Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.

Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts probably not a great choice either.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.

Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.

There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport. . . .

Hardly made up. Considering 2 days ago i had a performance day at the crag, then an hour later was at my gym (for work, but was quite). We climbed 21 routes each in a few hours, withough a single failure. 3 of the routes being 7a's and the rest in range of 6b to 6c. The energy came form somewhere sherlock.. and it was not from the coffee and smoke before session.

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.

Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.

Yea basically, maltodextrin in its undigested form is usually >3glucose molecules bound together, but they all count as 1 unit in terms of molarity. They don't get broken down in the stomach due to lack of enzymes until they reach the intestines, at which point they essentially digest to glucose almost immediately.

You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them .

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. .

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.

Ok so.. for example, i make a bowl of just pasta. That is just a simple carb meal?, what food needs added to make it complex carb. I allways read labels but all i ever see is carb: xxx of wich sugar: xxx. So as far as i could gather, its all the same shit.. just some food has more of it.

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.

I will do, thnx allot for the help. Btw, i really want to get out on ben nevis for some multi pitch at the earliest opertunity. Have you been their?.. whats it like if so, you interested in being a guide for me/us when we arrive?.

To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Hey, thanks Jay! I was hoping to find some more out on this subject, I just hadn't gotten around to checking it out. I'll read that paper in the morning, If it's available online without subscription..

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.

Check your rc.com email.

Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


Thanks a bunch!

Looks like nevis is a let down then ;[. As i said i gotte buy some trad gear, and i need new shoes aswell. After that i will be able to spare the cash and head up their for some super secret bouldering ;p. I don't know what choss is?, sounds like something you unwillingly eat when you face plant the floor.