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joemac3


Jul 29, 2011, 4:26 PM
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Smooth moves
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I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?


petsfed


Jul 29, 2011, 5:02 PM
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Start by insisting on 3-points of contact at all times. Its very limiting, so its just a training exercise, but it allows you to feel in balance and in control. While in balance and in control, find the limits of each stance. Move your center of gravity left and right, forward and back, until you are about to fall over. Find out how far you can let your body hang in any given direction from each position.

Next, focus on making twice as many foot movements as hand movements. For every one time you move your hand, you must move both feet. While you're doing this, pretend that you have glue on your hands and feet so that where ever you touch your hand or foot to the hold first, that's where it stays. With the glued hands/quiet feet drill, the key is to slow down, look ahead, and watch your hand or foot go all the way to where you want it to go.

Once you've got that dialed, go back to one-to-one hand and foot movements, but again, before you can move your other hand, you must move one of your feet.

Finally (and this is the one that really sealed it for me), force yourself to use same-side-in climbing. That is, figure out which arm you want to reach with, and before you do, rotate your entire body so that the hip on that side is touching the wall before, during, and after the reach. So if you reach with your right arm for a hold, you must position your body so that your right hip is touching the wall during the move. As you get better, you don't have to touch the wall with your hip anymore, but after a long enough time, the hip rotation, which is the core of smoothness, will feel natural.

All of these are taken from The Self Coached Climber which will lay out these exercises in much greater detail.


Bogey__6


Jul 29, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Climb top roped blindfolded. Then repeat the route without the blind fold. If you still feel rough climb it twice blind. It will come to you.


Partner abe_ascends


Jul 29, 2011, 6:00 PM
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joemac3 wrote:
I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?

An exercise called "Silent feet," also noted in the Self Coached Climber. Focus on the upward and downward movement of the legs, taking care not to make a sound from the foot touching the hold.


ceebo


Aug 2, 2011, 3:20 PM
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Start off with traversing, every time you move a hand keep it off the wall for 5 seconds. At the same time, try to keep your chest, hips and face within 2 inches of the wall.

Just try it ^^.


jbro_135


Aug 2, 2011, 5:44 PM
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How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...


ghisino


Aug 3, 2011, 3:53 AM
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+1 on the "same side" thing explained above, and on the foot moves thing.

I'm not the biggest fan of the "3 points of contact" all the time, especially since most people assume that the 2 lower points should be actual footholds.
Imho engrains a very bad habit, since above a certain level, on 90% of your moves the easier and smoothest option is using only one foothold and pushing into the wall with the other foot.

(brief paragraph on the subject midway in this blog from dave mac leod http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.com/...chnique-classes.html)



But then more generally

-consider the amount of time you spend on routes/boulders that ffeel easy.
If it's not a lot, just doing more of it might be a solution.

two drills for when you climb easy stuff :

-continuous movement. You can climb slowly, but you can't stop. At any time, at least one of your limbs should be moving.

- try to deliberately push your tempo to the two extremes.
I find that climbing very slowly (but with continuous speed throughout the move, sloth-like) makes you a bit more aware of the "least resistance" path.
On the other hand, speeding through the moves develops your coordination and your ability to use momentum and cut off any superflous move.
Tricky bit : you don't have to climb at your absolute maximum speed, but at the maximum speed at which your technique doesn't deteriorate.


petsfed


Aug 3, 2011, 6:55 AM
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jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...
Only certain parts of the body. Try it then judge it. Also, the point is to keep your hand or foot in the same spot on the hold. If you don't need that extra contact point, then don't put your hand or foot on a hold.

As for the three points, its only really useful for finding your balance. A lot of non-smooth climbing comes from a poor awareness of balance.


spikeddem


Aug 3, 2011, 8:50 AM
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petsfed wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...
Only certain parts of the body. Try it then judge it. Also, the point is to keep your hand or foot in the same spot on the hold. If you don't need that extra contact point, then don't put your hand or foot on a hold.

As for the three points, its only really useful for finding your balance. A lot of non-smooth climbing comes from a poor awareness of balance.

Jbro was responding to ceebo's "two inch" comment, not your comment.


jbro_135


Aug 3, 2011, 1:02 PM
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petsfed wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...
Only certain parts of the body. Try it then judge it. Also, the point is to keep your hand or foot in the same spot on the hold. If you don't need that extra contact point, then don't put your hand or foot on a hold.

As for the three points, its only really useful for finding your balance. A lot of non-smooth climbing comes from a poor awareness of balance.


Yeah I was responding to ceebo, your post was basically the advice I would have given if you hadn't already, I gave you 5 stars sir.


ceebo


Aug 4, 2011, 2:00 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...

Its possible, just not straight forward.


sspssp


Aug 4, 2011, 3:09 PM
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Climb easy routes and focus on climbing smoothly until you can climb smoothly without having to focus on it.

Then keep upping the difficultly.


damienclimber


Aug 4, 2011, 3:20 PM
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sspssp wrote:
Climb easy routes and focus on climbing smoothly until you can climb smoothly without having to focus on it.

Then keep upping the difficultly.

Keep reminding yourself to style,
Re-climb routes -muscle memory


joemac3


Aug 4, 2011, 4:38 PM
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Thank you guys for the tips. I can't wait to start working on being smooth.


petsfed


Aug 4, 2011, 6:11 PM
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ceebo wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...

Its possible, just not straight forward.

Also, terrible advice.

Bring your hips into the wall while you're pushing off your feet, but otherwise, see what the situation dictates.

Sometimes, keeping your body close to the wall can really help keep your weight over your feet, or make the hand holds better. Sometimes, it interferes with your ability to see the holds, let alone get your feet onto them.

Try a high step while keeping your hips close to the wall. After the 20th or so time you fail at the move, you'll see the problem.


ceebo


Aug 5, 2011, 10:10 AM
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petsfed wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
How are you supposed to turn properly with your body glued to the wall? Climbing like that doesn't even seem physically possible...

Its possible, just not straight forward.

Also, terrible advice.

Bring your hips into the wall while you're pushing off your feet, but otherwise, see what the situation dictates.

Sometimes, keeping your body close to the wall can really help keep your weight over your feet, or make the hand holds better. Sometimes, it interferes with your ability to see the holds, let alone get your feet onto them.

Try a high step while keeping your hips close to the wall. After the 20th or so time you fail at the move, you'll see the problem.

You often high step while traversing?. I do not recall saying you MUST keep within 2 inches, i said ''try''. If you did try, you would maybe see why it is not ''bad advice''. You need to have good climbing control to stick that close, oh wait.. what was the op's problem again?.

You say something about dictation of sequence?, on a hard route sure. The word you are looking for in this case of movement training (that engages many more holds) would be ''limitation'' of climbing skill.

Also, a half decent climber would have spotted his foot holds ahead of time, way before they are out of view. People do ok climbing blindfolded, but suddenly.... in your opinion.... they are worse off if they cant see what's directly below them.. even though they seen it coming.


petsfed


Aug 5, 2011, 11:54 AM
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You'd have to be blind to have the kind of non-visual body awareness that allows you to see a microscopic foothold several feet away, then know exactly where it is without looking when it finally comes time to use it, and place your foot there in precisely the right fashion to actually use it, first try.

The only time I've been that automatic about a foothold, I'd worked the route so much that I was moving smoothly regardless.

The "suck your hips in" advice is a lot like the "straight arms" advice: something that works initially, but learning the principles that cause those specific tactics to work in certain situations will be much more useful.


ceebo


Aug 5, 2011, 3:08 PM
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petsfed wrote:
You'd have to be blind to have the kind of non-visual body awareness that allows you to see a microscopic foothold several feet away, then know exactly where it is without looking when it finally comes time to use it, and place your foot there in precisely the right fashion to actually use it, first try.

Why a microscopic foot hold?.. are we talking about ''training'' here or ''performance'' climbing?. I would assume his ''training'' level is not at such where every foothold is microscopic. In fact i would be surprised if 1 out of 10 were.

In reply to:
The only time I've been that automatic about a foothold, I'd worked the route so much that I was moving smoothly regardless.

So since you can't do it, nobody can. Do you like my sig?.

In reply to:
The "suck your hips in" advice is a lot like the "straight arms" advice: something that works initially, but learning the principles that cause those specific tactics to work in certain situations will be much more useful.

No, its nothing like the straight arm advice. Keeping close to the wall requires greater muscle conditioning, and staying close to the wall is far more vital to actual climbing. What is the point of learning how to rest or clip efficiently with straight arms if you can not get up to the rest/bolt in the first place?. Getting their takes muscle, did you know.


petsfed


Aug 5, 2011, 8:48 PM
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I even explained how they are similar. I think you stopped reading just before the colon (:).

Watch an experienced climber move their feet. Typically, unless the holds require otherwise, they'll sag down and out, getting their hips away from the wall, then they'll place their feet, then they'll move their hips close to the wall again. Why? Because that way they know that they're putting their feet on the best holds available.

All this stay-close garbage will teach people is to put their feet on the first thing they don't immediately slip off of. Learn to put your feet where you mean to, then move your hips close to the wall to stand up on them, then get your hips away from the wall again so you can see where you need to move next.

Training technique involves more than just doing an exercise. You have to recognize what it is trying to teach you.


ceebo


Aug 6, 2011, 5:41 AM
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petsfed wrote:
I even explained how they are similar. I think you stopped reading just before the colon (:).

Watch an experienced climber move their feet. Typically, unless the holds require otherwise, they'll sag down and out, getting their hips away from the wall, then they'll place their feet, then they'll move their hips close to the wall again. Why? Because that way they know that they're putting their feet on the best holds available.

All this stay-close garbage will teach people is to put their feet on the first thing they don't immediately slip off of. Learn to put your feet where you mean to, then move your hips close to the wall to stand up on them, then get your hips away from the wall again so you can see where you need to move next.

Training technique involves more than just doing an exercise. You have to recognize what it is trying to teach you.

You do not have to sag out to see a foot hold. The only time i see that acceptable is in a high step or a smear.. but both cases have nothing to do with the fact that you could or could not see the hold. I hope i don't have to explain why?.

In every other case it is better to keep hips in and manipulate the torso to get view on the rock, rather than sagging out. The moment your ass is off the wall more than 6 inches you have put 30% (maybe more) extra body weight onto your fingers. That % increases with every inch. If that can be avoided, mostly it can.. then why use such a inefficient technique?. I know why.. because its not hard to learn.. and it does the trick. Doesn't make it right.

Oh and ofc, in dynamic initiation the hips or other parts of the body will obviously have to come off momentarily.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 6, 2011, 5:47 AM)


gunkiemike


Aug 7, 2011, 4:00 PM
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joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.


younggun


Aug 8, 2011, 8:23 AM
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The key to being smooth is a lot of climbing when you are a little tired. When you are fresh, if your a male, you can rely on your strength and just pull hard to execute a move. Once you are tired, you have to rely more on technique as your strength is limited. Bouldering at 60-70% of your limit when tired can help. But, remember you want to be on problems you are completing when tired. If you are so tired that you are falling, go down a grade or two. Once your technique improves, it will help you climb problems at your limit when you are fresh.
In reply to:

Hope this helps.


(This post was edited by younggun on Aug 8, 2011, 8:24 AM)


petsfed


Aug 8, 2011, 8:57 AM
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All right, I'll bite. When I set at the wall this afternoon, I'll try your 6" thing.

Then I'll report back.


johnwesely


Aug 8, 2011, 9:09 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.

Work on your core is probably some of the weakest advice I have ever heard. When I sport climb, I like the routes to be really steep, but my core is never my point of failure. However, I can't even complete a single set of any pilates exercise or do more than a few reps on a captains chair. By all measurements, my "core" is fairly weak and has extremely poor endurance, but my feet never cut, even on really steep routes. Climbing strength is far too nebulous to be improved by "core" exercises.


essay


Aug 8, 2011, 9:18 AM
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You want smooth moves? Try Prunes. Or suffering. You need to suffer more before you can even ask this question.


csproul


Aug 8, 2011, 9:43 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.

Work on your core is probably some of the weakest advice I have ever heard. When I sport climb, I like the routes to be really steep, but my core is never my point of failure. However, I can't even complete a single set of any pilates exercise or do more than a few reps on a captains chair. By all measurements, my "core" is fairly weak and has extremely poor endurance, but my feet never cut, even on really steep routes. Climbing strength is far too nebulous to be improved by "core" exercises.
No, no, no...gunkie is clearly correct. After all, he was able to diagnose the OP's problem from a single avatar picture. You just obviously just lack the extra special perceptive powers that enable him to make such recommendations from a single crappy photo.


gunkiemike


Aug 8, 2011, 10:45 AM
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Was I talking to you?


johnwesely


Aug 8, 2011, 10:56 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.


spikeddem


Aug 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.

Work on your core is probably some of the weakest advice I have ever heard. When I sport climb, I like the routes to be really steep, but my core is never my point of failure. However, I can't even complete a single set of any pilates exercise or do more than a few reps on a captains chair. By all measurements, my "core" is fairly weak and has extremely poor endurance, but my feet never cut, even on really steep routes. Climbing strength is far too nebulous to be improved by "core" exercises.

To be fair, feet cutting is, like, the MOST drastic symptom of failing to maintain tension. Even a two inch sag on a crux move can mean failure. Accordingly, a one inch sag over several moves can worsen a pump.

Edit: He may not be missing core strength, but perhaps core coordination.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 8, 2011, 11:34 AM)


gunkiemike


Aug 8, 2011, 2:32 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.


johnwesely


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gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.


Learner


Aug 8, 2011, 8:13 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.


(This post was edited by Learner on Aug 8, 2011, 8:27 PM)


johnwesely


Aug 9, 2011, 6:03 AM
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Learner wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.

To be honest, I really don't know that, but I do know that in terms of strength, I am much weaker than my peers who climb at a similar level. Maybe if I had a stronger core, my technique would be better, and I would climb harder. I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.


JoeHamilton


Aug 9, 2011, 6:46 AM
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joemac3 wrote:
I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?


FEET, FEET, FEET. Please don't take this as a brag, but follow what I am going to attempt to say.
Now and again I will get a compliment on SMOOTHNESS, Graceful, Easy going, climbing. I am not a supper strong climber or boulderer. I'm just getting back into it and climbing maybe V.3 and tr around 5.10- 5..11. I LOVE to traverse, especially in the gym, the routes are always changing so the traverse does as well. I find also, if you slow your thinking down and just enjoy a grade or two lower then your limit you can use less strength and more technique. I personally like the meditation value in climbing, when all there is, is me and the rock, cars go quiet, the rustle of the leaves are quiet, the others at the crag or boulder are just chatter, and I am my focus is two to three moves ahead of me. It all = smoothness


(This post was edited by JoeHamilton on Aug 9, 2011, 6:47 AM)


ceebo


Aug 9, 2011, 9:14 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
Learner wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.

To be honest, I really don't know that, but I do know that in terms of strength, I am much weaker than my peers who climb at a similar level. Maybe if I had a stronger core, my technique would be better, and I would climb harder. I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

I have to say, i do watch ALOT of new climbers and one thing for sure is that 1/3 of them have what i would define as severe core weakness on overhangs. It is also rather interesting that ''most'' of those who suffer from this are also on the side of being over weight.


vencido


Aug 9, 2011, 10:59 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.


petsfed


Aug 9, 2011, 4:18 PM
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All right, I tried the hips close thing and I won't change my mind. It is the case that you will spend a lot of time with your hips close to the wall if you have good technique. Its just that such a phenomenon is a consequence of good technique, not a cause.

Swivelling your hips, keeping the line of force parallel to the line of motion, finding the best body position for a hold, all of these will tend to keep your hips close in some situations, but they all work in all situations, whereas simply keeping your hips close can be downright counter-productive sometimes.


ceebo


Aug 9, 2011, 5:33 PM
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petsfed wrote:
All right, I tried the hips close thing and I won't change my mind. It is the case that you will spend a lot of time with your hips close to the wall if you have good technique. Its just that such a phenomenon is a consequence of good technique, not a cause.

Swivelling your hips, keeping the line of force parallel to the line of motion, finding the best body position for a hold, all of these will tend to keep your hips close in some situations, but they all work in all situations, whereas simply keeping your hips close can be downright counter-productive sometimes.

Their are obviusly limitations to what moves this drill can achieve efficiantly while staying within the 2 inches (or 6 if you like). But, imo.. as long as you analyze those bad moves as you climb, they help better define what feels right. It also helps you get confortable with climbing under limited range of movement conditions, hard micro edge climbs need that sort of skill, especialy the tiny sloper type moves. On such moves like that even having your head too far back off the wall can put enough extra outward force to peel you off the hold.

Keeping hips close is not a result of good technique. Just like not over gripping, its something you have to learn and then keep in check.

Need to find a new spell check btw, sorry for the bad spelling.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 9, 2011, 5:36 PM)


mr.tastycakes


Aug 10, 2011, 5:30 AM
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vencido wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.

+2. Using body tension is a skill; it's a matter of coordination, not strength.


ceebo


Aug 10, 2011, 7:10 AM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
vencido wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.

+2. Using body tension is a skill; it's a matter of coordination, not strength.

-2, it's both.


petsfed


Aug 10, 2011, 8:55 AM
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Well, provided you're in reasonably good shape to begin with, it isn't really necessary to do core specific exercises to improve as a climber, as it tends to develop on its own. However, as has been said, you do need to consciously develop that muscle coordination.

I think i've been looking at it wrong. You and I have some pretty divergent ideas about training. I've never found much use in exercises that didn't directly relate to my climbing, and if there was some exaggeration to any movement, it could be toned down as time went on. The exercises i've taught never included vague advice like "keep your hips close" because I could get the students to learn the ideas that lead to that (see above) via specific movement advice.

However, if your method gets the same results, great!


ceebo


Aug 10, 2011, 1:40 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Well, provided you're in reasonably good shape to begin with, it isn't really necessary to do core specific exercises to improve as a climber, as it tends to develop on its own. However, as has been said, you do need to consciously develop that muscle coordination.

I think i've been looking at it wrong. You and I have some pretty divergent ideas about training. I've never found much use in exercises that didn't directly relate to my climbing, and if there was some exaggeration to any movement, it could be toned down as time went on. The exercises i've taught never included vague advice like "keep your hips close" because I could get the students to learn the ideas that lead to that (see above) via specific movement advice.

However, if your method gets the same results, great!

Tbh i personally use it along with other things just to keep me entertained while doing those long ass endurance drills. You are also more likely past any significant gains that could be made other than general larger muscle endurance. But, try it with some students.. if they can not do it first then they have some technique learning and gains to be made. 6 inches is too easy btw.. but a good start level for the less able. Staying with in 2 inches for the hips chest and head should be the final target. I usually set them a distance of around 10M to complete.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 10, 2011, 1:46 PM)


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 1:26 PM
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Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless. If you want to be smooth, pick a route about a full number grade above your current redpoint that you can do some of the moves on. Keep working it. By the time you get it, you will be smoother than before. And seriously, for the good smooth moves you gotta eat prunes.


billcoe_


Aug 16, 2011, 2:11 PM
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Follow an old master. I was out the other day with a guy who had been climbing longer than me (I'm @ 40 years), He was so graceful and smooth. It helped me.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 3:04 PM
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essay wrote:
Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless. If you want to be smooth, pick a route about a full number grade above your current redpoint that you can do some of the moves on. Keep working it. By the time you get it, you will be smoother than before. And seriously, for the good smooth moves you gotta eat prunes.

Yes, doing long ass multi pitch is my goal.. but i do not recall reccomending long ass endurance to the op. You read wrong, ''home boy''.

Your idea of training smooth moves is to climb at limit?. Do you understand that he may still climb like shit, but just get stronger?. As in.. the plane is shaped like a brick.. don't fly so well... instead of taking it to the wind tunnel for some smooth aero dynamics, lets just give it 2 extra engines?. Fail logic is fail ''home boy''.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 3:11 PM
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essay wrote:
Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless.

There are many benefits outside of long ass endurance routes that can be gained by doing long ass endurance drills. One of them is better recovery during shakeouts (heck, even between moves), and another is better recovery between routes. A third benefit is keeping a higher percentage of the climbing below the anaerobic theshold. This allows some people to recover where others may pump out. Not only can you recover in more places, but you can recover more quickly, too!


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 3:43 PM
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Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 3:56 PM
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essay wrote:
Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.

Looks like a case of agreeing to disagree, my man.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 4:06 PM
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essay wrote:
Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.

You talk like a person who is still dreaming that they one day.. just one day.. may be the best in the world.

Tell ye what though, since your so bad ass. Join me in Scotland next year when i go to free solo ben nevis, i would love to see you piss in your pants on 5.10 climbing.. homey.


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 4:52 PM
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I'll piss on your face if you really want.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 5:20 PM
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essay wrote:
I'll piss on your face if you really want.

Not likely, since i would be climbing far above you. No offence, but you strike me as the kinde peroson who would rag another off the wall to save your own ass.


petsfed


Aug 16, 2011, 8:09 PM
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ceebo wrote:
Your idea of training smooth moves is to climb at limit?. Do you understand that he may still climb like shit, but just get stronger?. As in.. the plane is shaped like a brick.. don't fly so well... instead of taking it to the wind tunnel for some smooth aero dynamics, lets just give it 2 extra engines?. Fail logic is fail ''home boy''.

Well, the original intention of campusing was to improve endurance, in the sense that if you were so retardedly strong that V10 didn't put you over the anaerobic threshold, you wouldn't be pumped when you got to the hardest climbing.

Still, you don't become smooth by simply forcing yourself to get on harder moves. That is to say, you don't learn anything about efficiency (which is the heart and soul of "smooth" climbing) if you're above your limit, just how to power through it. If you already are an efficient climber, you may end up adding power to efficiency, but you won't learn new, more efficient techniques when you're fighting just to stay on.

This would be akin to telling a person that the best way to learn how to drive is to enter a street race. Sure, they may learn a lot about how lousy a driver they are, but unless they already have an idea of what to do right, all they'll learn is how unpleasant and counterproductive it can be do things wrong.


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:13 PM
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Yea man, drive that course for a year, you don't think your driving will improve?

I said commit and work that climb, not get on it once and punt. So if I am going to use your analogy, I would say that you don't want to just enter a street race, you want to practice that course for a year or more and then enter the street race when you are ready. If the climb is that much harder you will not be able to muscle through it, a progression in your climbing must manifest in order for you to achieve success. Furthermore, I said make sure you can do some of the moves, othewise there is no point in getting on it. I love the idea that you can muscle through a climb that is so far above your level, it ain't gonna happen, that is why it is called your level.

If you do send that climb, you may be suprised to discover that you have just progressed your climbing level. Most likely you are now a smoother climber, because that is what happens when you progress as a climber, you become fluid. To adress your analogy again, Your racer won't learn shit about racing by taking long country drives. He may not want to enter the Daytona 500 either, but it has to be a race, not a county drive, in order to progress as a racer.


petsfed


Aug 17, 2011, 12:26 PM
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And if the stated goal is to simply learn how to drive? I said "learn how to drive", not "win races".

Let me be clear: if you're consistently climbing 5.12a and you start projecting a 5.13b, by the time you finally send you will have progressed as a climber, and will definitely be a smoother climber in the 12s.

But if you're climbing 5.10a and start projecting 5.12a (the gap is pretty similar in terms of doability of moves), you will have gotten stronger, but no better. You'll almost certainly be no smoother on 10s.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 12:34 PM
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petsfed wrote:
And if the stated goal is to simply learn how to drive? I said "learn how to drive", not "win races".

Let me be clear: if you're consistently climbing 5.12a and you start projecting a 5.13b, by the time you finally send you will have progressed as a climber, and will definitely be a smoother climber in the 12s.

But if you're climbing 5.10a and start projecting 5.12a (the gap is pretty similar in terms of doability of moves), you will have gotten stronger, but no better. You'll almost certainly be no smoother on 10s.

Might I recommend agreeing to disagree with Essay? It's worked wonders for me.


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:35 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:00 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 4:40 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


No I don't. I didn't notice such a difference when I began redpointing 5.11 and 5.12 I only felt a difference when I began redpointing 5.13. I have a friend who only noticed a difference when he began redpointing 5.14. Your distinction is your experience, which is fine, but it is realitive to where you began your climbing experience, who taught you to climb, who you climb with, and where you climb most often. Your colors show through every time.

anyway,

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there. Sure, if you have the money hire a kick ass personal trainer do it, but if not, pick a hard ass project and work it. I know this sounds risky, you might not send, but the experience will be worth it. It's all about learning how to link hard moves and rest.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 6:37 PM
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Re: [jt512] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace


petsfed


Aug 17, 2011, 7:20 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace

I believe the question was asked by a beginner.

And god forbid that training approaches change as you become a better climber and more clearly understand what your goals are. You don't get to be a 5.12 climber without learning some sort of smoothness, but I know plenty of 5.11 climbers who wouldn't know a cross-through from a crossed eye.

I would hate to be a beginner climbing with you, since you insist on the suffering start before the fun has.

Edit: nope, not a beginner, but somebody taking the first step towards improving as a climber. Still, a project at your limit requires that every climb at that level, not just the ones that aren't "your style", is stopping you. And I doubt that that's this fellow's problem.


(This post was edited by petsfed on Aug 17, 2011, 7:28 PM)


JoeHamilton


Aug 17, 2011, 7:47 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace



What is wrong with peaking out at 5.12? If your smooth fluid and graceful marking the climb look like a dance with romantic intentions with the rock. The point is the OP noticed his movement looked forced not smooth like his partners. It doesn't matter if they are 5.2 or 5.14, Clumsy forced movement is just that. FOOT WORK is what will make one look SMOOTH, TRAVERSING will do it , lots and lots of traversing in the gym where the holds change a lot do to the resetting of routes. Not staying low the ground, go up and down little holds big jugs, right to left, left to rite. try it for two weeks then go back to bouldering with the video camera again and see if your smoother. WORK THE FEET and LEGS, I think if the OP feels he has FORCED MOVEMENT it because he is already muscling up problems above his level, cause the arms let him.


JoeHamilton


Aug 17, 2011, 7:49 PM
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Re: [joemac3] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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joemac3 wrote:
I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?






reminder of the original post .


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 7:53 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


No I don't. I didn't notice such a difference when I began redpointing 5.11 and 5.12 I only felt a difference when I began redpointing 5.13. I have a friend who only noticed a difference when he began redpointing 5.14. Your distinction is your experience, which is fine, but it is realitive to where you began your climbing experience, who taught you to climb, who you climb with, and where you climb most often. Your colors show through every time.

anyway,

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there. Sure, if you have the money hire a kick ass personal trainer do it, but if not, pick a hard ass project and work it. I know this sounds risky, you might not send, but the experience will be worth it. It's all about learning how to link hard moves and rest.

I do partly agree with you.. in the sence that learning moves on easier climbing does not mean you can automatically use it on hard climbing. But the fact is.. when you can barely hold onto the wall, that is not the best time to actualy think and learn. That is the time where you need to try and engage moves that are already 100% dialled.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 8:25 PM
Post #65 of 70 (1333 views)
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners . . .

If you're right, then six decades of research into motor learning isn't. Guess where the smart money is.

Jay


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Re: [JoeHamilton] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Clumsy 5.14 footwork. What a concept! That must by Mr. Duttle you refer to, but I assure you, his footwork is no longer clumsy. In fact, I have never seen clumsy 5.13 foot work, is there a video of this I might be missing?


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Right right, that is why I said you need to be able to do at least some of the moves in-order for this to work.


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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No, but he will get more out of working routes that are hard for him than traversing in a gym. Nice edit, I was gonna point out he is not a beginner, that's why I said redpointing will develop fluidity where gym traversing will not. One of my many mistakes early on in climbing: traversing in the gym. What I wouldn't give to be able to take back all of those wasted hours!


unsunken


Aug 18, 2011, 12:51 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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I'm pretty much a beginner still but I'd just like to add that personally, I've found that climbing harder gym routes has improved my fluidity climbing easier ones. Because I'm neither tall nor strong, climbing harder routes means I'm forced to learn better technique that I can then internalize and apply to easier routes. I can't say it's the most efficient way timewise to become a smooth climber, but it's certainly more fun imho than putting abstract constraints on climbing.


ceebo


Aug 18, 2011, 12:56 PM
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Re: [unsunken] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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unsunken wrote:
I'm pretty much a beginner still but I'd just like to add that personally, I've found that climbing harder gym routes has improved my fluidity climbing easier ones. Because I'm neither tall nor strong, climbing harder routes means I'm forced to learn better technique that I can then internalize and apply to easier routes. I can't say it's the most efficient way timewise to become a smooth climber, but it's certainly more fun imho than putting abstract constraints on climbing.

Who said restrain?, i think you will find it is possible to do both.


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