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herites


Jul 6, 2011, 4:06 AM
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Bowline or figure eight?
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Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.

Question two: I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)


scottek67


Jul 6, 2011, 4:12 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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this should be a poll. 8 all the way.


swaghole


Jul 6, 2011, 4:40 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Only figure 8 for me. It's safer and one less thing to worry about.


scrapedape


Jul 6, 2011, 5:01 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I use both, but mostly a double bowline, with a stopper inside the loop.


socalclimber


Jul 6, 2011, 5:41 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.

Question two: I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)

Stick with the figure 8. Bowlines are just fine for anchoring around trees and BFR's (Big Fucking Rocks). Lot's of accidents that were preventable have happened over the years due to improperly tied bowlines. Use the right knot for the job at hand. There is a reason climbers largely stopped using the bowline and started using the figure 8.

Bowlines are great knots, just for other uses.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 6, 2011, 5:42 AM)


sp115


Jul 6, 2011, 5:49 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Re-threaded bowline (NOT a regular bowline) solves the concern about safety (prematurely untieing) and cinching up when weighted.


billl7


Jul 6, 2011, 6:05 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I believe I would have stuck with a bowline tie-in, a rethreaded version, if it weren't for two things:

i) my gym requires a figure 8 tie-in;

ii) with new folks, the figure 8 is so much easier for them to recognize.

Bill L


mikebarter387


Jul 6, 2011, 6:56 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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http://youtu.be/dCEM4BGU0YU


edge


Jul 6, 2011, 7:04 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Personally I use a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, but when teaching I advocate a traditional figure 8 follow through with a double fishermans back-up knot, mainly because of the ease of checking the knot visually.


lena_chita
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Jul 6, 2011, 7:16 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Figure 8 most of the time, out of habbit.

I tie in with double bow-line (re-threaded back through tie-in points, and finished with a stopper knot above the bowline) only when I consciously think: "O.K., I will be taking several biggish falls, the 8 knot would be a pain to untie."

Obviously it is a good pracice to know how to tie both knots, and their variations. Some of my partners always tie in with bowline. Unless I don't know how to tie the knot myself, I will not be able to visually check their knot -- one layer of safety check lost.


Sheldon


Jul 6, 2011, 7:22 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Double bowline with a stopper knot on the loop for anything single pitch. I work the loops out and give it lots of tugs too, there is no slop in it.

I use the fig 8 on multipitch routes where I might not be weighting the rope frequently or at all. I also use it if the rope is stiff, a new Edleweiss Performance comes to mind.

I think if I had to choose, I'd choose the 8. Since I don't, I bet 80% of my tying in is with the bowline.


Partner cracklover


Jul 6, 2011, 8:02 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Which is your preferred method for tying in?
Bowline for leading single pitch, fig 8 for multi-pitch or following single pitch.

Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.
Double bowline with a double fisherman's outside the knot, tail pointing down into harness.

I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)

A properly tied bowline with a backup is perfectly safe, and is my tie-in of choice if I might take a lead fall. However, since it can work itself loose in time more easily than the fig-8, I prefer the ease of not having to keep checking it on a long multipitch, and stick to the fig-8 for those.

GO


rnevius


Jul 6, 2011, 8:03 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Figure 8 every time. I never really understood the complaints about it being difficult to untie after projecting...sure it cinches down tight, but I've never had it take a considerable amount of time to untie.


granite_grrl


Jul 6, 2011, 9:00 AM
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Re: [rnevius] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I use a double bowline with a double fisherman's above. It takes some training, but it's not bad to visually inspect yourself and tell that there's something wrong. With the double check procedure it may be darn near impossible for your partner to tell if it's right, but I always take a good look at it myself when we do our checks and verify that things are good myself.

It's not a knot I'd advocate for everyone. It's great if you're falling a lot, and I feel it's more compact of a knot if you're working a route, but I don't even use it all the time myself. When I'm ice climbing I use a figure8, I just have too many layers on and don't have as clear a view of my own knot.


healyje


Jul 6, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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A bowline is no less safe than an eight if you are competent.

In reply to:
There is a reason climbers largely stopped using the bowline and started using the figure 8.

Yes, there is - gyms. It's easier to verify so that's what gets taught. But if you climb steep and roofs an eight is a ridiculous knot to use.


bearbreeder


Jul 6, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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new climbers imo should only use the 8

what they use later is up to them

as to steep and overhanging walls ... this gumbay with the funny name uses an 8 on a 5.15a

shwarma or some other kind of fallafel i think Wink




jt512


Jul 6, 2011, 11:24 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off?

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.



Jay


healyje


Jul 6, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Double bowline with a Czech finish 100% of the time.




JimTitt


Jul 6, 2011, 12:19 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Re-threaded bowline (called the one-and-a- half bowline in Germany). I´m fatter than Sharma, my fingers are weaker, I get pumped to shit and I haven´t got a company rep. to undo my knot for me.


Partner rgold


Jul 6, 2011, 12:34 PM
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Re: [healyje] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I use a double bowline with so-called Yosemite finish (around long before the Yosemite climbers somehow managed to appropriate the name) and a double-overhand backup, for everything from small crags to big walls and alpine climbing, except for the gym, where I use a single bowline with the aforementioned backups.

For 54 years now.

Pay attention to what you are doing and you don't need a partner to check it. I understand guides and gyms wanting and/or needing to check knots, but climbers who are on their own should be able to tie in fer chrissake.

All that said, there is only one way to improperly tie a bowline and not have it instantly fall apart in your hands, and this form is very easy to recognize because the load strand is coming out of the wrong place. So I would question the claim that the bowline is any harder to check than a figure-8.

I think any problems with a bowline have come from tying the knot without any of the various backups, in which case it is subject to loosening. If we could somehow change the terminology so that what are now called the back-ups were actually part of the knot, there would be no question about the renamed bowline's security.

How badly a figure-8 seizes up after loading depends on the duration and severity of the load and also on the particular rope. I've seen a single moderate fall tighten a figure-8 so badly that tools were needed to undo it, and I've seen countless less severe but still exasperating struggles. Obviously, YMMV.


sungam


Jul 6, 2011, 12:42 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I'd just like to take this chance to say

HEY ED! I'm still waiting for the lowdown on the Trident Loop!


sp115


Jul 6, 2011, 1:28 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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BTW, didn't we just do this a few months ago?

http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


(This post was edited by sp115 on Jul 6, 2011, 1:28 PM)


ACLSRN


Jul 14, 2011, 3:59 PM
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Re: [sp115] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Fig 8 all the time, every time.


stoneguy


Jul 18, 2011, 5:58 PM
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I wouldn't argue with the pro's, but knowing a Bowline can be a lifesaver.(for other stuff) I can tie one in three seconds and untie it in five. If you need to save someone, or get down fast, it's good to have. Also has a handy loop, making it easier to grab or put your arms in like a sling.


superchuffer


Jul 18, 2011, 7:55 PM
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granny knot, because jesus loves me


climbingtrash


Jul 23, 2011, 7:04 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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wo0! Er, um, I meant, backed up with a fishermans.


climbingtrash


Jul 23, 2011, 8:00 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU


tH1e-swiN1e


Aug 1, 2011, 8:58 AM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Id say tie whatever youre comfortable with. I used a figure 8 for years and still do on occasion but because I know how, I use a double bowline every time. Id rather not wrestle my knot for 10 minutes after taking a huge whipper.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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climbingtrash wrote:
How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU

A stupid method with extra steps (the slip knot) and a sequence that puts a half-twist in the climbing rope (something that probably doesn't matter, but why do it if you don't have to).

But the worst feature is that this is a bowline without any kind of backup (I suggested earlier that climbers change conventional terminology so that "bowline" always meant a backed-up version.) The un-backed-up bowline is a dangerous knot that can and has loosened and untied, and even if snug can collapse if ring-loaded. On the other hand, a single or double bowline with the "Yosemite" finish and a double overhand is totally secure.


ladyscarlett


Aug 1, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [edge] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
Personally I use a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, but when teaching I advocate a traditional figure 8 follow through with a double fishermans back-up knot, mainly because of the ease of checking the knot visually.

Me TOO! Does this mean we can have a clubhouse?

I use the figure 8 with a Yose finish when leading and I have gotten SO MUCH grief about it - specifically from people who don't recognize it. Go figure.

But hell...I'm the leader and it looks and feels so very good. I just can't stop...

based on what I've seen here, guess it's time for me to polish my bowline skillz...

2p

LS


Partner j_ung


Aug 1, 2011, 2:41 PM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
climbingtrash wrote:
How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU

A stupid method with extra steps (the slip knot) and a sequence that puts a half-twist in the climbing rope (something that probably doesn't matter, but why do it if you don't have to).

But the worst feature is that this is a bowline without any kind of backup (I suggested earlier that climbers change conventional terminology so that "bowline" always meant a backed-up version.) The un-backed-up bowline is a dangerous knot that can and has loosened and untied, and even if snug can collapse if ring-loaded. On the other hand, a single or double bowline with the "Yosemite" finish and a double overhand is totally secure.

I find that method to be easier and faster, and you have to put a half twist in no matter how you tie the bowline. I absolutely agree with you on all the rest, though. Climbing with an unbacked bowline = insanity.


kaizen


Aug 1, 2011, 3:27 PM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
All that said, there is only one way to improperly tie a bowline and not have it instantly fall apart in your hands, and this form is very easy to recognize because the load strand is coming out of the wrong place. So I would question the claim that the bowline is any harder to check than a figure-8.

I think any problems with a bowline have come from tying the knot without any of the various backups, in which case it is subject to loosening. If we could somehow change the terminology so that what are now called the back-ups were actually part of the knot, there would be no question about the renamed bowline's security.

In June, a woman fell while climbing at Creature Wall in the 'daks when her bowline came untied mid-climb. I could not find the print article online where it mentions she was tied in with a bowline, but here is a reference to the accident anyway.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/...etail/id/525217.html

I don't know/recall all of the details, including the presence of a backup knot. Your idea of incorporating a back-up knot as part of the overall solution seems very logical however, and may have prevented an accident here. However, I would disagree with you when you say it's as easy to visually inspect as an 8, even though I use a bowline variation for ice climbing (weird, I know).

I'm also surprised that many agree with this, or at least it seems to me. There are thousands of posts on this site from people supporting simple anchors over "stronger" designs, touting their simplicity and verification as a way of preventing more accidents by following KISS, rather than over-complicating things in a desire to make a stronger anchor. Anchors certainly offer more opportunity to make a mistake, but shouldn't that same principle be applied to tying in as well? It seems to me that a mess-up in an overly complicated anchor would be safer than a mess-up in someone's tie-in knot.

Not disagreeing per se, just posting my thoughts.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 3:32 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
...you have to put a half twist in no matter how you tie the bowline.

True, but you don't have to do it in a way that "installs" that half twist in the rope as illustrated in the referenced video. If you grab the end of the rope and use it to create the half-twist before you thread the harness, then the twist, or the two twists if you are tying a double bowline, will not be "embedded" in the climbing rope and so will not contribute to any future kinking.

I know, this might win a prize for the most arcane and unimportant distinction ever, but I once had a terribly kinky rope, found this actually made a difference when tying double bowlines, and made it into a permanent habit.

As for the slip knot approach to tying the bowline, I was overly dismissive---whatever floats yer boat I guess. I might note that depending which way you thread the end through the slip knot, you will end up with either the classic bowline or the so-called Dutch Navy bowline. There doesn't seem to be any difference, although claims of superiority have been made for each version. I find that the Yosemite finish seems better adapted to the classic bowline, however.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [kaizen] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Kalzen, there is a thread about this accident at http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15840.

The "incorrectly tied" bowline is referred to as a "rumor" reported by one of the rangers. A later post by her father refers to a bowline, but it isn't clear whether he knows from talking to his daughter or whether he is repeating the term used by the rangers.

All that is known is that the knot she was using was not tied when she fell. Whether she had started a figure eight and not finished it, or was using a bowline that wasn't backed up as advocated in that unfortunate video, or had managed the one incorrect way to tie a bowline and then had that untie, we don't know. I don't think even the incorrect way would come undone if it was backed up, though.

As for the idea of using something foolproof rather than a more complicated solution, the point where the line needs to be drawn is in the mind of the beholder. It is possible, for example, to misthread an ATC, but no one is arguing for a return to the more foolproof hip belay.

The bowline has the advantage of being easy to untie after severe and/or prolonged loading. Depending on the rope and the circumstances, a figure-eight can get pretty badly jammed. If the user is going to choose the bowline, they need to know how to tie it, they need to know what the incorrectly tied version looks like, and they have to learn to fight the complacency and inattention that underlies these kinds of accidents for both beginners and experts.

If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, by all means stick with the figure-eight.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 8:18 PM
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I used to use a bowline, and even knew how to tie it with one hand, but the fig-8 for me is easy to tie, too, and easy for my partner to check. I finish with the yosemite finish.

I've taken several big falls on it, too, and have only had a problem untying it as a matter of being too pumped afterward. The only time I've ever had a real problem untying the fig-8 when not pumped was at my gym when the ropes got kind of old. Otherwise, never a problem that I can recall.


kaizen


Aug 2, 2011, 6:51 AM
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rgold wrote:
As for the idea of using something foolproof rather than a more complicated solution, the point where the line needs to be drawn is in the mind of the beholder. It is possible, for example, to misthread an ATC, but no one is arguing for a return to the more foolproof hip belay.

The bowline has the advantage of being easy to untie after severe and/or prolonged loading. Depending on the rope and the circumstances, a figure-eight can get pretty badly jammed. If the user is going to choose the bowline, they need to know how to tie it, they need to know what the incorrectly tied version looks like, and they have to learn to fight the complacency and inattention that underlies these kinds of accidents for both beginners and experts.

If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, by all means stick with the figure-eight.

Well said.


retr2327


Aug 2, 2011, 7:46 AM
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"If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, consider golf."

Fixed.


teo916


Aug 4, 2011, 4:19 PM
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Funny I just learned to tie the double bowline, and I think its always good to learn more knots. The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb. The figure 8 leaves the 'pre-follow-though' figure 8 knot in the rope, which can lead to the knot getting stuck if you're not careful.


jt512


Aug 4, 2011, 5:38 PM
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teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay


teo916


Aug 11, 2011, 2:32 PM
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jt512 wrote:
teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay

Thank you, master of the obvious Tongue

I think his point was that it works just as well, but if someone leaves that 8 in (say someone new to the sport) that it can get stuck. I'm not saying one knot is better than the other, just thought the man had an interesting point concerning the discussion, and wanted to share.


climbingtrash


Aug 11, 2011, 3:17 PM
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teo916 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay

Thank you, master of the obvious Tongue

I think his point was that it works just as well, but if someone leaves that 8 in (say someone new to the sport) that it can get stuck. I'm not saying one knot is better than the other, just thought the man had an interesting point concerning the discussion, and wanted to share.

careful, jay may kilfile you.


rescueman


Aug 13, 2011, 7:01 PM
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The perennial confusion about knots.

Every knot is composed of bights, loops (overhand or underhand), and round turns. A bight is a 180° U-turn of the working end onto the standing part. A loop is a crossing of the working end over or under the standing part (360° turn). And a round turn is a 540° circling of the working end so that it's parallel with and adjacent to the standing part.

A bowline is a bight through an overhand loop and around the standing part. Once you know the language of knots and understand the relationship of components, it's as easy to inspect a bowline as a figure-8 followthrough.



There are three qualities of a knot which determine it's safety:
1) strength
2) stability
3) security

The knot strength is the percentage of unknotted rope strength remaining after including the knot. For a bowline, it's about 65% compared to 75% for a figure-8 on a bight (or followthrough - same knot). Do climbing ropes break in normal use? No. They can cut over an edge. The strength factor is insignificant.

Stability is the ability of a knot to resist capsizing into a slip-apart knot in use. A bowline can capsize if the overhand loop gets snagged on the rock on descent. This is next to impossible with any kind of backup.

Security is the ability of a knot to remain tied in use, including during repeated tension/relaxation cycles. The bowline is a very insecure knot, which is why there is so much prejudice against it. But this liability is precisely what makes it so easy to untie after loading. With any secure backup knot (a double overhand - often mislabeled as a double fisherman's, which is a bend - is much more secure than a single overhand), the bowline is secure enough for almost any application.

A Yosemite finish has the advantage of moving the tail to the outside of the fixed eye and back parallel and adjacent to the standing part, but it is not - in itself - a secure backup.

There is no such thing as an incorrect bowline, but there are many variations - some of which make it more useful for other applications.

There is the Cowboy (or Dutch) bowline, which is just as strong but possibly a bit less secure. There is the double-looped bowline, the water bowline (with clove hitch instead of loop), the jacked (Eskimo or sideways) bowline for ring loading, the running bowline (as a lasso), the bowline-on-a-bight (or two eyed bowline), the bowline-with-a-bight (or three-eyed bowline), the bowline-on-a-coil (original climbing harness), the French or Portuguese bowline (double-eyed, single tied) and the Spanish bowline (two symmetrical eyes - a butterfly bowline).

Every knot is part of an extended family. Getting to know the whole family gives you more versatility and functional options.


(This post was edited by rescueman on Aug 20, 2011, 10:00 PM)


sungam


Aug 14, 2011, 1:40 AM
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Untie-ableness is pretty important as well. Just sayin'.


jt512


Aug 14, 2011, 9:00 AM
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rescueman wrote:
The perennial confusion about knots.

Every knot is composed of bights, loops (overhand or underhand), and round turns. A bight is a 180° U-turn of the working end onto the standing part. A loop is a crossing of the working end over or under the standing part (360° turn). And a round turn is a 540° circling of the working end so that it's parallel with and adjacent to the standing part.

A bowline is a bight through an overhand loop and around the standing part. Once you know the language of knots and understand the relationship of components, it's as easy to inspect a bowline as a figure-8 followthrough.


You're right. Viewed in terms of its components does make it easier to inspect!

Jay


knudenoggin


Apr 20, 2012, 4:37 PM
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rgold wrote:
Kalzen, there is a thread about this accident at http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15840.

The "incorrectly tied" bowline is referred to as a "rumor" reported by one of the rangers. A later post by her father refers to a bowline, but it isn't clear whether he knows from talking to his daughter or whether he is repeating the term used by the rangers.

All that is known is that the knot she was using was not tied when she fell. Whether she had started a figure eight and not finished it, or was using a bowline that wasn't backed up as advocated in that unfortunate video, or had managed the one incorrect way to tie a bowline and then had that untie, we don't know.

It's only a *hint* towards an answer, but the phrase of
the father's (echoing the injured daughter) "... it had worked
up until ..." suggests that >>the<< actual knot had taken
some loading/falls, and subsequently failed. That does
suggest a common/simple bowline --no securing extensions,
no back-up knot. But this is reading into a report ... .

Which brings me back to an earlier post, from Granite_Girl:
do you use only an unadorned bowline?!

In reply to:
I don't think even the incorrect way would come undone if it was backed up, though.

Let's hope not! --lousy back-up, if ...


*kN*


tradmanclimbs


Apr 23, 2012, 10:35 AM
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In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines can loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes change.


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 23, 2012, 11:18 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Apr 23, 2012, 11:04 AM
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jt512 wrote:
herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off?

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

What are the circumstances that cause you to deviate from this? Just wondering why you use it “almost 100%” of the time and not 100% of the time.


jt512


Apr 23, 2012, 11:15 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
jt512 wrote:
herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off?

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

What are the circumstances that cause you to deviate from this? Just wondering why you use it “almost 100%” of the time and not 100% of the time.

There have been a couple of occasions that I've climbed on 20-year-old ropes that were so stiff that the double bowline wasn't secure. Otherwise, gyms that require figure-8s, or tying in to a rope that someone has left the first part of a figure-8 in.

Jay


sp115


Apr 23, 2012, 6:54 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines can loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes change.

Ah yes, the I've-always-done-it-this-way-so-your-way-makes-you-an-idiot argument. Hallmark of the stuborn old fart, in case you were wondering .


Scoobdoo6559


May 2, 2012, 7:10 AM
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Figure 8 always w/a back up knot.


padlinfool


May 3, 2012, 7:23 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

After experimenting with this knot, I find it both brilliant and frightening.

Am I tying/understanding it correctly??

Instead of the standard end to a double bowline, one pushes a bight down through the double loop and then threads the working end back through the captured bight, cinching everything down.

It appears to create a secure loop that releases (after removing the working end tail from the bight loop)
with a tug and a pop....all with unsettling ease.

I have yet to test it on a wall.


tisakson


May 3, 2012, 5:49 PM
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Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...


Greggle


May 3, 2012, 10:59 PM
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tisakson wrote:
Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...

Yawn...


sungam


May 4, 2012, 2:07 AM
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Greggle wrote:
tisakson wrote:
Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...

Yawn...
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 4:02 AM
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Personaly I do NOT want my tie in point to be easy to untie. I want that fucker to stay tied all day without me haveing to check it. If I am on a multi pitch 5+ ice climb dealing with some real fear most of the day wondering if the whole thing is going to fall down with us on it the last thing I need to deal with is digging through a bunch of layers of clothing to find that my tie in knot has loosened up......


sp115


May 4, 2012, 5:22 AM
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I don't think we would get along in the non-Interweb world. You would get tired of me pointing out what an uninformed ass you sound like.


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 5:27 AM
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Yeah, dealling with sarcastic wise asses is not real high on my list of fun ways to spend my day either....


sp115


May 4, 2012, 5:34 AM
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Hmm, then again I could be wrong?


jt512


May 4, 2012, 8:03 AM
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padlinfool wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

After experimenting with this knot, I find it both brilliant and frightening.

Am I tying/understanding it correctly??

Instead of the standard end to a double bowline, one pushes a bight down through the double loop and then threads the working end back through the captured bight, cinching everything down.

It appears to create a secure loop that releases (after removing the working end tail from the bight loop)
with a tug and a pop....all with unsettling ease.

I have yet to test it on a wall.

You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 9:47 AM
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jt512 wrote:
You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay

Jay,

Thanks for your response.

After searching the usual sources for this knot and coming up empty and failing to dissect your image properly, could you elaborate on the method of tying the double bowline with a bowline lock-off?

Marc


jt512


May 4, 2012, 10:41 AM
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padlinfool wrote:
jt512 wrote:
You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay

Jay,

Thanks for your response.

After searching the usual sources for this knot and coming up empty and failing to dissect your image properly, could you elaborate on the method of tying the double bowline with a bowline lock-off?

Marc

Look at the figure below and pretend it's a double bowline. Pass the working end back around the left side of the tie-in loop. That forms a bight around the tie-in loop. Then feed the working end up through the (double) overhand loop, and then down through the bight that you formed in the first step. Tighten well.



If that doesn't make sense, I'll try to post better pictures when I get home next week.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 5, 2012, 12:36 AM)


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 11:19 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Look at the figure below, and pretend it's a double bowline. Pass the working end back around the left side of the tie-in loop. That forms a bight around the tie-in loop. Then feed the working end up through the (double) overhand loop, and then down through the bight that you formed in the first step. Tighten well.

Awesome, that does make sense, very nice and secure.

I was missing the bight wrapping around tie in loop.

Thanks....now I can try it for real!


amarius


May 4, 2012, 11:40 AM
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I think this is the knot in question


notapplicable


May 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
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WARNING: This post may contain ball cupping

As much shit as people talk, myself included sometimes, this site is actually useful on occasion. I've been climbing for 7-8 years and posting here for 6 and I'm still learning new shit all the time. This is one of them.

I've seen a bunch of bowline finishes over the years and have not liked any of them, so I too was curious about this knot. I've climbed on it a few times now and it is indeed rather brilliant in how simple, secure and well integrated it is. All the various strands of the double bowline are cinched down in to a compact little knot. No random, clunky backups shooting out of one side or the other.

If anyone is having a hard time picturing it, and to save Jay the trouble later, here are two pictures I exchanged with him via PM the other day to make sure I was tying it correctly.






(This post was edited by notapplicable on May 4, 2012, 11:57 AM)


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 12:08 PM
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amarius wrote:
I think this is the knot in question

The video is the Double Bowline, but with a different ending/lock-off. It looks similar to healyje's version

jt512's with a bowline lock-off
vs

Healyje's with Czech finish

notapplicable's recent pics of the Double Bowline with a Bowline Lock-Off are also an appreciated addition.


(This post was edited by padlinfool on May 4, 2012, 5:33 PM)


shockabuku


May 4, 2012, 3:50 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Yeah, dealling with sarcastic wise asses is not real high on my list of fun ways to spend my day either....

Really, 'cause those are mostly my favorite people.

I think that's why I come here.


(This post was edited by shockabuku on May 4, 2012, 3:50 PM)


tisakson


May 4, 2012, 4:22 PM
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sungam wrote:
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".

The bowline tied correctly will not come untied during climbing a rock, unless God really doesn't like you. If I have two safe knot choices, I'm gonna tie the one that is easy to untie and faster to tie. It's that simple. The bowline will not just unravel and send you to your death. How is that even possible? Show a video example of how it can come undone...go ahead. Wow, we can get argumentative over a silly know eh?


sungam


May 4, 2012, 4:37 PM
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tisakson wrote:
sungam wrote:
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".

The bowline tied correctly will not come untied during climbing a rock, unless God really doesn't like you. If I have two safe knot choices, I'm gonna tie the one that is easy to untie and faster to tie. It's that simple. The bowline will not just unravel and send you to your death. How is that even possible? Show a video example of how it can come undone...go ahead. Wow, we can get argumentative over a silly know eh?
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.


tisakson


May 4, 2012, 4:47 PM
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sungam wrote:
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.

And the bowline is difficult to double check? How so? Take a quick look and climb..


sungam


May 4, 2012, 4:55 PM
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tisakson wrote:
sungam wrote:
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.

And the bowline is difficult to double check? How so? Take a quick look and climb..
Personally I find the fig 8 easier to check, and more of my friends can better check the 8 then the bowline.


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Unweighted bowlines can and do unravel. Especialy when they are wiggeled a lot and not weighted over a long period of time. Not an issue sport climbing as you only climb for a few min before you weight the rope. Trad climbing or ice climbing for an entire day without weighting the rope is a different story entirely. I do understand that some of these bowlines are finished differently and perhaps they do hold up much better than a standard bowline. I have seen a few loosen up BINTD and never got comfortable with them as a tie in. Fig 8 on the otherhand I have not had any real issues getting it untied so why change? Like I said up thread, I want my tie in to be hard to untie. I do Not want it to be easy. Once it is tied I do not want to have to worry about it becomeing untied. That is the reason we use lockers for master clip in points. We want them to stay closed. Lockers are a PAINTA to open but that is the whole point of them.. If ease of opening was the primary concern we would use bent gate's insted of lockers for our master point. YMMV


linejudge


May 9, 2012, 11:24 AM
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F8, with a fish backup.

However, it seems I should not be handling ropes or knots. Thats a real bummer, because I had some of the best times of my life climbing.


sherpa79


May 9, 2012, 2:25 PM
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I do something similar to Jay's bowline, except I don't use a double bowline and I wrap around the other "leg" of the bowline loop. I find it cleaner. i.e., tie in with a bowline, bring the tail around the part of the loop directly under the bowline and then back up through the top bight. Then back down through both of the turns in the bowline. You end up with what looks like a double bowline, but with the tail finished securely and pointed back down. Only slightly less bulky and imo easier to identify as what it is.


knudenoggin


May 9, 2012, 8:13 PM
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sherpa79 wrote:
I do something similar to Jay's bowline ...

... which was pub'd in Rock&Ice (IIRC) by Dave Pegg as the "Double Bowline with Bowline Back-up" --catchy name if there ever was one! Wink

In reply to:
except I don't use a double bowline and I wrap around the other "leg" of the bowline loop. I find it cleaner. i.e., tie in with a bowline, bring the tail around the part of the loop directly under the bowline and then back up through the top bight. Then back down through both of the turns in the bowline. You end up with what looks like a double bowline, but with the tail finished securely and pointed back down. Only slightly less bulky and imo easier to identify as what it is.

Hmmm, I almost follow this. The (common/basic/venerable) bowline is a marriage of a "bight" and a "loop" --the latter formed in the main line and cinching around the legs of the bight, which in turn keeps the helix qua loop (it wants to open ...).

Sounds as though you've done a Yosemite bowline except that with the tail brought back through the central loop (and I suppose that other "turn" --you speak of plurality-- is the one just formed by the tail's tucking?) and forming an overhand knot (around some parts) vs. the YoBowl's Fig.8. Well, this, too, should give the tail a challenge at coming out. (And there are various other similar ways to play with such an extra tucking, with some interesting results!)

Thanks,
*kN*


mike-f


May 16, 2012, 9:19 AM
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Ever had déjà vu? :) Try this: www.trailspace.com/forums/climbing/topics/25044.html - that was nearly ten years ago!

I'm not fussed which knot is used as long as it’s tied correctly. Knot strength is not an issue: if it was we'd be needing stronger ropes. In the UK most clubs will accept a bowline with a stopper (double overhand) tied into the loop, but a simple bowline is not a good climbing knot. It 'capsizes' far too easily and becomes a slip knot. A more important discussion might be 'Do we need a stopper knot?'

My instructor friends always say 'leave enough end to tie a stopper - then you don't need one'. I would argue 'always tie a stopper'. It is a back-up, 'belt and braces', if the tie-in knot is mis-tied it may save your life, but the main reason is that if a novice sees you doing it they will do it - and it certainly might save their life.

Rock climbing on a nice day is very different from mountaineering, possibly freezing cold, numb fingers, and taking a fall on a wet rope with light fading. Time can be critical to survival. The last thing you want is an iced up figure eight you can't undo. If you want to read some seriously well thought out advice on the topic, I'd recommend 'The Mountaineering Handbook' by Craig Connally. It's a great book to dip into, especially when it's raining and the climbing's cancelled! :).

My preference is usually a yosemite bowline with a stopper. It's easy to tie, easy to untie, easy to inspect and it's protected: you can even tie it quickly one-handed. However, I sometimes climb with an Australian who always uses a re-threaded bowline plus stopper. That ends up like a bowline on a bight, a bit like re-threading a figure eight but with two loops through the harness (some say that two loops reduces wear and strain on the harness). It won't capsize but it does use more rope and that has been an issue more than once!

It's bad form to clip in to the belayer's loop, but in an emergency it's better than dying! This will 'ringload' the knot and a figure eight may fail, they should never be ringloaded (not a problem for the modified bowline). Finally, which way do you thread your harness? It's something that's rarely mentioned, but good practice suggests 'ALWAYS thread from the top'. When you're tired it's easy to make mistakes, if you're stressed as well you can do things you just don't believe you did. It's surprisingly easy to miss a loop: I've seen people do it, I've done it myself. If you do, it's far safer to be hanging from the waistband than upside down from the leg loops....


(This post was edited by mike-f on May 16, 2012, 9:42 AM)


Amorino


May 17, 2012, 9:40 AM
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In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk


shockabuku


May 17, 2012, 3:04 PM
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


LostinMaine


May 17, 2012, 5:15 PM
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

My bold.

in your wisdom of knotcraft, surely you are aware that a stopper behind a figure 8 is superfluous.


JimTitt


May 17, 2012, 9:25 PM
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You mean he made it to his seventies using a bowline before he screwed up his tie-in? Sounds like it´s a good knot after all!


Amorino


May 22, 2012, 1:36 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.


JimTitt


May 22, 2012, 4:52 AM
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Amorino wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.

What climbing walls do has little or no connection with real climbing, they make simplistic rules to cope with the skill level of the staff not the climbers.


mike-f


May 22, 2012, 5:14 AM
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A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily. There are a number of bowline derived arrangements however, which are suitable.

It is unusual for a UK club or centre to be prescriptive in this respect. There may well be some, but here are the listed requirements of a number from their websites:

The Castle Climbing Centre (London):
Adults with climbing experience may register to climb unsupervised at The Castle. In order to register you must be able to:
Put on a sit harness correctly.
Attach a rope to the harness using either a rethreaded figure of eight or a bowline knot.
Use a belay device to secure a falling climber.

Redpoint Birmingham:
WHEN CLIMBING
• The tall walls are designed to be climbed using a rope for
protection. Solo climbing is not acceptable on these walls.
Always use a rope to protect yourself on these climbs.
• Always use a safety harness to attach yourself to the rope.
• Always tie the rope directly into the harness using a suitable
climbing knot. Clipping in with a karabiner is not acceptable

The Cragg, Mid Suffolk Leisure Centre:
Sign a form to say you are competent and take responsibility for yourself and anyone climbing with you.

High Sports (Many centres):
Unsupervised climbing:
Before you climb without supervision we expect you to be competent in the use of, a safety harness, a suitable knot to attach a rope to the harness and a belay device to arrest a falling climber using a rope.

The Foundry, Sheffield
Can you put on a climbing harness correctly? .....
Can you attach a rope to your harness using a suitable climbing knot? ....

The Edge (Sheffield)
- be able to put on a sit harness correctly and attach a rope directly using an approved knot
- be able to safely belay a partner using an approved belay device

Even the British Mountaineering Council simply says:
4.2 Belaying
a. Connect self and others to the rope
b. Utilise belay systems at the top of a climbing wall
c. Attach self and others to the belay system and abseil ropes


sungam


May 22, 2012, 5:49 AM
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Amorino wrote:
I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.
Climbing 3 years mostly indoors? That's cool, and I hope you stick with it and move outdoors (the weather is crackin in Scotland right now!) but it's possible you should avoid making broad statements (or really giving any strong advice at all) until you have a bit more experience Wink

P.S. where in the UK are you from?


knudenoggin


May 27, 2012, 9:11 PM
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventys he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.
Are you referring to the tragedy of November 2011, which has garnered
seemingly more speculation than fact --to wit:
http://www.rockandice.com/...ine-blamed-for-death

?
Your "he was told but ..." can be understood in various ways --that
he was at some times told this, but was seen to ignore it; or that
on the tragic climb he was SEEN using a bowline, ... .
I've yet to see any sure evidence that he in fact tied ANYthing,
and as comments on the report indicate, it could be that he got
distracted and tied nothing --as in the famous Lynn Hill accident.

But we can agree that a simple bowline (no back-up, no extension
of knotting) is not so reliably secure-when-slack in some ropes,
including rockclimbing ropes.

*kN*


knudenoggin


May 28, 2012, 8:48 AM
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mike-f wrote:
A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily.
...

We should ask : What do you mean by this, by "slip knot"?!

Strictly speaking (per Ashley's Book of Knots, say), this is
an overhand knot with the tail "slipped" --i.e., finished with
a bight, as is the common shoelace tying. Often, this general
structure is loaded on opposite ends and produces thus a noose
--the overhand sliding ("slipping"?) along the main line of
the noose structure. --so, a matter of which is end/tail of the
same structure.

Perhaps you have something else in mind?
(There are other things.)
We can wonder how much practical effect these
possibilities have, too.


*kN*


majid_sabet


May 28, 2012, 8:57 AM
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herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.

Question two: I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)

bowline is heavily used in mountain rescue operations and if its safe to save climbers then it should be safe to used by climbers


bearbreeder


May 28, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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and why do all these bowline accidents keep on happening ... i dont see that many accidents with a fig 8 .. and in NA anyways its a more common knot, especially for noobs Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on May 28, 2012, 1:22 PM)


mike-f


May 28, 2012, 1:09 PM
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'wonder' no more... Cool
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climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 1:30 PM
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mike-f wrote:
Ever had déjà vu? :) Try this: www.trailspace.com/forums/climbing/topics/25044.html - that was nearly ten years ago!

I'm not fussed which knot is used as long as it’s tied correctly. Knot strength is not an issue: if it was we'd be needing stronger ropes. In the UK most clubs will accept a bowline with a stopper (double overhand) tied into the loop, but a simple bowline is not a good climbing knot. It 'capsizes' far too easily and becomes a slip knot. A more important discussion might be 'Do we need a stopper knot?'

My instructor friends always say 'leave enough end to tie a stopper - then you don't need one'. I would argue 'always tie a stopper'. It is a back-up, 'belt and braces', if the tie-in knot is mis-tied it may save your life, but the main reason is that if a novice sees you doing it they will do it - and it certainly might save their life.

Rock climbing on a nice day is very different from mountaineering, possibly freezing cold, numb fingers, and taking a fall on a wet rope with light fading. Time can be critical to survival. The last thing you want is an iced up figure eight you can't undo. If you want to read some seriously well thought out advice on the topic, I'd recommend 'The Mountaineering Handbook' by Craig Connally. It's a great book to dip into, especially when it's raining and the climbing's cancelled! :).

My preference is usually a yosemite bowline with a stopper. It's easy to tie, easy to untie, easy to inspect and it's protected: you can even tie it quickly one-handed. However, I sometimes climb with an Australian who always uses a re-threaded bowline plus stopper. That ends up like a bowline on a bight, a bit like re-threading a figure eight but with two loops through the harness (some say that two loops reduces wear and strain on the harness). It won't capsize but it does use more rope and that has been an issue more than once!

It's bad form to clip in to the belayer's loop, but in an emergency it's better than dying! This will 'ringload' the knot and a figure eight may fail, they should never be ringloaded (not a problem for the modified bowline). Finally, which way do you thread your harness? It's something that's rarely mentioned, but good practice suggests 'ALWAYS thread from the top'. When you're tired it's easy to make mistakes, if you're stressed as well you can do things you just don't believe you did. It's surprisingly easy to miss a loop: I've seen people do it, I've done it myself. If you do, it's far safer to be hanging from the waistband than upside down from the leg loops....

I'm knot reading that. ^^^^ Unimpressed


climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 1:31 PM
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mike-f wrote:
A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily. There are a number of bowline derived arrangements however, which are suitable.

It is unusual for a UK club or centre to be prescriptive in this respect. There may well be some, but here are the listed requirements of a number from their websites:

The Castle Climbing Centre (London):
Adults with climbing experience may register to climb unsupervised at The Castle. In order to register you must be able to:
Put on a sit harness correctly.
Attach a rope to the harness using either a rethreaded figure of eight or a bowline knot.
Use a belay device to secure a falling climber.

Redpoint Birmingham:
WHEN CLIMBING
• The tall walls are designed to be climbed using a rope for
protection. Solo climbing is not acceptable on these walls.
Always use a rope to protect yourself on these climbs.
• Always use a safety harness to attach yourself to the rope.
• Always tie the rope directly into the harness using a suitable
climbing knot. Clipping in with a karabiner is not acceptable

The Cragg, Mid Suffolk Leisure Centre:
Sign a form to say you are competent and take responsibility for yourself and anyone climbing with you.

High Sports (Many centres):
Unsupervised climbing:
Before you climb without supervision we expect you to be competent in the use of, a safety harness, a suitable knot to attach a rope to the harness and a belay device to arrest a falling climber using a rope.

The Foundry, Sheffield
Can you put on a climbing harness correctly? .....
Can you attach a rope to your harness using a suitable climbing knot? ....

The Edge (Sheffield)
- be able to put on a sit harness correctly and attach a rope directly using an approved knot
- be able to safely belay a partner using an approved belay device

Even the British Mountaineering Council simply says:
4.2 Belaying
a. Connect self and others to the rope
b. Utilise belay systems at the top of a climbing wall
c. Attach self and others to the belay system and abseil ropes

Knot going to read that either.


mike-f


May 28, 2012, 3:40 PM
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"Knot going to read that either."

Magik! Smile (Bet you did tho.... )


majid_sabet


May 28, 2012, 3:55 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
and why do all these bowline accidents keep on happening ... i dont see that many accidents with a fig 8 .. and in NA anyways its a more common knot, especially for noobs Wink


you have accident happening cause people leave short tail and do not use safety knot, however those who use bowline know that nothing untie easier than bowline, even after massive fall or under heavy load.


climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 5:06 PM
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Re: [mike-f] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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mike-f wrote:
"Knot going to read that either."

Magik! Smile (Bet you did tho.... )

wut does teh BET have to do with anything.


bearbreeder


May 28, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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but but but ,,, arent bowlines more the province of more "experienced" people in NA ... or those that want to be seen as such???

so why are "experienced" people dying from bowlines while the the fig 8 rarely has issues even though its used by noobs and gumbies ...


knudenoggin


May 28, 2012, 6:13 PM
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Re: [mike-f] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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mike-f wrote:

'wonder' no more... Cool

Although my actual use of "wonder" came to challenge this presumed
vulnerability of the knot --to wit:
> We can wonder how much practical effect these
> possibilities have, too.

It should take a fair amount of force to capsize a bowline into
this slip-knot/marlinespike_hitch arrangement, and by something
pulling on the tail. Has anyone been able to produce this effect
while climbing? I'm skeptical of that.
(In any case, we advocate for some further security precaution
for the basic bowline.)

Thanks.
(And reversing the order of photos provides a method for tying
the knot.) Wink

*kN*


moedersin


Dec 12, 2012, 3:06 PM
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Re: [knudenoggin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.


jt512


Dec 12, 2012, 4:11 PM
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Re: [moedersin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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moedersin wrote:
John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.

Hard to see how you can blame a knot for its failure to be tied properly, though your use of the passive voice helps.

Jay


Marylandclimber


Dec 12, 2012, 4:53 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Just use a figure eight for almost everything I don't see the debate.


healyje


Dec 12, 2012, 5:27 PM
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Re: [moedersin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.


knudenoggin


Dec 12, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [moedersin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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moedersin wrote:
John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture
because his bowline wasn't tied properly,
I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.

The speed of information seems proportionate to its lightness of facts!

At least, in this present case, I've searched (the Taco, mainly) for some
statement from this surviving, well-initiated rockclimber,
as to what exactly occurred. There was a cryptic statement
put forward allegedly on his behalf that the accident resulted
"from an unfinished knot" --that inexact wording
is feritle for speculation, but for knowledge, not so much.

*kN*

As I posted @ST:
In reply to:
In reply to:
**I guess** "unfinished" could mean 2 things:


But, for crying out loud, WHY ARE WE GUESSING?!

The conveyance of "information" via the Net is so
damn fast when unweighted by care in checking facts ... .

Already, there is another "bowline came untied" article fueling
lines of R&I, no doubt building some preponderance of evidence
after the fatal UK case, about which RGold & I tried to point
out that certain key bits of information --i.p., whether in fact
any actual >>knot<< was tied-- were unknown.

HERE, we have connection to the (thankfully, surviving) user;
how about actual-factual details,
vs. the usual this-appears-to-support-my-agenda spewing?

*kN*


(This post was edited by knudenoggin on Dec 13, 2012, 10:34 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 12, 2012, 5:45 PM
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Re: [healyje] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.


iknowfear


Dec 13, 2012, 2:25 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

could have been a wrong munter, as well, I guess.


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 13, 2012, 11:09 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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If it is in a gym then whatever they require you to use. If it is anywhere else or if the gym allows both then whatever you are most comfortable with.

I am most comfortable with a figure 8 because that is what all of the gyms I have climbed in require and therefore it is also what I am most comfortable with outside.

Both knots are safe when tied correctly. The key is to use the one that you are most likely to tie correctly. Typically that is the one you use most often.


JasonsDrivingForce


Dec 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

What dictates an unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"?

Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed?

I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?


(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Dec 13, 2012, 11:32 AM)


notapplicable


Dec 13, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
healyje wrote:
Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

Possibly more likely to have been. Both times I've encountered unfinished knots IRL, they were figure-8's.

What dictates and unfinished figure 8 knot? I assume it is more than just forgetting what we typically refer to as the "Finishing Knot" or ""Stopper Knot" or a "Yosemite Finish"?

Is a knot considered unfinished only when both loops of the figure 8 are not done or only if the second loop is not completed? Will a figure 8 support a load in some cases if just one of the figure 8 loops is completed?

I am just curious as to what stage of tying the figure 8 people were at when they failed to complete it? Is it just that they never even began the figure 8 or that they completed only a portion of it?

In both case the rope was simply threaded thru the tie-in points and the figure-8 never retraced. I think this is the most common error that is likely to result in injury/death. I doubt many people stop halfway thru the retracing process (I'm sure it's not unheard of though) and a missing backup or finish is not likely to result in knot failure with the figure-8.


bearbreeder


Dec 13, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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if you have a well done figure 8 with a fist full of tail you dont need any backup ...

i wont speak to the bowline because everyone has their own personal favorite variation and finish ... which tends to make partner checks a woozy Wink

use whatever knot you want ... but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people

Tongue


granite_grrl


Dec 13, 2012, 3:45 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
but there does seem to be more boo boos with the bowline even by some very experienced people

Probably because most experienced people tend to use bowlines.


bearbreeder


Dec 13, 2012, 4:05 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
Probably because most experienced people tend to use bowlines.

source?

Wink


healyje


Dec 13, 2012, 4:35 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I suspect most experienced climbers use figure eights unless they climb steep lines or roofs. Using a figure eight in those circumstances can surely be done, but is a lousy use of one's time and energy. So I would suspect most experienced climber screwups with knots would be with figure eights, not bowlines.

Also, not all bowlines are remotely equal - some are more prone to screwing up or not finishing than others. My double bowline with a Czech finish is all but immune to both as it's either it's initially tied or it's just a straight piece of rope through your tie-in points and the fact I go through the tie-in points twice on the way to finishing it adds a kind of built in check of sorts when tying it.



Pretty much the only way to screw it up would be to get slightly more than halfway through with it so it was stable enough to not be a straight piece of rope, then get interrupted to some other task or good-looking distraction, and never return to completing it. Could happen I suppose, but after this many years of lead roped-soling I'm pretty relentless in the self-checking my tie-in.


(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 13, 2012, 4:39 PM)


EdBustamante


Dec 14, 2012, 5:50 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser to untie dose not seem like a good quality .


herites


Dec 14, 2012, 5:58 AM
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Re: [healyje] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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It's been a while since I asked, nowaday I use that knot, with a slightly different finish.



(This post was edited by herites on Dec 14, 2012, 6:15 AM)


marc801


Dec 14, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [EdBustamante] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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EdBustamante wrote:
Figure 8 is all I have ever used a knot that is eiser [sic] to untie dose [sic] not seem like a good quality .
You're misunderstanding the "easier to untie" aspect of the bowline. Specifically, you're neglecting the key clarifying phrase "[easier to untie]...after being weighted in a fall." Both are equally easy to untie if they have not been weighted.


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