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Bowline or figure eight?
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Scoobdoo6559


May 2, 2012, 7:10 AM
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Re: [superchuffer] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Figure 8 always w/a back up knot.


padlinfool


May 3, 2012, 7:23 AM
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Re: [jt512] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

After experimenting with this knot, I find it both brilliant and frightening.

Am I tying/understanding it correctly??

Instead of the standard end to a double bowline, one pushes a bight down through the double loop and then threads the working end back through the captured bight, cinching everything down.

It appears to create a secure loop that releases (after removing the working end tail from the bight loop)
with a tug and a pop....all with unsettling ease.

I have yet to test it on a wall.


tisakson


May 3, 2012, 5:49 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...


Greggle


May 3, 2012, 10:59 PM
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Re: [tisakson] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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tisakson wrote:
Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...

Yawn...


sungam


May 4, 2012, 2:07 AM
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Re: [Greggle] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Greggle wrote:
tisakson wrote:
Bowline all the way. If you feel the need to only trust a figure 8 because it's easier to check, then you shouldn't be handling knots and ropes at all. The bowline is completely fine if you back it up and tighten it really well. And it's so much easier to untie!! It's a no brainer to me...but so many of my friends refuse to use it...

Yawn...
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 4:02 AM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Personaly I do NOT want my tie in point to be easy to untie. I want that fucker to stay tied all day without me haveing to check it. If I am on a multi pitch 5+ ice climb dealing with some real fear most of the day wondering if the whole thing is going to fall down with us on it the last thing I need to deal with is digging through a bunch of layers of clothing to find that my tie in knot has loosened up......


sp115


May 4, 2012, 5:22 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I don't think we would get along in the non-Interweb world. You would get tired of me pointing out what an uninformed ass you sound like.


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 5:27 AM
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Re: [sp115] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Yeah, dealling with sarcastic wise asses is not real high on my list of fun ways to spend my day either....


sp115


May 4, 2012, 5:34 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Hmm, then again I could be wrong?


jt512


May 4, 2012, 8:03 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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padlinfool wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I use a double bowline with a bowline lock-off almost 100% of the time.

[img]http://jt512.dyndns.org/images/db3.jpg[/img]

Jay

After experimenting with this knot, I find it both brilliant and frightening.

Am I tying/understanding it correctly??

Instead of the standard end to a double bowline, one pushes a bight down through the double loop and then threads the working end back through the captured bight, cinching everything down.

It appears to create a secure loop that releases (after removing the working end tail from the bight loop)
with a tug and a pop....all with unsettling ease.

I have yet to test it on a wall.

You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 9:47 AM
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Re: [jt512] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay

Jay,

Thanks for your response.

After searching the usual sources for this knot and coming up empty and failing to dissect your image properly, could you elaborate on the method of tying the double bowline with a bowline lock-off?

Marc


jt512


May 4, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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padlinfool wrote:
jt512 wrote:
You are definitely not tying it correctly.

Jay

Jay,

Thanks for your response.

After searching the usual sources for this knot and coming up empty and failing to dissect your image properly, could you elaborate on the method of tying the double bowline with a bowline lock-off?

Marc

Look at the figure below and pretend it's a double bowline. Pass the working end back around the left side of the tie-in loop. That forms a bight around the tie-in loop. Then feed the working end up through the (double) overhand loop, and then down through the bight that you formed in the first step. Tighten well.



If that doesn't make sense, I'll try to post better pictures when I get home next week.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 5, 2012, 12:36 AM)


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Re: [jt512] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Look at the figure below, and pretend it's a double bowline. Pass the working end back around the left side of the tie-in loop. That forms a bight around the tie-in loop. Then feed the working end up through the (double) overhand loop, and then down through the bight that you formed in the first step. Tighten well.

Awesome, that does make sense, very nice and secure.

I was missing the bight wrapping around tie in loop.

Thanks....now I can try it for real!


amarius


May 4, 2012, 11:40 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I think this is the knot in question


notapplicable


May 4, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: [padlinfool] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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WARNING: This post may contain ball cupping

As much shit as people talk, myself included sometimes, this site is actually useful on occasion. I've been climbing for 7-8 years and posting here for 6 and I'm still learning new shit all the time. This is one of them.

I've seen a bunch of bowline finishes over the years and have not liked any of them, so I too was curious about this knot. I've climbed on it a few times now and it is indeed rather brilliant in how simple, secure and well integrated it is. All the various strands of the double bowline are cinched down in to a compact little knot. No random, clunky backups shooting out of one side or the other.

If anyone is having a hard time picturing it, and to save Jay the trouble later, here are two pictures I exchanged with him via PM the other day to make sure I was tying it correctly.






(This post was edited by notapplicable on May 4, 2012, 11:57 AM)


padlinfool


May 4, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Re: [amarius] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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amarius wrote:
I think this is the knot in question

The video is the Double Bowline, but with a different ending/lock-off. It looks similar to healyje's version

jt512's with a bowline lock-off
vs

Healyje's with Czech finish

notapplicable's recent pics of the Double Bowline with a Bowline Lock-Off are also an appreciated addition.


(This post was edited by padlinfool on May 4, 2012, 5:33 PM)


shockabuku


May 4, 2012, 3:50 PM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Yeah, dealling with sarcastic wise asses is not real high on my list of fun ways to spend my day either....

Really, 'cause those are mostly my favorite people.

I think that's why I come here.


(This post was edited by shockabuku on May 4, 2012, 3:50 PM)


tisakson


May 4, 2012, 4:22 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".

The bowline tied correctly will not come untied during climbing a rock, unless God really doesn't like you. If I have two safe knot choices, I'm gonna tie the one that is easy to untie and faster to tie. It's that simple. The bowline will not just unravel and send you to your death. How is that even possible? Show a video example of how it can come undone...go ahead. Wow, we can get argumentative over a silly know eh?


sungam


May 4, 2012, 4:37 PM
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Re: [tisakson] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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tisakson wrote:
sungam wrote:
Yep. double checks and buddy checks stop accidents - not "easier to untie".

The bowline tied correctly will not come untied during climbing a rock, unless God really doesn't like you. If I have two safe knot choices, I'm gonna tie the one that is easy to untie and faster to tie. It's that simple. The bowline will not just unravel and send you to your death. How is that even possible? Show a video example of how it can come undone...go ahead. Wow, we can get argumentative over a silly know eh?
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.


tisakson


May 4, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.

And the bowline is difficult to double check? How so? Take a quick look and climb..


sungam


May 4, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Re: [tisakson] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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tisakson wrote:
sungam wrote:
I didn't say anything about unravelling, that would be silly. I was talking about the ease of double checking and buddy checking.

And the bowline is difficult to double check? How so? Take a quick look and climb..
Personally I find the fig 8 easier to check, and more of my friends can better check the 8 then the bowline.


tradmanclimbs


May 4, 2012, 7:50 PM
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Re: [sungam] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Unweighted bowlines can and do unravel. Especialy when they are wiggeled a lot and not weighted over a long period of time. Not an issue sport climbing as you only climb for a few min before you weight the rope. Trad climbing or ice climbing for an entire day without weighting the rope is a different story entirely. I do understand that some of these bowlines are finished differently and perhaps they do hold up much better than a standard bowline. I have seen a few loosen up BINTD and never got comfortable with them as a tie in. Fig 8 on the otherhand I have not had any real issues getting it untied so why change? Like I said up thread, I want my tie in to be hard to untie. I do Not want it to be easy. Once it is tied I do not want to have to worry about it becomeing untied. That is the reason we use lockers for master clip in points. We want them to stay closed. Lockers are a PAINTA to open but that is the whole point of them.. If ease of opening was the primary concern we would use bent gate's insted of lockers for our master point. YMMV


linejudge


May 9, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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F8, with a fish backup.

However, it seems I should not be handling ropes or knots. Thats a real bummer, because I had some of the best times of my life climbing.


sherpa79


May 9, 2012, 2:25 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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I do something similar to Jay's bowline, except I don't use a double bowline and I wrap around the other "leg" of the bowline loop. I find it cleaner. i.e., tie in with a bowline, bring the tail around the part of the loop directly under the bowline and then back up through the top bight. Then back down through both of the turns in the bowline. You end up with what looks like a double bowline, but with the tail finished securely and pointed back down. Only slightly less bulky and imo easier to identify as what it is.


knudenoggin


May 9, 2012, 8:13 PM
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Re: [sherpa79] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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sherpa79 wrote:
I do something similar to Jay's bowline ...

... which was pub'd in Rock&Ice (IIRC) by Dave Pegg as the "Double Bowline with Bowline Back-up" --catchy name if there ever was one! Wink

In reply to:
except I don't use a double bowline and I wrap around the other "leg" of the bowline loop. I find it cleaner. i.e., tie in with a bowline, bring the tail around the part of the loop directly under the bowline and then back up through the top bight. Then back down through both of the turns in the bowline. You end up with what looks like a double bowline, but with the tail finished securely and pointed back down. Only slightly less bulky and imo easier to identify as what it is.

Hmmm, I almost follow this. The (common/basic/venerable) bowline is a marriage of a "bight" and a "loop" --the latter formed in the main line and cinching around the legs of the bight, which in turn keeps the helix qua loop (it wants to open ...).

Sounds as though you've done a Yosemite bowline except that with the tail brought back through the central loop (and I suppose that other "turn" --you speak of plurality-- is the one just formed by the tail's tucking?) and forming an overhand knot (around some parts) vs. the YoBowl's Fig.8. Well, this, too, should give the tail a challenge at coming out. (And there are various other similar ways to play with such an extra tucking, with some interesting results!)

Thanks,
*kN*

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