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csproul


Aug 8, 2011, 9:43 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.

Work on your core is probably some of the weakest advice I have ever heard. When I sport climb, I like the routes to be really steep, but my core is never my point of failure. However, I can't even complete a single set of any pilates exercise or do more than a few reps on a captains chair. By all measurements, my "core" is fairly weak and has extremely poor endurance, but my feet never cut, even on really steep routes. Climbing strength is far too nebulous to be improved by "core" exercises.
No, no, no...gunkie is clearly correct. After all, he was able to diagnose the OP's problem from a single avatar picture. You just obviously just lack the extra special perceptive powers that enable him to make such recommendations from a single crappy photo.


gunkiemike


Aug 8, 2011, 10:45 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Was I talking to you?


johnwesely


Aug 8, 2011, 10:56 AM
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Re: [gunkiemike] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.


spikeddem


Aug 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
joemac3 wrote:
I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves.

You mean like in your avatar pic? That's some pretty sorry body control going on there.

I suspect what you may be missing is the core strength needed to stabilize your body during movement. Work on your core and see what happens.

Work on your core is probably some of the weakest advice I have ever heard. When I sport climb, I like the routes to be really steep, but my core is never my point of failure. However, I can't even complete a single set of any pilates exercise or do more than a few reps on a captains chair. By all measurements, my "core" is fairly weak and has extremely poor endurance, but my feet never cut, even on really steep routes. Climbing strength is far too nebulous to be improved by "core" exercises.

To be fair, feet cutting is, like, the MOST drastic symptom of failing to maintain tension. Even a two inch sag on a crux move can mean failure. Accordingly, a one inch sag over several moves can worsen a pump.

Edit: He may not be missing core strength, but perhaps core coordination.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 8, 2011, 11:34 AM)


gunkiemike


Aug 8, 2011, 2:32 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.


johnwesely


Aug 8, 2011, 7:42 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.


Learner


Aug 8, 2011, 8:13 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.


(This post was edited by Learner on Aug 8, 2011, 8:27 PM)


johnwesely


Aug 9, 2011, 6:03 AM
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Re: [Learner] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Learner wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.

To be honest, I really don't know that, but I do know that in terms of strength, I am much weaker than my peers who climb at a similar level. Maybe if I had a stronger core, my technique would be better, and I would climb harder. I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.


JoeHamilton


Aug 9, 2011, 6:46 AM
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Re: [joemac3] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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joemac3 wrote:
I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?


FEET, FEET, FEET. Please don't take this as a brag, but follow what I am going to attempt to say.
Now and again I will get a compliment on SMOOTHNESS, Graceful, Easy going, climbing. I am not a supper strong climber or boulderer. I'm just getting back into it and climbing maybe V.3 and tr around 5.10- 5..11. I LOVE to traverse, especially in the gym, the routes are always changing so the traverse does as well. I find also, if you slow your thinking down and just enjoy a grade or two lower then your limit you can use less strength and more technique. I personally like the meditation value in climbing, when all there is, is me and the rock, cars go quiet, the rustle of the leaves are quiet, the others at the crag or boulder are just chatter, and I am my focus is two to three moves ahead of me. It all = smoothness


(This post was edited by JoeHamilton on Aug 9, 2011, 6:47 AM)


ceebo


Aug 9, 2011, 9:14 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
Learner wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
Was I talking to you?

No, but this is a public forum, and it is not like I was attacking you or anything.

Sorry if I came off as harsh or offended (I'm not). It's just that you belittled my advice TO THE OP by saying that YOU don't have core problems. As someone who prefers steep climbs, I wouldn't expect you to have core issues.

And my comment was not based on the avatar at all - that's just something I noticed when I started my post, and I thought it was funny if not totally accurate - but an observation that comes from teaching literally hundreds of first-time climbers: weak climbers thrutch and stab at holds.

I didn't mean to say I don't have core problems. I meant to say that I have an extremely weak core, at least in terms of core exercises, and that doesn't manifest itself in my climbing in any noticeable way.
That's what you think.

How do you know that if your core were stronger, you wouldn't use better technique due to an increased ability to manipulate your center of gravity? How do you know that you wouldn't be able to climb harder? Maybe you're succeeding right now because of other strengths of yours, and your core is a weakness, that, if addressed, would result in considerable improvement.

I did notice that you posted "at least in terms of core exercises," so if the core movements in climbing in fact have little in common with the core exercises you are referring to, I would agree that they may do little to improve your climbing. Perhaps you use your core in both climbing and in the exercises, but in far different ways. This is not very likely with an exercise like leg raises, however. This particular movement involves pulling your legs up with your core in exactly the same way that you do on roofs and steep climbing, so there has to be carry over. However, your assumption may be true for other core (abs/oblique/lower back) exercises that are not so similar to movements in climbing.

To be honest, I really don't know that, but I do know that in terms of strength, I am much weaker than my peers who climb at a similar level. Maybe if I had a stronger core, my technique would be better, and I would climb harder. I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

I have to say, i do watch ALOT of new climbers and one thing for sure is that 1/3 of them have what i would define as severe core weakness on overhangs. It is also rather interesting that ''most'' of those who suffer from this are also on the side of being over weight.


vencido


Aug 9, 2011, 10:59 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.


petsfed


Aug 9, 2011, 4:18 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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All right, I tried the hips close thing and I won't change my mind. It is the case that you will spend a lot of time with your hips close to the wall if you have good technique. Its just that such a phenomenon is a consequence of good technique, not a cause.

Swivelling your hips, keeping the line of force parallel to the line of motion, finding the best body position for a hold, all of these will tend to keep your hips close in some situations, but they all work in all situations, whereas simply keeping your hips close can be downright counter-productive sometimes.


ceebo


Aug 9, 2011, 5:33 PM
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petsfed wrote:
All right, I tried the hips close thing and I won't change my mind. It is the case that you will spend a lot of time with your hips close to the wall if you have good technique. Its just that such a phenomenon is a consequence of good technique, not a cause.

Swivelling your hips, keeping the line of force parallel to the line of motion, finding the best body position for a hold, all of these will tend to keep your hips close in some situations, but they all work in all situations, whereas simply keeping your hips close can be downright counter-productive sometimes.

Their are obviusly limitations to what moves this drill can achieve efficiantly while staying within the 2 inches (or 6 if you like). But, imo.. as long as you analyze those bad moves as you climb, they help better define what feels right. It also helps you get confortable with climbing under limited range of movement conditions, hard micro edge climbs need that sort of skill, especialy the tiny sloper type moves. On such moves like that even having your head too far back off the wall can put enough extra outward force to peel you off the hold.

Keeping hips close is not a result of good technique. Just like not over gripping, its something you have to learn and then keep in check.

Need to find a new spell check btw, sorry for the bad spelling.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 9, 2011, 5:36 PM)


mr.tastycakes


Aug 10, 2011, 5:30 AM
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vencido wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.

+2. Using body tension is a skill; it's a matter of coordination, not strength.


ceebo


Aug 10, 2011, 7:10 AM
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
vencido wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just take issue with beginners being told to "work their core" like it is the biggest thing holding them back.

Exactly. Beginning and intermediate climbers don't need stronger core muscles any more than they need giant biceps.

It took me a LONG time to discover on my own what body tension really was and how to use it climbing. Being able to do strenuous gym "core" exercises wouldn't have taught me how to accomplish this any more than being really good at pull ups teaches you how to climb 5.12.

+2. Using body tension is a skill; it's a matter of coordination, not strength.

-2, it's both.


petsfed


Aug 10, 2011, 8:55 AM
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Well, provided you're in reasonably good shape to begin with, it isn't really necessary to do core specific exercises to improve as a climber, as it tends to develop on its own. However, as has been said, you do need to consciously develop that muscle coordination.

I think i've been looking at it wrong. You and I have some pretty divergent ideas about training. I've never found much use in exercises that didn't directly relate to my climbing, and if there was some exaggeration to any movement, it could be toned down as time went on. The exercises i've taught never included vague advice like "keep your hips close" because I could get the students to learn the ideas that lead to that (see above) via specific movement advice.

However, if your method gets the same results, great!


ceebo


Aug 10, 2011, 1:40 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Well, provided you're in reasonably good shape to begin with, it isn't really necessary to do core specific exercises to improve as a climber, as it tends to develop on its own. However, as has been said, you do need to consciously develop that muscle coordination.

I think i've been looking at it wrong. You and I have some pretty divergent ideas about training. I've never found much use in exercises that didn't directly relate to my climbing, and if there was some exaggeration to any movement, it could be toned down as time went on. The exercises i've taught never included vague advice like "keep your hips close" because I could get the students to learn the ideas that lead to that (see above) via specific movement advice.

However, if your method gets the same results, great!

Tbh i personally use it along with other things just to keep me entertained while doing those long ass endurance drills. You are also more likely past any significant gains that could be made other than general larger muscle endurance. But, try it with some students.. if they can not do it first then they have some technique learning and gains to be made. 6 inches is too easy btw.. but a good start level for the less able. Staying with in 2 inches for the hips chest and head should be the final target. I usually set them a distance of around 10M to complete.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 10, 2011, 1:46 PM)


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 1:26 PM
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Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless. If you want to be smooth, pick a route about a full number grade above your current redpoint that you can do some of the moves on. Keep working it. By the time you get it, you will be smoother than before. And seriously, for the good smooth moves you gotta eat prunes.


billcoe_


Aug 16, 2011, 2:11 PM
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Follow an old master. I was out the other day with a guy who had been climbing longer than me (I'm @ 40 years), He was so graceful and smooth. It helped me.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 3:04 PM
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essay wrote:
Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless. If you want to be smooth, pick a route about a full number grade above your current redpoint that you can do some of the moves on. Keep working it. By the time you get it, you will be smoother than before. And seriously, for the good smooth moves you gotta eat prunes.

Yes, doing long ass multi pitch is my goal.. but i do not recall reccomending long ass endurance to the op. You read wrong, ''home boy''.

Your idea of training smooth moves is to climb at limit?. Do you understand that he may still climb like shit, but just get stronger?. As in.. the plane is shaped like a brick.. don't fly so well... instead of taking it to the wind tunnel for some smooth aero dynamics, lets just give it 2 extra engines?. Fail logic is fail ''home boy''.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 3:11 PM
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essay wrote:
Long ass endurance drills are for people who only want to climb long ass endurance routes, otherwise they are pretty much worthless.

There are many benefits outside of long ass endurance routes that can be gained by doing long ass endurance drills. One of them is better recovery during shakeouts (heck, even between moves), and another is better recovery between routes. A third benefit is keeping a higher percentage of the climbing below the anaerobic theshold. This allows some people to recover where others may pump out. Not only can you recover in more places, but you can recover more quickly, too!


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 3:43 PM
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Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 3:56 PM
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essay wrote:
Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.

Looks like a case of agreeing to disagree, my man.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 4:06 PM
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essay wrote:
Nice analogy though it makes no sense, like so many of your spews. I am not a plane, and you would be junked by now because age if you were. Hey Home boy, better check your posse' I do understand you climb like shit, but if you are working something that much harder, it will force you to either improve or quit, your long ass endurance drills just teach old men to think too highly of themselves. I personally have been climbing too much endurance lately and trust me I am right. I probably couldn't pull A V10 now if my life depended on it, I am too weak from endurance. Endurance has negative side effects as well, like becoming a sissy and complacently climbing 5.12 the rest of your life.

You talk like a person who is still dreaming that they one day.. just one day.. may be the best in the world.

Tell ye what though, since your so bad ass. Join me in Scotland next year when i go to free solo ben nevis, i would love to see you piss in your pants on 5.10 climbing.. homey.


essay


Aug 16, 2011, 4:52 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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I'll piss on your face if you really want.

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