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curt


Sep 13, 2011, 3:45 PM
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Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature...
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Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt


Partner macherry


Sep 13, 2011, 4:32 PM
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keepin' it classy


veganclimber


Sep 13, 2011, 8:06 PM
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All life is sacred. Until you're born, anyways.


byran


Sep 14, 2011, 12:58 PM
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I like Ron Paul, he's the only one out of the lot that I would even consider voting for over Obama. He will never win the primary however. He never had a chance. Like when asked if he would cut defense spending, he doesn't hesitate to say he'd gut the military and pull back troops from everywhere. Then he goes on to say, the whole reason we were attacked on 9/11 is because we have military bases all over the world and military bases on their holy land. The outrage from the audience was priceless.


Partner cracklover


Sep 21, 2011, 1:49 PM
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Ron Paul is awesome! He's like the clever whack-job you know at the office. Always spouting some new loony idea that has a million things wrong with it, but is still really clever and interesting.

GO


dr_feelgood


Sep 21, 2011, 2:55 PM
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hopefully this works.


DougMartin


Sep 21, 2011, 8:24 PM
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curt wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you. The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%. What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering. Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way!


veganclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 9:28 PM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
curt wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you.

This thread has very little to do with Paul. It was the audience that was cheering this guys death.

In reply to:
The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%.

How many doctors pay their own way through school? Most of them can only afford medical school by taking out loans backed up by the government. Going to public schools also helps keep costs down (thanks to government funding). Government funding accounts for about 36% of medical research. Should we cut that off? How about the FDA? Do you really want the government to stay out of it entirely?

In reply to:
What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering.

He wasn't inferring anything. He was asking a question. A perfectly reasonable question, as Paul doesn't want the government stepping in to help the guy. The question is pretty much inevitable at that point.

In reply to:
Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way!

How many cancer patients can a church help? How about AIDS medication that costs $10,000+ a year? What if the church or other charities can't or won't help. Do we just leave those people to die?


blondgecko
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Sep 21, 2011, 9:28 PM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
curt wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you. The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%. What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering. Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way!

So rather than having healthcare funding managed by the government, an organisation that is corrupt but at least somewhat answerable to the people, you'd rather have it be managed by the Catholic Church, an organisation that is corrupt to the core, and answerable to nobody. Good plan, that.


DougMartin


Sep 21, 2011, 10:03 PM
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Re: [blondgecko] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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[quote "blondgecko"][quote "DougMartin"][quote "curt"][quote "Yahoo News"]If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...[/quote]

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt[/quote]

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you. The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%. What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering. Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way![/quote]

So rather than having healthcare funding managed by the government, an organisation that is corrupt but at least somewhat answerable to the people, you'd rather have it be managed by the Catholic Church, an organisation that is corrupt to the core, and answerable to nobody. Good plan, that.[/quote]

Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities. Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it. Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.


DougMartin


Sep 21, 2011, 10:27 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
curt wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you.

This thread has very little to do with Paul. It was the audience that was cheering this guys death.

In reply to:
The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%.

How many doctors pay their own way through school? Most of them can only afford medical school by taking out loans backed up by the government. Going to public schools also helps keep costs down (thanks to government funding). Government funding accounts for about 36% of medical research. Should we cut that off? How about the FDA? Do you really want the government to stay out of it entirely?

In reply to:
What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering.

He wasn't inferring anything. He was asking a question. A perfectly reasonable question, as Paul doesn't want the government stepping in to help the guy. The question is pretty much inevitable at that point.

In reply to:
Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way!

How many cancer patients can a church help? How about AIDS medication that costs $10,000+ a year? What if the church or other charities can't or won't help. Do we just leave those people to die?

So you prefer to pay for them all out of your paycheck? Or would you prefer to support the organizations that would in your opinion help those that need it most? If we continue with this attitude of everything for everyone, the end result is a society that has no responsibility for itself. You do what you do and give all your compensation to the government and they decide who gets what and when. Medical care and all. I sure as hell don't want that do you?


veganclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 10:33 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities.

Well, now I know what to do if I get cancer. Stand on a corner and collect change. That should take care of the bills.

In reply to:
Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

Most people are barely getting by as it is. Then you get hit with a huge medical bill. What are you supposed to do? Die? I'll keep asking that until you answer it.

In reply to:
It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it.

Pretty simple if you don't think of it too much. I would say that your case was very unusual. No church can make a habit of paying large medical bills on a regular basis. You can't expect the church or other charity to come through and help every sick person out there. So what do you suggest for those that don't receive charity?

In reply to:
Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.

There are about 40 million people on foodstamps in this country. You want to cut that off too? If you had your way the churches would be flooded with sick and hungry people. Far too many for them to handle.


veganclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 10:52 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
curt wrote:
Yahoo News wrote:
If you're uninsured and on the brink of death, that's apparently a laughing matter to some audience members at last night's tea party Republican presidential debate.

Texas Rep. Ron Paul, a doctor, was asked a hypothetical question by CNN host Wolf Blitzer about how society should respond if a healthy 30-year-old man who decided against buying health insurance suddenly goes into a coma and requires intensive care for six months. Paul--a fierce limited-government advocate-- said it shouldn't be the government's responsibility. "That's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks," Paul said and was drowned out by audience applause as he added, "this whole idea that you have to prepare to take care of everybody …"
"Are you saying that society should just let him die?" Blitzer pressed Paul. And that's when the audience got involved.

Several loud cheers of "yeah!" followed by laughter could be heard in the Expo Hall at the Florida State Fairgrounds in response to Blitzer's question...

But they dislike Obama's healthcare program, because (according to them) there will be "death squads" who might have to decide what treatment you could get. Hypocritical fuckers.

Curt

Some times I wonder who the ignorant shit is! The guy who takes a statement and makes it much more than it is (Blitzer) or the guy who reacts to the guy who implies a statement says more than it does. Listen to what Paul said, I'll summarize it for you.

This thread has very little to do with Paul. It was the audience that was cheering this guys death.

In reply to:
The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health. I agree with that statement 100%.

How many doctors pay their own way through school? Most of them can only afford medical school by taking out loans backed up by the government. Going to public schools also helps keep costs down (thanks to government funding). Government funding accounts for about 36% of medical research. Should we cut that off? How about the FDA? Do you really want the government to stay out of it entirely?

In reply to:
What Blitzer did was usual for his callous idiotic ass, He inferred that Paul meant we should, as a society, not care for those that are sick and suffering.

He wasn't inferring anything. He was asking a question. A perfectly reasonable question, as Paul doesn't want the government stepping in to help the guy. The question is pretty much inevitable at that point.

In reply to:
Paul never said that, he did say that government should not play any role in it. There are many many other ways for our society to help those that need medical help and can not afford to pay for it. We should allow those organizations to flourish and do what they do, not have Washington do it for them. As a 19 year old with a blood clot in my shoulder, I did not have insurance and I was in the hospital for 7 days. Bill to me was something north of $14,000. Know how much I paid? $147.00. Guess who paid the rest, Catholic Charities and the hospitals charity foundation. Today, I give weekly to those two charities. I feel that is how society should help society, we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!! Some how I feel that Paul feels the same way!

How many cancer patients can a church help? How about AIDS medication that costs $10,000+ a year? What if the church or other charities can't or won't help. Do we just leave those people to die?

So you prefer to pay for them all out of your paycheck? Or would you prefer to support the organizations that would in your opinion help those that need it most?

I would prefer that insurance would cover the bills. The governments role is to make sure that insurance is available to everybody (no denying people for pre-existing conditions). I also think that the government should help people who truly cannot afford insurance.

In reply to:
If we continue with this attitude of everything for everyone, . . .

I'd say America has an attitude of everything for the top 1% and the hell with everybody else.

In reply to:
the end result is a society that has no responsibility for itself. You do what you do and give all your compensation to the government and they decide who gets what and when. Medical care and all. I sure as hell don't want that do you?

I don't know where this fear comes from. I really don't. Taxes are the lowest they have been in 50 years.


DougMartin


Sep 21, 2011, 10:54 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities.

Well, now I know what to do if I get cancer. Stand on a corner and collect change. That should take care of the bills.

In reply to:
Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

Most people are barely getting by as it is. Then you get hit with a huge medical bill. What are you supposed to do? Die? I'll keep asking that until you answer it.

In reply to:
It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it.

Pretty simple if you don't think of it too much. I would say that your case was very unusual. No church can make a habit of paying large medical bills on a regular basis. You can't expect the church or other charity to come through and help every sick person out there. So what do you suggest for those that don't receive charity?

In reply to:
Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.

There are about 40 million people on foodstamps in this country. You want to cut that off too? If you had your way the churches would be flooded with sick and hungry people. Far too many for them to handle.


Do you have any idea how much of your income goes to supporting government and it's activities? From the 40+ cents a gallon in federal taxes we pay on gasoline to the yearly property tax to the friction $5 I pay in federal taxes on my cable bill. Taxes taken after taxes eat a large percentage of our take home pay. If you and I and everyone else had that money in our pockets each and everyone of us would be better of and better prepared to give aid when one is in need. Can you give thousands to help your neighbor? Most can not, however shrinking government to a small percentage of what it currently is would reduce the funding required to maintain it. That alone increases the available funds for charity work because it puts more money in your pocket your neighbors pocket and my pocket a $14000 hospital bill may not be disastrous if my pay was nearly double. I may have been perfectly able to pay it without any help. And as far as $10000 aids meds, how much would they cost if the government was not involved with regulating them?

It's a never ending battle between those that take responsibility and those that do not. Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!


blondgecko
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Sep 21, 2011, 10:56 PM
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Here in Australia the Government does decide who gets what and when, when it comes to lifesaving medical care. Know what they decided? Everyone, and whenever they need it. Strangely, every country in the world with socialised medicine has decided similarly, and has yet to go broke because of it.


veganclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 11:13 PM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
Do you have any idea how much of your income goes to supporting government and it's activities? From the 40+ cents a gallon in federal taxes we pay on gasoline to the yearly property tax to the friction $5 I pay in federal taxes on my cable bill. Taxes taken after taxes eat a large percentage of our take home pay. If you and I and everyone else had that money in our pockets each and everyone of us would be better of and better prepared to give aid when one is in need. Can you give thousands to help your neighbor? Most can not, however shrinking government to a small percentage of what it currently is would reduce the funding required to maintain it. That alone increases the available funds for charity work because it puts more money in your pocket your neighbors pocket and my pocket a $14000 hospital bill may not be disastrous if my pay was nearly double. I may have been perfectly able to pay it without any help.

Sure, if there were no taxes we would all have a lot more money to give to charity. We would also have no roads, public education, scientific research, police, military, . . .

In reply to:
And as far as $10000 aids meds, how much would they cost if the government was not involved with regulating them?

This question is meaningless, as we wouldn't have these drugs to begin with if the government didn't fund the research. As far as regulating them, that does add to the cost. It also helps keep worthless and dangerous drugs off the market.

In reply to:
It's a never ending battle between those that take responsibility and those that do not.

How do you take responsibility for your health care when you cannot get insurance because of a pre-existing condition? How about if you are working full time and can't afford the payments?

In reply to:
Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!

Hospitals can turn you away if you are not in immediate need of care.


veganclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 11:19 PM
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Re: [blondgecko] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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blondgecko wrote:
Here in Australia the Government does decide who gets what and when, when it comes to lifesaving medical care. Know what they decided? Everyone, and whenever they need it. Strangely, every country in the world with socialised medicine has decided similarly, and has yet to go broke because of it.

http://www.photius.com/...ngs/healthranks.html

The US is ranked 37 by the world health organization, and we pay far more per capita than anybody else.


I_do


Sep 22, 2011, 12:13 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities.

Well, now I know what to do if I get cancer. Stand on a corner and collect change. That should take care of the bills.

In reply to:
Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

Most people are barely getting by as it is. Then you get hit with a huge medical bill. What are you supposed to do? Die? I'll keep asking that until you answer it.

In reply to:
It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it.

Pretty simple if you don't think of it too much. I would say that your case was very unusual. No church can make a habit of paying large medical bills on a regular basis. You can't expect the church or other charity to come through and help every sick person out there. So what do you suggest for those that don't receive charity?

In reply to:
Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.

There are about 40 million people on foodstamps in this country. You want to cut that off too? If you had your way the churches would be flooded with sick and hungry people. Far too many for them to handle.


Do you have any idea how much of your income goes to supporting government and it's activities? From the 40+ cents a gallon in federal taxes we pay on gasoline to the yearly property tax to the friction $5 I pay in federal taxes on my cable bill. Taxes taken after taxes eat a large percentage of our take home pay. If you and I and everyone else had that money in our pockets each and everyone of us would be better of and better prepared to give aid when one is in need. Can you give thousands to help your neighbor? Most can not, however shrinking government to a small percentage of what it currently is would reduce the funding required to maintain it. That alone increases the available funds for charity work because it puts more money in your pocket your neighbors pocket and my pocket a $14000 hospital bill may not be disastrous if my pay was nearly double. I may have been perfectly able to pay it without any help. And as far as $10000 aids meds, how much would they cost if the government was not involved with regulating them?

It's a never ending battle between those that take responsibility and those that do not. Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!

First bold; fuck you, I take responsibility for myself and all of society even those not in a position or without the common sense to take care for themselves by paying into a government system I believe in.

second bold; so now you do expect the government to help people that do need take care of themselves, do you want them to or not? Make up your mind.

Third; you DIDN'T take care of yourself, you were fortunate enough to have an outside organization help you out, not a good example for your own system.

You are so full of shit.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 3:55 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help.

So, if NOBODY offered to help you, then what? Let's make a reasonable extension to this, and suppose that you, again at 19 years young, had a treatable cancer but no way to pay for treatment yourself, and NOBODY offered to help you... Then what? Should you have been allowed to die?

I look forward to your reply to my direct questions... Note that there are two question marks in the above.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 3:56 AM)


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 4:06 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!

Hmmm... So, do you think treating people who have not been able to get preventative care when a disease was manageable, and let it get to the point that it is life threatening makes good fiscal sense?

Example:
Someone has diabetes, which is easily manageable with insulin and diet... However, one cannot afford to go to a doctor to get examined, prescribed insulin, and counciled on diet... Therefore, they are going blind, and have ulcers in their feet, now requiring emergent care to amputate their feet, and treat what is now "life threatening" stuff. Not to mention that now they will likely be on disability, and unable toi work, being a further drain on the system.

So, in this example, what do you think is cheaper: Paying for preventative care, or requiring hospitals to not turn them away once it is life threatening?


In other words, what you seem to be OK with is... Pay for "emergency room stuff", even when it could have been taken care of long before with "preventative medicine" that would have been MUCH cheaper, and with a much higher success rate.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 9:14 AM)


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 4:31 AM
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Re: [rrrADAM] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help.

So, if NOBODY offered to help you, then what? Let's make a reasonable extension to this, and suppose that you, again at 19 years young, had a treatable cancer but no way to pay for treatment yourself, and NOBODY offered to help you... Then what? Should you have been allowed to die?

I look forward to your reply to my direct questions... Note that there are two question marks in the above.

Yes Doug, please do give a direct answer to these questions. If you don't I will have to agree with I_do that you are, indeed, a hypocrite who is full of shit.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 4:39 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
In other words, what you seem to be OK with is... Pay for "emergency room stuff", even when it could have been taken care of long before with "preventative medicine" that would have been MUCH cheaper, and with a much higher success rate.

This is the thing that kills me about the Ron Paul mentality. If you truly believe in the Libertarian (and now apparently mainstream Republican) mantra that sick uninsured people should be left to suffer, cheered by the masses to their death beds, then for fuck's sake you should first lobby for eliminating laws requiring no-questions-asked emergency room care. But of course this won't happen, because Paul and his ilk do realize that you need a safety net, and the emergency room serves as a nice backdoor to this problem that let's them avoid killing off the most vulnerable without appearing to compromise their bullshit "values".

Fucking hypocrites, one and all.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 5:36 AM
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Re: [ubu] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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Doug,

Or, to drive the point home, PLEASE read this story about my son's best friend:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1822637#1822637

Just the first two posts about him... Then, tell me how all of his care would have been taken care of, if his parents hadn't had insurance, in accordance with your ideas of how it "should be done". Note that NONE of his care was "emergency room" type stuff, up until the end... AND, being a child, he had no input into whether his parents have insurance, or even a job, so he was lucky there... But there are many children who are not as lucky to have parents with insurance, through no fault of their own. Not to mention all the kids who's parents no longer have insurance since they lost their jobs years ago (you do know about the 'jobs' situation, right?), and haven't been able to get another one.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 9:16 AM)


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Re: [I_do] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities.

Well, now I know what to do if I get cancer. Stand on a corner and collect change. That should take care of the bills.

In reply to:
Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

Most people are barely getting by as it is. Then you get hit with a huge medical bill. What are you supposed to do? Die? I'll keep asking that until you answer it.

In reply to:
It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it.

Pretty simple if you don't think of it too much. I would say that your case was very unusual. No church can make a habit of paying large medical bills on a regular basis. You can't expect the church or other charity to come through and help every sick person out there. So what do you suggest for those that don't receive charity?

In reply to:
Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.

There are about 40 million people on foodstamps in this country. You want to cut that off too? If you had your way the churches would be flooded with sick and hungry people. Far too many for them to handle.


Do you have any idea how much of your income goes to supporting government and it's activities? From the 40+ cents a gallon in federal taxes we pay on gasoline to the yearly property tax to the friction $5 I pay in federal taxes on my cable bill. Taxes taken after taxes eat a large percentage of our take home pay. If you and I and everyone else had that money in our pockets each and everyone of us would be better of and better prepared to give aid when one is in need. Can you give thousands to help your neighbor? Most can not, however shrinking government to a small percentage of what it currently is would reduce the funding required to maintain it. That alone increases the available funds for charity work because it puts more money in your pocket your neighbors pocket and my pocket a $14000 hospital bill may not be disastrous if my pay was nearly double. I may have been perfectly able to pay it without any help. And as far as $10000 aids meds, how much would they cost if the government was not involved with regulating them?

It's a never ending battle between those that take responsibility and those that do not. Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!

First bold; fuck you, I take responsibility for myself and all of society even those not in a position or without the common sense to take care for themselves by paying into a government system I believe in.

second bold; so now you do expect the government to help people that do need take care of themselves, do you want them to or not? Make up your mind.

Third; you DIDN'T take care of yourself, you were fortunate enough to have an outside organization help you out, not a good example for your own system.

You are so full of shit.

Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!


traddad


Sep 22, 2011, 7:32 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

Complete coward.


I_do


Sep 22, 2011, 7:40 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
I_do wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Again people playing with words to make them fit their needs. At no point did I say catholic charities should handle health care. I did say that catholic charities is an organization, within our society, that helped me, a member of society, with a crisis. I don't care if you feel it better to pan handle for the funds, than use catholic charities.

Well, now I know what to do if I get cancer. Stand on a corner and collect change. That should take care of the bills.

In reply to:
Your medical bills are your responsibility not mine or your neighbors unless I or your neighbor care to help you. It's not our governments responsibility to handle our personal affairs.

Most people are barely getting by as it is. Then you get hit with a huge medical bill. What are you supposed to do? Die? I'll keep asking that until you answer it.

In reply to:
It is my responsibility to care for myself and if I can't I need to make the nessacary arrangements through whatever means I can. I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help. In return I offer to help them help others. Pretty simple when you actually think about it.

Pretty simple if you don't think of it too much. I would say that your case was very unusual. No church can make a habit of paying large medical bills on a regular basis. You can't expect the church or other charity to come through and help every sick person out there. So what do you suggest for those that don't receive charity?

In reply to:
Support who you want to support, help who you want to help not who the government says needs help! I also give to the local Baptist church's food pantry, maybe foodstamps should be thing of the past as well. Then maybe the young mother will not be using yours tax dollars and mine to buy ho-ho's for her six kids at the local gas/conivence store with them. Have a nice discussion.

There are about 40 million people on foodstamps in this country. You want to cut that off too? If you had your way the churches would be flooded with sick and hungry people. Far too many for them to handle.


Do you have any idea how much of your income goes to supporting government and it's activities? From the 40+ cents a gallon in federal taxes we pay on gasoline to the yearly property tax to the friction $5 I pay in federal taxes on my cable bill. Taxes taken after taxes eat a large percentage of our take home pay. If you and I and everyone else had that money in our pockets each and everyone of us would be better of and better prepared to give aid when one is in need. Can you give thousands to help your neighbor? Most can not, however shrinking government to a small percentage of what it currently is would reduce the funding required to maintain it. That alone increases the available funds for charity work because it puts more money in your pocket your neighbors pocket and my pocket a $14000 hospital bill may not be disastrous if my pay was nearly double. I may have been perfectly able to pay it without any help. And as far as $10000 aids meds, how much would they cost if the government was not involved with regulating them?

It's a never ending battle between those that take responsibility and those that do not. Last point on you question of a large medical bill and dying, our government in one of it's actual good decisions made a law that Requires medical personnel and hospitals to provide medical care to those in need regardless of their ability to pay for it. So you just go to the hospital they won't let you die!

First bold; fuck you, I take responsibility for myself and all of society even those not in a position or without the common sense to take care for themselves by paying into a government system I believe in.

second bold; so now you do expect the government to help people that do need take care of themselves, do you want them to or not? Make up your mind.

Third; you DIDN'T take care of yourself, you were fortunate enough to have an outside organization help you out, not a good example for your own system.

You are so full of shit.

Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

I am glad you came up with another insightfull post without adressing any of the direct questions asked by several people. My tone has not been the most gentle but I think the message still stands. A message which you seem to be unable to respond to.

If you happened to have missed it I was actually responding to the content of your posts as well as many others.

Time to put up or shut up.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 7:54 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
In reply to:
[snip]
Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

Doug... I trust you are going to address/answer my direct questions to you?

No?


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 7:56 AM)


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 8:50 AM
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Re: [traddad] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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traddad wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

Complete coward.

No just not going to debate a person that can not avoid personal insults, To continue with him would place me on the same level!


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 8:51 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health.

Hey Doug, I’m curious as to why you think government has no business in health care, can you explain that for me?

And a follow-up, what do you think government does have business in?


DougMartin wrote:
we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!!

It’s interesting that you chose the words “two cents”, because when government provides health care it does it with an administrative overhead of about 2%, whereas the insurance industry has a typical overhead of about 18%.

So you prefer paying 18 cents on your dollar rather than 2 cents? I’m cool if you like to pay more, but I’d prefer that you don’t force me to have to pay more as well.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 9:06 AM
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Re: [DougMartin] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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DougMartin wrote:
traddad wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

Complete coward.

No just not going to debate a person that can not avoid personal insults, To continue with him would place me on the same level!
This is two replies from you, addressing pettiness, but not my direct questions to you. To be honest, while you are saying you don't want to lower yourself to petty insults, your last two posts have zero content, and are, in fact, just petty insults.

You use the word "debate" above, and that means 'two way', as in "discourse", not just 'one way' my friend.

While direct, I am being respectful.

Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911

Note - These are short, and not too difficult to answer. I susspect you have read them, but have chosen not to answer them, yet?


BTW... Is this your profile, on what is mainly a porn site:
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/doogie5_2000

Nothing wrong with that, from a liberal viewpoint...
It's just not very "Conservative". Wink


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 9:31 AM)


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 10:23 AM
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Re: [ubu] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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ubu wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help.

So, if NOBODY offered to help you, then what? Let's make a reasonable extension to this, and suppose that you, again at 19 years young, had a treatable cancer but no way to pay for treatment yourself, and NOBODY offered to help you... Then what? Should you have been allowed to die?

I look forward to your reply to my direct questions... Note that there are two question marks in the above.

Yes Doug, please do give a direct answer to these questions. If you don't I will have to agree with I_do that you are, indeed, a hypocrite who is full of shit.


rrrADAM and ubu,

Being allowed to die would be an option one could choose, although I do not believe it is one that would not be chosen often! And if it is chosen who determined that this is not a valid option? A question back to you, should the government be allowed to tell you how to handle your medical issues?

What other options exist when you need to pay for a catastrophic medical bill, bankruptcy, extended payments, lowering my standard of living to allow for a traditional payment plan, and others, such as family, friends, employers.

The point I am making is that it is my responsibility to handle it is not yours or your neighbors. Government sponsored or support health care makes it your responsibility. We are the government, what the government does, we as citizens also do. I don't believe anyone should be forced to take responsibility for another persons situation. It allows for those that are irresponsible to continue to be that way as well makes responsible people irresponsible. Do you like the idea of being required to be responsible for your neighbors health care or do you prefer the freedom to choose who you are responsible for?

What our government should do is to make sure we have the freedom to take care of it ourselves though what ever remedy best suits us, not take of it for us!

I hope this answered your questions, and please answer mine as well. Also thank you for the discussion its nice to have one with someone that can be civilized and not ignorant, a rarity on this site.


I_do


Sep 22, 2011, 10:25 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
traddad wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Mama taught me never to argue with an idiot and you sir are!

Complete coward.

No just not going to debate a person that can not avoid personal insults, To continue with him would place me on the same level!
This is two replies from you, addressing pettiness, but not my direct questions to you. To be honest, while you are saying you don't want to lower yourself to petty insults, your last two posts have zero content, and are, in fact, just petty insults.

You use the word "debate" above, and that means 'two way', as in "discourse", not just 'one way' my friend.

While direct, I am being respectful.

Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911

Note - These are short, and not too difficult to answer. I susspect you have read them, but have chosen not to answer them, yet?


BTW... Is this your profile, on what is mainly a porn site:
http://www.imagefap.com/profile/doogie5_2000

Nothing wrong with that, from a liberal viewpoint...
It's just not very "Conservative". Wink

I guess in retrospect my initial rudeness was deserved. This dude is only saying how he is above my petty insults while ignoring direct questions. Far more rude then calling out bullshit in my book.


veganclimber


Sep 22, 2011, 10:38 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
ubu wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help.

So, if NOBODY offered to help you, then what? Let's make a reasonable extension to this, and suppose that you, again at 19 years young, had a treatable cancer but no way to pay for treatment yourself, and NOBODY offered to help you... Then what? Should you have been allowed to die?

I look forward to your reply to my direct questions... Note that there are two question marks in the above.

Yes Doug, please do give a direct answer to these questions. If you don't I will have to agree with I_do that you are, indeed, a hypocrite who is full of shit.


rrrADAM and ubu,

Being allowed to die would be an option one could choose, although I do not believe it is one that would not be chosen often!

What you don't seem to understand is that, for a lot of people, that is their only option. People who do not get insurance through work often cannot get their own. Insurance companies do not want to insure people they think will get sick. People even get denied for things like asthma. Women have been denied insurance for being raped (seriously). What is your answer to these people?

In reply to:
And if it is chosen who determined that this is not a valid option? A question back to you, should the government be allowed to tell you how to handle your medical issues?

What other options exist when you need to pay for a catastrophic medical bill, bankruptcy,

get sick and go bankrupt. That's a great solution. What does this actually solve, other than destroying somebody's life? Somebody still has to pay for it.

In reply to:
extended payments, lowering my standard of living to allow for a traditional payment plan,

How do you lower your standard of living if you already have trouble just getting by?

In reply to:
and others, such as family, friends, employers.

Not always an option.

In reply to:
The point I am making is that it is my responsibility to handle it is not yours or your neighbors. Government sponsored or support health care makes it your responsibility. We are the government, what the government does, we as citizens also do. I don't believe anyone should be forced to take responsibility for another persons situation. It allows for those that are irresponsible to continue to be that way as well makes responsible people irresponsible. Do you like the idea of being required to be responsible for your neighbors health care or do you prefer the freedom to choose who you are responsible for? What our government should do is to make sure we have the freedom to take care of it ourselves though what ever remedy best suits us, not take of it for us!

Otherwise known as the "die quickly" plan.


Allfred


Sep 22, 2011, 10:39 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
Do you like the idea of being required to be responsible for your neighbors health care or do you prefer the freedom to choose who you are responsible for?

Are you advocating abolishing private medical insurance too? Do you have medical insurance now?

You do realize your insurance premium goes to pay the medical costs of others, i.e. you are responsible in part for those who have the same insurance company as you.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 10:53 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
Doug,

Or, to drive the point home, PLEASE read this story about my son's best friend:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1822637#1822637

Just the first two posts about him... Then, tell me how all of his care would have been taken care of, if his parents hadn't had insurance, in accordance with your ideas of how it "should be done". Note that NONE of his care was "emergency room" type stuff, up until the end... AND, being a child, he had no input into whether his parents have insurance, or even a job, so he was lucky there... But there are many children who are not as lucky to have parents with insurance, through no fault of their own. Not to mention all the kids who's parents no longer have insurance since they lost their jobs years ago (you do know about the 'jobs' situation, right?), and haven't been able to get another one.


My prayers to Diego's family and to you on the loss of someone that obviously touched your life.

In regards to this conversation how is it relevant to your position on government supported or mandated health care? It seems as if in this case privatized health care handled this in the best way possible, As it is designed to do and is the method I support. In regards to payment for services rendered, there are many organizations that make your example their mission. To help those that can not help themselves. I am just thankful that approach was not needed in this case!

Yes, I am aware of the jobs situation. Obama and his crew could have worked on that instead of health care! If he had, he would have a much better chance of being reelected. I voted for him the first time but its going to be tough to do the same this time!


Allfred


Sep 22, 2011, 10:58 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
It seems as if in this case privatized health care handled this in the best way possible, As it is designed to do and is the method I support.


What are you a socialist or something? Sending your money to the insurance company for them to decide who best needs it.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Simple reply because I have no idea how you do all that splitting quotes stuff your doing and its getting very long!

You make it seem as if I am in full agreement with our health care position as it currently stands. You also seem to think that "a lot" of people don't have choices when in fact they do. Every one always has an option, there are very few things we as people do involuntarily! They just don't like those options or want to take that option so they let someone else take care of it for them!

Realize you support mandating health care insurance in this country because 16.7% of our population does not have health care insurance, 16.7%. You change the entire system because of it, and your supporting a change that will still leave approx 10% without coverage.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

Is your insurance going to change when this is played out? Mine will! Hell, based on my current income I may even qualify for a subsidy paid for by you a taxpayer. As it is now I take home less money from a very rewarding job simply because I have fantastic health insurance which does cover the wife's diabetic supplies. I could still work in a place that I made more money but then again the insurance was not any good! Tough decision to make less money, more medical health security or more money, less health care. So I do a lot of personal exposure to this issue. And what they are trying to do could very well hurt the 83.3% of us that do take care of ourselves and are willing to make the tough decision but that's our government at work!

Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!


Now I have real things to do, work is calling!


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 11:31 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
I hope this answered your questions, and please answer mine as well. Also thank you for the discussion its nice to have one with someone that can be civilized and not ignorant, a rarity on this site.

No, you did not... Not even close... Your answers are nebulous.

The questions are direct, so direct answers are appreciated.

Again, I wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911



I see that you know how to use the "quote" option when replying, so click each link, read carefully, quote, then give a direct anser to the question or issue posed. I took the time to construct them in an unambiguous format, and even reposted the links for you to easily address them.

For an example of how to do this, please refer to what I was doing with you, in quoting you before addressing your point/statement... Or, you can look at how others in this threadare doing it in replies to you. That is called discourse.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 11:34 AM
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Allfred wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
It seems as if in this case privatized health care handled this in the best way possible, As it is designed to do and is the method I support.


What are you a socialist or something? Sending your money to the insurance company for them to decide who best needs it.

What part of privatized health care is socialist? I pay them, they in turn pay for my required medical expenses. That is what private health insurance does.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 11:42 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
Every one always has an option, there are very few things we as people do involuntarily! They just don't like those options or want to take that option so they let someone else take care of it for them!

Ah but it feels good to spout the Libertarian lines of freedom and personal responsibility. What a simple world to live in. Every Man is an Island! Live Free or Die Trying! None shall be their brothers' keeper...

Your head is deep in the sand if you believe it true that "Every one always has an option". Do you have any idea what it's like to get insurance when you have a serious pre-existing medical condition? Even for employer-covered plans this is a major challenge. What "choice" do the unemployed have??? Wake the fuck up.

Frankly I find your attitude comical coming from someone who admitted to relying on an external party to cover a moderate health expenditure, rather than just "accepting your choice" and going bankrupt.


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Sep 22, 2011, 11:43 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
Doug,

Or, to drive the point home, PLEASE read this story about my son's best friend:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1822637#1822637

Just the first two posts about him... Then, tell me how all of his care would have been taken care of, if his parents hadn't had insurance, in accordance with your ideas of how it "should be done". Note that NONE of his care was "emergency room" type stuff, up until the end... AND, being a child, he had no input into whether his parents have insurance, or even a job, so he was lucky there... But there are many children who are not as lucky to have parents with insurance, through no fault of their own. Not to mention all the kids who's parents no longer have insurance since they lost their jobs years ago (you do know about the 'jobs' situation, right?), and haven't been able to get another one.


My prayers to Diego's family and to you on the loss of someone that obviously touched your life.

In regards to this conversation how is it relevant to your position on government supported or mandated health care? It seems as if in this case privatized health care handled this in the best way possible, As it is designed to do and is the method I support. In regards to payment for services rendered, there are many organizations that make your example their mission. To help those that can not help themselves. I am just thankful that approach was not needed in this case!

Yes, I am aware of the jobs situation. Obama and his crew could have worked on that instead of health care! If he had, he would have a much better chance of being reelected. I voted for him the first time but its going to be tough to do the same this time!


OK... Now, that's how you do it. Good start!

To your question:
In reply to:
In regards to this conversation how is it relevant to your position on government supported or mandated health care?

I was addressing your statement that [paraphrasing] the government should not pay for anything other than emergency health care... Which is why I what I put in bold above... Please review then return...


All that still stands, as you did not address my question... How would all that be taken care of if he had NOT had insurance, or for similar children who's parents have no insurance through no fault of their own? Again, note that the bulk of his care was not "emergency room" type stuff.

In case you are missing my question, I'll rephrase it for you... How would a child who's parents have no insurance get that type of care? Let's even imagine that it is as simple as a susspected melanoma, that once biopsied and diagnosed, is easily treatable if caught early on... All of that is not "emergency room" type stuff, and requires specialists to diagnose and treat, so the kid can most likely live a long and healthy life. If not done, it would grow and matastacise, likely becomeing incurable, and very costly when at the "emergency room" stage.


But you did get what I was asking, as you refused to answer that:
In reply to:
I am just thankful that approach was not needed in this case (Diego)!

Please, I am asking you to describe this approach, instead of looking away, and pretending it isn;t there... Actually addressing it.

Saying there are organizations who do this, without giving specific example is nebulous... Tell me, who would pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars? Is this garanteed that all kids who need it, will get it?


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 11:56 AM)


Allfred


Sep 22, 2011, 11:44 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
Allfred wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
It seems as if in this case privatized health care handled this in the best way possible, As it is designed to do and is the method I support.


What are you a socialist or something? Sending your money to the insurance company for them to decide who best needs it.

What part of privatized health care is socialist? I pay them, they in turn pay for my required medical expenses. That is what private health insurance does.

They tax a wide pool of people in order to dole out medical coverage to each according to their need.

Marx is pleased that you don't pay your medical bills out of pocket.

Oh look it's a rate increase!


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 11:47 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
Every one always has an option, there are very few things we as people do involuntarily!

No, they ALL do not... Again(!), children do not have an option.

Responsible, previously insured people, who have lost their jobs, and have their houses forclosed, do not have options to get good health insurance... For them or their families.

So, how should people like that get preventative care?


Now I am repeating myself, brutha... PLEASE, take the time to click the links (all 3, not just 1), and directly answer the question raised in it. They are made directly to where I quote a statement from you.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 11:55 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I hope this answered your questions, and please answer mine as well. Also thank you for the discussion its nice to have one with someone that can be civilized and not ignorant, a rarity on this site.

No, you did not... Not even close... Your answers are nebulous.

The questions are direct, so direct answers are appreciated.


rrrADAM wrote:
Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911



I see that you know how to use the "quote" option when replying, so click each link, read carefully, quote, then give a direct anser to the question or issue posed. I took the time to construct them in an unambiguous format, and even reposted the links for you to easily address them.

For an example of how to do this, please refer to what I was doing with you, in quoting you before addressing your point/statement... Or, you can look at how others in this threadare doing it in replies to you. That is called discourse.

So, If one fails to recognize a very direct and distinguishable answer the answer is nonexistent or is it that until an answer is one you agree with or can support, it is not an answer. Oh, and I love being nebulous! Its in a social workers DNA!


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 12:07 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I hope this answered your questions, and please answer mine as well. Also thank you for the discussion its nice to have one with someone that can be civilized and not ignorant, a rarity on this site.

No, you did not... Not even close... Your answers are nebulous.

The questions are direct, so direct answers are appreciated.


rrrADAM wrote:
Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911



I see that you know how to use the "quote" option when replying, so click each link, read carefully, quote, then give a direct anser to the question or issue posed. I took the time to construct them in an unambiguous format, and even reposted the links for you to easily address them.

For an example of how to do this, please refer to what I was doing with you, in quoting you before addressing your point/statement... Or, you can look at how others in this threadare doing it in replies to you. That is called discourse.

So, If one fails to recognize a very direct and distinguishable answer the answer is nonexistent or is it that until an answer is one you agree with or can support, it is not an answer. Oh, and I love being nebulous! Its in a social workers DNA!

1. I replied to that one prior to reading through the post to see that you did in fact reply to one of them... My bad, I do that often, as I am impatient... I also tend to often edit posts until replied to, as I rarely get it right before I hit submit. I need to work on that.

2. Your later reply did not address or answer my question with anything of substance... It was nebulous, once again. See reply to that one as well.

I am beginning to think you will not directly reply to the tough questions... Incapable of constructing a reasonable argument concerning them, perhaps?


If you value nebulous responses and solutions, and picking and choosing what you will even address, perhaps you should run for the Tea Party Candidate for President... You would be qualified, and fit right in with the rest of 'em. Tongue


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 12:13 PM)


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 12:16 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I hope this answered your questions, and please answer mine as well. Also thank you for the discussion its nice to have one with someone that can be civilized and not ignorant, a rarity on this site.

No, you did not... Not even close... Your answers are nebulous.

The questions are direct, so direct answers are appreciated.


rrrADAM wrote:
Please, copy, paste, and answer my questions in regards to your stated position.

Here, they are here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540899#2540899
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540902#2540902
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2540911#2540911



I see that you know how to use the "quote" option when replying, so click each link, read carefully, quote, then give a direct anser to the question or issue posed. I took the time to construct them in an unambiguous format, and even reposted the links for you to easily address them.

For an example of how to do this, please refer to what I was doing with you, in quoting you before addressing your point/statement... Or, you can look at how others in this threadare doing it in replies to you. That is called discourse.

So, If one fails to recognize a very direct and distinguishable answer the answer is nonexistent or is it that until an answer is one you agree with or can support, it is not an answer. Oh, and I love being nebulous! Its in a social workers DNA!

1. I replied to that one prior to reading through the post to see that you did in fact reply to one of them.
2. Your reply did not address or answer my question with anything of substance... It was nebulous, once again.


If you value nebulous responses and solutions, perhaps you should run for the Tea Party Candidate for President...
You would be qualified, and fit right in with the rest. Tongue

Not unless you would volunteer to be my running mate.
We could spend the day arguing nugatory, jejune things that affect neither of us with our new found status as president and vice president! Cool


atg200


Sep 22, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 12:26 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
ubu wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
I my case, catholic charities offered to help in my time of need and I was grateful for the help.

So, if NOBODY offered to help you, then what? Let's make a reasonable extension to this, and suppose that you, again at 19 years young, had a treatable cancer but no way to pay for treatment yourself, and NOBODY offered to help you... Then what? Should you have been allowed to die?

I look forward to your reply to my direct questions... Note that there are two question marks in the above.

Yes Doug, please do give a direct answer to these questions. If you don't I will have to agree with I_do that you are, indeed, a hypocrite who is full of shit.


rrrADAM and ubu,

Being allowed to die would be an option one could choose, although I do not believe it is one that would not be chosen often! And if it is chosen who determined that this is not a valid option?

You are not answering this question... See bold above...

You have this treatable cancer, at 19, an nobody to help you... No parents, family, charitable organization... You cannot go to an emergency room for this, as it is not life threatening, YET. You need expensive specialized care to prevent it from killing you, and likely cure you.

How are you going to get that treatment? Or, should your cancer be allowed to go untreated, until you are suffering, and in need of much more expensive emergency care?

Direct question... A direct (non-nebulous) answer is prefferred.



In reply to:
A question back to you, should the government be allowed to tell you how to handle your medical issues?
No, and they don't... Doctors tell me how to handle my medical issues, whether I pay for them, my insurance company pays for them, or the gobment pays for them.




In reply to:
What other options exist when you need to pay for a catastrophic medical bill, bankruptcy, extended payments, lowering my standard of living to allow for a traditional payment plan, and others, such as family, friends, employers.


Logic fail, as you are assuming, incorrectly that preventative service was rendered... With no insurance, there is none, and, as you say, only "emergency room" care.



In reply to:
The point I am making is that it is my responsibility to handle it is not yours or your neighbors. Government sponsored or support health care makes it your responsibility. We are the government, what the government does, we as citizens also do. I don't believe anyone should be forced to take responsibility for another persons situation. It allows for those that are irresponsible to continue to be that way as well makes responsible people irresponsible. Do you like the idea of being required to be responsible for your neighbors health care or do you prefer the freedom to choose who you are responsible for?
I, and you are already responsible to pay for the "emergency room" stuff, which is WAY more expensive than the preventative care would have been that could have, well, "prevented" it, that's why it's called "preventative care". That's what's not payed for, and why we pay so much now.



In reply to:
What our government should do is to make sure we have the freedom to take care of it ourselves though what ever remedy best suits us, not take of it for us!
And, to the kids who'se parents choose none, or can't afford it? What happens to them?

That's a question... Please, answer and be specific.



See... Copy, paste, direct answer... Now, you try. Wink


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 12:34 PM
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atg200 wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!

No it doesn't - history shows that the US government tends to do large scale projects better than any other entity on earth. Good examples of this are the interstate highway system, moon landing, hubble telescope and space exploration probes, GPS, the Panama Canal, the Manhattan Project, the invention and early development of the internet, the human genome project, etc.

Highways are in great need of repair due to lack of maintenance and mis-management. Hubble telescope broke. The moon landing was just another way the United states showed off. And the internet, since when did the government invent it, oh yeah it was Al Gore! I forgot! The Panama Canal, are you forgetting the fact that we supported overthrowing the Columbia government just to finish what the French envisioned! GPS, developed privately for the military, not by the military!

And now you want them to handle your health care.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 12:47 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
atg200 wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!

No it doesn't - history shows that the US government tends to do large scale projects better than any other entity on earth. Good examples of this are the interstate highway system, moon landing, hubble telescope and space exploration probes, GPS, the Panama Canal, the Manhattan Project, the invention and early development of the internet, the human genome project, etc.

Highways are in great need of repair due to lack of maintenance and mis-management. Hubble telescope broke. The moon landing was just another way the United states showed off. And the internet, since when did the government invent it, oh yeah it was Al Gore! I forgot! The Panama Canal, are you forgetting the fact that we supported overthrowing the Columbia government just to finish what the French envisioned! GPS, developed privately for the military, not by the military!

And now you want them to handle your health care.

Holy lack of comprehension Batman! Each of your above examples shows the exact opposite of what you seem to think it does.

Highways are in need of repair for lack of funds, not mis-management.

The Hubble telescope performed brilliantly over an exceptionally long (much longer than planned) lifetime.

The moon landing was fundamental to moving many technologies forward. We typically hear about this in terms of things like new materials, but one of the most important developments that would not exist without the moon program is modern control theory, a field that is fundamental to just about everything you now touch on a daily basis.

The internet and GPS exist solely due to government funding. You do understand that the vast majority of "government research and development" is outsourced, right?

And yes, Al Gore was at the core of pushing through the funding that turned the internet into what it is today.

The Panama canal certainly wouldn't have been built without US govt funding!

Any other misconceptions you'd like to try throw out there?


EDIT: so, fuck yes I want government involved in improving the delivery and reducing the costs of health care in the US. I believe this country can do truly great things, and has an opportunity to completely transform modern health care if we could just come together and apply rational thought to solve the single biggest financial and moral issue facing the country today.


(This post was edited by ubu on Sep 22, 2011, 12:50 PM)


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 12:58 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
atg200 wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!

No it doesn't - history shows that the US government tends to do large scale projects better than any other entity on earth. Good examples of this are the interstate highway system, moon landing, hubble telescope and space exploration probes, GPS, the Panama Canal, the Manhattan Project, the invention and early development of the internet, the human genome project, etc.

Highways are in great need of repair due to lack of maintenance and mis-management. Hubble telescope broke. The moon landing was just another way the United states showed off. And the internet, since when did the government invent it, oh yeah it was Al Gore! I forgot! The Panama Canal, are you forgetting the fact that we supported overthrowing the Columbia government just to finish what the French envisioned! GPS, developed privately for the military, not by the military!

And now you want them to handle your health care.

You do realize, don't you, that just because you can bring up a few problems doesn't make your argument?

Example, there wouldn't even be an interstate highway system if not built by the government, no private entity or entities would construct it. The fact there is need of repair is a result of mostly Republicans not funding those sort of things, not that there is some inherent weakness in government's ability to construct transportation systems.

Nor would there have been a moonshot, the technologies of which you, I, and many private enterprises are benefitting from immensely. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

And I'd appreciate an aswer to my earlier questions if you've got the time.


dr_feelgood


Sep 22, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Man, the soapbox hasn't been this heated since the last time enigma went off of her meds.


DougMartin


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hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
The government has no business in health care and the government is not responsible for anyone's health.

Hey Doug, I’m curious as to why you think government has no business in health care, can you explain that for me?

And a follow-up, what do you think government does have business in?


DougMartin wrote:
we don't need the federal or any other government organization to do it for us all while taking their two cents from the pie!!

It’s interesting that you chose the words “two cents”, because when government provides health care it does it with an administrative overhead of about 2%, whereas the insurance industry has a typical overhead of about 18%.

So you prefer paying 18 cents on your dollar rather than 2 cents? I’m cool if you like to pay more, but I’d prefer that you don’t force me to have to pay more as well.

First read the Constitution that will tell you what the government should be involved in and its not much!

Second- Assuming your referring to Medicare overhead. Low administrative cost are not the only factor when comparing actual cost. They are of course one that supports your position but not telling of the true nature of government run health care. There is not even any consistency between two government agencies that both provide some type of health care.

"For example, Medicare pays as much as eight times what other federal agencies pay for the same drugs and medical supplies.[6] The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently compared the prices paid by Medicare and the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) health care program for 16 types of medical equipment and supplies, which account for one-quarter of Medicare's equipment and supplies purchases. The evidence showed that Medicare paid an average of more than double what the VA paid for the same items. The largest difference was for saline solution, with Medicare paying $8.26 per liter compared to the $1.02 paid by the VA.[7]"

This was published in 2005, long before the health care issue was addressed! They found that medicare paid double what other have.

Here's a link to it...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2005/04/The-Top-Ten-Reasons-for-Medicaid-Reform#_ftn7

Yet you would like to see them in charge of your health care!

And man, I hate researching this again! I need to go climb something. I realize I am never going to change anybodies opinion nor are they going to change mine! Government is to big period, and both sides need to stop making it bigger.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 1:33 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
"For example, Medicare pays as much as eight times what other federal agencies pay for the same drugs and medical supplies.[6] The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) recently compared the prices paid by Medicare and the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) health care program for 16 types of medical equipment and supplies, which account for one-quarter of Medicare's equipment and supplies purchases. The evidence showed that Medicare paid an average of more than double what the VA paid for the same items. The largest difference was for saline solution, with Medicare paying $8.26 per liter compared to the $1.02 paid by the VA.[7]"

This was published in 2005, long before the health care issue was addressed! They found that medicare paid double what other have.

So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?

DougMartin wrote:
Yet you would like to see them in charge of your health care!

What do you even mean by this, "in charge of your health care"??

DougMartin wrote:
I realize I am never going to change anybodies opinion nor are they going to change mine!

That's where you are wrong. I am perfectly happy to change my opinion about this or any other topic, provided a rational argument that actually makes sense. Unlike your position, which is driven solely by the "government is too big" dogma. Kind of sad, really.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 1:34 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
Man, the soapbox hasn't been this heated since the last time enigma went off of her meds.

Gives me something to do on a rainy afternoon. Nothing like seeing how many bleeding hearts I can offend! The only other option is work, and that just sucks!


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 1:47 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
First read the Constitution that will tell you what the government should be involved in and its not much!

I’m pretty familiar with the Constitution, and it gives the government power to do lots and lots of things that aren’t specifically enumerated therein but have been confirmed by the court over many years.

So let me ask you this. Do you think government should provide an interstate highway system, or an air transportation system, or fire departments? And if so, how are those accounted for in the Constitution?


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 1:47 PM
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"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.


"What do you even mean by this, "in charge of your health care"?"

Are you serious! Where have you been the last few years. Quit splitting hairs you know exactly what I am talking about. You sound like Bill Clinton and his "that depends on what the definition of "IS" is"

Now time for dinner and then on to a meeting with other addicts like me! See you all later!


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 1:50 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 1:53 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"

Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

Weak.

DougMartin wrote:
"What do you even mean by this, "in charge of your health care"?"

Are you serious! Where have you been the last few years. Quit splitting hairs you know exactly what I am talking about. You sound like Bill Clinton and his "that depends on what the definition of "IS" is"

Weaker.

Let me try the last one again: what do you mean when you say you don't want the government "in charge of your health care"?

For bonus points, tell me how your answer differs in terms of not wanting an insurance company in charge of your health care.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 1:55 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

Government bad. Not government good. Repeat the mantra.

That's all we're gonna get out of Doug's posts I'm afraid...


carabiner96


Sep 22, 2011, 2:01 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
Man, the soapbox hasn't been this heated since the last time enigma went off of her meds.

Gives me something to do on a rainy afternoon. Nothing like seeing how many bleeding hearts I can offend! The only other option is work, and that just sucks!
I get it now.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 2:04 PM
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ubu wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

Government bad. Not government good. Repeat the mantra.

That's all we're gonna get out of Doug's posts I'm afraid...

And it took you how long to understand this?

We can always talk about how Perry required vaccinations for teenage girls!


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 2:08 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
ubu wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

Government bad. Not government good. Repeat the mantra.

That's all we're gonna get out of Doug's posts I'm afraid...

And it took you how long to understand this?

We can always talk about how Perry required vaccinations for teenage girls!

So you're either admitting to being a troll, which I don't believe for a second, or you're taking the coward's way out to avoid having to defend your statements in this thread? Way to go champ. Either way: buh bye.


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 2:10 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

If it happened within the same company, then yes I would also say they are incompetent and inconsistent!


DougMartin


Sep 22, 2011, 2:28 PM
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ubu wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
ubu wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

Government bad. Not government good. Repeat the mantra.

That's all we're gonna get out of Doug's posts I'm afraid...

And it took you how long to understand this?

We can always talk about how Perry required vaccinations for teenage girls!

So you're either admitting to being a troll, which I don't believe for a second, or you're taking the coward's way out to avoid having to defend your statements in this thread? Way to go champ. Either way: buh bye.

Its got nothing to do with being a troll. its all about keeping government out of our private affairs! Government involved equals Government control! I for one don't want government in control of my life, I can screw it up enough all by myself!

Look at other social reforms such as Social Security- how are they working out? The great new deal has lead to many people being dependent on the government (us) for existence. I often wonder how those that grew old long ago survived without social security. Hummmmm ,That is another interesting question!


atg200


Sep 22, 2011, 2:37 PM
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hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 2:49 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

If it happened within the same company, then yes I would also say they are incompetent and inconsistent!

Ok well it does happen like that. Also, keep in mind that a single government agency or department is larger than most companies, so comparing "the government" as a single entity to a company is not a very valid comparison.

But aside from that, what I'm trying to get to the bottom of is why you think government shouldn't be doing certain things. Can you answer my previous question about highways, planes, and fire trucks?


tradpuppy


Sep 22, 2011, 3:05 PM
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Is Ron Paul a member of the Tea Party? I can't find any solid evidence to verify that he is.
And Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years. Like the guy who wrote "fuck you" above. He's a reeeaaal nice fella to know, I bet Laugh


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 3:22 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
atg200 wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!

No it doesn't - history shows that the US government tends to do large scale projects better than any other entity on earth. Good examples of this are the interstate highway system, moon landing, hubble telescope and space exploration probes, GPS, the Panama Canal, the Manhattan Project, the invention and early development of the internet, the human genome project, etc.

Highways are in great need of repair due to lack of maintenance and mis-management. Hubble telescope broke. The moon landing was just another way the United states showed off. And the internet, since when did the government invent it, oh yeah it was Al Gore! I forgot! The Panama Canal, are you forgetting the fact that we supported overthrowing the Columbia government just to finish what the French envisioned! GPS, developed privately for the military, not by the military!

And now you want them to handle your health care.

WOW!!!!!! You are clueless...

Please disregard my attempts to get you to answer my questions, as you are incapable of it of forming any well reasoned arguments, as you have nothing to base it on other than a skewed view of reality.

You really are qualified to be a Tea Party Candidate for President.


"The trouble with the world isn't that people know too little, but that they know so much that just ain't so."
~Mark Twain


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 3:24 PM)


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 3:22 PM
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tradpuppy wrote:
Is Ron Paul a member of the Tea Party? I can't find any solid evidence to verify that he is.
And Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years. Like the guy who wrote "fuck you" above. He's a reeeaaal nice fella to know, I bet Laugh

For the record, I am certainly not a "compassionate liberal" nor am I even a liberal, unless you want to make that judgement by modern Republican standards.

I didn't leave the Republican party, the Republican party left me. Hell, at this point they even left the original purveyor of that quote. When you've ditched the purported idol of your party, what do you have left?


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 3:25 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
atg200 wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Now, let me clarify my position; our health care system is broke but letting government handle it is not the solution. They will simply make it worse. History supports this!

No it doesn't - history shows that the US government tends to do large scale projects better than any other entity on earth. Good examples of this are the interstate highway system, moon landing, hubble telescope and space exploration probes, GPS, the Panama Canal, the Manhattan Project, the invention and early development of the internet, the human genome project, etc.

Highways are in great need of repair due to lack of maintenance and mis-management. Hubble telescope broke. The moon landing was just another way the United states showed off. And the internet, since when did the government invent it, oh yeah it was Al Gore! I forgot! The Panama Canal, are you forgetting the fact that we supported overthrowing the Columbia government just to finish what the French envisioned! GPS, developed privately for the military, not by the military!

And now you want them to handle your health care.

WOW!!!!!! You are clueless...

Please disregard my attempts to get you to answer my questions, as you are incapable of it of forming any well reasoned arguments, as you have nothing to base it on other than a skewed view of reality.

You really are qualified to be a Tea Party Candidate for President.

Like I said, he has but one comment to make: "government it too big", even though he can't articulate what that means or argue why it is so. It's just a meaningless mantra, repeated ad infinitum as part of the exercise in group meditation that has become so popular since Obama came to the Presidency.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 3:28 PM
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ubu wrote:
It's just a meaningless mantra, repeated ad infinitum as part of the exercise in group meditation that has become so popular since Obama came to the Presidency.

aka Circle Jerk


dr_feelgood


Sep 22, 2011, 3:36 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
ubu wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
"So...you're comparing one government agency...against another government agency...to show what exactly?"


Incompetence and inconsistency in our federal government in regards to the health care programs it currently manages.

So if we can also see difference between private health care providers would you also assess their performance as incompetent and inconsistent?

Government bad. Not government good. Repeat the mantra.

That's all we're gonna get out of Doug's posts I'm afraid...

And it took you how long to understand this?

We can always talk about how Perry required vaccinations for teenage girls!

Yes please. Let me start off with a few words.

Gardasil would dramatically reduce the risk of cervical cancer. His type seems content to use cervical cancer as a mechanism of slut shaming.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 3:40 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
Now time for dinner and then on to a meeting with other addicts like me! See you all later!

Huh? Are you a friend of Jimmy K's? If so, then you and I have somehting in common. And, if so, I would suggest that you work on 3, 6, and 7, in order to get the self-will and ego out of the way.

Like the Basic text says in Chapter 7, "To improve ourselves takes effort, and since there is no way in the world to graft a new idea on a closed mind, an opening must be made somehow."


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 3:41 PM)


traddad


Sep 22, 2011, 3:42 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
ubu wrote:
It's just a meaningless mantra, repeated ad infinitum as part of the exercise in group meditation that has become so popular since Obama came to the Presidency.

aka Circle Jerk

Hollow but incendiary catch phrases like "big government" are how you keep an under educated and willfully ignorant rabble roused. It's also how you fool them into voting against their own best interest. This is profitable in the long term and thus well supported by corporations.
Of course the stooges are rarely self observant....so, lets have some more tea!


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 3:43 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
there is no way in the world to graft a new idea on a closed mind

I like that.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 3:52 PM
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ubu wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
there is no way in the world to graft a new idea on a closed mind

I like that.

Me too... Or, as Bruce Lee once said:
"A closed mind cannot think freely."


In his defense, it seams his mind is open enough that all this relatively new Tea Party crap has influenced him so profoundly in such a short time... Therefore, perhaps this one really applies:
"It is good to have an open mind...
Just not so open that your brain falls out."



(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 3:59 PM)


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 4:21 PM
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traddad wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
ubu wrote:
It's just a meaningless mantra, repeated ad infinitum as part of the exercise in group meditation that has become so popular since Obama came to the Presidency.

aka Circle Jerk

Hollow but incendiary catch phrases like "big government" are how you keep an under educated and willfully ignorant rabble roused. It's also how you fool them into voting against their own best interest. This is profitable in the long term and thus well supported by corporations.
Of course the stooges are rarely self observant....so, lets have some more tea!

One of these days I'm going to write up my government-vs-market white paper that explains the specific sitiuations where 'the market' performs extremely poorly at effecting desired outcomes, and the economic reasons why.

I’ve identified five conditions where market-based systems perform extremely poorly, they are:

• Long-term strategic planning required
• Large collective benefit present that is unsequesterable within a market transaction
• Competition detrimental to desired outcomes
• Value-chain tension detrimental to desired outcomes
• Large scale R&D required

If we have something we want to achieve, as a nation, state, or community, and it happens to fit any of the above conditions, then government is possibly our best option.

Health care fits all 5 of those conditions, so it should come as no surprise that our system is about the worst one can imagine at achieving desired outcomes.

Not that the willfully ignorant 'government bad' crowd would understand any of it.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 22, 2011, 4:55 PM
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DougMartin wrote:
Oh, and I love being nebulous! Its in a social workers [sic] DNA!

Given the above, and his profile saying he is a "counselor"... I wonder how much of his paycheck directly or indirectly comes from the government? The one he says should not be paying for "social" things.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 22, 2011, 4:56 PM)


hugepedro


Sep 22, 2011, 5:06 PM
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atg200 wrote:
In reply to:
I often wonder how those that grew old long ago survived without social security. Hummmmm ,That is another interesting question!

If they weren't rich, they worked until they died, which was generally early.

And the leading cause of death among the elderly was poverty, or rather the results of poverty - lack of shelter, nutrition, and health care. Ahhh, if only we could return to the good old days of yesteryear, when we had old people dying in the streets.


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 5:20 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
DougMartin wrote:
Oh, and I love being nebulous! Its in a social workers [sic] DNA!

Given the above, and his profile saying he is a "counselor"... I wonder how much of his paycheck directly or indirectly comes from the government? The one he says should not be paying for "social" things.

Heh.

Is hypocrisy a prerequisite for being a conservative these days? Oh wait...


ubu


Sep 22, 2011, 5:20 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
atg200 wrote:
In reply to:
I often wonder how those that grew old long ago survived without social security. Hummmmm ,That is another interesting question!

If they weren't rich, they worked until they died, which was generally early.

And the leading cause of death among the elderly was poverty, or rather the results of poverty - lack of shelter, nutrition, and health care. Ahhh, if only we could return to the good old days of yesteryear, when we had old people dying in the streets.

The only difference is this time we'll have a cheering squad to see them off.


atg200


Sep 22, 2011, 5:29 PM
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traddad


Sep 22, 2011, 6:24 PM
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atg200 wrote:
Perhaps Haliburton will figure out a way to render poor useless old people into biofuel.

Ding Ding Ding!


curt


Sep 22, 2011, 6:40 PM
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traddad wrote:
atg200 wrote:
Perhaps Haliburton will figure out a way to render poor useless old people into biofuel.

Ding Ding Ding!

Fill 'er up with Soylent, please. Cool

Curt


hugepedro


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ubu wrote:
hugepedro wrote:
atg200 wrote:
In reply to:
I often wonder how those that grew old long ago survived without social security. Hummmmm ,That is another interesting question!

If they weren't rich, they worked until they died, which was generally early.

And the leading cause of death among the elderly was poverty, or rather the results of poverty - lack of shelter, nutrition, and health care. Ahhh, if only we could return to the good old days of yesteryear, when we had old people dying in the streets.

The only difference is this time we'll have a cheering squad to see them off.

Look kids, over there are some old people dying! Hahahahaha! See? You'd better try to get a gold star this week on your portfolio. You don't want to end up like them, do you?


veganclimber


Sep 22, 2011, 8:28 PM
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Re: [curt] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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These scumbags just can't help themselves.

"Audience Boos Gay Soldier At GOP Debate, Santorum Promises To Reinstate Don't Ask, Don't Tell "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtzOjAWGIE


traddad


Sep 22, 2011, 8:35 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
These scumbags just can't help themselves.

"Audience Boos Gay Soldier At GOP Debate, Santorum Promises To Reinstate Don't Ask, Don't Tell "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtzOjAWGIE

The party of hate and death.


pinktricam


Sep 22, 2011, 10:26 PM
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Re: [tradpuppy] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

(This post was edited by pinktricam on Sep 22, 2011, 10:27 PM)


veganclimber


Sep 22, 2011, 10:34 PM
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Re: [pinktricam] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

Were you in the audience at that debate? I thought I heard you so I was just wondering.


ubu


Sep 23, 2011, 3:20 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

There is a vast difference between "mean-spirited" and "intolerant of idiocy".


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 23, 2011, 5:21 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

Ummmmmmmmmm...
veganclimber wrote:
These scumbags just can't help themselves.

"Audience Boos Gay Soldier At GOP Debate, Santorum Promises To Reinstate Don't Ask, Don't Tell "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKtzOjAWGIE


Again... Proof positive that you cannot "find" things even when they are right in front of your face.




(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 23, 2011, 5:29 AM)


traddad


Sep 23, 2011, 6:51 AM
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"rrrADAM wrote:
Again... Proof positive that you cannot "find" things even when they are right in front of your face.


When your Fundie lifestyle choice requires complete denial of reality and common sense, you HAVE to have good data filters. Otherwise, life might make the rainbows and pink ponies cry.


hugepedro


Sep 23, 2011, 8:08 AM
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

I agree. This bunch is probably so mean-spirited they would cheer killing and people dying because of lack of healthcare, and boo an active duty soldier in Iraq. Bunch of a-holes I tell ya.


traddad


Sep 23, 2011, 8:25 AM
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Re: [hugepedro] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

I agree. This bunch is probably so mean-spirited they would cheer killing and people dying because of lack of healthcare, and boo an active duty soldier in Iraq. Bunch of a-holes I tell ya.

Republicans: The party of hate and death.


Allfred


Sep 23, 2011, 8:27 AM
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You mean guys always scare away the $30,000 per year republicans!


(This post was edited by Allfred on Sep 23, 2011, 8:27 AM)


curt


Sep 24, 2011, 11:37 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

It's a shame you don't own a mirror.

Curt


robbovius


Sep 26, 2011, 4:15 AM
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.


when I read this I thought two things:

1. "this won't end well.."

and

2. "this is pretty easily refutable..."


traddad


Sep 26, 2011, 6:13 AM
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pinktricam wrote:
tradpuppy wrote:
Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years...

I whole-heartedly agree. It would be tough to find a more nasty and mean-spirited bunch anywhere.

Mean spirited:
The the act of being giddy as a school girl over the belief that others will spend an eternity in damnation, pain and sorrow and you will not, simply because of the silly club you (think you) belong to.


chadnsc


Sep 26, 2011, 7:43 AM
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DougMartin wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
Man, the soapbox hasn't been this heated since the last time enigma went off of her meds.

Gives me something to do on a rainy afternoon. Nothing like seeing how many bleeding hearts I can offend! The only other option is work, and that just sucks!


So you're saying that you'd rather go off your meds and troll here than work? I dunno, by you not working you're forcing me to help pay for those meds you're not taking. You're a socialist! Tongue


chadnsc


Sep 26, 2011, 7:49 AM
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tradpuppy wrote:
Is Ron Paul a member of the Tea Party? I can't find any solid evidence to verify that he is.
And Doug, just so you know, these are not "compassionate" liberals at all. They only play at it when it helps their argument. Otherwise, they are nasty and mean spirited. Just go back and explore some of their posts from the past few years. Like the guy who wrote "fuck you" above. He's a reeeaaal nice fella to know, I bet Laugh


Ten months in between posts and this is the best you can do? Go back and read what Doug's been posting and take notes.


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 26, 2011, 12:29 PM
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Exerpts from a well written letter to editor of one of my local papers, in a SouthEast, very RED state...
In reply to:
...at the end of WWll, facing a huge war National Debt, larger proportionately then today’s debt, Washington increased spending to rebuild Europe, culminating in the 1948 Marshall Plan, then funded the GI Bills that gave free education to almost 8 million vets, along with a years’ unemployment payments and heavily subsidized home loans, raised the minimum wage to 250% of the original amount, funded the Eisenhower Interstate Highway infrastructure program, all while maintaining a maximum tax rate of 91% on the richer folks . (Eisenhower refused to lower taxes as long as there was a budget deficit. A true Republican Conservative)

By the mid 1950’s it was those millions of taxpayer educated engineers, managers, scientists , accountants and technicians who were the driving force behind America’s growth for decades to come.

All in all, the history of that post war period seems a pretty good argument to reject current Tea Party Republican cost cutting anti government views ... Unfortunately hard facts do to get in the way of ideological positions...


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 26, 2011, 12:30 PM)


traddad


Sep 28, 2011, 6:26 AM
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The party of hate and death.

In reply to:

A few weeks ago I profiled Nezar Hamze, a Muslim activist and Republican in south Florida whose quest to join a local GOP committee prompted accusations that he is un-American and that Islam is incompatible with the Constitution.

Last night, the Broward Republican Executive Committee met to consider Hamze's application to become a voting member, a meeting that ended with him being called a "terrorist' by hecklers and an unprecedented 158-11 vote to deny him membership.

The usually perfunctory approval process for BREC membership was changed at the meeting in order to publicly vet Hamze and to then vote on his application using a secret ballot. He was the only one of 11 candidates rejected.

http://www.salon.com/...a_gop_rejects_muslim


dr_feelgood


Sep 28, 2011, 11:19 AM
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Rick Perry wants to end the direct election of Senators. [In reply to]
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For Serious.

In reply to:
Texas Governor Rick Perry has brought to the race for the Republican presidential nomination a radical antidemocracy stance borrowed from the far-right fringe that once expressed itself at John Birch Society meetings but has now entered the mainstream of the Grand Old Party.
Perry’s particular extremism seeks to limit the role of voters at the national level of American politics: he would end the direct election of senators. But his candidacy highlights a broader agenda of Republican governors, who have been moving in recent months to diminish state and local democracy by undermining the authority of local elected officials, who tend to be the ones most accountable to the people. Those governors are instead shifting power to statewide executives, who are more accountable to the billionaire campaign donors and business interests that were freed by the Supreme Court’s 2010 Citizens United decision to buy the election results that most favor their interests.

http://www.thenation.com/...rys-attack-democracy


Partner rrrADAM


Sep 28, 2011, 11:50 AM
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Re: [traddad] Tea Party accidentally reveals their true nature... [In reply to]
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traddad wrote:
The party of hate and death.

In reply to:

A few weeks ago I profiled Nezar Hamze, a Muslim activist and Republican in south Florida whose quest to join a local GOP committee prompted accusations that he is un-American and that Islam is incompatible with the Constitution.

Last night, the Broward Republican Executive Committee met to consider Hamze's application to become a voting member, a meeting that ended with him being called a "terrorist' by hecklers and an unprecedented 158-11 vote to deny him membership.

The usually perfunctory approval process for BREC membership was changed at the meeting in order to publicly vet Hamze and to then vote on his application using a secret ballot. He was the only one of 11 candidates rejected.

http://www.salon.com/...a_gop_rejects_muslim


WWJD? Unimpressed


curt


Oct 4, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Atta boy, Hank.

Yahoo Sports wrote:
Hank Williams Jr....compared President Barack Obama to Adolf Hitler during a Monday morning appearance on "Fox and Friends." The statement led to ESPN pulling his popular intro segment, best known to fans for its "Are you ready for some football?"

http://sports.yahoo.com/...res-O?urn=nfl-wp8592

Curt


pinktricam


Oct 6, 2011, 7:40 PM
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It would've probably hurt him less if he'd actually just shot himself in the foot.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 7, 2011, 4:40 AM
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pinktricam wrote:
It would've probably hurt him less if he'd actually just shot himself in the foot.

Good one, pink! Smile


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