people get so bent out of shape defending the Preserve. They have a right to charge whatever they want, and people have the right to complain about it. Why is this such a big deal?

That's not a big deal--you're missing the point. No one cares if people complain about the current day-pass fee at the Gunks. What we care about is people actually climbing there and not paying the fee. Cool

Curt


jakedatc


Oct 26, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
I mean, I understand that it's on private land and we're lucky that they let us climb there.....but still. They're charging to much.....no?

You get free bathrooms, camping, ranger service, rescue service, and access to some of the best stone on the east coast.

so you think that climbing plastic holds on cement walls is worth more than that? you should be bitching to them that they are charging as much as an outdoor cliff with all of those amenities for bouldering plastic. THEY are making a profit. Mohonk is not.

fucking gumby is right.


Edit: Also, you need to go to the Spot 35 times to pay for a year pass. vs 5-6 times for the gunks..

"Come on man!"


(This post was edited by jakedatc on Oct 26, 2011, 12:46 PM)


marc801


Oct 26, 2011, 12:52 PM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
I mean, I understand that it's on private land and we're lucky that they let us climb there.....but still. They're charging to much.....no?
No. They should probably charge $50 / day if it will help keep out whiners and complainers with a sense of entitlement.


shockabuku


Oct 26, 2011, 2:03 PM
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Re: [marc801] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
I mean, I understand that it's on private land and we're lucky that they let us climb there.....but still. They're charging to much.....no?
No. They should probably charge $50 / day if it will help keep out whiners and complainers with a sense of entitlement.

I think at $50/day you'd get a greater percentage of people with a sense of entitlement than you do now.

I wonder, like a gym, how much of their cost is rolled up into insurance given that it's a private organization.


jakedatc


Oct 26, 2011, 2:41 PM
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http://mohonkpreserve.org/...alStatements2010.pdf

'10 annual report. i can't figure out the totals and stuff though and where it compares to '09


Lucas79


Oct 26, 2011, 3:33 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner....just stating the obvious.


jakedatc


Oct 26, 2011, 3:54 PM
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Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner....just stating the obvious.

don't go then. we appreciate the parking spot and less people on the wall. at least stop whining.

Go read the PDF i posted. 13% of revenue comes from day passes, 25% from memberships.

put down 3 grand and climb for there for life, plus friends with the guest passes you get.


sp115


Oct 26, 2011, 5:05 PM
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Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner....just stating the obvious.

Happy with the responses so far? Because you got the answer you need: go buy a pass and enjoy. The rest is you ignoring an appropriate analogy and not understanding the difference between a state/federal funded park and a private reserve. But since you have the shovel, feel free to dig yourself in deeper if that's what you want.


shockabuku


Oct 26, 2011, 6:59 PM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Yep, it's kind of expensive - when you want shit someone has to pay for it. In this case taxpayers are out of the loop so you have to pay for what you want as opposed to someone else paying for it for you.

My daughter just got a season pass. Soon she'll be able to out climb you in bouldering, trad, and sport, indoors and out.


shockabuku


Oct 26, 2011, 7:04 PM
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Well, maybe not indoor trad.


petsfed


Oct 26, 2011, 7:14 PM
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A-Bowl wrote:
You're funny man. This thread is one of the reasons I spent over a week up in the adirondacks and a month at the new and one only one day at the gunks. Just tried to stay clear of you guys. We got the sense on the east coast that people were so used to paying for shit they actually sought it out rather than find free/cheap alternatives. Examples being everyone packed into pay camping when there was free national forest camping close by. I Guess you guys need your "services" like extra wide paved trails, paid security guards and sweet smelling toilets. I for one am super stoked your kind huddle together in groups banding together to pay some guys mortgage somewhere.

Good to know who to blame when areas get closed or switch to pay-to-play models to handle the ever-growing numbers of freeloading, self-styled iconoclast "dirtbags" who roll up in new cars.

I don't have a dog in the Gunks fight, but getting pissed off when the people who can afford nicer services actually, you know, PAY for nicer services is kind of silly, especially when I've seen some of my favorite crags in the west come under increasing external control because a thousand trust-funders with dredlocks think they don't have to pay for anything since they're somehow (inexplicably) cut from the same cloth as the Stonemasters. Its a libertarian paradise of free camping out west because there's too much land to manage it strictly, not because climbers (or people in general) have shown that they can be entrusted with anything and not shit all over it.


Lucas79


Oct 26, 2011, 8:08 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Wow....your daughter must be proud to have a father like you. Talking shit to me and taking low blows instead of having a level headed adult conversation. Nice job....you've really outdone yourself.....


(This post was edited by Lucas79 on Oct 26, 2011, 8:08 PM)


Lucas79


Oct 26, 2011, 8:24 PM
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Re: [sp115] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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I understand the differences between state, federal, and privately owned land. In this case the PRIVATE landowners are charging way to much. I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore. We all know that climbing at the Gunks is way more expensive than everywhere else. If I lived in NYC I'd take your advice and buy an annual pass. Living in Boston I doubt I'd get my moneys worth, having the white mountains, the Adirondacks, and trips to indian creek and yosemite planned. I'll probably get to the Gunks 3 or 4 times, pay the daily fees, and continue sobbing about how expensive it is.
Thanks to those of you who gave me some level headed responses though. I purposely haven't attacked anyone or anything. I've simply presented my case like an adult.....as I'd expect other adults to do as well. Cheers


jakedatc


Oct 26, 2011, 9:16 PM
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Lucas79 wrote:
I understand the differences between state, federal, and privately owned land. In this case the PRIVATE landowners are charging way to much. I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore. We all know that climbing at the Gunks is way more expensive than everywhere else. If I lived in NYC I'd take your advice and buy an annual pass. Living in Boston I doubt I'd get my moneys worth, having the white mountains, the Adirondacks, and trips to indian creek and yosemite planned. I'll probably get to the Gunks 3 or 4 times, pay the daily fees, and continue sobbing about how expensive it is.
Thanks to those of you who gave me some level headed responses though. I purposely haven't attacked anyone or anything. I've simply presented my case like an adult.....as I'd expect other adults to do as well. Cheers

I live in RI and go to NH and NY and they are similar distances. Daks are far further than the gunks. just sayin'

what we are trying to say is that the Mohonk preserve uses that money for a ton of things that make paying a bit more worth it. They also use a lot of money to secure areas nearby so they are not built into housing developments.

You don't seem to complain about the areas that people donate money to the access fund to buy? PNRP at the red... Laurel Knob etc.

Btw Rumney costs $3 to park and $8-15 per night per person to camp so it is not that far off. and has less parking, less area maintenance, limited ranger staff, very limited rescue service, etc

Think less of it as just a climbing pass and i think you will feel better about it.

if that doesn't work go climb at quincy quarries and Hammond pond and decide if climbing quality rock is worth more than those choss heaps


jbrown2


Oct 26, 2011, 9:21 PM
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A point that hasnt been made yet is that the Gunks is located next to one of the most populated places in the country. If the gunks was open to the public, for free, it would not only be over run my climbers it would be mobbed by kids looking to drink behind boulders, families taking the dog for a walk, young adults looking for a place to make out etc. The preserve is a beautiful place and people want to be there. 17 dollar fee keeps people aweay. that is a big purpose. it preserves, somewhat, the atmosphear for poeple who can and want to spent the money. I bet there is a scholership program if you cant afford it.


Gmburns2000


Oct 27, 2011, 7:41 AM
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Lucas79 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? T

No, I think $17 per person per day is too much, but the place is overrun on the weekends, so it's probably appropriate for the demand. The annual pass, however, is more than worth it.

Buy the annual pass. You'll find that many Boston climbers climb in the 'Gunks on a frequent basis. Six days in the 'Gunks is a perfectly reasonable number of days to climb there, even with the Whites, Rumney, and Cannon.

As Jake said, the 'Daks are a lot further from Boston than the 'Gunks are.


koonuy


Oct 27, 2011, 8:59 AM
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I just went to the gunks for the first time this year near the end of the season. And though $17 seems like alot (compared to week long JTree car pass i got) i didnt mind paying it for a days worth of hanging out with some friends and getting some amazing climb on. Next year i'll definitely get the pass, also people... if 17 is too much, just go a little further down the road to peterskill where there's tons of bouldering and fun single pitch routes, its only $7 per person.

I mean come on, you come to new york and pay 6 for a bud or 11 for a cocktail, yeah it sucks, but you didnt come here for bargains. You came for the experience, and frankly $17 for a day of awesome experience is well worth it, go more than 6 times, get the annual pass and then its free everytime after. Considering how much it costs to go up to the ESB and waiting in dismal lines, i'd take the day at the Gunks any day.

And if you're visiting, you paid for plane tickets, gas money, lodging, or whatever it costs for a visit, and now you complain about $17 for some beautiful rock? Why dont you go watch a movie, oh right, because its $12 a ticket.

$17 can go a long ways at the gunks, try that in the city you chose to visit, move to, or make a stop in.

Brainwashed? maybe. But im in love with gunks quartzite (NOT GRANITE as originally posted), and my hometown.

(This post was edited by koonuy on Oct 27, 2011, 10:42 AM)


johnwesely


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koonuy wrote:
Brainwashed? maybe. But im in love with gunks granite, and my hometown.

Crazy


curt


Oct 27, 2011, 9:37 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
koonuy wrote:
Brainwashed? maybe. But im in love with gunks granite, and my hometown.

Crazy

+1

Curt


curt


Oct 27, 2011, 9:38 AM
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Re: [Lucas79] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner...

Then why are you whining?

Curt


johnwesely


Oct 27, 2011, 9:40 AM
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Re: [curt] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner...

Then why are you whining?

Curt

Never heard of cognitive dissonance?


sp115


Oct 27, 2011, 10:11 AM
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Re: [curt] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner...

Then why are you whining?

Curt

He probably just saw this:
http://www.numbeo.com/...p;city2=Boston%2C+MA


shockabuku


Oct 27, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Re: [koonuy] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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koonuy wrote:
Brainwashed? maybe. But im in love with gunks granite, and my hometown.

The Gunks rock is not granite.


koonuy


Oct 27, 2011, 10:41 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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My bad, quartzite.

though gunks granite does sound so much better.

Anyways. Point still holds true!

Post edited


curt


Oct 27, 2011, 10:42 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
koonuy wrote:
Brainwashed? maybe. But im in love with gunks granite, and my hometown.

The Gunks rock is not granite.

moral of this thread:

Do not take the Gunks for granite. Cool

Curt


koonuy


Oct 27, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Re: [curt] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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I see what you did there.

Well played.


Partner cracklover


Oct 27, 2011, 2:11 PM
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Re: [sp115] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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sp115 wrote:
curt wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner...

Then why are you whining?

Curt

He probably just saw this:
http://www.numbeo.com/...p;city2=Boston%2C+MA

Holy crap, Boston higher than both New York and SF!!!!??? Can that be right?

GO


mheyman


Oct 27, 2011, 2:43 PM
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Re: [A-Bowl] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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There have been plenty of well stated arguments here as to why it is well worth a climbers $17 fee to climb at the Mohonk Preserve. Iíd simply want to add stress to the fact if these climbers thought a day pass at a gym more worthwhile, theyíd be there instead.

Personally I often get my yearly memberships worth of climbing almost any nice day I climb there, and I consider $90/yr a bargain! Thatís why I have a keep my membership since many years I actually donít climb there at least 6 days.

Those trespassers who arenít paying should be thank the others like me who are. We are the people making it possible for you to climb at the Mohonk Preserve.

It has been stated here that the Mohonk Preserve was the most expensive place to climb in the US! I suggest they try climbing on Palisades Interstate Parkway land in daylight! Though some of its cliffs are much closer to NYC I am sure they will find it less friendly less convenient and and ultimately far more expensive too!


Gmburns2000


Oct 27, 2011, 7:41 PM
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cracklover wrote:
sp115 wrote:
curt wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
First, I'm not comparing climbing at the gunks to climbing gyms....someone else made that silly comparison and I was simply replying to him. Second, I don't feel like I'm being entitled at all. I'm all for paying to upkeep the natural areas that we use......I'm just saying that they are charging way to much. Am I the only one who thinks that $17 per day per climber is to much? The bottom line is that this is the most expensive place to climb in the country....probably the continent. I'm not a whiner...

Then why are you whining?

Curt

He probably just saw this:
http://www.numbeo.com/...p;city2=Boston%2C+MA

Holy crap, Boston higher than both New York and SF!!!!??? Can that be right?

GO

Yeah, Boston is arguably the most expensive city to live in cost-of-living-wise. I know, it's weird, but it's true when you factor in income vs. expenses.

And yet, 10 years ago, when I was a budget analyst for the House Ways and Means committee, I was stunned to learn that the only states with a lower total tax rate than "tax"achusetts were all the states without an income tax. Yeah, go figure that one out. Sounds weird, but it was true (might even still be).


Lucas79


Oct 27, 2011, 10:31 PM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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I still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that there aren't any happy hours in Massachusetts.....


Gmburns2000


Oct 28, 2011, 6:08 AM
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Lucas79 wrote:
I still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that there aren't any happy hours in Massachusetts.....

Davis Square: Johnny D's, most weekdays from something like 5pm to 630pm (again, verify). Two-for-one apps (one big enough to make an entree) and good drinks.

The food there is MUCH better than people realize.

I never cared about happy hour, but they're all over the place, particularly where the students are (i.e. - Harvard / Porter / Davis Square and in the Fens).


blueeyedclimber


Oct 28, 2011, 7:27 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
I still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that there aren't any happy hours in Massachusetts.....

Davis Square: Johnny D's, most weekdays from something like 5pm to 630pm (again, verify). Two-for-one apps (one big enough to make an entree) and good drinks.

The food there is MUCH better than people realize.

I never cared about happy hour, but they're all over the place, particularly where the students are (i.e. - Harvard / Porter / Davis Square and in the Fens).

Grendels, Harvard Square. Half price food, as long as you spend $3 on drinks. 5:00-7:30 & 9-11:30, or something like that.

Josh


blueeyedclimber


Oct 28, 2011, 7:31 AM
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Lucas79 wrote:
I understand the differences between state, federal, and privately owned land. In this case the PRIVATE landowners are charging way to much. I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore. We all know that climbing at the Gunks is way more expensive than everywhere else. If I lived in NYC I'd take your advice and buy an annual pass. Living in Boston I doubt I'd get my moneys worth, having the white mountains, the Adirondacks, and trips to indian creek and yosemite planned. I'll probably get to the Gunks 3 or 4 times, pay the daily fees, and continue sobbing about how expensive it is.
Thanks to those of you who gave me some level headed responses though. I purposely haven't attacked anyone or anything. I've simply presented my case like an adult.....as I'd expect other adults to do as well. Cheers

Also, if you were to purchase the family membership for 2 people, it cost $115.00. That is just under 7 day passes. Split between 2 people, you only need to go 3-4 days to pay for it. A family is defined by same "household."

Josh


shockabuku


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Re: [blueeyedclimber] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Lucas79 wrote:
I understand the differences between state, federal, and privately owned land. In this case the PRIVATE landowners are charging way to much. I'm not going to beat this dead horse anymore. We all know that climbing at the Gunks is way more expensive than everywhere else. If I lived in NYC I'd take your advice and buy an annual pass. Living in Boston I doubt I'd get my moneys worth, having the white mountains, the Adirondacks, and trips to indian creek and yosemite planned. I'll probably get to the Gunks 3 or 4 times, pay the daily fees, and continue sobbing about how expensive it is.
Thanks to those of you who gave me some level headed responses though. I purposely haven't attacked anyone or anything. I've simply presented my case like an adult.....as I'd expect other adults to do as well. Cheers

Also, if you were to purchase the family membership for 2 people, it cost $115.00. That is just under 7 day passes. Split between 2 people, you only need to go 3-4 days to pay for it. A family is defined by same "household."

Josh

Are you looking for a new housemate?


rangerrob


Oct 29, 2011, 10:59 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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Why are you guys trying to convince this Colorado dude that he's wrong? If he thinks he's right he will go away, and we wont have to have people around who have preconveived notions of people and a ridiculous sense of entitlement. I'm happy he thinks it is too expensive to climb in the Gunks. See ya bud. Don't the the Thruway tool booth kick you in the ass on the way out of town!


shockabuku


Oct 29, 2011, 12:03 PM
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rangerrob wrote:
... we wont have to have people around who have preconveived notions of people and a ridiculous sense of entitlement.

And the Gunks will be empty.


marc801


Oct 29, 2011, 12:57 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Why are you guys trying to convince this Colorado dude that he's wrong? If he thinks he's right he will go away, and we wont have to have people around who have preconveived notions of people and a ridiculous sense of entitlement. I'm happy he thinks it is too expensive to climb in the Gunks. See ya bud. Don't the the Thruway tool booth kick you in the ass on the way out of town!

Don't sweat it. This is a guy who likes to complain and feels he's always getting shafted, for example:

Lucas79 wrote:
I still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that there aren't any happy hours in Massachusetts.....

Judging by the immediate rebukes, he doesn't do the basic research that living in a new city entails too well, either.


funnelator


Jan 28, 2012, 10:03 AM
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A few items for context. The Mohonk Preserve exec director makes $140k or so a year, and they have a multi-million dollar visitor center, and a multi-million dollar annual revenue stream.

They are no doubt about preservation. They are also about money. Lots of it.

Just sayin'.


marc801


Jan 28, 2012, 5:13 PM
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Re: [funnelator] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
A few items for context. The Mohonk Preserve exec director makes $140k or so a year, and they have a multi-million dollar visitor center, and a multi-million dollar annual revenue stream.

They are no doubt about preservation. They are also about money. Lots of it.

Seems about right for the typical 501c non-profit. Actually the $140K might be a little on the low side.

[From: http://www.charitywatch.org/hottopics/Top25.html ]

Harold Varmus, M.D., Past President/CEO Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
$2,557,403

John R. Seffrin, CEO American Cancer Society
$2,222,272
Includes $1.5 million in a retention benefit approved in 2001, "to preserve management stability."

Edward J. Benz, Jr., M.D., President/CEO

Dana-Farber Cancer Institute/Jimmy Fund

$1,252,705

Robert J. Mazzuca, Chief Scout Executive Boy Scouts of America - N.O.
$1,211,572

Thomas C. Nelson, Past Ex-Officio/Past COO AARP Foundation & AARP, respectively
$1,176,614
Includes a separation payment of $682,285. The full amount of Thomas Nelson's compensation was paid by AARP, not AARP Foundation.

Edwin J. Feulner, Jr., President Heritage Foundation
$1,098,612

Harry Johns, President/CEO Alzheimer's Association - N.O.
$1,065,524
Includes $392,218 retirement and other deferred compensation.

Ernest Allen, President/CEO National Center for Missing & Exploited Children
$1,057,604
Includes $432,542 retirement and other deferred compensation, of which $338,953 is a catch-up amount for underfunded retirement benefits in previous years.

Gail McGovern, President/CEO American Red Cross
$1,032,022
Includes a one-time reimbursement of $473,570 for relocation costs to work at the national headquarters.

Wayne LaPierre, Executive VP/Ex-Officio National Rifle Association & Foundation, respectively
$970,588

Christopher DeMuth, Past President American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
$939,059
Includes $528,972 in supplemental executive retirement plan payments.

Steven E. Sanderson, President/CEO Wildlife Conservation Society
$927,534

Michael L. Lomax, President/CEO United Negro College Fund (UNCF/The College Fund)
$877,582
Includes $686,080 in retirement funds for 5 full years of service.

Joseph V. Haggerty, COO
United Way Worldwide
$864,875
Includes $318,578 SERP imputed income.

Jonathan W. Simons, M.D., President/CEO
Prostate Cancer Foundation
$850,188

James E. Williams, Jr., President/CEO Easter Seals
$833,000

Alan J. Lewis, Past President/CEO Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation International
$813,732

Joseph Krajbich, M.D., Orthopaedic Surgeon Shriners Hospitals for Children
$807,917
Includes $401,435 retirement and other deferred compensation.

William E. Evans, Director/CEO St. Jude Children's Research Hospital/ALSAC
$795,538

Robert J. Beall, President/CEO Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
$760,446

Rabbi Marvin Hier, President/CEO Simon Wiesenthal Center
$759,026

Howard Rieger, President/CEO Jewish Federations of North America
$707,454

Shulamith Bahat, Past Associate Executive Director American Jewish Committee
$706,563
Includes $530,798 deferred compensation and retirement payments in respect to 50 weeks salary and accrued vacation.

Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, President
International Fellowship of Christians & Jews
$702,417

Abraham H. Foxman, National Director Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith
$689,398


funnelator


Jan 29, 2012, 6:49 AM
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Re: [marc801] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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There are roughly one million 501c3s in the country. You list the top 25 executive director compensation packages, or the top .0025%, to support your claim that 140k for the exec director of the Mohonk Preserve is somehow typical.

What kind of drugs are you on?

Many land preserves have no visitor center, no staff, no executive director. Access is free and considered part of their egalitarian mission. Donations are entirely voluntary.

Not so the Mohonk Preserve. Access is funneled to a few choke points where rangers stand guard and collect money. To be sure, a season pass for climbing is very economical, but for a family of four passing through, and wanting to stop and maybe go for a walk around undercliff overcliff or just watch people climbing, the cost is ridiculous.


(This post was edited by funnelator on Jan 29, 2012, 7:32 AM)


curt


Jan 29, 2012, 6:53 PM
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funnelator wrote:
Many land preserves have no visitor center, no staff, no executive director. Access is free and considered part of their egalitarian mission. Donations are entirely voluntary...


Many land preserves also do not pick up trash, remove graffitti, maintain roads and trails, conduct climatological research, collect data on populations of native flora/fauna, educate the public on ecological matters, etc...

I guess you get what you pay for.

Curt


funnelator


Jan 30, 2012, 7:20 AM
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Those other more humble land preserves are not overflowing with trash nor are they festooned with graffiti. At the bigger ones research and education are done in collaboration with universities.

One need not have a multi-million dollar budget, multi-million dollar visitor center, and $140K a year executive director to accomplish these things.

The Mohonk Preserve closed off access from the hairpin turn, the overlook, and the pull off just beneath the Uberfall. All so they could funnel visitors to two main access points to be sure to collect every dollar of the mandatory fee. Fees should be voluntary. Many people voluntarily donate a lot of money above and beyond the access fee or annual membership. Why not let everyone voluntarily decide at what level they want to contribute?

Aggressively collecting every dollar possible is indicative of the unfortunate rapacious and mercenary character of the preserve these days.


(This post was edited by funnelator on Jan 30, 2012, 7:21 AM)


sp115


Jan 30, 2012, 8:26 AM
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Funnelator, are the other land trusts you mention similar to the Gunks, in terms of having climbing as a core activity that gets managed and supported?
Btw, I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious and don't know.


funnelator


Jan 30, 2012, 8:53 AM
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Among private land preserves, as far as I know the gunks are unique in that they have so much climbable terrain.

But access to climbing terrain doesn't require a multi-million dollar budget, multi-million dollar visitor center, and $140k executive director. There are many climbing venues on private and public land across the country that don't have any of that.


petsfed


Jan 30, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Yep, and each and every one of them sees maybe a thousandth of the traffic that the Gunks sees. I'm glad you have such a robust faith in humanity that you honestly think voluntary fees would support even a single ranger. If there weren't idiots like you, our nation's teachers would have nothing to do with their time.


funnelator


Jan 30, 2012, 9:32 AM
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Are you saying you wouldn't contribute money to the Preserve if you didn't have to? That's not very nice of you.

Many climbers contribute money far beyond what the Preserve requires them to. It doesn't seem like much of a reach to let everyone voluntarily contribute what they feel is appropriate.


Partner cracklover


Jan 30, 2012, 9:58 AM
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funnelator wrote:
Are you saying you wouldn't contribute money to the Preserve if you didn't have to? That's not very nice of you.

Many climbers contribute money far beyond what the Preserve requires them to. It doesn't seem like much of a reach to let everyone voluntarily contribute what they feel is appropriate.

I know quite a few climbers who (like you I suppose) are vocal about feeling that it is wrong to charge for use of "public" land. They also climb a bunch at the Gunks, and they only pay because they are either shamed by their peers or because it would be a pain in the ass to have to sneak in.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, if they had an optional donation, they wouldn't pay a cent.

GO


funnelator


Jan 30, 2012, 10:14 AM
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GO, I have contributed to the preserve way beyond what is required. I have many personal friends who do the same. That said the preserve just doesn't need the wealthy trappings they have.

And they don't need to charge your average family of two adults and two teens $48 to go for a walk.

The aggressive approach to collecting, having, and spending money changes the character of the place, and not for the better.

As you have called my personal willingness to pay at public areas into question, when I travel nationally and internationally, I pay whatever fee is required and have never complained about doing so.


marc801


Jan 30, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Re: [funnelator] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
GO, I have contributed to the preserve way beyond what is required. I have many personal friends who do the same. That said the preserve just doesn't need the wealthy trappings they have.
Wtih the Visitor Center being the most often used poster child for these trappings of wealth, as you did up thread.

Recall that it was constructed from a special fund drive with donations specifically for the VC. IOW, the paying members of the Preserve *wanted* the VC. BTW, it's all the other users of the Preserve, not climbers, that are the true deep pockets in Preserve donations.


Partner cracklover


Jan 30, 2012, 10:49 AM
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Re: [funnelator] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
GO, I have contributed to the preserve way beyond what is required. I have many personal friends who do the same. That said the preserve just doesn't need the wealthy trappings they have.

And they don't need to charge your average family of two adults and two teens $48 to go for a walk.

The aggressive approach to collecting, having, and spending money changes the character of the place, and not for the better.

As you have called my personal willingness to pay at public areas into question, when I travel nationally and internationally, I pay whatever fee is required and have never complained about doing so.

And what I'm telling you is that if you think most climbers are so generous, you are seriously deluded.

GO


petsfed


Jan 30, 2012, 1:47 PM
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Re: [funnelator] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
Are you saying you wouldn't contribute money to the Preserve if you didn't have to? That's not very nice of you.

Many climbers contribute money far beyond what the Preserve requires them to. It doesn't seem like much of a reach to let everyone voluntarily contribute what they feel is appropriate.

You don't see me reaching for my wallet, do you?

Maybe those excessive contributions allowed the Preserve to expand beyond its means, so, just to keep everything running at the level those excessive contributions instigated, they had to increase access fees.

I can guarantee that if people think they can get in without paying, they will.


curt


Jan 30, 2012, 3:39 PM
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Re: [funnelator] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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funnelator wrote:
GO, I have contributed to the preserve way beyond what is required. I have many personal friends who do the same...

As have I, being a life member.

funnelator wrote:
That said the preserve just doesn't need the wealthy trappings they have...

It would seem that one man's "wealthy trappings" are simply another man's desirable infrastructure.

Curt


(This post was edited by curt on Jan 30, 2012, 3:40 PM)


funnelator


Jan 31, 2012, 5:40 AM
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Re: [cracklover] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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In reply to:
And what I'm telling you is that if you think most climbers are so generous, you are seriously deluded.

In reply to:
I can guarantee that if people think they can get in without paying, they will.

I guess you guys are right. Considering your remarks about climbers not contributing to the Preserve unless forced, and the recent bouts of trespassing, tree cuttting on the preserve to facilitate climbling, recent extensive bolting despite the tradition of not bolting here, etc, there are just too many selfish and disrespectful asshole climbers at the gunks for this to be a chill place any more. It's too bad though.


(This post was edited by funnelator on Jan 31, 2012, 5:41 AM)


marc801


Jan 31, 2012, 7:01 AM
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funnelator wrote:
In reply to:
And what I'm telling you is that if you think most climbers are so generous, you are seriously deluded.

In reply to:
I can guarantee that if people think they can get in without paying, they will.

I guess you guys are right. Considering your remarks about climbers not contributing to the Preserve unless forced, and the recent bouts of trespassing, tree cuttting on the preserve to facilitate climbling, recent extensive bolting despite the tradition of not bolting here, etc, there are just too many selfish and disrespectful asshole climbers at the gunks for this to be a chill place any more. It's too bad though.
What "recent extensive bolting"?


rangerrob


Feb 1, 2012, 6:18 AM
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Funnelator, if you think the Preserve is aggressive and forceful about stripping every last dollar from visitors you have obviously not spent much time at all in the Gunks. I would say, on average, a person or persons could arrive at an access point and see no one collecting money.....about 40% of the days out of the year. That's only one example of how not aggressive they actually are.

Your concerns about inequitable distribution of the Preserves money however, I share with you. On land staff that actually does most of the work has historically been treated been treated very poorly in my opinion.


stoopid


Mar 28, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: [rangerrob] a few "gunks" questions [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Funnelator, if you think the Preserve is aggressive and forceful about stripping every last dollar from visitors you have obviously not spent much time at all in the Gunks. I would say, on average, a person or persons could arrive at an access point and see no one collecting money.....about 40% of the days out of the year. That's only one example of how not aggressive they actually are.

Your concerns about inequitable distribution of the Preserves money however, I share with you. On land staff that actually does most of the work has historically been treated been treated very poorly in my opinion.

I'm going to have to disgree with the "40%" estimate during months when there isn't snow on the ground. I know the number was a random point made, but they have become increasingly aggressive in the past 4 years I've been going. The past few weeks they've had someone in the main trapps booth and on the bridge. It's their right to have as many people stationed in whatever locations they want, but it does indicate a desire to 'collect'. There's no "free" signs anywhere, so the intent is to generate revenue.

The other issue I have with many who defend the preserve is their insistence that it's NOT about the money, and that the goal of the preserve is to preserve. If that were really the case they'd eliminate all rock climbing, as the impacts the human traffic has on these cliffs (wildlife) is irreparable. The denial of the primary motivation to make money makes people with brains look at the preserve as a whole as being a little cockeyed. There's a lot of salaries, tourist revenue, and reputations at stake to keep the illusion that the preserve is about Nature, when indeed it's almost entirely about human's generating a profit/paycheck/etc.

The other common counter argument by pro-preservists is that the State (of NY) couldn't do a 'better job' managing these lands, when in fact they manage millions of times more acres of more sensitive and pristine wilderness across the state quite well (not prefectly, but as well or better than the Mohonk preserve). In the highest traffic zones under the DEC's jurisdiction things are managed fine without the need for excessive (or any) fees or sentries at every trailhead. In splitting my time between the Gunks and ADKs, I generally like my ADK experience more. And it usually doesn't cost me anything extra to step outside of my car. So to say the DEC can't manage the lands owned by the Mohonk Preserve is entirely false IMHO. But that's the level of desperate thinking defenders of the preserve go to. They'll sell their own out to keep the image of the preserve from being sullied. The tax payers are already paying for the infrastructure to manage lands like the Mohonk preserve, and with any fees they could/might impliment they could easily turn a small profit for the area. Heck, they might even setup a State campground for climbers to use. I'm not even sure why that other New Jersey group is even involved, when we have everything needed already within the DEC.


(This post was edited by stoopid on Mar 28, 2012, 10:58 AM)


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