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styndall


Aug 17, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?


rtwilli4


Aug 17, 2011, 8:16 AM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
I'm generally too poor to buy that kind of stuff but I suppose if you'd rather spend money on protien powder than road trips then go right ahead.

Seems like a false dichotomy to me.

Each drink I have costs me exactly $1.00 to make. A can of tuna has about an equivalent amount of protein, and pasta may be another $0.10. Where I live, that amounts to about $0.89, a difference of $0.11. That difference is only on like 3-4 days out of the week. In a year, you'll save $20.02. Is $20.02 the difference between going on a trip and not? Not even close.

You're right in that the drinks aren't too expensive when you break it down per drink. But I cook dinner for 4 every night, I eat two servings, my wife eats a small one and I take the leftovers to work or the gym the next day. I like getting my meat and produce from the local market instead of the store, and save a TON of money if I buy 4 servings worth of food instead of two or three. Also, this saves me from eating out for lunch, which is a large expense if you do it more than once a week.

So my thinking is that I get a pretty healthy snack/lunch during the day and then a large healthy dinner without having to spend that extra 30 pounds a month.

I will admit though that earlier this year there was a 50% off sale on protein powder so I bought some. If you're are getting proper nutrition from your meals, and extra dose of protein is probably a good thing.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:20 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [styndall] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?
Sure does! Smile
The rate of blood sugar-> glycogen is doubled during the 40 minutes directly after exercise. A nice big load of simple carbs is the shizz! and where I said "sacharides" I meant "disachiarrides" like maltose, so just slightly slower release then the glucose.

Some people prefer more protein, but I honestly don't think that climbing uses that many large muscles, and so the amount of protein needed isn't really huge. There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport, so there may not be a huge difference between dietary protein and protein taken in a PWO shake. There is evidence that small amounts of protein added to sports drinks increases performance and recovery, though, which is why I want at least some protein.


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 9:23 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:31 AM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.

Hardly made up. Considering 2 days ago i had a performance day at the crag, then an hour later was at my gym (for work, but was quite). We climbed 21 routes each in a few hours, withough a single failure. 3 of the routes being 7a's and the rest in range of 6b to 6c. The energy came form somewhere sherlock.. and it was not from the coffee and smoke before session.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 9:33 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.

I will do, thnx allot for the help. Btw, i really want to get out on ben nevis for some multi pitch at the earliest opertunity. Have you been their?.. whats it like if so, you interested in being a guide for me/us when we arrive?.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Aug 17, 2011, 12:09 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
30 pound a month (although mine was only 20) for 2 drinks per day is not what i would call expensive. For example, buying only 1 sports drink per day at 1.20 amounts to allot more.

http://www.customisedsupplements.com/...asp?c=24&p=12624

Im not too sure if this is the right kind of drink. I will be putting on some muscle with the campusing so i figured this drink would be ideal for that phase. WIll suck to be wrong.. since ive been using it for 2 weeks. On the other hand, i fart every minute now ;p.. hopefully thats a sign of a good thing.
Are you using the shake on rest days, or just post workout?

I work allot and use a damn lot of energy before i even step onto a wall. So yes, i use it every day along with what ever food i have the time to ram down my throat between jobs.

Based upon this, I'd get rid of the supplements and square away your diet. Aren't you an apprentice of flesh? You know he'd say you need to square away your diet, too.

No, i'm an apprentice of jay actually. I have not used spell check for some 10 posts now. He has either gave up on me Mad or my spelling has drastically improved to the point where he let's it slide Cool.

Ehh.. besides, i could not get over 8% body fat even if i tried. Diet for me is a simple matter of ''does it have carbs in it''.. yes, ''eat it''.

I'm not talking about losing weight. I'm talking about eating right. Your last sentence clearly shows you do not. Therefore, your supplements won't be as beneficial as they could be.

Spike, tbph m8 i can not be fucking arsed to stick to the kinda diets the likes of you and flesh can. Like when you said my training plan took all the fun out of climbing.. to me, being that maticuless about what i eat does the same.

Btw for the small effort it takes to mix a glass of milk with some powder.. even if it only benifits me 5%, im happy to pay 20 a month for that. Judging from the peak in my stamina lately it feels more like 20%.

A true apprentice of jay doesn't make up percentages.

Hardly made up. Considering 2 days ago i had a performance day at the crag, then an hour later was at my gym (for work, but was quite). We climbed 21 routes each in a few hours, withough a single failure. 3 of the routes being 7a's and the rest in range of 6b to 6c. The energy came form somewhere sherlock.. and it was not from the coffee and smoke before session.


By no means did I intend to imply that your performance gains didn't exist. Just pointing out that a number like 20% can only be used to mean that there was an exact before and after measurement.

At least if you want to be jay-esque.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 1:21 PM
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Re: [styndall] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.


(This post was edited by spikeddem on Aug 17, 2011, 1:27 PM)


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 1:42 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 2:10 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 2:13 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.
Yea basically, maltodextrin in its undigested form is usually >3glucose molecules bound together, but they all count as 1 unit in terms of molarity. They don't get broken down in the stomach due to lack of enzymes until they reach the intestines, at which point they essentially digest to glucose almost immediately.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 2:15 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
styndall wrote:
sungam wrote:
Just out of curiosity, Spike, is there a reason you prefer not to have a very high GI carb like glucose in your mix? My "dream" post workout shake would be 4:1 carbs to protein with a quarter of the carbs as glucose, 2 quarters as saccharides, and a quarter as poly saccharides. And it would be chocolate flavored Smile

What's the reason for all the carbohydrate? Does it speed recovery or some such?

After an anaerobic workout (weight lifting, sprinting, 4x4) the body has decreased levels of glycogen and glucose in the blood. Anyone familiar with diabetes knows that the hormone "insulin" is affected by glucose and glycogen levels. Insulin is anabolic, and will help a weight-lifter (or climber) build muscle, if the subject provides their body the proper nutrients (at the proper time!). Insulin has a counterpart: Cortisol. Cortisol is catabolic. It encourages the body to breakdown muscle tissue to convert proteins into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

After a workout, when your glucose and glycogen levels are low, cortisol levels rise and insulin levels fall. This isn't the environment we want.

A sudden influx of rapidly digestible carbohydrates (and proteins too, actually) will spike insulin levels and lower cortisol levels. With the resulting muscle-building environment, the body will be looking for protein to restore muscles broken down during the workout. A combination of protein and carbohydrates together lead to more effective results than either on its own.

Now, Sungam and I have both mentioned having different types of carbohydrates in our drinks. I choose to use just two (glucose, or as I have been referring to it in this thread, "dextrose") and maltodextrin. The dextrose will be readily absorbed and quickly spike insulin levels. The maltodextrin, on the other hand, will need to be digested by the body before it will effect glucose/glycogen levels. Using these two in combinations, I can get both an immediate effect, as well as a lingering effect to maintain elevated levels of insulin while my body recovers. I have the two carbs in a 50:50 ratio.

Note: Insulin sensitivity refers to the amount of insulin released relative to glucose levels. It's like addiction to cocaine. A smaller response is elicited by people who regularly use cocaine, so they need more. Therefore, if you're having lots of High GI carbs (quickly digestible...candy, soda, etc) during the day, you'll see less of an effect from your PWO (post-workout) carbohydrate consumption.

As far as the actual amount (the ratio of carb:protein), well it can be altered to suit your needs. Right now my shake contains 16.6 grams of dextrose, 16.6 grams of maltodextrin, and 23 grams of protein. As carbs:protein, that is about 3:2. That said, I'm currently dieting down. Once I'm not trying to lose weight, I will probably bump it up to 2:1. These numbers aren't set in stone. It's good to experiment.

Edit: This is the bodybuilder mentality. A climbing workout will be targeting a smaller part of the body. Thus, like Sungam said, we can likely get away with smaller amounts of each than bodybuilders use. That's something I'll be experimenting with eventually.
Just to clarify this isn't really true. Maltodextrin gets broken down to dextrose relatively quickly in the small intestine, the reason for mixing the two is the keep a low osmolarity to speed gastric emptying.

Ahh. Thanks for pointing this out. I misunderstood this.

For those that are curious, osmolarity is a measure of the concentration of particles that contribute to a solution's osmotic pressure. Research suggests that the lower the osmolarity of a given drink, the quicker the drink will be passed to the intestines to be absorbed. In the case of just maltodextrin and dextrose, dextrose has a higher osmotic value and maltodextrin has a lower osmotic value. They both can be quickly digested, but maltodextrin will help lower the osmolarity.

Why not just use maltodextrin? Well, a study (cited at bottom) found that having two substrates (malto+dextrose, for example) as opposed to just one (malto) resulted in increased absorption in the small intestine.

redlude97, I just learned about all that before posting. Is it an accurate description of what's going on?


Shi, X., et al. Effects of carbohydrate type and concentration and solution osmolality on water absorption. Med.Sci. Sports Exerc.,
27:1607.1995.
Yea basically, maltodextrin in its undigested form is usually >3glucose molecules bound together, but they all count as 1 unit in terms of molarity. They don't get broken down in the stomach due to lack of enzymes until they reach the intestines, at which point they essentially digest to glucose almost immediately.

Alright that was my understanding. Sneaky sneaky.


spikeddem


Aug 17, 2011, 2:21 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.

Ok so.. for example, i make a bowl of just pasta. That is just a simple carb meal?, what food needs added to make it complex carb. I allways read labels but all i ever see is carb: xxx of wich sugar: xxx. So as far as i could gather, its all the same shit.. just some food has more of it.


redlude97


Aug 17, 2011, 3:34 PM
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ceebo wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
ceebo wrote:
You know..... it is times like this i wish i was just a fisherman by hobby. It's all so simple for them Crazy.

So spike, their are 2 types of carbs?. Unsure.

Plenty of climbers climb just fine without knowing any of this stuff. You know, like, 99% of them. haha

As for your question, consider legos. Think of a simple sugar (say, glucose) as a lego. Legos can be combined together to form more complicated structures. Each lego could be considered what's called a monomer. Think of it like a building block. Monomers combine to form polymers (think of this as a castle made of legos). Therefore, we can combine simple carbs into branched chains of carbs. These would be called complex carbs.

It's worth noting that BOTH complex and simple carbs can have high GI ratings (meaning they are digested quickly). Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it's digested slowly.

Ok so.. for example, i make a bowl of just pasta. That is just a simple carb meal?, what food needs added to make it complex carb. I allways read labels but all i ever see is carb: xxx of wich sugar: xxx. So as far as i could gather, its all the same shit.. just some food has more of it.
Pasta is usually complex carbs actually, ie starches


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 3:56 PM
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jt512 wrote:
sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.
Hey, thanks Jay! I was hoping to find some more out on this subject, I just hadn't gotten around to checking it out. I'll read that paper in the morning, If it's available online without subscription..


sungam


Aug 17, 2011, 3:57 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Hey Ceebo, my man, can you give us a quick rundown on what you usually eat?

We aren't telling you to go crackhead out and eat that nasty kale shit that (I think it was flesh) was nomming on a while back.

So, what do you usually eat in a day?

What ever i can. Yesterday i had

Morning - cornflakes
Afternoone - a twix Laugh
Tea time - pizza
Night time - mince and dumplins with veg and so

I do usually have dinner, just not that day.
Well, not ideal. Try switching out your cornflakes for some of that nummy musli shit with fruit and nuts in it, or something. Just get something in that first meal other then carbs and salt.

Try to get some fruit in there, too. Some fruit juice or smoothy maybe? Tesco usually has pretty good deals on their smoothies compared to the "innocent"ones. If you just have time for a quick bar in the afternoon, check out deep blue nutrition (or other sites) on the net, they got some reasonable prices on meal replacement bars that have pretty decent levels of vitamins and minerals in them. Maybe get some dried fruit/nut mix on the go or something?

Nutrition isn't just about carb/fat/protein ratios. There is a slew of essential minerals and vitamins that your muscles and the rest of your body need to perform at their optimum level.


Edit to add: Ceebo, I have the impression you live in the UK. Am I right? Otherwise a lot of that ^ advice is kinda useless.

I'm allergic to nuts so unfortunately allot of the good cereals and bars are off limits. I don't know a great deal about nutrition and what is good or bad food. For the most part i don't know where to begin other than food that has high carb and protein count. My fruit diet consists of nothing but yogurts Laugh probably not a great choice either.
Hit up those smoothies for some fruit action.

If you want a huge load of easily digested (pun intended) information, check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glen Cardwell, published by Human Kinetics.

I will do, thnx allot for the help. Btw, i really want to get out on ben nevis for some multi pitch at the earliest opertunity. Have you been their?.. whats it like if so, you interested in being a guide for me/us when we arrive?.
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.


ceebo


Aug 17, 2011, 4:06 PM
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In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.


jt512


Aug 17, 2011, 6:11 PM
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Re: [sungam] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sungam wrote:
There is also a complete lack of evidence (as far as I know) implying that protein uptake is accelerated directly after sport....

There is evidence. For instance, see:

Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Postexercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in humans. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 May;34(5):828-37.
Hey, thanks Jay! I was hoping to find some more out on this subject, I just hadn't gotten around to checking it out. I'll read that paper in the morning, If it's available online without subscription..

Check your rc.com email.


sungam


Aug 18, 2011, 2:17 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!


ceebo


Aug 18, 2011, 4:57 AM
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sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!

Looks like nevis is a let down then ;[. As i said i gotte buy some trad gear, and i need new shoes aswell. After that i will be able to spare the cash and head up their for some super secret bouldering ;p. I don't know what choss is?, sounds like something you unwillingly eat when you face plant the floor.


sungam


Aug 18, 2011, 5:10 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Weight lifting powder? [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
sungam wrote:
ceebo wrote:
In reply to:
To be honest I have only winter climbed on the Ben, it's a long walk for climbing not much bigger then in the Coe or similar, but if you want to get on something I am down. I have fancied Centurion and Minus One Face for a while.

Isn't their a 400m multi pitch on nevis?.. really had my heart set on it ;[. Or is it including part hiking?.

Anyway, if not im happy to do some other multi pitch. For the past few month iv'e been slacking and using friends gear. Soon as i get my own shit sorted out ill be heading your way. Hopefully before the bad weather sets in ;/.
Not sure of the route lengths, but there are some pretty sizable routes. The really long one is probably Tower Ridge, or one of the other ridges. They are all hard scrambles with maybe a pitch or two of Diff in them.

If you come up an the conditions are right, you might get lucky and get to see my super secret new bouldering area I am develuping Wink (Warning: May contain choss and horrendous landings).


jt512 wrote:
Check your rc.com email.
Thanks a bunch!

Looks like nevis is a let down then ;[. As i said i gotte buy some trad gear, and i need new shoes aswell. After that i will be able to spare the cash and head up their for some super secret bouldering ;p. I don't know what choss is?, sounds like something you unwillingly eat when you face plant the floor.
Choss = bad rock. There is some good rock in there as well, though.

There are 400m routes (like "The Long Climb") that are graded rock routes. Most of the routes are shorter, but not short. IIt is definitely not a letdown, the place is rad. There are lots of other rad places in the area, too. Do you know about Bouchaille Etive Mhor? Or Annoch dubh? Tons of fantastic hills up there!
We are getting way off topic, though. Time to move to PM.

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