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climbingtrash


Jul 23, 2011, 7:04 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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wo0! Er, um, I meant, backed up with a fishermans.


climbingtrash


Jul 23, 2011, 8:00 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU


tH1e-swiN1e


Aug 1, 2011, 8:58 AM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Id say tie whatever youre comfortable with. I used a figure 8 for years and still do on occasion but because I know how, I use a double bowline every time. Id rather not wrestle my knot for 10 minutes after taking a huge whipper.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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climbingtrash wrote:
How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU

A stupid method with extra steps (the slip knot) and a sequence that puts a half-twist in the climbing rope (something that probably doesn't matter, but why do it if you don't have to).

But the worst feature is that this is a bowline without any kind of backup (I suggested earlier that climbers change conventional terminology so that "bowline" always meant a backed-up version.) The un-backed-up bowline is a dangerous knot that can and has loosened and untied, and even if snug can collapse if ring-loaded. On the other hand, a single or double bowline with the "Yosemite" finish and a double overhand is totally secure.


ladyscarlett


Aug 1, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [edge] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
Personally I use a figure 8 with a Yosemite finish, but when teaching I advocate a traditional figure 8 follow through with a double fishermans back-up knot, mainly because of the ease of checking the knot visually.

Me TOO! Does this mean we can have a clubhouse?

I use the figure 8 with a Yose finish when leading and I have gotten SO MUCH grief about it - specifically from people who don't recognize it. Go figure.

But hell...I'm the leader and it looks and feels so very good. I just can't stop...

based on what I've seen here, guess it's time for me to polish my bowline skillz...

2p

LS


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Aug 1, 2011, 2:41 PM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
climbingtrash wrote:
How to tie a bowline...it's as EZ as that!

http://www.youtube.com/...1#p/u/37/P-dSr70_tZU

A stupid method with extra steps (the slip knot) and a sequence that puts a half-twist in the climbing rope (something that probably doesn't matter, but why do it if you don't have to).

But the worst feature is that this is a bowline without any kind of backup (I suggested earlier that climbers change conventional terminology so that "bowline" always meant a backed-up version.) The un-backed-up bowline is a dangerous knot that can and has loosened and untied, and even if snug can collapse if ring-loaded. On the other hand, a single or double bowline with the "Yosemite" finish and a double overhand is totally secure.

I find that method to be easier and faster, and you have to put a half twist in no matter how you tie the bowline. I absolutely agree with you on all the rest, though. Climbing with an unbacked bowline = insanity.


kaizen


Aug 1, 2011, 3:27 PM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
All that said, there is only one way to improperly tie a bowline and not have it instantly fall apart in your hands, and this form is very easy to recognize because the load strand is coming out of the wrong place. So I would question the claim that the bowline is any harder to check than a figure-8.

I think any problems with a bowline have come from tying the knot without any of the various backups, in which case it is subject to loosening. If we could somehow change the terminology so that what are now called the back-ups were actually part of the knot, there would be no question about the renamed bowline's security.

In June, a woman fell while climbing at Creature Wall in the 'daks when her bowline came untied mid-climb. I could not find the print article online where it mentions she was tied in with a bowline, but here is a reference to the accident anyway.

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/...etail/id/525217.html

I don't know/recall all of the details, including the presence of a backup knot. Your idea of incorporating a back-up knot as part of the overall solution seems very logical however, and may have prevented an accident here. However, I would disagree with you when you say it's as easy to visually inspect as an 8, even though I use a bowline variation for ice climbing (weird, I know).

I'm also surprised that many agree with this, or at least it seems to me. There are thousands of posts on this site from people supporting simple anchors over "stronger" designs, touting their simplicity and verification as a way of preventing more accidents by following KISS, rather than over-complicating things in a desire to make a stronger anchor. Anchors certainly offer more opportunity to make a mistake, but shouldn't that same principle be applied to tying in as well? It seems to me that a mess-up in an overly complicated anchor would be safer than a mess-up in someone's tie-in knot.

Not disagreeing per se, just posting my thoughts.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 3:32 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
...you have to put a half twist in no matter how you tie the bowline.

True, but you don't have to do it in a way that "installs" that half twist in the rope as illustrated in the referenced video. If you grab the end of the rope and use it to create the half-twist before you thread the harness, then the twist, or the two twists if you are tying a double bowline, will not be "embedded" in the climbing rope and so will not contribute to any future kinking.

I know, this might win a prize for the most arcane and unimportant distinction ever, but I once had a terribly kinky rope, found this actually made a difference when tying double bowlines, and made it into a permanent habit.

As for the slip knot approach to tying the bowline, I was overly dismissive---whatever floats yer boat I guess. I might note that depending which way you thread the end through the slip knot, you will end up with either the classic bowline or the so-called Dutch Navy bowline. There doesn't seem to be any difference, although claims of superiority have been made for each version. I find that the Yosemite finish seems better adapted to the classic bowline, however.


Partner rgold


Aug 1, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Re: [kaizen] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Kalzen, there is a thread about this accident at http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15840.

The "incorrectly tied" bowline is referred to as a "rumor" reported by one of the rangers. A later post by her father refers to a bowline, but it isn't clear whether he knows from talking to his daughter or whether he is repeating the term used by the rangers.

All that is known is that the knot she was using was not tied when she fell. Whether she had started a figure eight and not finished it, or was using a bowline that wasn't backed up as advocated in that unfortunate video, or had managed the one incorrect way to tie a bowline and then had that untie, we don't know. I don't think even the incorrect way would come undone if it was backed up, though.

As for the idea of using something foolproof rather than a more complicated solution, the point where the line needs to be drawn is in the mind of the beholder. It is possible, for example, to misthread an ATC, but no one is arguing for a return to the more foolproof hip belay.

The bowline has the advantage of being easy to untie after severe and/or prolonged loading. Depending on the rope and the circumstances, a figure-eight can get pretty badly jammed. If the user is going to choose the bowline, they need to know how to tie it, they need to know what the incorrectly tied version looks like, and they have to learn to fight the complacency and inattention that underlies these kinds of accidents for both beginners and experts.

If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, by all means stick with the figure-eight.


Gmburns2000


Aug 1, 2011, 8:18 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I used to use a bowline, and even knew how to tie it with one hand, but the fig-8 for me is easy to tie, too, and easy for my partner to check. I finish with the yosemite finish.

I've taken several big falls on it, too, and have only had a problem untying it as a matter of being too pumped afterward. The only time I've ever had a real problem untying the fig-8 when not pumped was at my gym when the ropes got kind of old. Otherwise, never a problem that I can recall.


kaizen


Aug 2, 2011, 6:51 AM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
As for the idea of using something foolproof rather than a more complicated solution, the point where the line needs to be drawn is in the mind of the beholder. It is possible, for example, to misthread an ATC, but no one is arguing for a return to the more foolproof hip belay.

The bowline has the advantage of being easy to untie after severe and/or prolonged loading. Depending on the rope and the circumstances, a figure-eight can get pretty badly jammed. If the user is going to choose the bowline, they need to know how to tie it, they need to know what the incorrectly tied version looks like, and they have to learn to fight the complacency and inattention that underlies these kinds of accidents for both beginners and experts.

If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, by all means stick with the figure-eight.

Well said.


retr2327


Aug 2, 2011, 7:46 AM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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"If there are any doubts about an individual's ability to do this, consider golf."

Fixed.


teo916


Aug 4, 2011, 4:19 PM
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Re: [retr2327] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Funny I just learned to tie the double bowline, and I think its always good to learn more knots. The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb. The figure 8 leaves the 'pre-follow-though' figure 8 knot in the rope, which can lead to the knot getting stuck if you're not careful.


jt512


Aug 4, 2011, 5:38 PM
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Re: [teo916] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay


teo916


Aug 11, 2011, 2:32 PM
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Re: [jt512] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay

Thank you, master of the obvious Tongue

I think his point was that it works just as well, but if someone leaves that 8 in (say someone new to the sport) that it can get stuck. I'm not saying one knot is better than the other, just thought the man had an interesting point concerning the discussion, and wanted to share.


climbingtrash


Aug 11, 2011, 3:17 PM
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Re: [teo916] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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teo916 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
teo916 wrote:
The one point made to me about the advantage of a bowline, is that after you untie, the knot will no longer be in the rope to get stuck in cracks etc. if you are pulling the rope off after a climb.

Neither will it be if you actually untie your figure-8.

Jay

Thank you, master of the obvious Tongue

I think his point was that it works just as well, but if someone leaves that 8 in (say someone new to the sport) that it can get stuck. I'm not saying one knot is better than the other, just thought the man had an interesting point concerning the discussion, and wanted to share.

careful, jay may kilfile you.


rescueman


Aug 13, 2011, 7:01 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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The perennial confusion about knots.

Every knot is composed of bights, loops (overhand or underhand), and round turns. A bight is a 180° U-turn of the working end onto the standing part. A loop is a crossing of the working end over or under the standing part (360° turn). And a round turn is a 540° circling of the working end so that it's parallel with and adjacent to the standing part.

A bowline is a bight through an overhand loop and around the standing part. Once you know the language of knots and understand the relationship of components, it's as easy to inspect a bowline as a figure-8 followthrough.



There are three qualities of a knot which determine it's safety:
1) strength
2) stability
3) security

The knot strength is the percentage of unknotted rope strength remaining after including the knot. For a bowline, it's about 65% compared to 75% for a figure-8 on a bight (or followthrough - same knot). Do climbing ropes break in normal use? No. They can cut over an edge. The strength factor is insignificant.

Stability is the ability of a knot to resist capsizing into a slip-apart knot in use. A bowline can capsize if the overhand loop gets snagged on the rock on descent. This is next to impossible with any kind of backup.

Security is the ability of a knot to remain tied in use, including during repeated tension/relaxation cycles. The bowline is a very insecure knot, which is why there is so much prejudice against it. But this liability is precisely what makes it so easy to untie after loading. With any secure backup knot (a double overhand - often mislabeled as a double fisherman's, which is a bend - is much more secure than a single overhand), the bowline is secure enough for almost any application.

A Yosemite finish has the advantage of moving the tail to the outside of the fixed eye and back parallel and adjacent to the standing part, but it is not - in itself - a secure backup.

There is no such thing as an incorrect bowline, but there are many variations - some of which make it more useful for other applications.

There is the Cowboy (or Dutch) bowline, which is just as strong but possibly a bit less secure. There is the double-looped bowline, the water bowline (with clove hitch instead of loop), the jacked (Eskimo or sideways) bowline for ring loading, the running bowline (as a lasso), the bowline-on-a-bight (or two eyed bowline), the bowline-with-a-bight (or three-eyed bowline), the bowline-on-a-coil (original climbing harness), the French or Portuguese bowline (double-eyed, single tied) and the Spanish bowline (two symmetrical eyes - a butterfly bowline).

Every knot is part of an extended family. Getting to know the whole family gives you more versatility and functional options.


(This post was edited by rescueman on Aug 20, 2011, 10:00 PM)


sungam


Aug 14, 2011, 1:40 AM
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Re: [rescueman] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Untie-ableness is pretty important as well. Just sayin'.


jt512


Aug 14, 2011, 9:00 AM
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Re: [rescueman] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rescueman wrote:
The perennial confusion about knots.

Every knot is composed of bights, loops (overhand or underhand), and round turns. A bight is a 180° U-turn of the working end onto the standing part. A loop is a crossing of the working end over or under the standing part (360° turn). And a round turn is a 540° circling of the working end so that it's parallel with and adjacent to the standing part.

A bowline is a bight through an overhand loop and around the standing part. Once you know the language of knots and understand the relationship of components, it's as easy to inspect a bowline as a figure-8 followthrough.


You're right. Viewed in terms of its components does make it easier to inspect!

Jay


knudenoggin


Apr 20, 2012, 4:37 PM
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Re: [rgold] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Kalzen, there is a thread about this accident at http://www.adkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15840.

The "incorrectly tied" bowline is referred to as a "rumor" reported by one of the rangers. A later post by her father refers to a bowline, but it isn't clear whether he knows from talking to his daughter or whether he is repeating the term used by the rangers.

All that is known is that the knot she was using was not tied when she fell. Whether she had started a figure eight and not finished it, or was using a bowline that wasn't backed up as advocated in that unfortunate video, or had managed the one incorrect way to tie a bowline and then had that untie, we don't know.

It's only a *hint* towards an answer, but the phrase of
the father's (echoing the injured daughter) "... it had worked
up until ..." suggests that >>the<< actual knot had taken
some loading/falls, and subsequently failed. That does
suggest a common/simple bowline --no securing extensions,
no back-up knot. But this is reading into a report ... .

Which brings me back to an earlier post, from Granite_Girl:
do you use only an unadorned bowline?!

In reply to:
I don't think even the incorrect way would come undone if it was backed up, though.

Let's hope not! --lousy back-up, if ...


*kN*


tradmanclimbs


Apr 23, 2012, 10:35 AM
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Re: [knudenoggin] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines can loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes change.


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 23, 2012, 11:18 AM)


JasonsDrivingForce


Apr 23, 2012, 11:04 AM
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Re: [jt512] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off?

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

What are the circumstances that cause you to deviate from this? Just wondering why you use it “almost 100%” of the time and not 100% of the time.


jt512


Apr 23, 2012, 11:15 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
jt512 wrote:
herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off?

I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

What are the circumstances that cause you to deviate from this? Just wondering why you use it “almost 100%” of the time and not 100% of the time.

There have been a couple of occasions that I've climbed on 20-year-old ropes that were so stiff that the double bowline wasn't secure. Otherwise, gyms that require figure-8s, or tying in to a rope that someone has left the first part of a figure-8 in.

Jay


sp115


Apr 23, 2012, 6:54 PM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
In 30 years of climbing I have never not been able to untie a figuer eight. I have tested and found that you can tie only 2/3 of a figuer eight and it still holds body weight. If you forget to finish a fig 8 you still have a chance. forget to finish a bowline and you are toast! I do use the bowline in many other climbing aplications such as my 6mm chalkbag cord and my 9mm home made adjustable daisy. Bowlines can loosen up, Fig 8's do not. pretty simple stuff.

INMOP anyone still tying in with a bowline in the USA is either trying to be cool or a stuborn old fart who dislikes change.

Ah yes, the I've-always-done-it-this-way-so-your-way-makes-you-an-idiot argument. Hallmark of the stuborn old fart, in case you were wondering .

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