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How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!?
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qwert


Sep 18, 2011, 3:13 AM
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How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!?
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Last weekend i finally managed to get out again.
~4 hours approach
one of the few huts in the alps that are not full blown hotels
11 pitches


Thats all nice and good, but:
We knew that there where at max 4 pitons in the whole 11 pitches. And given that those where probably from 1921 (from the looks, they indeed where) a full trad rack was demanded.

And thats where the problems start. 11 pitches is not too much, and it was only 5.8 at max, but still we knew
a) we hat to be rather fast, because we did not want to get caught in the wall, or even at the descent by the forecasted thunderstorm
b) we didnt really have a clue what kind of gear we needed. Guidebook just said full rack of stoppers, cams and a bunch of slings

So we took 1.5 sets of nuts, and a full set of camalots from .3 to 2, with doubles for .75, 1 and 2, 8 slings/long QDs, bunch of 120cm slings, and a hand full of lockers and some assorted crap + emergency hammer+pitons, rain jacket, 1l of water per person, some granola bars, rainjacket and shoes for the descent.

Damn, that crap was heavy!
And in the way all the times!
And a bitch to manage on the harness!
And of those few pieces we needed we didnt have enough (hence at max we placed 3 pieces per pitch, but we didnt want to place much more anyways, since that would have slowed us down even more) and most of the stuff was useless anyways!

And when i read around here, it seems like this actually was a fairly minimal rack.

How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?

Are you all total super heros that dont mind the extra wheight at all?
Is 'trad' in fact a codeword for "hiking with the occasional steep step" and no one climbs harder than 5.8 anyways?
Or are the cliches true that all americans are in fact that fat that a few dozend extra pounds simply do not get noticed while you are landwhaling your blorted self up that multi day, with artificial oxigen 3 pitches 5.2 rx trad testpieces just right next to the NASCAR track?

I am demanding an explanation!

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Sep 18, 2011, 3:14 AM)
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JimTitt


Sep 18, 2011, 4:34 AM
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Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack!
I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc).
Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977.

On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup!

Jim


socalclimber


Sep 18, 2011, 4:47 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack!
I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc).
Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977.

On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup!

Jim

Uh, well I can't agree with drilling the shit out of the route. Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.


sbaclimber


Sep 18, 2011, 5:01 AM
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qwert wrote:
Looks sweet! Where is it?

It sounds like you took a little too much for the alps (IMO, and only based on my limited experience).
Personally, if I am going light but figure I will need doubles, my rack =
10 trad draws
1x set stoppers
1x set cams (BD .3-3)
1x set tri-cams (.125-3)

The tri-cams serve as doubles from a mid-sized stopper up to about the #2 cam.
The cams are still a killer for weight though...Pirate


qwert


Sep 18, 2011, 5:05 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack!
I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc).
Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977.

On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup!

Jim
You are a brit in germany, so you are not really the person i am trying to get answers from.
Pegs and hammer - the rock is a really slick Gneiss with lots of lichen, so pitons would have been the only option in case of a surprise rain.
And bolts? Well, that mountain is probably one of the few spots in the whole alps where you dont find a single bolt, and its supposed to stay that way!

qwert


qwert


Sep 18, 2011, 5:09 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.
Nah, worked like a charm!
Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in.

But the question remains:
-how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them
-how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways

qwert


socalclimber


Sep 18, 2011, 5:47 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.
Nah, worked like a charm!
Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in.

But the question remains:
-how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them
-how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways

qwert

Well, the route is definitely an alpine route. You could consider the link cams. A handful of those and some stoppers and slings would probably serve you well.

Great looking route by the way. Was it good?


julio412


Sep 18, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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Things have changed since the 20's Qwert.
For one, pitches were probably only like a 100'(30m)
So, you're only really looking at 5&1/2 pitches in today's world.
If you've ever climbed anything other than sport, well, you carry a rack... on a gear sling; pretty simple really, once you've done once or twice.
Also, you can carry a small pack; like a true mountaineer.
Oh, and by the way, Walter Bonatti died the other day, and no one, no one ,on rc.com, seems to care.
Who the hell are you?
M


shockabuku


Sep 18, 2011, 7:04 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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Put the extra shit in a small pack and make the second carry it.

Otherwise yeah, shit is heavy and gets in the way. Some people like over the shoulder gear slings, some don't.

I don't carry a hammer or pins though - that steel shit is heavy.

And if you're only placing three pieces per pitch, don't bring as much. Certainly not all eight draws and a "bunch" of 120 cm slings. Probably not the redundant .75-2 cams.


qwert


Sep 18, 2011, 7:28 AM
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Re: [sbaclimber] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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sbaclimber wrote:
qwert wrote:
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=5966;[/image]
Looks sweet! Where is it?
Pflunspitzen, a tad under 3000m, in the Middle of the Verwall region, Austria. Strangely quite remote, given that it is actually right next to the famous Arlberg skiing region

In reply to:
It sounds like you took a little too much for the alps
Yeah, i figured that out too. But since we hadnt any beta besides "full rack", and we both arent too used to gneiss…
But it does not sound too much more than your rack!
In reply to:
The tri-cams serve as doubles from a mid-sized stopper up to about the #2 cam.
I wanted the tricams, but my buddy refused to take them with us!


socalclimber wrote:
Well, the route is definitely an alpine route. You could consider the link cams. A handful of those and some stoppers and slings would probably serve you well.

Great looking route by the way. Was it good?
It was in the alps, so yes, it was alpine, but the climbing would still fall under trad, which translates back to the term "Alpin" in german, even if its trad outside of the alps, so i am in a kind of conundrum…

Yes, the link cams would help with the "how the hell do i know which sizes i need the most" problem, but i am not really sure about their use for me, given that i climb limestone most of the time, where irregular placements that are rather bad for cams in general, and for links especially so, prevail!

But it was good anyways The climb was quite nice, as was the view, and that we didnt have hundreds of people around us was also a refreshing change. As i said, we managed without any problems, but this time i really realized that i took too much shit with me.

julio412 wrote:
Things have changed since the 20's Qwert.
For one, pitches were probably only like a 100'(30m)
So, you're only really looking at 5&1/2 pitches in today's world.
Apart from 1 20m pitch, it was all between 45 and 55m. All in all a tad under 500m
In reply to:
If you've ever climbed anything other than sport, well, you carry a rack... on a gear sling; pretty simple really, once you've done once or twice.
Dont worry, i climb not only sport. Actually i had the cams on a sling, but there they where in the way even more, especially on the few low angle pitches.
In reply to:
Also, you can carry a small pack; like a true mountaineer.
Of course we had packs. That seemed so obvious that i did not mention it.
In reply to:
Oh, and by the way, Walter Bonatti died the other day, and no one, no one ,on rc.com, seems to care.
Who the hell are you?
M
Yes, i read about that. Why I do not care? I dont really care about "stars", so i am not talking about those people much, no matter if they are a true legend of the "sport" or a new kid that runs up all kinds of 5.20 impossible stuff.
Why do YOU not seem to care?
Who i am? Just a n00b who occasionally climbs around in the alps and the alb since about 10 years.

shockabuku wrote:
And if you're only placing three pieces per pitch, don't bring as much. Certainly not all eight draws and a "bunch" of 120 cm slings. Probably not the redundant .75-2 cams.
But how do i know what i will need?
Ironically the redundant cams where the most usefull pieces…

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Sep 18, 2011, 7:35 AM)


qwert


Sep 18, 2011, 7:34 AM
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Oh, and i hope i do not come across as being a total clueless noob!

Somehow most of the answers are way to serious, considering that i thought that my OP had a rather sarcastic tone, aiming at all those "rack threads" and "what brand for a second set of cams", "how many of XX and YY do i need?" threads and those "i have doubles of XX and YY, and also triples of ZZ and some additional XY on my rack" statements that one encounters of this here site all the time, that imply (at least to my european brain) that most people do in fact carry racks all the time, to which our 1.5 sets of stoppers and sub double digits amount of cams with 8 draws/slings and some other stuff still seems rather minimal!

qwert


potreroed


Sep 18, 2011, 7:57 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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Welcome to trad climbing. When you do enuff of it you learn to trim your rack to bare necessities and you get used to carrying all that gear, placing all gear, removing all that gear, re-racking all that gear, building your own anchors etc, etc. Makes you really appreciate sport climbing--especially here in Potrero Chico where you can climb big walls with a single rope and a dozen draws.


sungam


Sep 18, 2011, 8:29 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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Looks like a fun route, brah.

But it sounds like you have not yet learned the art of tricking your partner into carrying everything Wink


coastal_climber


Sep 18, 2011, 8:31 AM
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Go climb a wall, then you won't think that's heavy


sbaclimber


Sep 18, 2011, 8:57 AM
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qwert wrote:
In reply to:
It sounds like you took a little too much for the alps
Yeah, i figured that out too. But since we hadnt any beta besides "full rack", and we both arent too used to gneiss…
But it does not sound too much more than your rack!
In reply to:
The tri-cams serve as doubles from a mid-sized stopper up to about the #2 cam.
I wanted the tricams, but my buddy refused to take them with us!
That's a problem...
No, you're right though, your rack wasn't much more than I would've taken. Trad climbing simply often requires taking that much with you. You will get used to it with practice. Tongue

I was doing 25-30m pitches of 5.7-5.9 with the rack I described (+ 1x set of lowe balls) on granite-like rock on Tuesday, and I found it to be the perfect rack. It only felt heavy while I was flailing up the start of the 5.9...Unimpressed


moose_droppings


Sep 18, 2011, 8:58 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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It's just part of the game when you climb routes with no beta.

I rope solo backcountry routes 90% of the time that haven't been done before by me or anyone as far as I know and carry almost as much as you guys did. One set of Met cams up to #8, set and a half of nuts, a couple of the larger hexes, 1-#2 pecker and 1 talon hook, 2 pink and red tricams, nut tool, belay device, cordelette, set of prusiks and a couple 4ft pieces of webbing, 8-2ft runners and 4-4ft runners and all my biners are as light as I can find, even lockers (all superfly's), which helps a little but it all still comes in a bit heavy.

I'd much rather have what is needed to succeed on these mystery routes than have to back off after the long walk to get to them. Your going to suffer some, no way around it in these circumstances. Harden the fuck up.
Wink


rtwilli4


Sep 18, 2011, 9:19 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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I just finished a road trip and one of the main issues at first was the difference in how much gear my partner and I wanted to take. She routinely takes tripples of some pieces and also has two link cams, which are rediculously heavy and not really all that useful. She also hangs shoes, rain jacket, extra fleece layer, gloves and a pretty big camera off her harness! Every time she would start up a lead I would think to myself "man, it would suck to be loaded down like that."

On the gear side I ended up giving in most of time time and just taking the extra pieces along. Sometimes it allowed us to do longer pitches and we were at the Needles for the last part of our trip so doubles from .3 to 2 is pretty standard anyway.

The way I cut down on having shit on my harness is having a small pack where I keep my water, shoes, bars, rain shell, tiny tiny headlamp, etc. I hate having that crap on my harness.

Also, I take as few quickdraws as possible. I like having 6 to 8 dyneema shoulder slings each w/ a single biner. The dyneema is very light and you're saving half a pound in biners.

Lockers are something else I like to leave behind. I flew to CA and only took a select amont of gear so I took lockers, but usually you can get away with only having three total, supplimented by a few Heliums which are full size but much lighter. Deciding before hand that you will belay off your harness instead of using an autoblock saves you a locker and for most applications a wiregate is fine.

In your case it might have helped to have a few hexes instead of the doubles on cams but you said you used them so...

Anyways, I feel you... how the fuck do people carry all that shit! If you look at the SuperTopo rack suggesstinos some of them are a bit crazy. If I'm climbing below my limit (which I think you were) then I'm carrying more nuts/tri-cams and fewer cams. But if I'm on something near my limit I'll typically have at least as much gear as you did, minus the hammer and pins of course, that's overkill. You can almost always leave stoppers.


(This post was edited by rtwilli4 on Sep 18, 2011, 9:25 AM)


6pacfershur


Sep 18, 2011, 9:37 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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heres my 50 cents worth....first, do a little more homework on what gear the route requires, guidebooks are just a start....second, americans are cam-crazy! most never learned chockcraft and hexes are the root of many n00b jokes; hexes are relatively light, inexpensive (no problem leaving them behind) and in my opinion, perfect for alpine rock


Rudmin


Sep 18, 2011, 9:59 AM
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If the climbing isn't all that difficult, I figure I can always make do with the gear I have on me, so why not take less gear? four cams, eight nuts, 6 tripled up draws, maybe a double length piece of webbing.

If you never run out of your draws and biners, then you are carrying too many. If you are carrying more than twice as many pieces of protection as you have slings, then you are carrying too many.

If you run out of either runners or protection, then get creative or belay up your second. While simuling a ridgeline traverse, the second had all of the gear, so just draped the rope into a crack and jammed a rock on top to keep it from lifting out.


bearbreeder


Sep 18, 2011, 10:10 AM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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12 draws/slings
1 set of link cams and blue/purple TCU (or swap with camalots) and MAYBE a #3 camalot
1 set of nuts
1 set of tricams
1 6 oz wind or rain shell
1 R1 style fleece
water depending on route
power bars
MAYBE 5 oz down jacket or 13 oz synth hoody
MAYBE a light bullet pack
first aid kit, matches
cell phone

the above will get me up the vast majority of 5.8 or less routes ... its actually overkill IMO as it gives double cams and nuts (tricams can be used as either) ...

you only need double cams at 5.10 or above IMO, or if the route specifically requires wide gear ... usually the stances are good enough at the lower grades to easily place and remove tricams/nuts

the tricams save a lot of weight ... a full set equivalent to the camalot 0.3-2 weight less than 400g

the other alternative is to use solely tricams, nuts and a few TCUs, i would do this for many of the 5.8 or below routes down here .... or even bring singles

if yr confident ... unless its sustained 5.8 climbing, and 5.8 trad is your limit, or its sandbagged to hell ... you place less gear and move faster

the people who move fast in squamish, and i suspect the rest of the world, simply put very little gear in except at the cruxes ... obviously there is a risk there .... i know people who do easy 18+ pitch 5.9 routes up the chief with no more than slings, 6 draws and a full set of nuts ...

the question to ask is did u place all that gear ... and if you did, did you really need to?

and make sure everything is as light as possible, im not a gram weenie ... but my 6 oz rain shell that replaced my 26 oz one means 4 #1 camalots or 1/2 liter of water ... etc ...


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Sep 18, 2011, 10:37 AM)


rtwilli4


Sep 18, 2011, 10:26 AM
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It all depends on the route. Like bearbreeder says, if you're not climbing at your limit then you don't need to place a lot of gear. I can't stand belaying somoene on easy ground only to watch them place a piece every 6 or 8 feet. Not only does it mean you have to carry more gear, but it takes more time to place that gear, takes even MORE time to clean it, and the more gear you place, the shorter pitches you must climb.

There can be a big difference in 5.8 and 5.9, but again I agree with bearbreeder. You don't need to be taking doubles in cams until you get into solid 5.10, where there aren't always good stances to fiddle with stoppers/tricams/hexes. On every 5.8 I've climbed and most 5.9's, even the hard ones, you are able to find stances that give you time to get in 100% bomber passive gear.

If you want to be protected every 6 feet from all of the "what ifs" then you should be sport climbing.

OP I know you understand this... I'm just sayin' it for others who may not.


petsfed


Sep 18, 2011, 11:43 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote:
There can be a big difference in 5.8 and 5.9, but again I agree with bearbreeder. You don't need to be taking doubles in cams until you get into solid 5.10, where there aren't always good stances to fiddle with stoppers/tricams/hexes. On every 5.8 I've climbed and most 5.9's, even the hard ones, you are able to find stances that give you time to get in 100% bomber passive gear.

Maybe I just climb in a crack intensive area, but I've been on a fair number of 5.8s that lacked placements for passive gear at the sections where the climbing had good stances. So, at my local area, I do typically carry a double set of cams with just a single set of nuts.

That said, when I was climbing bigger alpine routes on a regular basis, we never packed anything bigger than a #3 camalot, carried singles from tips to hands, a single set of nuts, and no pins or hammers. On quartzite. Part of being effective in the alpine realm, part of keeping the weight down, is being comfortable with intentional runouts so you don't carry as much gear. 2-3 pieces in a 50m pitch is not so bad if it isn't the crux pitch.


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 18, 2011, 1:35 PM
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Qwert wrote:

In reply to:
“Actually i had the cams on a sling, but there they where in the way even more, especially on the few low angle pitches.”

The default in climbing long routes is the gear on a sling, but if it gets low-angle, switch the gear to the harness.

When I started climbing all gear was on slings (1” tubular webbing), since we didn’t have harnesses but tied in directly into the rope with a bowline on a bight around the waist. On low angle stuff, we clipped the sling carrying the gear to a second sling over the opposite shoulder. The attachment was in the back. This kept the gear sling from hanging down and obscuring vision and being in the way in general.

Like others have suggested Tricams work as great weight savers.

Rob.calm


guangzhou


Sep 18, 2011, 6:39 PM
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robdotcalm wrote:
Qwert wrote:

In reply to:
“Actually i had the cams on a sling, but there they where in the way even more, especially on the few low angle pitches.”

The default in climbing long routes is the gear on a sling, but if it gets low-angle, switch the gear to the harness.

When I started climbing all gear was on slings (1” tubular webbing), since we didn’t have harnesses but tied in directly into the rope with a bowline on a bight around the waist. On low angle stuff, we clipped the sling carrying the gear to a second sling over the opposite shoulder. The attachment was in the back. This kept the gear sling from hanging down and obscuring vision and being in the way in general.

Like others have suggested Tricams work as great weight savers.

Rob.calm

I personally around gear slings 90% of the time. Can't stand them. The best thing that ever happened to my climbing was changing where I carried my gear.

Like some have mentioned above, every area has different gear requirements. I've climbed some 5.11 pitches where all I placed was nuts and some 5.8 pitches where I couldn't find a nut placement anywhere.

I agree that some people are to quick to use cams instead of nuts, but I also understand the logic of placing cams over nuts to move quickly. Personally, I can place nuts just as fast as cam in most cases, the placement directs. I feel better 40 feet above a well placed nut than I do 40 feet above and equally well placed cam. I know both will hold, but I love nuts and hexes.


dan2see


Sep 18, 2011, 7:23 PM
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qwert wrote:
...
How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?
... qwert

Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. Mad


climbingtrash


Sep 18, 2011, 7:45 PM
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dan2see wrote:
qwert wrote:
...
How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?
... qwert

Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. Mad

Does this phucking PTFTW piss you oft too?

Climbing with a heavy rack is just what you do...or run it out a lot. A standard Zion free rack can get pretty heavy, especially if you're doing a route with a pitch of off-width.


(This post was edited by climbingtrash on Sep 18, 2011, 7:46 PM)


Partner rgold


Sep 18, 2011, 9:15 PM
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I've settled on an approach a bit different than what many folks seem to be saying, which is to pare things down.

Unless I'm climbing on a specialized route that needs a lot of pieces of the same size, I have a standard rack I use on everything---no editing at the start of the pitch---and it isn't all that different from the one you described, qwert.

If it is heavy and clumsy, I got used to that years ago; now it is like a comfy old pair of jeans, I barely notice it, I'm used to its tricks and annoyances, I know where everything is and what I'll use.

True, on many pitches I end up with much of the rack still with me, but on the other hand it isn't at all unusual to use up some of the doubles. Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.

So my answer isn't to get rid of this or substitute that. Your rack isn't exactly what i might have brought, but it sounded reasonable. I think the trick is to get used to it.


dan2see


Sep 18, 2011, 9:18 PM
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climbingtrash wrote:
dan2see wrote:
qwert wrote:
...
How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?
... qwert

Quit saying "fuck" it fuckin' pisses me off. Mad

Does this phucking PTFTW piss you oft too?

Climbing with a heavy rack is just what you do...or run it out a lot. A standard Zion free rack can get pretty heavy, especially if you're doing a route with a pitch of off-width.

No I have not visited Zion, or Yosemite, or the Alps.

But I play and explore a lot in the Canadian Rockies, so I do have experience hauling a heavy load up a steep mountain. Of course there's a limit to my strength and endurance, so my experience includes managing weight, logistics, and itinerary.

My favourite trick is to get as far and high as I can, stay there overnight, then the next day continue as ultra-light as possible. I've done this for climbing, scrambles, and just fun exploring.

But in any public place, I say rude is rude, so my post stays.


the_climber


Sep 18, 2011, 9:42 PM
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Heavy rack?! that's nothing.

Heavy is a full aid rack. What you described is a standard rack for many many locations and a light rack for others.


Look at it this way, if more "new wave" climbers tried to climb a classic route with what the FA's used they'd piss their pants... if the same climber's tried to climb a new route established ground up (classic style) with what the FA's carried they'd either piss their pants or claim their rack was too heavy to succeed on the climb.

Real climbers get used to it. sometimes it's heave, sometimes it's bold, sometimes it's just real and nothing else matters.


qwert


Sep 19, 2011, 5:16 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
If you never run out of your draws and biners, then you are carrying too many. If you are carrying more than twice as many pieces of protection as you have slings, then you are carrying too many.
I am not to sure what i shall think of that statement.
Part of me says that those are indeed wise words of a minimalist, but the other part screams "How the intercourse am i supposed to built a safe belay when i don not have anything left on my harness!"

In reply to:
If you run out of either runners or protection, then get creative or belay up your second. While simuling a ridgeline traverse, the second had all of the gear, so just draped the rope into a crack and jammed a rock on top to keep it from lifting out.
Problem is, the options for creativity depend on the rock type. I am mostly climbing limestone, and it seems like i constantly use slings, to sling chockstones in cracks, big flakes and horns or "hourglasses". On ridges even more so. Last year i did a long but fearly easy ridge, and at least 90% of the belays simply where a sling thrown over a feature of some sort.
This climb there where only 2, both of wich had to be improved with nuts and/or cams.

rgold wrote:
Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.
Yes, the belays are a "problem". Thats in fact the places where we used up most doubles, and no, rocks often where simply not an option, unfortunately.
But 6 pieces as standart? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.

the_climber wrote:
Heavy rack?! that's nothing.

Heavy is a full aid rack. What you described is a standard rack for many many locations and a light rack for others.
Yes, i know about aid racks, but as you say, it seems like my rack could actually be considered "light" by some peoples standards.

In reply to:
Look at it this way, if more "new wave" climbers tried to climb a classic route with what the FA's used they'd piss their pants...
Unless you are talking about "new wave aid", i fully agree with that!
When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that

But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 Unsure
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?
Damn, thats gnarly!


qwert


sbaclimber


Sep 19, 2011, 6:25 AM
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qwert wrote:
rgold wrote:
Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.
Yes, the belays are a "problem". Thats in fact the places where we used up most doubles, and no, rocks often where simply not an option, unfortunately.
But 6 pieces as standard? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.
Yes, 3 pieces per belay anchor is "standard".


colatownkid


Sep 19, 2011, 6:25 AM
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qwert wrote:
rgold wrote:
Moreover, on real trad routes without bolted stances, you are going to be using six pieces, more or less, on the belays at the top and bottom of each pitch, and I've found that having only single sizes leaves you short quite frequently.
Yes, the belays are a "problem". Thats in fact the places where we used up most doubles, and no, rocks often where simply not an option, unfortunately.
But 6 pieces as standart? that sounds like either overkill, or a route that only offers shitty protection opportunities.

If I can be so bold as to put words in rgold's mouth, I believe what he meant is that on a trad route without bolted belays, for any given pitch except the first, there will at some point be two belays established simultaneously, one at the top of the pitch and one at the bottom. Therefore, if you assume a 3-piece anchor for each belay, you need at least 6 total pieces just for the 2 belays.


Rudmin


Sep 19, 2011, 6:35 AM
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If you are on a ridge where you are slinging a lot of features, how about belaying off them as well? Use your rope to tie a ginormous eight on a bight and toss that over a solidly planted boulder. Cinch it tight and you've got a pretty truck gearless anchor. Or weave the rope around and tie a bowline on a bight and belay off of the tail loop.

If you don't have enough gear to make an anchor, consider finding a well-braced sitdown stance and counting that as one of your pieces. Belay off your harness with the other gear giving you a little bit of tension.


rsmillbern


Sep 19, 2011, 7:04 AM
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qwert wrote:
Unless you are talking about "new wave aid", i fully agree with that!
When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that

But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 Unsure
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?
Damn, thats gnarly!
qwert


If you took 5 mins off every pitch that would be nearly an hour. I know that when I climb with most people we could save 5 mins at each belay pretty easy, with the exception of 1 partner that never takes even 5 minutes to change belays. Add to this less time placing pro assuming the stories run-outs and I think one might be able to get time down...

Note: I am talking only from my experience as I, obviously don't know how you climb and change belays :-). For myself, I always carry too much gear and place all that I can ;-)


petsfed


Sep 19, 2011, 7:14 AM
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qwert wrote:
But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 Unsure
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?

That's just inexperience talking. As you learn the rock type, you'll be able to find placements and holds faster, and so will your partner. Also, better rope-management techniques help a lot. When I was climbing up in the Snowies (a nearby mountain cirque), we took 4 hours to climb a 300m route because we didn't know what we were getting into, carried too much, and didn't have our systems dialed. The next week, when I went up with a different partner, we climbed the same route in half the time, and it snowed on us.

Also, pay attention during the belay changeovers. If you need to restack the rope, if the second is taking longer than just long enough to catch their breath, you'll lose a lot more time than you think. Have the mentality of "the way off is up" and you'll move faster in everything you do. We used to say, about a pitch off the ground "lets get off this thing", and we didn't mean lets go down. That mentality is incredibly valuable.

I'd say that bringing the pin hammer was the most obvious symptom of what you did wrong: you expected that failure should be fairly consequence free. Get yourself well and truly committed and you'll move faster.


shockabuku


Sep 19, 2011, 8:10 AM
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petsfed wrote:
qwert wrote:
But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 Unsure
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?

Also, pay attention during the belay changeovers. If you need to restack the rope, if the second is taking longer than just long enough to catch their breath, you'll lose a lot more time than you think. Have the mentality of "the way off is up" and you'll move faster in everything you do. We used to say, about a pitch off the ground "lets get off this thing", and we didn't mean lets go down. That mentality is incredibly valuable.

One of my occasional partners taught me that nobody's hands should be idle at the belay. This is probably best accomplished with some prior coordination between the partners about who is doing what.


chadnsc


Sep 19, 2011, 8:24 AM
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qwert wrote:
::snip::

How the fuck do you climb with all that shit?

::snip::

If my large out of shape ass can lead 9's and 10's on trad with big rack a rock star like you should be able to as well. Tongue

You're just weak. Wink


darkgift06


Sep 19, 2011, 9:48 AM
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I agree, I'm also large & out of shape & can still lead 9's & 10's with all that crap. a good idea is to have the 2nd carry the pack, & clip your water to your harness. Also look up at the pitch & read the topo & see if you really need to carry that #4 & 3 with you on that pitch, maybe you could get the 2nd to bring it up until you get to a pitch where you need it.


tolman_paul


Sep 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
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That really doesn't sound like that heavy of a rack.

The real question is, which pieces of gear did you find superfulous? If you used everything on the rack, then it wasn't too heavy of a rack.


chadnsc


Sep 19, 2011, 2:19 PM
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darkgift06 wrote:
I agree, I'm also large & out of shape & can still lead 9's & 10's with all that crap. a good idea is to have the 2nd carry the pack, & clip your water to your harness. Also look up at the pitch & read the topo & see if you really need to carry that #4 & 3 with you on that pitch, maybe you could get the 2nd to bring it up until you get to a pitch where you need it.

Wait, you're large and outa shape, and your name is Chad!?!?

Brother?


ladyscarlett


Sep 25, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Heh, I don't know about all the big hardmen around here, but YES...how DO people lug all that gear around?!?

The few routes I've done, I've lugged it with a lot of sweat and panting, and not a little wheezing. Having the gear on my harness makes climbing and scrambling easier (I suspect due to weight distribution and girly hips). I am learning the flexibility of gear sling.

I'm a fairly big girl (and beginning leader) and my general multi-pitch (beginner) routes put the rack at about 25% of my weight exclusive of personal stuff (water, layers, food, inebriating liquids). I'm not sure if this 'normal' or correct, but it's reality. I suspect that's what rack weight is about...reality. I'm learning the ways of lightening up, and it's helpful, but noticing it's a very circumstance specific art. "It depends".

With a heavy rack, my climbing itself becomes much more body involved. I use my butt, hips, shoulders, elbows, and the rest of my body A LOT. Much more than following or climbs where I'm rack-less.

I view rack weight like my muffin top. I can slim it down, but the reality is that it'll always be more than I really want to carry in weight.

How do I climb with all the heavy crap? Long, slow, and sweaty...

Many people call that fun. I can't seem to stop...and hopefully one day I'll do it fast, long, strong, with only the lightest sheen of sweat!

Good luck and hope you share some secrets as you discover them!

2p, cheers

LS


dagibbs


Sep 29, 2011, 12:12 PM
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Yup!

And, when you take of the rack to do a nice bit of top-rope or sport, you feel so LIGHT and FREE.

Though, half the time I climb top-rope and sport with more junk hanging off my harness than I will actually need. It's just there, and it's still lighter than my rack (which I carry shoulder-sling style), so I barely notice it. When I do, I just label it "training weight". ;)


blueeyedclimber


Sep 30, 2011, 7:52 AM
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rsmillbern wrote:
qwert wrote:
Unless you are talking about "new wave aid", i fully agree with that!
When we where at the hut, we talked a bit with some hikers. Turns out they where also climbers, so they asked about the route, how long it is, and how it is protected and so on. After we told them 11 pitches, and that we expected to find about 4 pitons of around 90 years of age they gave the same look of incomprehension you normally get from tourists atop crags when they fail to understand how, and more important why someone would do that

But those oldschool dudes where crazy! The old guidbook said that whole route should take 2.25 hours. The new one said 3-5 hours. We took about 4 Unsure
And it even didnt feel that slow! With some better organization we could have easily shaved 15 to 30 mins of, but 1.75 hours faster?
Damn, thats gnarly!
qwert


If you took 5 mins off every pitch that would be nearly an hour. I know that when I climb with most people we could save 5 mins at each belay pretty easy, with the exception of 1 partner that never takes even 5 minutes to change belays. Add to this less time placing pro assuming the stories run-outs and I think one might be able to get time down...

Note: I am talking only from my experience as I, obviously don't know how you climb and change belays :-). For myself, I always carry too much gear and place all that I can ;-)

Don't forget to leave time for smooching. Smile

Although, I climb mainly with my wife, so YMMV Wink

Josh


damienclimber


Oct 6, 2011, 4:25 PM
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qwert wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
Maybe the OP bit off more than they could chew.
Nah, worked like a charm!
Took the wrong descent, but still got back to the hut early, cleaned it, did the 2000+m descent in about 2 hours (fucking bloody blisters!) and where cruising along at 200kph on the Autobahn when the thunderstorm rolled in.

But the question remains:
-how the fuck do those people climb that seem to be routinely taking doubles or triples of everything with them
-how do i get the rack as light as possible, given that i do not place a lot of pro at 5.8 and below anyways

qwert


You forgot your Llama !


caughtinside


Oct 6, 2011, 5:29 PM
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Sounds like a pretty standardish rack to me. Of course, if all you have been doing is sport climbing it's going to feel heavy.

For long routes with a long approach, I like to have packs on both climbers to distribute the non-climbing gear like water and hiking shoes. If it's a harder route this might not be ideal.

Quickest way to lighten the rack is to make sure you're on all lightweight wiregate biners. Second is to leave the bigger pieces behind if possible. Easy route? More stoppers.

Use this one as a learning experience, see what you didn't need and cut it out.


boadman


Oct 12, 2011, 1:23 PM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Jeez, sounds like a full-on seige rack!
I couldn´t take that much gear as I haven´t got that much, I´d use 11/2 sets of nuts, 3 or 4 cams, 2 x 60cm and 2 x 120cm slings, 8 draws and 2 screwgates (and the usual nut key, cord, water etc).
Pegs and hammer, haven´t carried them since about 1977.

On the other hand maybe you´re weak! Normally along with the above I´d be carrying a drill, 4 batteries, 30 bolts, hammer, spanner etc. About 12 kg extra and that´s the light and fast setup!

Jim
You are a brit in germany, so you are not really the person i am trying to get answers from.
Pegs and hammer - the rock is a really slick Gneiss with lots of lichen, so pitons would have been the only option in case of a surprise rain.
And bolts? Well, that mountain is probably one of the few spots in the whole alps where you dont find a single bolt, and its supposed to stay that way!

qwert

The real answer is that you're weak, and a sissy.

My standard alpine rack is 1 set of nuts, 10 trad draws, .75-3 bd c4, and maybe a couple of lockers.


cuchulainn1856


Mar 31, 2013, 12:13 PM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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I'd say probably just grow some balls, shut up and train harder.


justroberto


Mar 31, 2013, 4:40 PM
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Re: [cuchulainn1856] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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cuchulainn1856 wrote:
I'd say probably just grow some balls, shut up and train harder.

Finally! We've all been waiting a year and a half for someone to say that.


healyje


Mar 31, 2013, 5:59 PM
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Re: [qwert] How the fuck do you manage to climb with all that heavy crap!? [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
And a bitch to manage on the harness!

For that sort of situation I use one of these:



http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...wall_gear_sling.html

Holds a 1-liter bladder, a snack bar or two and keys no problem.


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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