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ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 5:20 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
I'll piss on your face if you really want.

Not likely, since i would be climbing far above you. No offence, but you strike me as the kinde peroson who would rag another off the wall to save your own ass.


petsfed


Aug 16, 2011, 8:09 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Your idea of training smooth moves is to climb at limit?. Do you understand that he may still climb like shit, but just get stronger?. As in.. the plane is shaped like a brick.. don't fly so well... instead of taking it to the wind tunnel for some smooth aero dynamics, lets just give it 2 extra engines?. Fail logic is fail ''home boy''.

Well, the original intention of campusing was to improve endurance, in the sense that if you were so retardedly strong that V10 didn't put you over the anaerobic threshold, you wouldn't be pumped when you got to the hardest climbing.

Still, you don't become smooth by simply forcing yourself to get on harder moves. That is to say, you don't learn anything about efficiency (which is the heart and soul of "smooth" climbing) if you're above your limit, just how to power through it. If you already are an efficient climber, you may end up adding power to efficiency, but you won't learn new, more efficient techniques when you're fighting just to stay on.

This would be akin to telling a person that the best way to learn how to drive is to enter a street race. Sure, they may learn a lot about how lousy a driver they are, but unless they already have an idea of what to do right, all they'll learn is how unpleasant and counterproductive it can be do things wrong.


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:13 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Yea man, drive that course for a year, you don't think your driving will improve?

I said commit and work that climb, not get on it once and punt. So if I am going to use your analogy, I would say that you don't want to just enter a street race, you want to practice that course for a year or more and then enter the street race when you are ready. If the climb is that much harder you will not be able to muscle through it, a progression in your climbing must manifest in order for you to achieve success. Furthermore, I said make sure you can do some of the moves, othewise there is no point in getting on it. I love the idea that you can muscle through a climb that is so far above your level, it ain't gonna happen, that is why it is called your level.

If you do send that climb, you may be suprised to discover that you have just progressed your climbing level. Most likely you are now a smoother climber, because that is what happens when you progress as a climber, you become fluid. To adress your analogy again, Your racer won't learn shit about racing by taking long country drives. He may not want to enter the Daytona 500 either, but it has to be a race, not a county drive, in order to progress as a racer.


petsfed


Aug 17, 2011, 12:26 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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And if the stated goal is to simply learn how to drive? I said "learn how to drive", not "win races".

Let me be clear: if you're consistently climbing 5.12a and you start projecting a 5.13b, by the time you finally send you will have progressed as a climber, and will definitely be a smoother climber in the 12s.

But if you're climbing 5.10a and start projecting 5.12a (the gap is pretty similar in terms of doability of moves), you will have gotten stronger, but no better. You'll almost certainly be no smoother on 10s.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 12:34 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
And if the stated goal is to simply learn how to drive? I said "learn how to drive", not "win races".

Let me be clear: if you're consistently climbing 5.12a and you start projecting a 5.13b, by the time you finally send you will have progressed as a climber, and will definitely be a smoother climber in the 12s.

But if you're climbing 5.10a and start projecting 5.12a (the gap is pretty similar in terms of doability of moves), you will have gotten stronger, but no better. You'll almost certainly be no smoother on 10s.

Might I recommend agreeing to disagree with Essay? It's worked wonders for me.


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 12:35 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:00 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 4:40 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


No I don't. I didn't notice such a difference when I began redpointing 5.11 and 5.12 I only felt a difference when I began redpointing 5.13. I have a friend who only noticed a difference when he began redpointing 5.14. Your distinction is your experience, which is fine, but it is realitive to where you began your climbing experience, who taught you to climb, who you climb with, and where you climb most often. Your colors show through every time.

anyway,

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there. Sure, if you have the money hire a kick ass personal trainer do it, but if not, pick a hard ass project and work it. I know this sounds risky, you might not send, but the experience will be worth it. It's all about learning how to link hard moves and rest.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Re: [essay] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay


essay


Aug 17, 2011, 6:37 PM
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Re: [jt512] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace


petsfed


Aug 17, 2011, 7:20 PM
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essay wrote:
That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace

I believe the question was asked by a beginner.

And god forbid that training approaches change as you become a better climber and more clearly understand what your goals are. You don't get to be a 5.12 climber without learning some sort of smoothness, but I know plenty of 5.11 climbers who wouldn't know a cross-through from a crossed eye.

I would hate to be a beginner climbing with you, since you insist on the suffering start before the fun has.

Edit: nope, not a beginner, but somebody taking the first step towards improving as a climber. Still, a project at your limit requires that every climb at that level, not just the ones that aren't "your style", is stopping you. And I doubt that that's this fellow's problem.


(This post was edited by petsfed on Aug 17, 2011, 7:28 PM)


JoeHamilton


Aug 17, 2011, 7:47 PM
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essay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners, but if you don't want to peak-out at 5.12, you are gonna need to suffer a little more, physically and mentally.

peace



What is wrong with peaking out at 5.12? If your smooth fluid and graceful marking the climb look like a dance with romantic intentions with the rock. The point is the OP noticed his movement looked forced not smooth like his partners. It doesn't matter if they are 5.2 or 5.14, Clumsy forced movement is just that. FOOT WORK is what will make one look SMOOTH, TRAVERSING will do it , lots and lots of traversing in the gym where the holds change a lot do to the resetting of routes. Not staying low the ground, go up and down little holds big jugs, right to left, left to rite. try it for two weeks then go back to bouldering with the video camera again and see if your smoother. WORK THE FEET and LEGS, I think if the OP feels he has FORCED MOVEMENT it because he is already muscling up problems above his level, cause the arms let him.


JoeHamilton


Aug 17, 2011, 7:49 PM
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Re: [joemac3] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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joemac3 wrote:
I am new to this site but not to climbing. I was wondering the best way to achieve smoothness in my moves. I have seen myself climb and notice all my moves tend to look forced, like I am throwing to each hold and using strength not finesse to make my moves. It becomes very obvious when climbing with people who look more like they flow up the route rather than throw to each hold.

So any advice, things to practice, etc.?






reminder of the original post .


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 7:53 PM
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essay wrote:
ceebo wrote:
essay wrote:
and what evidence leads you to believe a climber pushing 5.10 is any different from a climber pushing 5.13. Both struggle, both suck at their own levels, why is the grade of 5.13 so significant?

Do you understand the differance in moves required to climb easier routes where holds are in abundence?. their is a clear transition stage (at least to me) that starts in the very late .11 and defo in the .12's where mvoes have less and less ways of being completed, or ''bypassed'' as i call it.

People on easier climbing for example.. may not know how to do a paticular move (say a high step) but because they have a jug hand hold.. off they go with a nice big smear. What has that taught them for a .12 high step where their hand hold is a negitive micro completely eliminating a smear?. Certainly did not teach them to lay off.. for added foot reach. If you even know what such a move is....


No I don't. I didn't notice such a difference when I began redpointing 5.11 and 5.12 I only felt a difference when I began redpointing 5.13. I have a friend who only noticed a difference when he began redpointing 5.14. Your distinction is your experience, which is fine, but it is realitive to where you began your climbing experience, who taught you to climb, who you climb with, and where you climb most often. Your colors show through every time.

anyway,

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there. Sure, if you have the money hire a kick ass personal trainer do it, but if not, pick a hard ass project and work it. I know this sounds risky, you might not send, but the experience will be worth it. It's all about learning how to link hard moves and rest.

I do partly agree with you.. in the sence that learning moves on easier climbing does not mean you can automatically use it on hard climbing. But the fact is.. when you can barely hold onto the wall, that is not the best time to actualy think and learn. That is the time where you need to try and engage moves that are already 100% dialled.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 8:25 PM
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essay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
essay wrote:

What was this thread about? Smooth moves. I believe that working projects will make you way smoother in your muscle movements technical execution, and mental processing than any other advice out there.

Which is weird, because your advice is about the worst I've heard on this subject. It's exactly the opposite of the truth. If you want to improve your movement skills, then you are best off doing your initial practice on terrain that is way below your limit. Then, as you begin to ingrain the new skills, gradually practice them on increasingly difficult routes.

Jay

That might work for beginners . . .

If you're right, then six decades of research into motor learning isn't. Guess where the smart money is.

Jay


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Re: [JoeHamilton] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Clumsy 5.14 footwork. What a concept! That must by Mr. Duttle you refer to, but I assure you, his footwork is no longer clumsy. In fact, I have never seen clumsy 5.13 foot work, is there a video of this I might be missing?


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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Right right, that is why I said you need to be able to do at least some of the moves in-order for this to work.


essay


Aug 18, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Smooth moves [In reply to]
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No, but he will get more out of working routes that are hard for him than traversing in a gym. Nice edit, I was gonna point out he is not a beginner, that's why I said redpointing will develop fluidity where gym traversing will not. One of my many mistakes early on in climbing: traversing in the gym. What I wouldn't give to be able to take back all of those wasted hours!


unsunken


Aug 18, 2011, 12:51 PM
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I'm pretty much a beginner still but I'd just like to add that personally, I've found that climbing harder gym routes has improved my fluidity climbing easier ones. Because I'm neither tall nor strong, climbing harder routes means I'm forced to learn better technique that I can then internalize and apply to easier routes. I can't say it's the most efficient way timewise to become a smooth climber, but it's certainly more fun imho than putting abstract constraints on climbing.


ceebo


Aug 18, 2011, 12:56 PM
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unsunken wrote:
I'm pretty much a beginner still but I'd just like to add that personally, I've found that climbing harder gym routes has improved my fluidity climbing easier ones. Because I'm neither tall nor strong, climbing harder routes means I'm forced to learn better technique that I can then internalize and apply to easier routes. I can't say it's the most efficient way timewise to become a smooth climber, but it's certainly more fun imho than putting abstract constraints on climbing.

Who said restrain?, i think you will find it is possible to do both.

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