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ceebo


Aug 15, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Weight lifting powder?
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This shit is full of protein and carbs, just wondering if anybody else has used it and if they think it is worth while?.


spikeddem


Aug 15, 2011, 3:54 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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There are too many powdered substances sold to weight lifters to know what you're referencing.

Many sources suggest after an intense day of anaerobic exercise (performance climbing or anaerobic climbing training, but probably not ARC) it is beneficial to have an easily digestible protein with a source of both complex and simple carbohydrates.

I have been experimenting for less than a week now with what I use to use in my weight lifting days. It consists of water, whey, maltodextrin, and dextrose. For information on it, read here. Depending on your electrolyte intake, you may choose to add salt.

Any kind of "supplement," is just that. A supplement. A healthy diet should serve as a solid back bone to any supplements you decide to use.

Finally, it is usually cheaper to make mixed powders on your own (i.e., buy the whey, maltodextrin, and dextrose separately). Doing so will also allow you to alter the ratios of whey:maltodextrin:dextrose as you see fit.


sungam


Aug 16, 2011, 3:48 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile


And Ceebo, there are tons of different powders sold to weight lifters. I mean tons. Some I can name off the top of my head:
Protein powder
recovery shakes
creatine MH
creatine EE
Nitrious oxide
N.O. Xplode
carb shakes
CLA

?


rtwilli4


Aug 16, 2011, 4:03 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

What I try to do is take some leftover chicken breast and pasta to the gym w/ me so I can eat right after I cool down.

Seriously though, if you are really looking into suppliments, it would be worth meticulously disecting your diet before hand. There is no reason to spend a bunch of money on suppliments if your diet is fucked up. 90% of the world could eat healthier without spending any more money than they already do...


sungam


Aug 16, 2011, 4:07 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Hey dude, have I given you my non-fat chocolate milk rant yet? The illest of cheap post workout nutrition!!


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 7:23 AM
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sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix?

Dextrose = Glucose


sungam


Aug 16, 2011, 7:33 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix?

Dextrose = Glucose
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LaughLaughLaughLaugh

Duh! I was thinking Maltose. hehe.

Edit to add: And maltodextrine is fast release as well.

I hereby submit my temporary retirement from using long words without getting confruzed.


(This post was edited by sungam on Aug 16, 2011, 7:45 AM)


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 7:34 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 7:43 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

What I try to do is take some leftover chicken breast and pasta to the gym w/ me so I can eat right after I cool down.

Seriously though, if you are really looking into suppliments, it would be worth meticulously disecting your diet before hand. There is no reason to spend a bunch of money on suppliments if your diet is fucked up. 90% of the world could eat healthier without spending any more money than they already do...

30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 16, 2011, 7:47 AM)


sungam


Aug 16, 2011, 7:50 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 8:09 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 8:15 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 8:24 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 9:03 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 16, 2011, 3:27 PM)


shimanilami


Aug 16, 2011, 3:40 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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From my perspective, the real advantage of the powder mixes is that I can keep them in the trunk of my car or under my desk at work. I'd love it if I had the free time to cook a nutritious, tasty meal for before and after each workout, but I don't. I do have time, however, to dump of couple of scoops into a Nalgene, shake it up, and slam it down. It's not as enjoyable as a real meal, but it beats going hungry or hypoglycemic, to be sure.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 3:55 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

If you're not trying to lose weight, there's no need to keep such meticulous records. When trying to lose weight, I concern myself with both quality AND quantity. If wasn't worry about weight (your situation), then I'd only be worried about quality. That's what I'm saying.

If you're already saying it benefits you 20%, then I'm not really sure why you asked your question. You seem to have already decided the answer.


damienclimber


Aug 16, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.

You have in all figured out ! clever.


spikeddem


Aug 16, 2011, 5:07 PM
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damienclimber wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.

You have in all figured out ! clever.

Also, today when I was looking at my excel file, I noticed that the cost for 23 grams of protein from chicken is $1.00 worth of chicken, whereas it is $0.64 worth of whey.


ceebo


Aug 16, 2011, 5:17 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

If you're not trying to lose weight, there's no need to keep such meticulous records. When trying to lose weight, I concern myself with both quality AND quantity. If wasn't worry about weight (your situation), then I'd only be worried about quality. That's what I'm saying.

If you're already saying it benefits you 20%, then I'm not really sure why you asked your question. You seem to have already decided the answer.

Yes, but im open to the idea i may be kidding myself on that.. to not feel like i wasted 20 quid, and thats why i asked for others who use it to comment.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 1:59 AM
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Something weird is going on, you came off of the file list as well?

Oh well.

*plonk*


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 3:07 AM
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Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:43 AM
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sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 17, 2011, 4:52 AM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 4:54 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.


(This post was edited by sungam on Aug 17, 2011, 5:02 AM)


styndall


Aug 17, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?


rtwilli4


Aug 17, 2011, 8:16 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.

You're right in that the drinks aren't too expensive when you break it down per drink. But I cook dinner for 4 every night, I eat two servings, my wife eats a small one and I take the leftovers to work or the gym the next day. I like getting my meat and produce from the local market instead of the store, and save a TON of money if I buy 4 servings worth of food instead of two or three. Also, this saves me from eating out for lunch, which is a large expense if you do it more than once a week.

So my thinking is that I get a pretty healthy snack/lunch during the day and then a large healthy dinner without having to spend that extra 30 pounds a month.

I will admit though that earlier this year there was a 50% off sale on protein powder so I bought some. If you're are getting proper nutrition from your meals, and extra dose of protein is probably a good thing.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:20 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [styndall] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?
Sure does! Smile
The rate of blood sugar-> glycogen is doubled during the 40 minutes directly after exercise. A nice big load of simple carbs is the shizz! and where I said "sacharides" I meant "disachiarrides" like maltose, so just slightly slower release then the glucose.

Some people prefer more protein, but I honestly don't think that climbing uses that many large muscles, and so the amount of protein needed isn't really huge. There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport, so there may not be a huge difference between dietary protein and protein taken in a PWO shake. There is evidence that small amounts of protein added to sports drinks increases performance and recovery, though, which is why I want at least some protein.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 9:23 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.

Hardly made up. Considering 2 days ago i had a performance day at the crag, then an hour later was at my gym (for work, but was quite). We climbed 21 routes each in a few hours, withough a single failure. 3 of the routes being 7a's and the rest in range of 6b to 6c. The energy came form somewhere sherlock.. and it was not from the coffee and smoke before session.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:33 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.

I will do, thnx allot for the help. Btw, i really want to get out on ben nevis for some multi pitch at the earliest opertunity. Have you been their?.. whats it like if so, you interested in being a guide for me/us when we arrive?.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 17, 2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.

Hardly made up. Considering 2 days ago i had a performance day at the crag, then an hour later was at my gym (for work, but was quite). We climbed 21 routes each in a few hours, withough a single failure. 3 of the routes being 7a's and the rest in range of 6b to 6c. The energy came form somewhere sherlock.. and it was not from the coffee and smoke before session.


By no means did I intend to imply that your performance gains didn't exist. Just pointing out that a number like 20% can only be used to mean that there was an exact before and after measurement.

At least if you want to be jay-esque.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 1:21 PM
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Re: [styndall] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 17, 2011, 1:27 PM)


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 1:42 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 2:10 PM
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You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 2:13 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.
Yea basically, maltodextrin in its undigested form is usually >3glucose molecules bound together, but they all count as 1 unit in terms of molarity. They don't get broken down in the stomach due to lack of enzymes until they reach the intestines, at which point they essentially digest to glucose almost immediately.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 2:15 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.
Yea basically, maltodextrin in its undigested form is usually >3glucose molecules bound together, but they all count as 1 unit in terms of molarity. They don't get broken down in the stomach due to lack of enzymes until they reach the intestines, at which point they essentially digest to glucose almost immediately.

Alright that was my understanding. Sneaky sneaky.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 2:21 PM
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ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 3:18 PM
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.

Ok so.. for example, i make a bowl of just pasta. That is just a simple carb meal?, what food needs added to make it complex carb. I allways read labels but all i ever see is carb: xxx of wich sugar: xxx. So as far as i could gather, its all the same shit.. just some food has more of it.


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 3:34 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.

Ok so.. for example, i make a bowl of just pasta. That is just a simple carb meal?, what food needs added to make it complex carb. I allways read labels but all i ever see is carb: xxx of wich sugar: xxx. So as far as i could gather, its all the same shit.. just some food has more of it.
Pasta is usually complex carbs actually, ie starches


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 3:56 PM
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jt512 wrote:
sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.
Hey, thanks Jay! I was hoping to find some more out on this subject, I just hadn't gotten around to checking it out. I'll read that paper in the morning, If it's available online without subscription..


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 3:57 PM
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.

I will do, thnx allot for the help. Btw, i really want to get out on ben nevis for some multi pitch at the earliest opertunity. Have you been their?.. whats it like if so, you interested in being a guide for me/us when we arrive?.
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:06 PM
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In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 6:11 PM
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sungam wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.
Hey, thanks Jay! I was hoping to find some more out on this subject, I just hadn't gotten around to checking it out. I'll read that paper in the morning, If it's available online without subscription..

Check your rc.com email.


sungam


Aug 18, 2011, 2:17 AM
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ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!


ceebo


Aug 18, 2011, 4:57 AM
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!

Looks like nevis is a let down then ;[. As i said i gotte buy some trad gear, and i need new shoes aswell. After that i will be able to spare the cash and head up their for some super secret bouldering ;p. I don't know what choss is?, sounds like something you unwillingly eat when you face plant the floor.


sungam


Aug 18, 2011, 5:10 AM
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!

Looks like nevis is a let down then ;[. As i said i gotte buy some trad gear, and i need new shoes aswell. After that i will be able to spare the cash and head up their for some super secret bouldering ;p. I don't know what choss is?, sounds like something you unwillingly eat when you face plant the floor.
Choss = bad rock. There is some good rock in there as well, though.

There are 400m routes (like "The Long Climb") that are graded rock routes. Most of the routes are shorter, but not short. IIt is definitely not a letdown, the place is rad. There are lots of other rad places in the area, too. Do you know about Bouchaille Etive Mhor? Or Annoch dubh? Tons of fantastic hills up there!
We are getting way off topic, though. Time to move to PM.


Tab5crux


Aug 18, 2011, 10:17 AM
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Take multivitamin in addition then maybe you can get away with your current diet


spikeddem


Aug 18, 2011, 10:50 AM
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Tab5crux wrote:
Take multivitamin in addition then maybe you can get away with your current diet

A multivitamin is a supplement, too. It should have the same backbone.


Tab5crux


Aug 18, 2011, 10:56 AM
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Only speaking in context of how to easily supplement his current diet without drastically changing it.

hey spike, ever think of becoming a teacher if you aren't already?


spikeddem


Aug 18, 2011, 11:08 AM
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Re: [Tab5crux] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Tab5crux wrote:
Only speaking in context of how to easily supplement his current diet without drastically changing it.

hey spike, ever think of becoming a teacher if you aren't already?

Ahhh.

Teach for America wouldn't have me. So I'm in grad school instead Tongue


Tab5crux


Aug 18, 2011, 11:29 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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How about a supplement for your supplement idea then?


spikeddem


Aug 18, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Re: [Tab5crux] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Tab5crux wrote:
How about a supplement for your supplement idea then?
I don't follow. What do you mean?


Tab5crux


Aug 18, 2011, 12:19 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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When you work out you use up more than just simple sugars you intend to replace with the powders. Since your body work optimally with a whole slew of nutrients and vitamins why not just supplement your powder supplement with a multivitamin supplement so that you get the max recovery and build you possibly can?


I may be just ranting fyi


sungam


Aug 18, 2011, 2:08 PM
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Re: [Tab5crux] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Tab5crux wrote:
When you work out you use up more than just simple sugars you intend to replace with the powders. Since your body work optimally with a whole slew of nutrients and vitamins why not just supplement your powder supplement with a multivitamin supplement so that you get the max recovery and build you possibly can?


I may be just ranting fyi
The post workout shake needs the simple carbs to tend to the blood sugar situation brought on by the exercise. The other nutrients can be gotten from your diet. No need to take them in the shake.

If you mean someone should make something that gives you all those nutrients in one easy to consume form, meal replacement bars to a pretty good job of this, but nothing is as good as a good balanced diet.


noahfor


Sep 2, 2011, 3:37 PM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Post work out shakes are completely unnecessary.

"Effect of Protein-Supplement Timing on Strength, Power, and Body-Composition Changes in Resistance-Trained Men

The effect of 10 wk of protein-supplement timing on strength, power, and body composition was examined in 33 resistance-trained men. Participants were randomly assigned to a protein supplement either provided in the morning and evening (n = 13) or provided immediately before and immediately after workouts (n = 13). In addition, 7 participants agreed to serve as a control group and did not use any protein or other nutritional supplement. During each testing session participants were assessed for strength (one-repetition-maximum [1RM] bench press and squat), power (5 repetitions performed at 80% of 1RM in both the bench press and the squat), and body composition. A significant main effect for all 3 groups in strength improvement was seen in 1RM bench press (120.6 20.5 kg vs. 125.4 16.7 at Week 0 and Week 10 testing, respectively) and 1RM squat (154.5 28.4 kg vs. 169.0 25.5 at Week 0 and Week 10 testing, respectively). However, no significant between-groups interactions were seen in 1RM squat or 1RM bench press. Significant main effects were also seen in both upper and lower body peak and mean power, but no significant differences were seen between groups. No changes in body mass or percent body fat were seen in any of the groups. Results indicate that the time of protein-supplement ingestion in resistance-trained athletes during a 10-wk training program does not provide any added benefit to strength, power, or body-composition changes."


sungam


Sep 3, 2011, 12:58 AM
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Re: [noahfor] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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noahfor wrote:
Post work out shakes are completely unnecessary.

"Effect of Protein-Supplement Timing on Strength, Power, and Body-Composition Changes in Resistance-Trained Men

The effect of 10 wk of protein-supplement timing on strength, power, and body composition was examined in 33 resistance-trained men.
Hey dude, protein shakes are not what we are talking about. We already clarified that we are talking about carb shakes with relitively small amounts of protein, which have been shown time and time again to have a beneficial effect on glycogen levels and muscle recovery in general.


noahfor


Sep 3, 2011, 9:26 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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glycogen levels and muscle recovery for more climbing in the same day or early the next day, or just in general?


sungam


Sep 4, 2011, 2:32 AM
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Re: [noahfor] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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noahfor wrote:
glycogen levels and muscle recovery for more climbing in the same day or early the next day, or just in general?
Well, a PWO shake is generally for the next day, but if you are taking a long break (>2 hours) then it can be between sessions. If the break was shorter then that I would use something less concentrated that would leave the stomach faster, such as a dilute high-glucose sports drink.

The muscle recovery is slightly longer term, but a good PWO shake will help speed things up in any time frame.


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