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Danx
Sep 8, 2011, 9:14 PM
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Rudmin
Sep 8, 2011, 9:17 PM
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It depends what you are talking about.
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Danx
Sep 8, 2011, 9:24 PM
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Rudmin
Sep 8, 2011, 9:47 PM
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Danx wrote: Rudmin wrote: It depends what you are talking about. For example: You have 3 nut/sling placements. Then tie fig 8/clove hitch in a piece of static rope to the first placement, thread the rope through the 2nd caribiner and tie the 3rd caribiner with a fig 8/clove hitch. Pull all the strands equal and tie an overhand knot to form the master point. Just wondered for the first and third caribiners, why you would ever use a fig 8?
I don't know of anybody that would use that method or carry an unknotted strand of static rope. I can say that I would be kind of worried about a short tail of rope near a hitch.
edit: not to say that there is anything wrong with it, I'm just not that familiar. If it were me, I would have already tied a figure-eight in either end of the rope, I guess that is one reason to do it that way. But mostly I think, people are generally uncomfortable with having an anchor that would fall apart if the end slipped through the clove hitch. And if your rope is thick or especially stiff and not tightened down hard, it may slip more easily.
(This post was edited by Rudmin on Sep 8, 2011, 10:14 PM)
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Danx
Sep 8, 2011, 10:27 PM
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mikebee
Sep 8, 2011, 10:31 PM
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The first thought I have is that the clove hitch shouldn't be used as an end knot, as it can slip and loosen under cyclical loading. A fig 8 (well tied), will not. This is why we tie in with a fig 8.
The second thought I have is that in the anchor you describe, the adjustability and equalisation comes from where you drag the ends together and tie the overhand, not from where the rope attached to the anchor.
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Danx
Sep 8, 2011, 10:52 PM
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Rudmin
Sep 9, 2011, 12:18 AM
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Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security.
A stopper knott like a figure 8? Anyways, my dog has untied a clove hitch on his leash before just by just tugging on it a whole lot, so it's by no means guaranteed.
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ceebo
Sep 9, 2011, 12:53 AM
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Double bow/clove and tripple bow instead of bunny. Danger.. i died doing this.
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Danx
Sep 9, 2011, 6:44 AM
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jt512
Sep 9, 2011, 7:07 AM
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Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security.
Please stop posting. There is no point in writing a post if you can't write intelligibly.
Jay
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Danx
Sep 9, 2011, 7:17 AM
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jt512
Sep 9, 2011, 7:24 AM
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Danx wrote: jt512 wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. Please stop posting. There is no point in writing a post if you can't write intelligibly. Jay Why do you even bother looking in this section... All you seem to do is flame people from what I have seen other than helping with questions. Surely the "beginner" section is for asking questions. Thanks to the other's who have replied and been helpful.
If you can't write the question in a manner that is understandable, then what is the point of writing the question?
Jay
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Danx
Sep 9, 2011, 4:35 PM
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ceebo
Sep 9, 2011, 4:46 PM
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I miss the days when jay use to bait me into flames ;{. What did i do wrong?.. don't you love me anymore? /sad face.
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mikebarter387
Sep 9, 2011, 5:19 PM
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This may never happen again but I am with Jay on this one.
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Danx
Sep 9, 2011, 5:36 PM
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csproul
Sep 9, 2011, 5:49 PM
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Danx wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: This may never happen again but I am with Jay on this one. Whether you are with him on this one or not, I was more talking about his posts in general. It seems to be throughout the majority of his and others replys in the beginner forum. But that a side, can I ask why you agree with him and what is wrong in what I have stated regarding clove hitches?
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michael1245
Sep 9, 2011, 6:06 PM
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clove hitches are adjustable knots, mmkay. think of them as what you want to use to equalize cord/rope.
I had some trouble understanding your posts as well. But, I'm under the impression you're trying to use clove hitches where you don't need them.
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michael1245
Sep 9, 2011, 6:13 PM
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Danx wrote: a stopper knott like a fishermans. Not really needed if you had a 1m or so tail, but would eliminate any chance of it slipping.
A stopper knot to stop a slipping clove hitch? Eh, I don't think that would work. I tie an eight after a clove hitch to back it up. Again, the clove hitch to equalize and the eight as the bomber knot.
Danx wrote: But again if clove hitches really are that dangerous then why is it common for them to be used in the end of a top rope anchor or when a belayer attaches themselves to the anchor to bring up the 2nd.
I don't tie in with a clove hitch. I use an eight, or girth hitch a sling (making sure it's static-tight).
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gmggg
Sep 9, 2011, 7:00 PM
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Danx wrote: jt512 wrote: Danx wrote: jt512 wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. Please stop posting. There is no point in writing a post if you can't write intelligibly. Jay Why do you even bother looking in this section... All you seem to do is flame people from what I have seen other than helping with questions. Surely the "beginner" section is for asking questions. Thanks to the other's who have replied and been helpful. If you can't write the question in a manner that is understandable, then what is the point of writing the question? Jay Other's managed to understand it... But we both know that isn't the point. For some reason you and several other people on this site seem to find it fun to make insults instead of actually helping people. You have demonstrated this through a number of threads in the beginner section. If it was really a case of you not understanding me then you would of asked me or simply ignored the thread. As for your first response about not posting, I probably won't be posting on this site for much longer. Thankfully there are a few other forums where people are really helpful. It's a shame really because there are a someful guys on this forum as well, but there's several other people who have to make insults because they think their question is silly. Maybe you forgot you was new once and others who were more experienced probably laughed at you.. But I don't see what you have to gain from sarcastic comments and flames. All I and many others in the beginner forum are trying to do is find out more information on a sport we love. I don't see what is wrong with that and why you have to be so arrogant about it? If you don't want to help then just ignore the thread.
Hey! I'm a someful guy.
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notapplicable
Sep 10, 2011, 4:40 AM
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Danx wrote: Rudmin wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. A stopper knott like a figure 8? Anyways, my dog has untied a clove hitch on his leash before just by just tugging on it a whole lot, so it's by no means guaranteed. a stopper knott like a fishermans. Not really needed if you had a 1m or so tail, but would eliminate any chance of it slipping. hmmm, was the clove hitch tightended? Don't think i've managed to make a clove hitch slip, so find it hard to see a dog doing it! (although would be fun to see lol). But again if clove hitches really are that dangerous then why is it common for them to be used in the end of a top rope anchor or when a belayer attaches themselves to the anchor to bring up the 2nd?
The stability of a clove hitch depends a lot on what it is tied with and what it is attached to, so I can certainly see a dog working one loose over time.
The reason they are commonly used to construct multipitch anchors and to attach a climber to the anchor is because someone is present to observe them while they are in use. I personally would rather not rely on unattended clove hitches for critical attachments in a TR anchor. It would probably be fine but "probably" is not good enough when there are better options.
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mikebee
Sep 10, 2011, 7:42 AM
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In reply to: In that case why is it common to use a clove hitch in the end caribiner as this would lead to the same scenario (atleast here in the uk it is).
In Australia, it is very rare to see the clove hitch as an end knot. I use a clove hitch for adjustability in my TR setups, but I always tie overhand on a bight, or a fig 8 on a bight and clip that into the same biner. This extra knot isn't loaded, but it does offer the insurance that if the clove slips while unattended due to cyclical loading, that you have some back up.
It's common for instructors over here to talk about end knots, fig 8s are an end knot, as when tied correctly, they are for all intent and purposes impossible to untie or work loose accidently. A clove hitch is not considered an end knot, as such, while it is relied on, its never (normally) tied as the last knot on the rope before the end.
In reply to: The equalisation is with the strands and overhand knott like you said but the use of clove hitches would make it slot easier to adjust afterwards if one of the points wasn't equalised properly.
It's not that hard to equalise the overhand properly first time. Most people can pick it up after one or two demonstrations. I'd rather spend the couple of extra seconds it takes to untie the overhand, reequalise and retie it, than to adjust a clovehitch used as an end knot.
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climbingtrash
Sep 10, 2011, 12:45 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: This may never happen again but I am with Jay on this one.
proof quote
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j_ung
Sep 10, 2011, 3:48 PM
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Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security.
This anchor you propose is redundant and it'll work fine, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Load distribution is built into the system when you tie your overhand master point, so if you find you often need to adjust its arms, there might be a different issue at work.
Do tie the stopper knots, though. Cyclical loading is inherent in every TR anchor, and you won't be around to keep an eye it.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 10, 2011, 3:49 PM)
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climbingtrash
Sep 10, 2011, 9:24 PM
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j_ung wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. This anchor you propose is redundant and it'll work fine, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Load distribution is built into the system when you tie your overhand master point, so if you find you often need to adjust its arms, there might be a different issue at work. Do tie the stopper knots, though. Cyclical loading is inherent in every TR anchor, and you won't be around to keep an eye it.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the PTFTW!
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damienclimber
Sep 11, 2011, 12:43 AM
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climbingtrash wrote: j_ung wrote: Danx wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a weighted clove hitch very unlikey to slide. If that was the case why would they be used to secure yourself when belaying the 2nd in lead climbs? I'd be worried with a short tail as well but when it's for rigging a top roe this shouldn't be an issue? You could always add a stopper knott for more security. This anchor you propose is redundant and it'll work fine, although I think you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. Load distribution is built into the system when you tie your overhand master point, so if you find you often need to adjust its arms, there might be a different issue at work. Do tie the stopper knots, though. Cyclical loading is inherent in every TR anchor, and you won't be around to keep an eye it. Don't forget to keep an eye on the PTFTW!
silly rabbits
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Danx
Sep 11, 2011, 6:41 PM
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JimTitt
Sep 11, 2011, 7:00 PM
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I think what everyone has been trying to tell you is that both are o.k as well as plenty of other methods. But we know clove hitches possibly aren´t the most reliable knot so stop them, a half hitch or two will be fine. I´d probably use a round turn and two half hitches on the end anyway because I´m old school and it freaks the beginners out!
Jim
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ceebo
Sep 11, 2011, 8:36 PM
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Why the overhand bite though? their worse than fig 8's to undo.
Also, safety is great and all but i personally think 3 points is overkill, even for single pitch trad.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Sep 11, 2011, 8:46 PM)
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Danx
Sep 11, 2011, 8:48 PM
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ceebo
Sep 11, 2011, 8:57 PM
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Danx wrote: ceebo wrote: Why the overhand bite though? their worse than fig 8's to undo. Just put overhand on the diagram for reference. I sometimes tie a fig 8 at the end instead. But I find if i do diagram b with a 10.5mm static rope, a fig 8 knott can be a bit clumpy. In this instance i've never really had any problems undoing an overhand.
Use a 2 point anchor then, easier to equalize and tie in bunny or w/e.
Missed your edit - if you think you need 3 then ofc, go for it.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Sep 11, 2011, 9:01 PM)
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Rmsyll2
Sep 15, 2011, 2:57 AM
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The basic answer to your basic question is that Clove alone is doubted, and you still have doubts about that.
To me, using a single line for three anchors is a new rigging to me. I would expect a cordelette loop, so that connecting that loop would be the only knot in the line, until making the equalization knot for the belay point. It also puts two strands at all three anchors, where you have one line to two anchors, making those two like backups for the central anchor. Yours may depend on using fat and strong cord? If so, a Clove is more difficult to make and cinch tight enough to hold.
.
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jjones16
Sep 22, 2011, 1:47 AM
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I don't use a figure 8 or a clove hitch on my top rope anchors. I either use sewn slings (one coming from each anchor point; provided that all the points are fairly even to each other) or I use a 8mm cordelette employing the standard load anticipation (on a top rope the load is most likely to be straight down) and use an overhand to tie all the loops in a master point. That was the longest sentence I've ever written. Generally clove hitches are used when there is no danger of the knot slipping out from tension release. One example would be securing yourself to an anchor with your climbing rope. One end of the rope is tied to your harness; the other end is running to your second (below you) and the clove is in between. It can also be used in the same fashion, but multiple times on different anchor pieces to equalize among multiple pieces. Even in this scenario, a loose end of the rope that could possibly slip out of a clove hitch is never possible because both ends are tied into something else. Clove hitches are great knots; easily adjustable, very strong under tension as you pointed out, and easy to tie and untie (you don't really untie it, you just let it slip off the biner. Every knot has an ideal purpose. The clove hitch in a top rope anchor should only be employed if is used within a securely tied cordelette. Honestly though, if you're belaying from the ground and just doing single pitch stuff, your top rope anchors should be strong, simple and functional. If you're doing multipitch stuff, there's a whole slew of shit you need to know... but I get the feeling you were just referring to setting up an anchor on single pitch stuff at your local crag. For future reference, if you can't post a picture, try to describe an image of your anchor and how you're employing the knots so that more experienced climbers can offer advice that's tailored to a more concise question and scenario. It might be worthwhile for you to pick up John Long's book on anchors. Have fun and be safe.
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horseshoe
Sep 22, 2011, 3:08 AM
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Danx wrote: Just wondered what advantage using a fig 8 knot instead of 2 clove hitches has when setting up top rope anchors?
A clove hitch is also a good knot, but it has potential problems (as pointed out above) with the way you propose to use it.
Experimentation and innovation are worthy traits, but rarely with your safety system. Your clove hitch system will probably work most of the time for you--but it is not as reliable as an eight.
Edit: FYI, I usually use a cordelette or slings depending on the situation.
(This post was edited by horseshoe on Sep 22, 2011, 3:13 AM)
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