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Lowering Fall in Eldo today?
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onrockandice


Jul 11, 2011, 2:36 PM
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Lowering Fall in Eldo today?
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Anyone have any "on the ground" information about this accident today? It was my climbing partners good friend and we are both concerned for him.

http://www.denverpost.com/...verpost.com#comments
[EDIT]The link says a 2nd accident of 75 feet. That's the one but it happened today. So that's an onerous report. Or the person who called us here at work has the date/time wrong for the lowering.

As we understand it, the climber never told the belayer he wanted to be taken off belay. He set the anchors up, communicated that he wanted to be lowered and then decked. The belayer was reaching for something heard the rope whiz off and that was it. We think anyway. We know for a fact the leader was dropped from the anchor after the belayer took him off. The details around it are sketchy at best. This is all coming in over the phone as I type this. This stuff sucks. Simple communication error and now a broken back.[/EDIT]


(This post was edited by onrockandice on Jul 11, 2011, 2:40 PM)


Gmburns2000


Jul 11, 2011, 2:56 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
Anyone have any "on the ground" information about this accident today? It was my climbing partners good friend and we are both concerned for him.

http://www.denverpost.com/...verpost.com#comments
[EDIT]The link says a 2nd accident of 75 feet. That's the one but it happened today. So that's an onerous report. Or the person who called us here at work has the date/time wrong for the lowering.

As we understand it, the climber never told the belayer he wanted to be taken off belay. He set the anchors up, communicated that he wanted to be lowered and then decked. The belayer was reaching for something heard the rope whiz off and that was it. We think anyway. We know for a fact the leader was dropped from the anchor after the belayer took him off. The details around it are sketchy at best. This is all coming in over the phone as I type this. This stuff sucks. Simple communication error and now a broken back.[/EDIT]

damn dude. best of luck to your friend. here's hoping the damage isn't too severe.


moose_droppings


Jul 11, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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That really sucks. Hope that any further info you get on this will bring better news.

Wishing for the best outcome.


onrockandice


Jul 11, 2011, 6:16 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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Yeah, we are talking to people close to the scene. I'm going to ask if the belayer would be willing to write up the incident here. Even though we all know about this one and it's certainly not anything new under the sun.

In the latest PETZL catalog there's a diagram of a guy being lowered and having a prussik cord attached to the other side of the rope. If I understand the diagram correctly this thing by itself would have prevented a ground fall. In the diagram the guy being lowered slides the prussik down as he is being lowered. If the belayer is killed by rockfall and drops the guy he will still be okay because the prussik will bind.

Anybody see that and am I right? Is that an overkill solution or is it worthwhile when being lowered? I'm starting to think (with the prevalence of this type of accident) that I'm going to use that method when being lowered. It only takes 1 minute to rig and it could save your life...


Gmburns2000


Jul 11, 2011, 7:13 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
Yeah, we are talking to people close to the scene. I'm going to ask if the belayer would be willing to write up the incident here. Even though we all know about this one and it's certainly not anything new under the sun.

In the latest PETZL catalog there's a diagram of a guy being lowered and having a prussik cord attached to the other side of the rope. If I understand the diagram correctly this thing by itself would have prevented a ground fall. In the diagram the guy being lowered slides the prussik down as he is being lowered. If the belayer is killed by rockfall and drops the guy he will still be okay because the prussik will bind.

Anybody see that and am I right? Is that an overkill solution or is it worthwhile when being lowered? I'm starting to think (with the prevalence of this type of accident) that I'm going to use that method when being lowered. It only takes 1 minute to rig and it could save your life...

depends on realistically how easy it is to use when lowering. If I did it, which I don't think I will, I'd probably just wrap the cord around the other rope a few times, which is what I do when rapping. I think a prussik is overkill.


bearbreeder


Jul 11, 2011, 9:45 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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Best of luck to the person

The golden rule is to not take off yr safety until you feel yrself being pulled in ....

Very preventable


carpenter


Jul 12, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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A similar thing happened a few weeks ago in Clear Creek Canyon. A friend was belaying a random drifter, who climbed to the anchors out of sight, out of hearing. Belayer thought he'd rap, climber thought he'd lower. Belayer unclipped, and so did the climber, and the climber started to fall.

On the next route over, a man was clipped in to the first anchor while belaying his partner on the 2nd pitch. As the falling climber passed him, he locked off his partner and quickly spun his free arm into the climber's slack rope, catching him with a single bare hand. Despite severe rope burns, he gently lowered the catch and finished climbing his route like nothing happened. I kid you not. bamf.


iknowfear


Jul 12, 2011, 1:23 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
Yeah, we are talking to people close to the scene. I'm going to ask if the belayer would be willing to write up the incident here. Even though we all know about this one and it's certainly not anything new under the sun.

In the latest PETZL catalog there's a diagram of a guy being lowered and having a prussik cord attached to the other side of the rope. If I understand the diagram correctly this thing by itself would have prevented a ground fall. In the diagram the guy being lowered slides the prussik down as he is being lowered. If the belayer is killed by rockfall and drops the guy he will still be okay because the prussik will bind.

Anybody see that and am I right? Is that an overkill solution or is it worthwhile when being lowered? I'm starting to think (with the prevalence of this type of accident) that I'm going to use that method when being lowered. It only takes 1 minute to rig and it could save your life...

The prussik thingy was recomended to me if you do not trust your top piece, but have decent pieces in between you and the ground.

A Prussik for beeing lowerd as standard is a PITA though -
Prevention is simple (as per JT512): You grab the other rope until it is fully weighted and you are certain that your belayer is doing his/her job.


onrockandice


Jul 13, 2011, 10:53 PM
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Re: [carpenter] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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If only climbing had a medal of honor.


iknowfear


Jul 14, 2011, 4:46 AM
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onrockandice wrote:
If only climbing had a medal of honor.

I'd call it the Schoening Award
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Schoening


Partner j_ung


Jul 14, 2011, 6:02 AM
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Re: [carpenter] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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carpenter wrote:
A similar thing happened a few weeks ago in Clear Creek Canyon. A friend was belaying a random drifter, who climbed to the anchors out of sight, out of hearing. Belayer thought he'd rap, climber thought he'd lower. Belayer unclipped, and so did the climber, and the climber started to fall.

On the next route over, a man was clipped in to the first anchor while belaying his partner on the 2nd pitch. As the falling climber passed him, he locked off his partner and quickly spun his free arm into the climber's slack rope, catching him with a single bare hand. Despite severe rope burns, he gently lowered the catch and finished climbing his route like nothing happened. I kid you not. bamf.

The Gold Glove. Hot damn.


Partner rgold


Jul 14, 2011, 7:51 AM
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It isn't hard to get totally paranoid about this type of accident. I don't do much climbing that involves lowering off, but when I do (e.g. Near Trapps Obscurities for those who know), I have a discussion with my belayer in which I say, "we're lowering---do not take me off belay, no matter what you might think I said, until I am back down on the ground." Then I stay attached to the anchor with a tether until fully supported by the belayer.

Putting a prussik or autoblock on the rope strikes me as a poor solution. Tests conducted with rappellers have shown that even when a person knows ahead of time that they will fall, they are unable to release their grip on the prussik and so it does not catch. Things might go a bit better, because at least the falling climber would have a hand on the rope, but surely this is not the best one could do.

Although no one seems to do this, it does seem to me that self-lowering is the best solution. With the rope threaded through the anchor and tied to the climber's harness as for ordinary lowering, the climber installs and ATC on the belay loop and uses it as for rappelling, thereby lowering themselves.

The convenience of being lowered by the belayer is proving mighty costly in so many instances. We're not talking about some alpine situation where speed trumps slower and safer procedures. The idea that installing a prussik or indulging in some other back-up activity is somehow too much trouble suggests that the mounting evidence and the pile of injured and dead bodies isn't having any effect on climbers, whose need to save---what?---a few minutes at most over the course of an entire day of cragging leads them to do things with a proven high risk value. Miscommunication kills!


healyje


Jul 14, 2011, 9:08 AM
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Yep, at this rate uneven rappel and lowering miscommunication accidents are going to start catching up with the relentless pace of STFUAB drops...


bearbreeder


Jul 14, 2011, 11:23 AM
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ive self lowered before ... i dont think its any safer than rappelling

others may think different, but i think the reason lowering is "safer" is that you should NOT be taken off belay when setting up for it, and if you set it up properly you are never off belay ... also you can go hands free, get hit by a rock, swing like tarzan .... and if your belayer still has you, you should be "fine"

self lowering has a lot of the same risks IMO as rappelling ...

the problem isnt lowering IMO ... the problem is people effing up and not following basic rules ... communication or not, you dont take off yr safety until you feel yrseld being pulled into the rock ...


billcoe_


Jul 14, 2011, 11:48 AM
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As the belayer I strive to have clear communications. This starts on the ground as you go through the pre-flight check off discussing what is going to occur when climber gets to the top.

On these kinds of things, WHEN WE HAVE CLEARLY AGREED IN ADVANCE THAT THE CLIMBER WILL RAP, Once I hear the "Off belay", I yell back "Belay off (persons name here)" and do not actually take them off but have merely transitioned from a mechanical belay to a hip belay. With that rope around my fat ass it's easy to focus on the climber and what the rope is really doing. The climber up there never learns that he was still on belay as I can pay out rope fast or just drop it immediately once I'm sure things are as they need to be but in parties of 3 I get some interesting feedback from the person next to me at times.

Have not rope burned my ass yet from someone changing their mind and our agreed upon methodology, but wh can say when it might come in handy some day.


JimTitt


Jul 14, 2011, 12:22 PM
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Re: [rgold] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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Self-lowering has all the drawbacks of abseiling when you have to strip the route. In other words unworkable most of the time.

Just always lower, every time, all over the country, for everybody.

Your kind of accidents just don´t occur in Europe (we screw-up tying knots instead!)

Jim


Partner cracklover


Jul 14, 2011, 1:08 PM
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j_ung wrote:
carpenter wrote:
A similar thing happened a few weeks ago in Clear Creek Canyon. A friend was belaying a random drifter, who climbed to the anchors out of sight, out of hearing. Belayer thought he'd rap, climber thought he'd lower. Belayer unclipped, and so did the climber, and the climber started to fall.

On the next route over, a man was clipped in to the first anchor while belaying his partner on the 2nd pitch. As the falling climber passed him, he locked off his partner and quickly spun his free arm into the climber's slack rope, catching him with a single bare hand. Despite severe rope burns, he gently lowered the catch and finished climbing his route like nothing happened. I kid you not. bamf.

The Gold Glove. Hot damn.

Was talking to him at a party the other day (his name's Mark). He finished telling the story and I said "Wow! Good for you!"

Mark points out his scars (still healing, now two months later), laughs, and said "No, not really."

GO


Partner j_ung


Jul 15, 2011, 5:49 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Self-lowering has all the drawbacks of abseiling when you have to strip the route. In other words unworkable most of the time.

Just always lower, every time, all over the country, for everybody.

Your kind of accidents just don´t occur in Europe (we screw-up tying knots instead!)

Jim

We need signs at the crag that say, "Fuck the anchors. Save your life." Laugh

All joking aside though, not all of the anchors here can withstand the rigors of repeated lowering, and some of those are in very sandy areas. Despite ever-increasing conscientious route development and the remarkable success of local and regional anchor-replacement programs in America, they still aren't the norm. The conclusion then is that if everybody always lowered (including self-lowering)—in numerous places—the anchors themselves would soon become the widespread cause of such accidents.

However, in cases where conscientious and responsible route developers and maintainers have installed anchors that are designed to withstand the rigors of lowering—steel rings for instance—I absolutely agree and I preach as much at the crag.

Likewise, when I install an anchor, I prefer SS rings. I want and expect people to lower, not rappel.


Partner cracklover


Jul 15, 2011, 9:57 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Self-lowering has all the drawbacks of abseiling when you have to strip the route. In other words unworkable most of the time.

Just always lower, every time, all over the country, for everybody.

Your kind of accidents just don´t occur in Europe (we screw-up tying knots instead!)

Jim

We need signs at the crag that say, "Fuck the anchors. Save your life." Laugh

All joking aside though, not all of the anchors here can withstand the rigors of repeated lowering, and some of those are in very sandy areas. Despite ever-increasing conscientious route development and the remarkable success of local and regional anchor-replacement programs in America, they still aren't the norm. The conclusion then is that if everybody always lowered (including self-lowering)—in numerous places—the anchors themselves would soon become the widespread cause of such accidents.

However, in cases where conscientious and responsible route developers and maintainers have installed anchors that are designed to withstand the rigors of lowering—steel rings for instance—I absolutely agree and I preach as much at the crag.

Likewise, when I install an anchor, I prefer SS rings. I want and expect people to lower, not rappel.

You mean these?

If I see them, I assume the guy who puts them up wants me to rap. I may lower anyway, but I'm just sayin'.

However I will always lower from chains*. They are designed to be replaced when they wear out, and typically you just need to unscrew the link and replace that.

GO

*When I say "always", I mean I leave my own hardware on the anchors, but the last person down lowers off the chains.


Partner j_ung


Jul 15, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
You mean these?

Those exact rings, but not necessarily in a hanger-ring configuration. I prefer hanger-quicklink-ring, for example.


Partner cracklover


Jul 15, 2011, 12:21 PM
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j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
You mean these?

Those exact rings, but not necessarily in a hanger-ring configuration. I prefer hanger-quicklink-ring, for example.

Okay, cool, so long as there's a quicklink somewhere in the setup.

GO


Partner j_ung


Jul 15, 2011, 12:25 PM
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cracklover wrote:

Just to clarify, if I see this exact set up, I lower 100% of the time.


bearbreeder


Jul 15, 2011, 12:28 PM
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quicklinks are cheap .. i carry one or two anyways cragging ... i just leave one on if i feel like a rap ring or chain is wearing out


onrockandice


Jul 15, 2011, 12:30 PM
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billcoe_ wrote:
As the belayer ... handy some day.

I was dragging the page down and accidentally voted your post a 1, with no way to undo I threw it to a 5. Sorry for any confusion. I think I'm a tool for even posting this but oh well...


jt512


Jul 15, 2011, 4:43 PM
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cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Self-lowering has all the drawbacks of abseiling when you have to strip the route. In other words unworkable most of the time.

Just always lower, every time, all over the country, for everybody.

Your kind of accidents just don´t occur in Europe (we screw-up tying knots instead!)

Jim

We need signs at the crag that say, "Fuck the anchors. Save your life." Laugh

All joking aside though, not all of the anchors here can withstand the rigors of repeated lowering, and some of those are in very sandy areas. Despite ever-increasing conscientious route development and the remarkable success of local and regional anchor-replacement programs in America, they still aren't the norm. The conclusion then is that if everybody always lowered (including self-lowering)—in numerous places—the anchors themselves would soon become the widespread cause of such accidents.

However, in cases where conscientious and responsible route developers and maintainers have installed anchors that are designed to withstand the rigors of lowering—steel rings for instance—I absolutely agree and I preach as much at the crag.

Likewise, when I install an anchor, I prefer SS rings. I want and expect people to lower, not rappel.

You mean these? [image]http://www.aspiring.co.nz/images/fixering.jpg[/image]

If I see them, I assume the guy who puts them up wants me to rap. I may lower anyway, but I'm just sayin'.

However I will always lower from chains*. They are designed to be replaced when they wear out, and typically you just need to unscrew the link and replace that.

GO

*When I say "always", I mean I leave my own hardware on the anchors, but the last person down lowers off the chains.

To a very good approximation, I would lower every time, regardless of hardware, at a sport crag, and would rap every time, regardless of hardware, at a trad area. Eldo is in the latter category. I suspect that it is unusual to lower there, and that the expectation would be for the climber to rap. Perhaps this was an element in the accident.

Jay


onrockandice


Jul 19, 2011, 9:30 AM
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jt512 wrote:
...Eldo is in the latter category. I suspect that it is unusual to lower there, and that the expectation would be for the climber to rap. Perhaps this was an element in the accident.

Jay

We will never know. The belayer iced up and isn't talking. Cannot remember anything says it's from stress. So it's up to speculation as to exactly what happened. Since the belayer is a friend of those involved it's really hard to press him with any demands or accusations which doesn't seem to fit the spirit of climbing. I suspect though that he may have just seen his last days in 2-man climbing team as a belayer. He may be restricted to group climbs for life...

I'll leave my thoughts out of it. Based on things I have heard (from multiple credible sources) I think there are some hard questions that need asking.

The other day I nearly flossed myself to keep my climber off the ground on a technical start that demanded a belay the moment both feet were off the ground. It was very much a "must not deck" situation immediately because of awful terrain and a guaranteed tumble down steep talus. I guess it's weird to me. I get so gripped when my climber is at the anchors that I am literally locked on to what they are doing visually. If I cannot see them, I'm worse. I won't untie them and 2 firm tugs equals slack and a fully weighted rope for longer than 5 seconds means "lower me".

We know the risks and we are all at fault for not being painstakingly aware of them with each climb in mind. My climbing partner and I came to the same conclusion the other day.

The partnership of rope is a bond as strong as marriage. It can be a great thing but bad communication will ruin a good rope as fast as bad communication will ruin a good marriage.

Communicate, communicate, communicate, then do it one more time mentally while you check your partners knot, harness, helmet (we recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground).


jt512


Jul 19, 2011, 9:56 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
[W]e recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground.

Oh, come on.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 19, 2011, 10:04 AM)


Rocquestar


Jul 20, 2011, 3:02 AM
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That works for me.


Partner j_ung


Jul 20, 2011, 4:35 AM
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Re: [jt512] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onrockandice wrote:
[W]e recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground.

Oh, come on.

Jay

Kinda depends on how you say it. If you just say, "Gonna wear your helmet?" And the response is, "No, I'm okay," then it's not so far out there. If the response is more like, "I understand and accept the risks associated with not wearing a helmet, including but not limited to rock fall, gear fall, head bumping, bee stings and sunburn, and release and indemnify you, the Belayer (hereafter identified as Belayer) from and against all risk and liability arising from my decision not to wear said helmet," well then, um, yeah.


patto


Jul 20, 2011, 4:52 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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What I don't understand is why so many people can simply just dump their weight on the rope without a second thoughte to the consequences. Surely it is an essential part of climbing, not to mention the human nature of self preservation, to ensure that the rope is securely holding your weight before you release your safety.

If you can't look after you own safety in such a simply way then should you really be on lead? Climbing involves a partnership and individual responsibility. These lowering accidents normally involve a failure of both.



I like rappelling because it puts the control in the hands of the person who is most aware of the circumstance and has greatest vested interest in safe conduct. Sure others advocate lowering, but the fact remains that the previous reasons are compelling. Lowering is safe if done correctly. Abseiling is safe it done correctly. But as far as I'm concerned I want to be in charge of my safety.


bearbreeder


Jul 20, 2011, 10:18 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:

We will never know. The belayer iced up and isn't talking. Cannot remember anything says it's from stress. So it's up to speculation as to exactly what happened. Since the belayer is a friend of those involved it's really hard to press him with any demands or accusations which doesn't seem to fit the spirit of climbing. I suspect though that he may have just seen his last days in 2-man climbing team as a belayer. He may be restricted to group climbs for life...

a person who takes someone off belay without it being asked for and drops that person should not be belaying ... period ...

there are some smaller mistakes that are more understandable (a tad too much or little slack, short roping, etc...) that everyone has done at least a few times in their life ...

but something big like that where there is a complete failure ... is inexcusable, especially if the belayer cant come clean and learn

whenever i know someone who is climbing with such a person ... i let them know of the mistake ... not out of spite or the need to put down that person ... but because its a safety issue ...


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 10:11 AM
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Re: [jt512] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Oh, come on.
Jay

If you are new to climbing with us and want to go on lead that's how it goes. If you have been with us for a bit the shake-out goes like this... [Note: This only applies to lead climbing. Our crag is run-out bolts are typically 10 to 15 feet apart. If it's top-rope then we skip the helmet bit.]

Want your helmet?
No.
K.

{see reason at bottom}

If you are a new climber to our group.

C=climber, B=belayer

B: Want your helmet?
C: No.
B: Okay, that's fine but you understand the risks?
C: Yeah.
B: K.

REASON: We ask for one simple reason, people forget. Pretty much every time I climb I forget to put on my helmet. I want to wear it but I forget. So that bit of dialog is priceless to me. That's mainly why.


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 10:16 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Kinda depends on how you say it. If you just say, "Gonna wear your helmet?" And the response is, "No, I'm okay," then it's not so far out there. If the response is more like, "I understand and accept the risks associated with not wearing a helmet, including but not limited to rock fall, gear fall, head bumping, bee stings and sunburn, and release and indemnify you, the Belayer (hereafter identified as Belayer) from and against all risk and liability arising from my decision not to wear said helmet," well then, um, yeah.

Yeah, you nailed it. For me it's more about forgetfullness. On lead I want to wear a helmet PERIOD. The other day whilst on lead I took a nice pendulum (on 12' of rope) and came into contact with a basalt column. I managed to hit feet first and it was a solid hit. I shudder to think what would have happened had I bonked head first.


jt512


Jul 21, 2011, 10:37 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Oh, come on.
Jay

If you are new to climbing with us and want to go on lead that's how it goes. If you have been with us for a bit the shake-out goes like this... [Note: This only applies to lead climbing. Our crag is run-out bolts are typically 10 to 15 feet apart. If it's top-rope then we skip the helmet bit.]

Want your helmet?
No.
K.

{see reason at bottom}

If you are a new climber to our group.

C=climber, B=belayer

B: Want your helmet?
C: No.
B: Okay, that's fine but you understand the risks?
C: Yeah.
B: K.

REASON: We ask for one simple reason, people forget. Pretty much every time I climb I forget to put on my helmet. I want to wear it but I forget. So that bit of dialog is priceless to me. That's mainly why.

Now, you claim that it's just a reminder in case the climber forgot to put on his helmet, but that does not describe the red comment. What's the point in asking a patronizing question like that? It strikes me as being purely rhetorical anyway. I'll bet no one has ever seriously answered "no."

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 21, 2011, 10:39 AM)


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 11:02 AM
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Re: [jt512] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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New climber, on lead. We know nothing about him.

I can expand our whole thing if you wish. It's not legalistic like what you think. My first comment said, "We recently added helmets... and something about you don't leave the ground without acknowledging the fact. It makes sense especially for me where I forget my helmet all the time.

If you are a new to the group climber, you want to lead and you want to lead without a helmet. We just do our best to make sure you are the real deal. Of course they could lie or whatever...

It's not legalistic. It's informal and it's for safety.


jt512


Jul 21, 2011, 11:25 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
New climber, on lead. We know nothing about him.

Then why are you climbing with him?

In reply to:
I can expand our whole thing if you wish. It's not legalistic like what you think. My first comment said, "We recently added helmets... and something about you don't leave the ground without acknowledging the fact. It makes sense especially for me where I forget my helmet all the time.

With each post you further downplay the useless, insulting, patronizing part. In your first post on the subject you said that if the climber doesn't want to wear a helmet that "you have to state out loud that . . . you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground." In your second post you claimed that this requirement only applies to new climbers in your group, and in your last post you pretend that this requirement doesn't exist at all.

I can understand why you might include helmets in a checklist. I cannot understand why you would require your partner to verbally acknowledge the risk of climbing without a helmet. What is the point of this? And what's up with "before we let you leave the ground"? What are you doing: rock climbing with adults or running a summer camp?

Jay


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 11:30 AM
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Re: [jt512] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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Guilty

JT512: 50 - ME: 0

Game Over

Victor: JTWink
Loser: Me Tongue

Patronizing or Insulting was never my intent. I apologize and will abdicate at this point before I dig a deeper hole. None of this was meant to be condescending. I am sorry if I came across that way.Angelic


patto


Jul 21, 2011, 1:21 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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Onrockandice. Initially, the choice of phrasing and your insistence on strict adherence does seem a little over the top.

However you have explained you reasons well and at the end of the day you really don't need to justify yourself to us.

It seems some people around here just like arguing with others. (even more than me! Blush)


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 2:47 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
... (we recently added helmets to our check and you have to state out loud that you do not wish to wear one and you accept the risks before we let you leave the ground).

I really don't see strict adherence anywhere in what I said.

B: Want to put your helmet on?
C: Nope.
B: You sure? You are on lead, you've not climbed with me before...
C: Yeah, I'm sure.
B: On belay.

When I wrote that I wasn't expecting it to be pedanticly scrutinized. I honestly have no clue why something that makes the experience safer would be scrutinized. Once questioned I tried to add more detail and I certainly wasn't wanting to be flippant or disrespectful. Then those comments were dissected. {Repeat}. Finally it was, "Surrender" or be caught up in an argument that was just for the sake of arguement. Nobody was benefitting except maybe JT. He's very precise about grammer, structure, implied meaning, expressed meaning, etc...

I have no desire to resist and argue nor to be entrapped by anything I've said. Thanks for your comments though. I'm just not any good at arguing at all. It's a skill I'd rather not develop any further than I have.

We are learning and we are improving constantly. What we did last week me might not be what we do this week. It's all good to me. I appreciate this place a lot and don't want to wear out my welcome. Wink


bearbreeder


Jul 21, 2011, 2:57 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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welcome to rc.com ... if you dont do as the "experts" say ... youll be a dead gumbie in no time ... or called an idiot Tongue


onrockandice


Jul 21, 2011, 3:06 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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I think we should discuss etiquette at the dinner table now. What's the small fork for?


healyje


Jul 21, 2011, 4:23 PM
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Re: [patto] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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patto wrote:
What I don't understand is why so many people can simply just dump their weight on the rope without a second thought to the consequences.

Trained repetitiously to do so by sport climbing, perhaps...? I mean, what's different about weighting the rope at the anchor versus any other place on the climb?


onrockandice


Jul 26, 2011, 1:32 PM
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Re: [healyje] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
...I mean, what's different about weighting the rope at the anchor versus any other place on the climb?

If my belayer takes me off belay while I'm mid-climb I'm fixing at my next bolt. Rapelling down, packing my gear and leaving without a word said. If it's my draws up I'll clean as I come down after building a reasonable bail anchor. I should beat their face in, steal all their stuff and dump their body in a canyon. This however is rc.com and that's just not how we do things here. Tongue

I think the reason so many people can just weight the rope without thinking is because they don't hang out here and read every single character typed in this particular forum of RC.COM. That's my belief.Angelic


Partner j_ung


Jul 28, 2011, 4:13 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
I think we should discuss etiquette at the dinner table now. What's the small fork for?

Combing my butt hair?


sungam


Jul 28, 2011, 5:28 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
onrockandice wrote:
I think we should discuss etiquette at the dinner table now. What's the small fork for?

Combing my butt hair?
Dammit, man, I was eating lunch!


timstich


Jul 28, 2011, 7:24 PM
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Re: [sungam] Lowering Fall in Eldo today? [In reply to]
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I almost always rappel and tell my belayer that on the ground before I climb. I do that so my belayer can immediately go do something else when we are done and I feel more in control of the situation. A lot of the places we climb have loud rivers nearby, so this keeps communication to a minimum.

I'll have my belayer lower me if I have to clean an overhanging route on the other hand. Trying to clean something like that on rappel is risky.


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