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mike-f


May 16, 2012, 9:19 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Ever had déjà vu? :) Try this: www.trailspace.com/forums/climbing/topics/25044.html - that was nearly ten years ago!

I'm not fussed which knot is used as long as it’s tied correctly. Knot strength is not an issue: if it was we'd be needing stronger ropes. In the UK most clubs will accept a bowline with a stopper (double overhand) tied into the loop, but a simple bowline is not a good climbing knot. It 'capsizes' far too easily and becomes a slip knot. A more important discussion might be 'Do we need a stopper knot?'

My instructor friends always say 'leave enough end to tie a stopper - then you don't need one'. I would argue 'always tie a stopper'. It is a back-up, 'belt and braces', if the tie-in knot is mis-tied it may save your life, but the main reason is that if a novice sees you doing it they will do it - and it certainly might save their life.

Rock climbing on a nice day is very different from mountaineering, possibly freezing cold, numb fingers, and taking a fall on a wet rope with light fading. Time can be critical to survival. The last thing you want is an iced up figure eight you can't undo. If you want to read some seriously well thought out advice on the topic, I'd recommend 'The Mountaineering Handbook' by Craig Connally. It's a great book to dip into, especially when it's raining and the climbing's cancelled! :).

My preference is usually a yosemite bowline with a stopper. It's easy to tie, easy to untie, easy to inspect and it's protected: you can even tie it quickly one-handed. However, I sometimes climb with an Australian who always uses a re-threaded bowline plus stopper. That ends up like a bowline on a bight, a bit like re-threading a figure eight but with two loops through the harness (some say that two loops reduces wear and strain on the harness). It won't capsize but it does use more rope and that has been an issue more than once!

It's bad form to clip in to the belayer's loop, but in an emergency it's better than dying! This will 'ringload' the knot and a figure eight may fail, they should never be ringloaded (not a problem for the modified bowline). Finally, which way do you thread your harness? It's something that's rarely mentioned, but good practice suggests 'ALWAYS thread from the top'. When you're tired it's easy to make mistakes, if you're stressed as well you can do things you just don't believe you did. It's surprisingly easy to miss a loop: I've seen people do it, I've done it myself. If you do, it's far safer to be hanging from the waistband than upside down from the leg loops....


(This post was edited by mike-f on May 16, 2012, 9:42 AM)


Amorino


May 17, 2012, 9:40 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk


shockabuku


May 17, 2012, 3:04 PM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


LostinMaine


May 17, 2012, 5:15 PM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

My bold.

in your wisdom of knotcraft, surely you are aware that a stopper behind a figure 8 is superfluous.


JimTitt


May 17, 2012, 9:25 PM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You mean he made it to his seventies using a bowline before he screwed up his tie-in? Sounds like it´s a good knot after all!


Amorino


May 22, 2012, 1:36 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.


JimTitt


May 22, 2012, 4:52 AM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventy s he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.

Let this be a lesson to all. In my opinion the figure 8 and stopper should be the the knot used.

Its not worth the risk

You appear to have an entirely unqualified opinion.


I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.

What climbing walls do has little or no connection with real climbing, they make simplistic rules to cope with the skill level of the staff not the climbers.


mike-f


May 22, 2012, 5:14 AM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily. There are a number of bowline derived arrangements however, which are suitable.

It is unusual for a UK club or centre to be prescriptive in this respect. There may well be some, but here are the listed requirements of a number from their websites:

The Castle Climbing Centre (London):
Adults with climbing experience may register to climb unsupervised at The Castle. In order to register you must be able to:
Put on a sit harness correctly.
Attach a rope to the harness using either a rethreaded figure of eight or a bowline knot.
Use a belay device to secure a falling climber.

Redpoint Birmingham:
WHEN CLIMBING
• The tall walls are designed to be climbed using a rope for
protection. Solo climbing is not acceptable on these walls.
Always use a rope to protect yourself on these climbs.
• Always use a safety harness to attach yourself to the rope.
• Always tie the rope directly into the harness using a suitable
climbing knot. Clipping in with a karabiner is not acceptable

The Cragg, Mid Suffolk Leisure Centre:
Sign a form to say you are competent and take responsibility for yourself and anyone climbing with you.

High Sports (Many centres):
Unsupervised climbing:
Before you climb without supervision we expect you to be competent in the use of, a safety harness, a suitable knot to attach a rope to the harness and a belay device to arrest a falling climber using a rope.

The Foundry, Sheffield
Can you put on a climbing harness correctly? .....
Can you attach a rope to your harness using a suitable climbing knot? ....

The Edge (Sheffield)
- be able to put on a sit harness correctly and attach a rope directly using an approved knot
- be able to safely belay a partner using an approved belay device

Even the British Mountaineering Council simply says:
4.2 Belaying
a. Connect self and others to the rope
b. Utilise belay systems at the top of a climbing wall
c. Attach self and others to the belay system and abseil ropes


sungam


May 22, 2012, 5:49 AM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
I'm not saying I'm an expert I've been climbing for three years mostly indoors but every climbing centre i have climbed in the UK will not let you climb unless you use a figure 8 with a stopper.
Climbing 3 years mostly indoors? That's cool, and I hope you stick with it and move outdoors (the weather is crackin in Scotland right now!) but it's possible you should avoid making broad statements (or really giving any strong advice at all) until you have a bit more experience Wink

P.S. where in the UK are you from?


knudenoggin


May 27, 2012, 9:11 PM
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Re: [Amorino] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Amorino wrote:
In my local climbing centre there was an accident recently where someone used a bowline. It failed on him 30ft up and he died two days later in hospital

This person was in his seventys he was very experienced and even though staff at the centre told him several times to use a figure 8 he sadly didn't listen he used his bowline and NO stopper.
Are you referring to the tragedy of November 2011, which has garnered
seemingly more speculation than fact --to wit:
http://www.rockandice.com/...ine-blamed-for-death

?
Your "he was told but ..." can be understood in various ways --that
he was at some times told this, but was seen to ignore it; or that
on the tragic climb he was SEEN using a bowline, ... .
I've yet to see any sure evidence that he in fact tied ANYthing,
and as comments on the report indicate, it could be that he got
distracted and tied nothing --as in the famous Lynn Hill accident.

But we can agree that a simple bowline (no back-up, no extension
of knotting) is not so reliably secure-when-slack in some ropes,
including rockclimbing ropes.

*kN*


knudenoggin


May 28, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Re: [mike-f] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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mike-f wrote:
A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily.
...

We should ask : What do you mean by this, by "slip knot"?!

Strictly speaking (per Ashley's Book of Knots, say), this is
an overhand knot with the tail "slipped" --i.e., finished with
a bight, as is the common shoelace tying. Often, this general
structure is loaded on opposite ends and produces thus a noose
--the overhand sliding ("slipping"?) along the main line of
the noose structure. --so, a matter of which is end/tail of the
same structure.

Perhaps you have something else in mind?
(There are other things.)
We can wonder how much practical effect these
possibilities have, too.


*kN*


majid_sabet


May 28, 2012, 8:57 AM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
Which is your preferred method for tying in? Also, if you use bowline, how you tie it off? Stopper in the loop, or above the knot, like when you tie off the fig8.

Question two: I've read that the bowline is less safe than the fig8, but way easier to untie. For general one-pitch sport climbing, bolts spreaded at 3-4 meter distances is the bowline safe enough, or stick to the good old fig8 (which is pita to loosen after projecting a route)

bowline is heavily used in mountain rescue operations and if its safe to save climbers then it should be safe to used by climbers


bearbreeder


May 28, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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and why do all these bowline accidents keep on happening ... i dont see that many accidents with a fig 8 .. and in NA anyways its a more common knot, especially for noobs Wink


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on May 28, 2012, 1:22 PM)


mike-f


May 28, 2012, 1:09 PM
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'wonder' no more... Cool
Attachments: bowslip.jpg (65.0 KB)


climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 1:30 PM
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Re: [mike-f] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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mike-f wrote:
Ever had déjà vu? :) Try this: www.trailspace.com/forums/climbing/topics/25044.html - that was nearly ten years ago!

I'm not fussed which knot is used as long as it’s tied correctly. Knot strength is not an issue: if it was we'd be needing stronger ropes. In the UK most clubs will accept a bowline with a stopper (double overhand) tied into the loop, but a simple bowline is not a good climbing knot. It 'capsizes' far too easily and becomes a slip knot. A more important discussion might be 'Do we need a stopper knot?'

My instructor friends always say 'leave enough end to tie a stopper - then you don't need one'. I would argue 'always tie a stopper'. It is a back-up, 'belt and braces', if the tie-in knot is mis-tied it may save your life, but the main reason is that if a novice sees you doing it they will do it - and it certainly might save their life.

Rock climbing on a nice day is very different from mountaineering, possibly freezing cold, numb fingers, and taking a fall on a wet rope with light fading. Time can be critical to survival. The last thing you want is an iced up figure eight you can't undo. If you want to read some seriously well thought out advice on the topic, I'd recommend 'The Mountaineering Handbook' by Craig Connally. It's a great book to dip into, especially when it's raining and the climbing's cancelled! :).

My preference is usually a yosemite bowline with a stopper. It's easy to tie, easy to untie, easy to inspect and it's protected: you can even tie it quickly one-handed. However, I sometimes climb with an Australian who always uses a re-threaded bowline plus stopper. That ends up like a bowline on a bight, a bit like re-threading a figure eight but with two loops through the harness (some say that two loops reduces wear and strain on the harness). It won't capsize but it does use more rope and that has been an issue more than once!

It's bad form to clip in to the belayer's loop, but in an emergency it's better than dying! This will 'ringload' the knot and a figure eight may fail, they should never be ringloaded (not a problem for the modified bowline). Finally, which way do you thread your harness? It's something that's rarely mentioned, but good practice suggests 'ALWAYS thread from the top'. When you're tired it's easy to make mistakes, if you're stressed as well you can do things you just don't believe you did. It's surprisingly easy to miss a loop: I've seen people do it, I've done it myself. If you do, it's far safer to be hanging from the waistband than upside down from the leg loops....

I'm knot reading that. ^^^^ Unimpressed


climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 1:31 PM
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Re: [mike-f] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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mike-f wrote:
A 'bowline' in itself is not a suitable climbing knot - it capsizes to form a slip knot, and comes loose easily. There are a number of bowline derived arrangements however, which are suitable.

It is unusual for a UK club or centre to be prescriptive in this respect. There may well be some, but here are the listed requirements of a number from their websites:

The Castle Climbing Centre (London):
Adults with climbing experience may register to climb unsupervised at The Castle. In order to register you must be able to:
Put on a sit harness correctly.
Attach a rope to the harness using either a rethreaded figure of eight or a bowline knot.
Use a belay device to secure a falling climber.

Redpoint Birmingham:
WHEN CLIMBING
• The tall walls are designed to be climbed using a rope for
protection. Solo climbing is not acceptable on these walls.
Always use a rope to protect yourself on these climbs.
• Always use a safety harness to attach yourself to the rope.
• Always tie the rope directly into the harness using a suitable
climbing knot. Clipping in with a karabiner is not acceptable

The Cragg, Mid Suffolk Leisure Centre:
Sign a form to say you are competent and take responsibility for yourself and anyone climbing with you.

High Sports (Many centres):
Unsupervised climbing:
Before you climb without supervision we expect you to be competent in the use of, a safety harness, a suitable knot to attach a rope to the harness and a belay device to arrest a falling climber using a rope.

The Foundry, Sheffield
Can you put on a climbing harness correctly? .....
Can you attach a rope to your harness using a suitable climbing knot? ....

The Edge (Sheffield)
- be able to put on a sit harness correctly and attach a rope directly using an approved knot
- be able to safely belay a partner using an approved belay device

Even the British Mountaineering Council simply says:
4.2 Belaying
a. Connect self and others to the rope
b. Utilise belay systems at the top of a climbing wall
c. Attach self and others to the belay system and abseil ropes

Knot going to read that either.


mike-f


May 28, 2012, 3:40 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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"Knot going to read that either."

Magik! Smile (Bet you did tho.... )


majid_sabet


May 28, 2012, 3:55 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
and why do all these bowline accidents keep on happening ... i dont see that many accidents with a fig 8 .. and in NA anyways its a more common knot, especially for noobs Wink


you have accident happening cause people leave short tail and do not use safety knot, however those who use bowline know that nothing untie easier than bowline, even after massive fall or under heavy load.


climbingtrash


May 28, 2012, 5:06 PM
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mike-f wrote:
"Knot going to read that either."

Magik! Smile (Bet you did tho.... )

wut does teh BET have to do with anything.


bearbreeder


May 28, 2012, 6:02 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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but but but ,,, arent bowlines more the province of more "experienced" people in NA ... or those that want to be seen as such???

so why are "experienced" people dying from bowlines while the the fig 8 rarely has issues even though its used by noobs and gumbies ...


knudenoggin


May 28, 2012, 6:13 PM
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mike-f wrote:

'wonder' no more... Cool

Although my actual use of "wonder" came to challenge this presumed
vulnerability of the knot --to wit:
> We can wonder how much practical effect these
> possibilities have, too.

It should take a fair amount of force to capsize a bowline into
this slip-knot/marlinespike_hitch arrangement, and by something
pulling on the tail. Has anyone been able to produce this effect
while climbing? I'm skeptical of that.
(In any case, we advocate for some further security precaution
for the basic bowline.)

Thanks.
(And reversing the order of photos provides a method for tying
the knot.) Wink

*kN*


moedersin


Dec 12, 2012, 3:06 PM
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John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.


jt512


Dec 12, 2012, 4:11 PM
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moedersin wrote:
John Long recently suffered a double compound ankle fracture because his bowline wasn't tied properly, I'm guessing he's tied a bowline once or twice before too.

http://www.rockandice.com/...njured-in-groundfall

I'd say if it can happen to John Long, it can happen to anyone.
Figure 8 > Bowline
Wishing him a speedy recovery.

Hard to see how you can blame a knot for its failure to be tied properly, though your use of the passive voice helps.

Jay


Marylandclimber


Dec 12, 2012, 4:53 PM
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Re: [herites] Bowline or figure eight? [In reply to]
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Just use a figure eight for almost everything I don't see the debate.


healyje


Dec 12, 2012, 5:27 PM
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Could just have easily been an unfinished figure eight - it has nothing whatsoever to do with having been a bowline.

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