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guangzhou


Oct 5, 2011, 8:37 PM
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CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."


traddad


Oct 5, 2011, 8:44 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Like Goldman Sachs?

"If you're rich it's not your fault you're a member of the lucky sperm club."

Remember: It's only class warfare if the shots come from below.


(This post was edited by traddad on Oct 5, 2011, 8:47 PM)


guangzhou


Oct 5, 2011, 10:06 PM
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traddad wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Like Goldman Sachs?

"If you're rich it's not your fault you're a member of the lucky sperm club."

Remember: It's only class warfare if the shots come from below.

While some people are born in wealth, many start at the bottom of the economic scale and work their way up it. Also, being born rich doesn't mean you stay rich.

In this case, people are blaming banks, big business, and government for having no money, but they need to look at how they lived their life even when the economy was strong. Instead of living within their means, they used credit they couldn't repay, houses that were to big, and saved no money. Now, they're complaining saying banks made it to easy for me to use credit and barrow money.

We make choices, we have have to live with the outcome. What do I know, I was against the bailout when the government did it. I did invest in many of the companies that were getting bailout money because I figure my investment would make some returns fairly quickly, and they did.

Now we have some 40 year old guys complaining that even his College degree in Woman's Studies, which he probably took to pick up girls in collge, he can't get a job.


veganclimber


Oct 6, 2011, 5:49 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
In this case, people are blaming banks, big business, and government for having no money,

Why do you think fucked up the economy in the first place?

In reply to:
but they need to look at how they lived their life even when the economy was strong. Instead of living within their means, they used credit they couldn't repay, houses that were to big, and saved no money. Now, they're complaining saying banks made it to easy for me to use credit and barrow money.

Clearly, that's what they were all doing. I'm sure none of them had jobs and lived responsibly before the economy went to hell.

In reply to:
We make choices, we have have to live with the outcome.

We also have to live with the results of the choices that other people make. Most of the people that are suffering because of the economy are not the ones that caused the problem in the first place. The ones that screwed everything up are all doing fine right now.

In reply to:
What do I know, I was against the bailout when the government did it. I did invest in many of the companies that were getting bailout money because I figure my investment would make some returns fairly quickly, and they did.

Good for you. I have no idea what this has to do with anything though.

In reply to:
Now we have some 40 year old guys complaining that even his College degree in Woman's Studies, which he probably took to pick up girls in collge, he can't get a job.

Why shouldn't he be able to find a job somewhere?


lena_chita
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Oct 6, 2011, 7:04 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

I don't have facts to back it up, but *I* happen to believe that whenever someone says (the bolded part), they are usually wrong. Tongue


traddad


Oct 6, 2011, 8:22 AM
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Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 6, 2011, 9:26 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

I don't have facts to back it up, but *I* happen to believe that whenever someone says (the bolded part), they are usually wrong. Tongue


Re: the bold font...

Facts, smacts... Look at how many people believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and/or there is no such thing as evolution.



"Those that have convictions that are not arrived at by reason can not be unconvinced by reason ."
~Unknown

Or, cannot even be unconvinced by facts for that matter.


'Tis par for most Teapublicans.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 6, 2011, 9:27 AM)


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 9:41 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Typical Republican, stupid opinion based on zero facts, and thinks he alone is responsible for his success.

Mythology of 'The American Dream'.

The fact is that of the modern economies, America is near the bottom of the list when it comes to upward social mobility. The idea that one can get ahead if they work hard is less reality in American than it is in other countries, because our government, aligned with big money, has implemented policies that are stacked against workers keeping the fruits off their labor, and our education system is stacked against the lower and middle classes.

In America, what you are born into plays a greater role in where you will end up. The American Dream is dead.

****Edited to add link to the facts that back up my statements.


http://www.oecd.org/...ecd/2/7/45002641.pdf


(This post was edited by hugepedro on Oct 6, 2011, 9:42 AM)


wjca


Oct 6, 2011, 11:30 AM
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traddad wrote:
Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Are you saying that, regardless of the type of education one chooses to obtain, everyone should be paid the same for the different jobs that those educations would entail people to perform? If so, then that's just dumb.


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Another thoughtÖ.

I am all for individual responsibility. It is a great personal ethos, and I live by it myself.

The problem with how Republicans regard individual responsibility though, is that they want to substitute it for actually addressing systemic weaknesses in our society and our economy.

The irony isÖ.

That the well-off donít need our systemic problems to be fixed in order to succeed, nor does their own individual responsibility have as much bearing on where their station in life will end up as does their birth into money.

Whereas the poor, no matter how much individual responsibility they exercise, are not likely to succeed and achieve the American Dream if we donít correct the systemic problems in our society and economy.

So this attitude, of applying what is an individual ethos to what are systemic problems, actually prevents our country from advancing and being more economically vibrant and competitive in the global economy. People like Cain, and other Republicans, should be excoriated for such anti-American positions every time they say things like this that prevent our country from being more competitive.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 6, 2011, 12:54 PM
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To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 6, 2011, 1:01 PM)


traddad


Oct 6, 2011, 5:09 PM
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wjca wrote:
traddad wrote:
Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Are you saying that, regardless of the type of education one chooses to obtain, everyone should be paid the same for the different jobs that those educations would entail people to perform? If so, then that's just dumb.
What ever makes you think that? I mean really, nothing there could be construed to mean that...unless the reader had the political intellect of Sarah Palin. I just want people paid in line with the effort and skill that the endeavor requires. The money that many CEOs are getting paid is completely out of proportion to the value they bring. Especially when compared to their European counterparts.


guangzhou


Oct 6, 2011, 9:35 PM
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Plain and simple, even the poor can succeed and grow financially in America. I know this from personal experience.

My Mother migrated from with no English and three children to the U.S. Washing Dishes and renting out a single room in a three bedroom apartment, she work for a fast food taco restaurant. As she learned more English, she decided to help the restaurant with book keeping and then worked weekend in a department store. (All minimum wage jobs while the three of us went to school) To make end meet, my sister and I packed boxes for a clothing store, we we the only whites, everyone once was Mexican labor. )

As my mother English grew and my time grew too, we worked our way up various jobs to higher and higher pay. My mother eventually became a bank teller, attended courses in accounting that the bank provided to the staff for free after hours, she still worked weekend in a department store, I packed boxes and made pizzas.

I remember a neighbor recommending we apply for food stamps and financial assistance from the government, but my mother refused because she believed it was a system that trapped you once you started. She felt it made people lazy and dependent on handouts. Instead, she took another job serving tables three nights a week.

With an accounting degree she eventually became an accountant for various companies, always moving up in pay. Eventually she stated her own company in the credit card processing world and made great money. My sister also became an accountant in various forms of Art Companies, my brother started his own company in financial services, and I created my first business before I graduated high school, sold it to four Mexicans the day I graduated and moved to Yosemite to clean rooms for a living.

From there, started all over again and moved up the economic scales again. Am I rich, hardly, but I live a comfortable life, I do have to work to maintain it, but that's part of what I believe in.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices

Don't wait for people to offer you something. Find what needs to be done and jump it. Get it done.

Success comes to those who run after it, not those who wait for it to be delivered.

If you do something, from a job to getting an education, make sure it's time well spent. Getting a degree in a fluff field will do you no good when the economy is bad.

Sometimes we have to do jobs we don't like, evening America they are job, it's just some people have to much ego to accept them or refuse to accept them because it's not their field.

Businesses should be started to earn money for those who own them and those who help them grow. Wall Street, Banks, and ordinary consumer are all to blame for bad economy.

The world is full of opportunities for those willing to work, improve, and develop the skills needed to grow in those areas.

Another words, stop blaming other people when you are not successful.


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 10:58 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Plain and simple, even the poor can succeed and grow financially in America. I know this from personal experience.

My Mother migrated from with no English and three children to the U.S. Washing Dishes and renting out a single room in a three bedroom apartment, she work for a fast food taco restaurant. As she learned more English, she decided to help the restaurant with book keeping and then worked weekend in a department store. (All minimum wage jobs while the three of us went to school) To make end meet, my sister and I packed boxes for a clothing store, we we the only whites, everyone once was Mexican labor. )

As my mother English grew and my time grew too, we worked our way up various jobs to higher and higher pay. My mother eventually became a bank teller, attended courses in accounting that the bank provided to the staff for free after hours, she still worked weekend in a department store, I packed boxes and made pizzas.

I remember a neighbor recommending we apply for food stamps and financial assistance from the government, but my mother refused because she believed it was a system that trapped you once you started. She felt it made people lazy and dependent on handouts. Instead, she took another job serving tables three nights a week.

With an accounting degree she eventually became an accountant for various companies, always moving up in pay. Eventually she stated her own company in the credit card processing world and made great money. My sister also became an accountant in various forms of Art Companies, my brother started his own company in financial services, and I created my first business before I graduated high school, sold it to four Mexicans the day I graduated and moved to Yosemite to clean rooms for a living.

From there, started all over again and moved up the economic scales again. Am I rich, hardly, but I live a comfortable life, I do have to work to maintain it, but that's part of what I believe in.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices

Don't wait for people to offer you something. Find what needs to be done and jump it. Get it done.

Success comes to those who run after it, not those who wait for it to be delivered.

If you do something, from a job to getting an education, make sure it's time well spent. Getting a degree in a fluff field will do you no good when the economy is bad.

Sometimes we have to do jobs we don't like, evening America they are job, it's just some people have to much ego to accept them or refuse to accept them because it's not their field.

Businesses should be started to earn money for those who own them and those who help them grow. Wall Street, Banks, and ordinary consumer are all to blame for bad economy.

The world is full of opportunities for those willing to work, improve, and develop the skills needed to grow in those areas.

Another words, stop blaming other people when you are not successful.

What a spectacular combination of arrogance and ignorance.

I came from worse poverty and disadvantage than you. There were many times we only ate if we could kill it or catch it. And where I lived, during long winters there was very little to kill or catch. There were days in a row that we didnít eat. My Mom could make a bag of rice last a week for a family of 5. Your Mom had a job, and made great money? You were rich, compared to us. It was all my Mom could do just to keep her kids alive and in clothes that you couldnít see right through the threads.

And in spite of the fact that I am very successful today, came from nothing to something, top of my field, in fact, I am not so arrogant to think that conditions are similar today to achieve what I have, or that I earned every bit of my station that I now enjoy in life, that I donít owe a huge debt to my country and society. And no, thatís not a debt because I ever took a hand out, itís because I know that the socio-economic conditions that allowed me to do business and succeed were created by, oh my goodness, government! Meaning, the contributions of my fellow citizens. And I also know that the conditions that existed 20 years ago that allowed me to get ahead, and probably you too, do not exist today.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices? Don't wait for people to offer you something?

You assume this is what people who are struggling and losing ground are doing?

I know quite a few people, who have good degrees, who are very smart, and who work their asses off, who have been financially destroyed through no fault of their own and through no bad decisions theyíve made.

One friend finished her Masters, to find no jobs, not even entry level. Worked 2 menial jobs, delivering pizzas at night, waiting tables during the day. Could only barely pay the bills, not save anything. Then she had a medical problem. No insurance. Couldnít afford to buy it herself, and those jobs didnít provide it, of course. She doesnít have rich parents that can bail her out. Sheís on her own. Sheís wiped out now. Done. Taken out of the economy. Medical bills she will never be able to pay off. Has to depend on the good graces of friends to have a roof over her head, not because sheís not still working hard to earn money for a place of her own, but with credit ruined she canít even get a lease on a rental.

Thatís the problem with self-righteous people like you. You see a situation like that and you think, ďtough shit for her, but so what, Iíve got mine.Ē I see a situation like that and I think, ďthatís awful for her, but thatís also awful for my country and for meĒ. Because every person that is taken out of the economy like that makes my country less competitive and takes one more consumer out of the economy that I make my living in.

You think that just because your mom worked her ass off to give you a good start in life, everyone else has the same opportunity as you. Youíre wrong. Especially these days.


guangzhou


Oct 6, 2011, 11:34 PM
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Maybe you should reread what I wrote more closely.

Second, I feel bad for your friend, but I bet if I asked her face to face, she isn't blaming the banks and the market.

As you reaching the top of your field, guess that means you are living proof that the system works for those ambitious enough to work at it all the time. In your own words, you came from the biggest disadvantages and became the top of your field in fact. (Who arrogant?)

Regardless, I am a firm believer that the system in America is much better than the system in other country for allowing people to get out of the bottom and work their way up.

A poor American has more opportunities to become educated and employed than a poor rice farmer in China or Indonesia and they are more efforts in America to open doors for those poor living in the worse conditions. Try attending college while being at the bottom of the economic scale in developing countries around the world.

As for you or me having it worse, I can't say one way or another. Poor is a state of mind, having no money is a state of income and economics. I also don't believe we can ever wipe out poverty, some countries will always be better off than others, this means some country will always be in one form of poverty compared to another. I remember when China was at the bottom of the economic ladder, it cracked the doors on Capitalism and look where it is economically speaking. Communism is still alive and strong there.

As for society helping, I have nothing against society helping, I have something against the people who believe society is required to help them. Every economic recession and depression has made America stronger afterward.

Of course, maybe I'm arrogant and ignorant.


I_do


Oct 7, 2011, 12:25 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Maybe you should reread what I wrote more closely.

Second, I feel bad for your friend, but I bet if I asked her face to face, she isn't blaming the banks and the market.

As you reaching the top of your field, guess that means you are living proof that the system works for those ambitious enough to work at it all the time. In your own words, you came from the biggest disadvantages and became the top of your field in fact. (Who arrogant?)

Regardless, I am a firm believer that the system in America is much better than the system in other country for allowing people to get out of the bottom and work their way up.

A poor American has more opportunities to become educated and employed than a poor rice farmer in China or Indonesia and they are more efforts in America to open doors for those poor living in the worse conditions. Try attending college while being at the bottom of the economic scale in developing countries around the world.

As for you or me having it worse, I can't say one way or another. Poor is a state of mind, having no money is a state of income and economics. I also don't believe we can ever wipe out poverty, some countries will always be better off than others, this means some country will always be in one form of poverty compared to another. I remember when China was at the bottom of the economic ladder, it cracked the doors on Capitalism and look where it is economically speaking. Communism is still alive and strong there.

As for society helping, I have nothing against society helping, I have something against the people who believe society is required to help them. Every economic recession and depression has made America stronger afterward.

Of course, maybe I'm arrogant and ignorant.


Hugepedro wrote
Typical Republican, stupid opinion based on zero facts, and thinks he alone is responsible for his success.

Mythology of 'The American Dream'.

The fact is that of the modern economies, America is near the bottom of the list when it comes to upward social mobility. The idea that one can get ahead if they work hard is less reality in American than it is in other countries, because our government, aligned with big money, has implemented policies that are stacked against workers keeping the fruits off their labor, and our education system is stacked against the lower and middle classes.

In America, what you are born into plays a greater role in where you will end up. The American Dream is dead.

****Edited to add link to the facts that back up my statements.


http://www.oecd.org/...ecd/2/7/45002641.pdf


guangzhou


Oct 7, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.


yanqui


Oct 7, 2011, 9:53 AM
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Accept responsibility .... hmmm ... lets see how that goes:

For years AIG made a killing radically overvaluing its subprime mortgaged backed securities. When investors found out these values were about double the values used by the bankrupt Lehman Brothers, the company immediately began to collapse. Because such a collapse would cause a complete financial meltdown, more than 100 billion government dollars got pumped into the company. Most of this money, in turn, got payed out to banks that also had to be bailed out by the government because they too had made a killing on bad investments based on inflated subprime mortgages and were too big to fail.

What did AIG officials do to accept responsibility? After the first installment of government money they went on a retreat to California, including spa, golf and banquets, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. What next? AIG executives went on a lavish English hunting trip. Then what? AIG reported the largest corporate loss in history and the executives decided to pay themselves hundreds of millions of dollars of bonuses. Now that's responsibility.

Meanwhile, what happened to the little guy who was hit hard by the economic crisis and maybe stretched it a bit too far by buying an overvalued 300,000 dollar home in an inflated real estate market? The banks foreclosed.

Anyone who can't see the outrage in that situation is one callous cad.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Oct 7, 2011, 10:25 AM)


styndall


Oct 7, 2011, 10:20 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.

It's like you've built up some stereotype of the average American (they're lazy slobs, not like you!), and you're not letting reality inform it at all.

What happens when a massive economic bubble largely driven by fancy Wall Street maneuvers collapses, shrinking the money supply and cutting demand? Businesses cut back, lots of people lose their jobs. No job, and suddenly that house payment gets really tough.

Or perhaps someone has gotten sick, and insurance either isn't there or doesn't cover enough. A massive number of bankruptcies begin with medical emergencies.

You've worked hard, and you've also gotten lucky - good family connections, lots of emphasis on education, etc. etc., but that's no justification for casting aspersions on people who aren't so fortunate.

Also, your government spending opinions are just stupid. All this infrastructure that permits America to be the business powerhouse that it is was built with government spending. In fact, the biggest periods of growth in the US occur during periods of higher taxes and higher government spending.

Seriously, if you'd let reality inform your opinions, you'd get to be right a lot more often.


hugepedro


Oct 7, 2011, 2:57 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.

There is no shortage of people too dumb to know what's good for them.


hugepedro


Oct 7, 2011, 3:03 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

Perhaps I'm the ignorant one then. I had no idea this study was flawed. Please point me to the problems in their method or data so that I know not to use this flawed report again.


guangzhou


Oct 7, 2011, 5:41 PM
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styndall wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.

It's like you've built up some stereotype of the average American (they're lazy slobs, not like you!), and you're not letting reality inform it at all.

Not a stereotype, they are plenty of very hard working American, that is why I decided to become American myself. They are also plenty of lazy one waiting for someone else to do things for them and blaming other for where they are in life instead of working at finding a way out.
Americans, not the American government, have created the greatest innovations in the last 200 year fairly consistently. Mostly because America is a place that allows things to happen.

In reply to:
What happens when a massive economic bubble largely driven by fancy Wall Street maneuvers collapses, shrinking the money supply and cutting demand? Businesses cut back, lots of people lose their jobs. No job, and suddenly that house payment gets really tough.

If the government has it's way, they create loads of programs that take years to get started, pump money into businesses that don't deserve the funding. This teaches businesses it's ok to keep doing what you're doing, because when you mess up, we'll come clean up behind you and give you money to fix what you broke. Giving money to big business that is known to have done the list of things this companies did was horrible idea. Those businesses and the decisions makers behind them were not held accountable for what they did, so they will never accept responsibility for their actions.

The government could of spent less given the employees the same salary they were for 18 moths to 24 years while those employees repositioned themselves. While I prefer big business to Big Government, nowhere in my post did I say big business rules. I still think individuals and small businesses do more for America than anyone. The government doesnít earn itís revenue, it just collect taxes.

In reply to:
Or perhaps someone has gotten sick, and insurance either isn't there or doesn't cover enough. A massive number of bankruptcies begin with medical emergencies.

Here I agree, they are always circumstances that will create these problems. What I don't believe is that the unemployment number is all about those circumstances.

Medical, I have suggestion, create a program where doctor who just finished medical school go in work in government hospitals for roughly the same salary they would make if they joined the Military, including housing, in exchange for them working in these state hospitals for set number of years, the federal government pays back the medical school and college loans. (Like the military does with doctors now.) Similar programs can be instituted with other medical professions.

This allows doctor to work, earn experience, and work for lower salaries because they have college loan looming overhead. The doctor gives time; the government gives it's taxed earned money. We get more doctors in public hospitals; some will move on, other will stay at lower salaries and housing allowance because they can afford to work and are making a difference.

In reply to:
You've worked hard, and you've also gotten lucky - good family connections, lots of emphasis on education, etc. etc., but that's no justification for casting aspersions on people who aren't so fortunate.

Not sure if I've worked hard or not, I've looked for ways to do what I want in move forward. I've actually avoided working to hard most of my life; I instead choose to follow the path of least resistance to achieve my goals and so I can go climbing more. I've always minimalized my possessions and lived frugally. In many cases, people around me told me I was wrong for doing things the way I did, that I would regret this or that. I rarely do things just because thatís what society wants me to do or that the usual way of doing things.

Education, I have a bachelors degree, not much, only decided to go to college so I could become a teacher, something I did for ten years then moved on. I decided to attend college ten years after graduating highs chool and a few years after the military.
Teaching is hard work, but Iloved it, and the schedule was nice compromise time wise for teaching. I learned a lot about people and kids, enough to decide that I was not meant to be teacher because my views donít conform to the mass public. My views I based on what I read, see, and experience firsthand.

How did I pay for college, simple, the GI Bill. A government program that trades time served for a financial reward. Not a government handout. I have nothing against the government helping, I just have something against people who want the government to help with nothing in return.

In reply to:
Also, your government spending opinions are just stupid. All this infrastructure that permits America to be the business powerhouse that it is was built with government spending. In fact, the biggest periods of growth in the US occur during periods of higher taxes and higher government spending.

Not sure where I ever mentioned infrastructure spending. A country's infrastructure is definitely the government's responsibility. For a good infrastructure, I am willing to pay taxes. Looking at America's infrastructure; that is a good place to start recreating jobs with government money. I also know I am not the only who believes this.

As for period of growth based in government spending, the spending was all based in improving the countries infrastructures and hired people to build roads, sewers, parks and other systems needed for the good of society.

The program didn't give money because people were complaining about not having a job, they were paying people to do jobs that needed do that no-one was willing to do before. The programs provided housing and low wages. People wanted to work, needed a roof over their heads, and were hungry.

Of course, the lack of maintenance in our current infrastructure is a good example of why I think the government isn't efficient. The government doesnít maintain what it has until itís so far gone that itís cheaper to rebuilt versus maintaining.

In reply to:
Seriously, if you'd let reality inform your opinions, you'd get to be right a lot more often.

Reality is that no one sees the whole picture. Every example you mentioned above was not mentioned by me, but you attacked what you perceived my views were about those subject, when in reality you have no ideas what they are.

You think I am against government spending, when in reality I am against welfare, food stamp, and other programs that gives something for nothing.

A few of you have hinted at me being a republican, well I am not. Actually, I am not sure which is worse, a Republican or a Democrat. Both have ideas I agree with, both have ideas I disagree with. I am happy to say I am neither and that no political party shares all of my views, so I donít align myself with any one party. Actually, I think all the parties have something worth saying, and all have things I completely disagree with. I guess thatís why they say in a Democracy, more than half the people are unhappy at all time.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 7, 2011, 6:03 PM)


ubu


Oct 7, 2011, 7:53 PM
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hugepedro wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

Perhaps I'm the ignorant one then. I had no idea this study was flawed. Please point me to the problems in their method or data so that I know not to use this flawed report again.

There, I highlighted the problem for you. Grumble grumble freedom fries something something....


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 8, 2011, 5:36 AM
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hugepedro wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.

There is no shortage of people too dumb to know what's good for them.

And people to exploit their stupidity.

I think Andy said it well, many years ago:
"...a large portion of voters are kneejerking simpletons easily distracted by shiny things and yelling..."
~Andy Gram (atg200)


atg200


Oct 8, 2011, 8:29 AM
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guangzhou


Oct 8, 2011, 7:08 PM
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atg200 wrote:
[quote=guangzhou]Americans, not the American government, have created the greatest innovations in the last 200 year fairly consistently. Mostly because America is a place that allows things to happen.

This fallacy gets trotted out so often with no real basis in fact. This was sort of true from 200 years to around 100 years ago. Since then, most real innovations have come out of government programs that the private sector has subsequently run with(and profited enormously from). We've gotten advanced enough that real innovation takes enormous investment and risk taking that the private sector will not do until its proven.
In reply to:
Examples:

WW1 and WW2 industrial production
National security, definitely government spending, but all material was supplied by private businesses when it came to production.

In reply to:
Manhattan Project
Created as a national security imitative for weapon, again, I agree with government spending for National Security.

In reply to:
Space program
I think the government locking private business out of the space race has done more to slow the process down than to help it along.

In reply to:
Large scale dam engineering(private bullshit dams like Johnstown fail and kill spectacular numbers of people. Hoover Dam works pretty well).
National Power Grid, definitely should be government.

In reply to:
Interstate highway system(thank god private industry didn't do this or we would have thousands of toll roads that didn't connect to each other well or follow the same building/signage standards).

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.
In reply to:
Computer development - there is no way Apple could have started without massive government investment in ENIAC and other early computers.
Apple recieve research money, fine, I see no issues with research money being given to help start up companies that will develop something new. I see a problem with government giving money to businesses that are decades old and failing because they refused to adapt to changes in the market.

In reply to:
The Internet - if this had been done privately there would have been hundreds of separate for pay networks like the cell phone companies.

The internet was around long before the common citizen heard of it. Within the military compound, the technology was being used to send messages before American's heard of email.

The internet the way it is today was built on the back of the initial government project, fine, but private businesses made the internet what it is today. Easy to navigate, usable to do business, and growing.

As for your comparison to cellphone, yes they are 100s of companies, but that is what makes the market competitive and innovative. Without competition, I ask you how many dead-space areas we wold have when it comes to signal compared to today. Companies keep putting up towers to get new subscribers, the companies who own those tower rent them to other companies to increase revenue. I see nothing wrong with that.


In reply to:
Human genome project.
Not much I can say here, don't have any opinion of much knowledge on this.

In reply to:
Private Americans are good at exploiting those types of programs to improve and profit from them, which is great. This is why it makes me sick to see all of these ass clown right wingers screaming about the Solyndra loan failure. That is exactly the sort of thing government should be doing. Even if 1000 programs like that fail, every one success that creates a game changer like the internet does more to build the economy than millions of little cottage industry types like you do.

Again, I have nothing against the government investing in companies that are researching new technologies. If I could push a buttom, I would approve the another Solyndra loan today. To me, the ruckuss about the loans is more about Political power struggles between both parties.

I bet that if the Republican party takes office and the project come to fruition under their watch, they would be quick to say how great it is that the Republican Federal Government was able to create so many new jobs in this 'new field" and would never even mention the whole project was started by the other side.

The truth of the matter is that many government programs and changes don't ripen until the person who started them is gone.


petsfed


Oct 9, 2011, 9:39 AM
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The problem with NASA is that it should exist mostly as a fund distribution body and information clearinghouse. It is the insistence that it do something practical that has led it into conflict with the private sector and given the impression that its wasting money. I'm not saying that we just hand them money and walk away, I'm saying that as long as the public, or worse still the congress critters, say "what's in it for me?" or "we need to do this cheaper!", the good research gets hobbled. On average, NASA aeronautics research takes between 20 and 40 years to ever appear in even military applications, let alone consumer grade tech. Boeing, Lockheed, Ball, their research and development is mostly a refinement of NASA research into something practical, and since the foundation work is already done, they do it at a fraction of the cost.

The other major thing that NASA does is to provide high quality instruments to explore the universe. There is no private granting body, in existence, that would pay for a James Webb Space Telescope. Period. Just from the deep-space angle, we have the (soon to be retired) Hubble visible, near IR, and UV space telescope, the Spitzer IR space telescope, the Astro-E2 X-Ray space telescope, the Chandra X-Ray space telescope, the CHIPS UV space telescope, the GLAST gamma-ray space telescope, the GALEX all-sky galaxy survey telescope, the Herschel far-IR space telescope, and on and on and on. These are all providing valuable data for understanding the universe at large, maybe pointing towards new physical phenomena that will affect our day to day life, but mostly not. And since the foundation work hasn't been done to show how it might come in handy in a make-my-dividends-increase sort of way, your average response when you pitch it to a company that could afford to pay for it themselves is "Fuck you, and the coffee isn't free."

They also pay for the climate study satellites, a LOT of big picture physics research (they launched Gravity Probe B, which is meant to test the relativistic claim that gravity waves exist), and a variety of other research.

I haven't even mentioned the planetary astronomy they do, the probes they've launched, the missions they've operated.

The only part that the private sector would take over for themselves is the aeronautics R&D, but they won't because if NASA's doing it, they don't have to pay for it themselves. The manned space program is the most expensive single part of NASA's mission, but also the most visible. The manned space program basically exists to justify NASA's science budget to people who think that all the science we need is written out in Genesis. And whenever small-government types go after NASA they say "we're spending billions spending robots to asteroids, or building orbiting telescopes (at this point, they may say with a sneer, that just seems like a needless frivolity since we've got thousands of telescopes on earth that work just fine) but we haven't been to the moon since 1972. Why are we wasting all of this money?"

In the private sector, physics research is all about improving existing devices. I've not heard a single word about private sector research into spintronics, although (provided it works) it will likely supplant all of electronics. Why? Because the major boons from that approach are still entirely theoretical. Nobody will spend money on it until they know that the complications are practical, not theoretical.


petsfed


Oct 9, 2011, 3:23 PM
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To the OP, if a person manages to dig themselves out of poverty without simply praying that things went right for a few months in a row, then they were never really in poverty to begin with.

When you pray that your kids don't get sick so you don't have to miss work toi take care of them. When you pray the bus isn't late so you don't get fired. When you pray that your landlord doesn't cash your rent check until after Tuesday, because the rent comes due the same day your pay check gets mailed. When you pray you don't get mugged walking home from work, since the $30 in your pocket is 3 months savings towards the books you'll need to buy to attend community college to try to improve your station.

Guangzhou, I'm sure you're proud of your mother for doing so much while starting with so little. I would be too. But what you failed to see was how lucky she was that that book-keeping position opened up. That she didn't get hit by an uninsured driver. That the bank offered *free* accounting lessons to their tellers. That at no point her manager elected to be sexist, racist, or fire her for any thing that her work ethic couldn't mitigate. That the economy didn't collapse in such a way that department stores, taco bells, and banks could no longer afford to take on additional workers.

Sure, its frustrating to hear about welfare princesses who are happy to collect their check but not actually work, but that isn't the story behind class warfare as its been dubbed.

The banks and the markets are just one part of a much deeper problem, they are its most visible agents. But the problem stems from the gimme-gimme approach to money making, the idea that winning at life means spitting on the people who make less than you. We idolize the rich, when really we should only idolize their account balances, not the conduct that led to it.


guangzhou


Oct 9, 2011, 6:10 PM
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petsfed wrote:
To the OP, if a person manages to dig themselves out of poverty without simply praying that things went right for a few months in a row, then they were never really in poverty to begin with.

When you pray that your kids don't get sick so you don't have to miss work toi take care of them. When you pray the bus isn't late so you don't get fired. When you pray that your landlord doesn't cash your rent check until after Tuesday, because the rent comes due the same day your pay check gets mailed. When you pray you don't get mugged walking home from work, since the $30 in your pocket is 3 months savings towards the books you'll need to buy to attend community college to try to improve your station.

Guangzhou, I'm sure you're proud of your mother for doing so much while starting with so little. I would be too. But what you failed to see was how lucky she was that that book-keeping position opened up. That she didn't get hit by an uninsured driver. That the bank offered *free* accounting lessons to their tellers. That at no point her manager elected to be sexist, racist, or fire her for any thing that her work ethic couldn't mitigate. That the economy didn't collapse in such a way that department stores, taco bells, and banks could no longer afford to take on additional workers.

Sure, its frustrating to hear about welfare princesses who are happy to collect their check but not actually work, but that isn't the story behind class warfare as its been dubbed.

The banks and the markets are just one part of a much deeper problem, they are its most visible agents. But the problem stems from the gimme-gimme approach to money making, the idea that winning at life means spitting on the people who make less than you. We idolize the rich, when really we should only idolize their account balances, not the conduct that led to it.

Agree with all of the above, especially the last paragraph.


ubu


Oct 9, 2011, 6:34 PM
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petsfed wrote:
To the OP, if a person manages to dig themselves out of poverty without simply praying that things went right for a few months in a row, then they were never really in poverty to begin with.

When you pray that your kids don't get sick so you don't have to miss work toi take care of them. When you pray the bus isn't late so you don't get fired. When you pray that your landlord doesn't cash your rent check until after Tuesday, because the rent comes due the same day your pay check gets mailed. When you pray you don't get mugged walking home from work, since the $30 in your pocket is 3 months savings towards the books you'll need to buy to attend community college to try to improve your station.

Guangzhou, I'm sure you're proud of your mother for doing so much while starting with so little. I would be too. But what you failed to see was how lucky she was that that book-keeping position opened up. That she didn't get hit by an uninsured driver. That the bank offered *free* accounting lessons to their tellers. That at no point her manager elected to be sexist, racist, or fire her for any thing that her work ethic couldn't mitigate. That the economy didn't collapse in such a way that department stores, taco bells, and banks could no longer afford to take on additional workers.

Sure, its frustrating to hear about welfare princesses who are happy to collect their check but not actually work, but that isn't the story behind class warfare as its been dubbed.

The banks and the markets are just one part of a much deeper problem, they are its most visible agents. But the problem stems from the gimme-gimme approach to money making, the idea that winning at life means spitting on the people who make less than you. We idolize the rich, when really we should only idolize their account balances, not the conduct that led to it.

Great post. Very well put, all the way around.


rmsusa


Oct 10, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Luck us a big part of life. For everyone (most of all golfers).

To a certain extent, you can make your own luck by hanging out in places where opportunity comes by, working on a skill that you need, etc. but it's really just one big random experiment. How did you meed your girlfriend? What was your first job? What personality were you born with?, etc.

In reply to:
But the problem stems from the gimme-gimme approach to money making, the idea that winning at life means spitting on the people who make less than you.

IMHO this attitude is present in a WAY small part of the population. Many of those who have it lead marginalized lives, I think.


johnwesely


Oct 10, 2011, 9:31 AM
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The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Oct 10, 2011, 9:31 AM)


johnwesely


Oct 10, 2011, 9:50 AM
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FWIW, I don't see any opportunity in America, at least not enough to go around. I want to be a teacher. I grew hearing my entire life that America needed teacher. After graduating top of my class at the top school in the state, I have been unable to find a job. There are at least 150 applicants for every open teaching position. Of the people who graduated with me, only a few have found jobs. The ones who have got them through connections made through playing high school sports. Now, I am a substitute teacher and make minimum wage. I am not going to play the fake humble card. Someone with my aptitude should not be making minimum wage. I provide far more value than that, even as a sub. I feel betrayed by the system. The generation before mine royally screwed up my generations chance to be successful. In terms of the original point concerning personal responsibility, I agree 100%. Instead of sitting on my but, I am learning Spanish, so I can become ESOL certified and make myself more marketable. I am positioning myself so that when my lucky break comes, I can take full advantage of it and live the type of life I want, modest income and doing what I love.


curt


Oct 10, 2011, 11:26 AM
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atg200 wrote:
Private Americans are good at exploiting those types of programs to improve and profit from them, which is great. This is why it makes me sick to see all of these ass clown right wingers screaming about the Solyndra loan failure. That is exactly the sort of thing government should be doing. Even if 1000 programs like that fail, every one success that creates a game changer like the internet does more to build the economy than millions of little cottage industry types like you do.

While I agree with you in general, the Solyndra loan guarantee was a colossal blunder. Anyone who had even basic knowledge of the current photovoltaics markets knew (with certainty) that Solyndra was unavoidably headed for bankruptcy. And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming...

Curt


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2011, 6:55 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2011, 7:08 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
FWIW, I don't see any opportunity in America, at least not enough to go around. I want to be a teacher. I grew hearing my entire life that America needed teacher. After graduating top of my class at the top school in the state, I have been unable to find a job. There are at least 150 applicants for every open teaching position. Of the people who graduated with me, only a few have found jobs. The ones who have got them through connections made through playing high school sports.

If you really really want to be a teacher, move to the International School system. You can work in almost any country in the world, full benefits, housing expenses covered, America salaries or better, and you'll be tax free. Loads of job openings too.

In reply to:
Now, I am a substitute teacher and make minimum wage. I am not going to play the fake humble card. Someone with my aptitude should not be making minimum wage. I provide far more value than that, even as a sub. I feel betrayed by the system.

One problem is that to many people listened to we need teachers, and we do. So everyone decided to learn to teach without thinking about what would happen by the time it was time for them to start working.

In reply to:
The generation before mine royally screwed up my generations chance to be successful. In terms of the original point concerning personal responsibility, I agree 100%. Instead of sitting on my but, I am learning Spanish, so I can become ESOL certified and make myself more marketable. I am positioning myself so that when my lucky break comes, I can take full advantage of it and live the type of life I want, modest income and doing what I love.

Again, you are looking at the world through a very small microscope. Look abroad or in other states. Check out private schools.

Before you try to market yourself as a Spanish teacher, think about what programs will be cut first. Core subjects will make you the most marketable. Math, Science, and English. Elementary is less competitive than high school for finding jobs and Middle school is the easiest to enter.

They are also a few programs that will repay all your college loans if you teach where they need you most. Those programs will give you the experience you need to get other jobs. Of course, it means moving to place like Appalachia or the Bayous of Louisiana, but if you really really want to teach, you do what it takes to get started.

As for the system screwing you, you choose to study to become a teacher. Not sure when you started college, but teachers have been loosing their jobs, fighting low pay, and states have been cutting the education budget of over a decade now. Doesn't take rocket science to know it's not a fast growing field.

best bet, go International,
www.tieonline.com


superchuffer


Oct 10, 2011, 8:03 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
FWIW, I don't see any opportunity in America, at least not enough to go around. I want to be a teacher. I grew hearing my entire life that America needed teacher. After graduating top of my class at the top school in the state, I have been unable to find a job. There are at least 150 applicants for every open teaching position. Of the people who graduated with me, only a few have found jobs. The ones who have got them through connections made through playing high school sports. Now, I am a substitute teacher and make minimum wage. I am not going to play the fake humble card. Someone with my aptitude should not be making minimum wage. I provide far more value than that, even as a sub. I feel betrayed by the system. The generation before mine royally screwed up my generations chance to be successful. In terms of the original point concerning personal responsibility, I agree 100%. Instead of sitting on my but, I am learning Spanish, so I can become ESOL certified and make myself more marketable. I am positioning myself so that when my lucky break comes, I can take full advantage of it and live the type of life I want, modest income and doing what I love.

I'm a teacher and sorry to hear your story. if you don't have a reason to be in georgia, i would suggest moving west. more teaching positions, esp. in rural areas.


veganclimber


Oct 10, 2011, 8:06 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp


superchuffer


Oct 10, 2011, 8:07 PM
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Corporate greed and the bought off politicians are fucking this country for a last ounce of pie for themselves. Occupy is just the start... people are desperate... RIP the american dream.


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2011, 8:32 PM
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veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


dan2see


Oct 10, 2011, 8:34 PM
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GZ, you stink. Your advice stinks. You talk like everybody can take what-ever choices they choose, and they can succeed, or not.

Well I don't want to succeed, or not. I want to build a happy, useful, productive life. And I want to use my own experience, values, and skills.

All I have to do is try. Right? Ha! Lotsa luck baby!

Your advice is conceited, arrogant, cruel and cold-hearted. You advice should work for folks who share the approach, assets, and environment that you enjoy. I for one have no way of building a live like yours. The choices I have taken have been brilliant strategies -- but didn't work out. And frankly I don't know anybody who did better than I have. That is, I'm not penniless, but I am poor. Others in my world are broke, sick, or dead. So much for choices, and so much for the responsibility.

Advice that cannot be applied to the situation stinks. And when you show us how wonderful you have done -- well fine -- but don't set yourself up as a model for everybody else.


guangzhou


Oct 10, 2011, 8:49 PM
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dan2see wrote:
GZ, you stink. Your advice stinks. You talk like everybody can take what-ever choices they choose, and they can succeed, or not.

Well I don't want to succeed, or not. I want to build a happy, useful, productive life. And I want to use my own experience, values, and skills.

All I have to do is try. Right? Ha! Lotsa luck baby!

Your advice is conceited, arrogant, cruel and cold-hearted. You advice should work for folks who share the approach, assets, and environment that you enjoy. I for one have no way of building a live like yours.

Why do you believe this?
Why would you want to build a life like mine, I would not want anyone to copy my way way of living, I recommend people chose what they want to do and then work on making it happen.

In reply to:
The choices I have taken have been brilliant strategies -- but didn't work out.

How can something that is brilliant not work? That's like saying I have the solution but it don't fix the problem.

In reply to:
And frankly I don't know anybody who did better than I have. That is, I'm not penniless, but I am poor. Others in my world are broke, sick, or dead. So much for choices, and so much for the responsibility.

I don't know what you do, or what the folk you know do. I don't measure my personal success by money or income either, but by how much fun I have day to day.

In reply to:
Advice that cannot be applied to the situation stinks. And when you show us how wonderful you have done -- well fine -- but don't set yourself up as a model for everybody else.

Not sure I gave anyone any advice, the only person I came close to given advice too was someone who wanted to become a teacher, and their I gave him some other options he may not have considered.

So what advice did I give that can be applied to a situation?

I would never recommend someone follow in my footsteps, but I am willing to let people know what some of the opportunities I've seen are. What they do with the info is up to them.

I have not talked about how successful or not successful I have been. Mostly because I don't define success in the same way as other on this site do. Actually, I debt most of us have a very different definition of success here.


rmsusa


Oct 10, 2011, 9:15 PM
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In reply to:
Well I don't want to succeed, or not. I want to build a happy, useful, productive life. And I want to use my own experience, values, and skills.

Sounds like success to me!

In reply to:
The choices I have taken have been brilliant strategies -- but didn't work out.

Hmmmm....... Maybe not so brilliant?


robbovius


Oct 11, 2011, 4:15 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.

Are you fucking kidding me? this only reveals that you have no clue about the history and effect of the automobile in America. it has been the common mode of transportation in this country since the 1920s, since the Ford Model T. the Automobile IS our mass transit system, and the construction of the interstates only facilitated that.


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2011, 5:03 AM
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I agree, the car was mass transport. Not sure where I read it, but they were between 1.5 and 2.2 million cars on the roads by the 1940's. Might have been in the Ford Biography. About 1.5 million of them were Ford Model T.

The 1920 is when cars were first really being produced on a wide scale, but it was the late 20's before ordinary Americans could afford them. By the 1940, thanks to Ford's Assembly line more than his cars, cars were easier to buy, so more people owned them.

2.5 million of cars is still not much. When you consider that most roads were dirt roads before the second World War, getting a Ford Model to move off the interstates to land an airplane during times of emergencies would not have been overly difficult.

The 1950 was really the first time the Federal Government did anything to create a true interstate system. Because of the Cold War Threat, the federal government wanted an interstate system, mostly to move good for commerce and civilian in case of nuclear attack. Prior to that, people moved across the country on a system of Highways. (Yes, Highways and Interstates are different.)

While the administration may never have intended to use the system has airstrips, pointing out that the interstates were designed to do so help pass the funding through congress.


Not sure why you have to swear and curse. Don't agree, have a discussion instead of throwing a temper tantrum.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 11, 2011, 5:05 AM)


johnwesely


Oct 11, 2011, 5:32 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp


johnwesely


Oct 11, 2011, 5:35 AM
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superchuffer wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
FWIW, I don't see any opportunity in America, at least not enough to go around. I want to be a teacher. I grew hearing my entire life that America needed teacher. After graduating top of my class at the top school in the state, I have been unable to find a job. There are at least 150 applicants for every open teaching position. Of the people who graduated with me, only a few have found jobs. The ones who have got them through connections made through playing high school sports. Now, I am a substitute teacher and make minimum wage. I am not going to play the fake humble card. Someone with my aptitude should not be making minimum wage. I provide far more value than that, even as a sub. I feel betrayed by the system. The generation before mine royally screwed up my generations chance to be successful. In terms of the original point concerning personal responsibility, I agree 100%. Instead of sitting on my but, I am learning Spanish, so I can become ESOL certified and make myself more marketable. I am positioning myself so that when my lucky break comes, I can take full advantage of it and live the type of life I want, modest income and doing what I love.

I'm a teacher and sorry to hear your story. if you don't have a reason to be in georgia, i would suggest moving west. more teaching positions, esp. in rural areas.

I am moving next year.


johnwesely


Oct 11, 2011, 6:02 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Before you try to market yourself as a Spanish teacher, think about what programs will be cut first. Core subjects will make you the most marketable. Math, Science, and English. Elementary is less competitive than high school for finding jobs and Middle school is the easiest to enter.

Schools are required by law to provide instruction in English for foreign language students. While the number of foreign language students may not increase like it did in the last decade, I do not see it imploding altogether. In any case, knowing Spanish will make me much more marketable for all teaching jobs, not just ESOL. In addition, I plan on getting certified to teach Math, and Chemistry.

In reply to:
As for the system screwing you, you choose to study to become a teacher. Not sure when you started college, but teachers have been loosing their jobs, fighting low pay, and states have been cutting the education budget of over a decade now. Doesn't take rocket science to know it's not a fast growing field.

When the economy collapsed in Fall of 08, I was already into the teaching program and switching to anything else would have involved more years of school.

You don't have to tell me I have not done everything I could to get a job. I know that pretty well. In that sense I really have no right to complain. It is just odd to me that because of economic events that are no way inside my control, I have to jump through so many hoops to land a job with such low pay and prestige as a school teacher. Not to mention that when I do finally manage to start teaching, there will be hundreds of other equally qualified applicants left twiddling their thumbs.


johnwesely


Oct 11, 2011, 6:06 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.

This is how I see it, and I may be wrong. I am not exactly an expert strategist. It seems that airplanes primary function is offensive rather than defensive. When airplanes are defending, they are defending against other airplanes. An excess of landing strips via the interstate seems like it would be an advantage for the invader rather than America, which already has its own landing infrastructure.


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2011, 6:32 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Before you try to market yourself as a Spanish teacher, think about what programs will be cut first. Core subjects will make you the most marketable. Math, Science, and English. Elementary is less competitive than high school for finding jobs and Middle school is the easiest to enter.

Schools are required by law to provide instruction in English for foreign language students. While the number of foreign language students may not increase like it did in the last decade, I do not see it imploding altogether. In any case, knowing Spanish will make me much more marketable for all teaching jobs, not just ESOL. In addition, I plan on getting certified to teach Math, and Chemistry.

I am very aware that schools are required to have ESL programs. I've always thought the hoop jumping for becoming a teacher, even when I was going through it, was a bit over the top.

Before you move out west,keep in mind that every state has it's own licensing requirement for teachers. Make sure you qualification are acceptable before you move.

In reply to:
As for the system screwing you, you choose to study to become a teacher. Not sure when you started college, but teachers have been loosing their jobs, fighting low pay, and states have been cutting the education budget of over a decade now. Doesn't take rocket science to know it's not a fast growing field.

When the economy collapsed in Fall of 08, I was already into the teaching program and switching to anything else would have involved more years of school.
The lack of teaching jobs and schools having no money, and more applicants than position came long before the economy collapses in 2008.

In reply to:
You don't have to tell me I have not done everything I could to get a job. I know that pretty well. In that sense I really have no right to complain. It is just odd to me that because of economic events that are no way inside my control, I have to jump through so many hoops to land a job with such low pay and prestige as a school teacher. Not to mention that when I do finally manage to start teaching, there will be hundreds of other equally qualified applicants left twiddling their thumbs.

Again, I know the economy has headed south, but teaching jobs were effected long before 2008. I don't know what you have done or not done to get a job, not even sure if you're out of school yet.

For this school year, I was offered teaching positions in TN, Georgia, and California all with public schools. They had a resume on me from years ago. I am not certified in any of those states, but they wanted me to teach Middle School Math. My Degree is in Communication. All said they would grant me emergency credential because of my years of experience teaching Math.

You live in Georgia, a state that has very good education, I am surprised you're having so much trouble finding a job there to be honest, but public education budgets have been suffering for years, teachers have been complaining about pay for decades, and voters have been have been complaining about the system for well who know.

You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

If you're not against living overseas, I still recommend you check out tieonline. Shoot me an email and I lend you access to the site so you can see the positions listed and if you like something posted, you cans end off your resume.

I think that choosing to become a public school teacher in America today is not a good long term career choice. To much is dependent on the politician in charge for that term, the school-board in charge for that year, and the Federal Government's Education Flavor of the year.

best things about teaching, the students and the schedule. Trust me when I say you earn your summers.


johnwesely


Oct 11, 2011, 6:53 AM
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guangzhou wrote:

The lack of teaching jobs and schools having no money, and more applicants than position came long before the economy collapses in 2008.

That may be the case, but that was not what every single adult I trusted at the time was telling me. I was naive, and they gave me no reason to do further research.

In reply to:
You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

I really enjoy teaching and believe good teachers are vital to a successful society, but I really don't get that impression when I watch the news, listen to politicians, or hear people talk about teaching, especially recently.

In reply to:
If you're not against living overseas, I still recommend you check out tieonline. Shoot me an email and I lend you access to the site so you can see the positions listed and if you like something posted, you cans end off your resume.

I really appreciate the offer, but I could not do the overseas thing.

In reply to:
I think that choosing to become a public school teacher in America today is not a good long term career choice. To much is dependent on the politician in charge for that term, the school-board in charge for that year, and the Federal Government's Education Flavor of the year.

Trust me when I say I feel the same way, but right now, I don't know what else to do. I could do grad school, but that path is even riskier than what I am doing right now. I could go to law school, but I don't really want to be a lawyer, and the employment rate for lawyers is atrocious, not to mention the mass amount of debt I would accumulate.


scrapedape


Oct 11, 2011, 8:36 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:

The lack of teaching jobs and schools having no money, and more applicants than position came long before the economy collapses in 2008.

That may be the case, but that was not what every single adult I trusted at the time was telling me. I was naive, and they gave me no reason to do further research.

If there's a silver lining here, it's that you learned this lesson as early as you did.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 11, 2011, 9:11 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


Consider for a moment that not only are you wrong, but you have even been supplied with the evidence to show that you are wrong, and you still will not budge.

Also, I was in the military, and this was NEVER suggested, but instead, that Ike was impressed with the German highway system, and their ability to move troops and stuff on it, and we did it for the same reason.

Think about that, my friend... If you are wrong, what would convince you of this? It seems as if nothing would, and that is not reasonable.


And this...
"...not sure where I heard/read it..." or "...taught as fact."

This is how Michelle B-man argues... If you are going to throw out 'facts' then you should substanciate them with evidence of such facts.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 11, 2011, 9:19 AM)


curt


Oct 11, 2011, 9:20 AM
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rrrADAM wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


Consider for a moment that not only are you wrong, but you have even been supplied with the evidence to show that you are wrong, and you still will not budge.

Also, I was in the military, and this was NEVER suggested, but instead, that Ike was impressed with the German highway system, and their ability to move troops and stuff on it, and we did it for the same reason.

Think about that, my friend... If you are wrong, what would convince you of this? It seems as if nothing would, and that is not reasonable.


And this...
"...not sure where I heard/read it..." or "...taught as fact."

This is how Michelle B-man argues... If you are going to throw out 'facts' then you should substanciate them with evidence of such facts.

guangzhou = reno?

Curt


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2011, 9:19 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:

The lack of teaching jobs and schools having no money, and more applicants than position came long before the economy collapses in 2008.

That may be the case, but that was not what every single adult I trusted at the time was telling me. I was naive, and they gave me no reason to do further research.

In reply to:
You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

I really enjoy teaching and believe good teachers are vital to a successful society, but I really don't get that impression when I watch the news, listen to politicians, or hear people talk about teaching, especially recently.

In reply to:
If you're not against living overseas, I still recommend you check out tieonline. Shoot me an email and I lend you access to the site so you can see the positions listed and if you like something posted, you cans end off your resume.

I really appreciate the offer, but I could not do the overseas thing.

In reply to:
I think that choosing to become a public school teacher in America today is not a good long term career choice. To much is dependent on the politician in charge for that term, the school-board in charge for that year, and the Federal Government's Education Flavor of the year.

Trust me when I say I feel the same way, but right now, I don't know what else to do. I could do grad school, but that path is even riskier than what I am doing right now. I could go to law school, but I don't really want to be a lawyer, and the employment rate for lawyers is atrocious, not to mention the mass amount of debt I would accumulate.


Another misconception today is that more school is the best way to move forward.

have you considered starting in Private schools instead of public school?


guangzhou


Oct 11, 2011, 9:40 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


Consider for a moment that not only are you wrong, but you have even been supplied with the evidence to show that you are wrong, and you still will not budge.

Also, I was in the military, and this was NEVER suggested, but instead, that Ike was impressed with the German highway system, and their ability to move troops and stuff on it, and we did it for the same reason.

Think about that, my friend... If you are wrong, what would convince you of this? It seems as if nothing would, and that is not reasonable.


And this...
"...not sure where I heard/read it..." or "...taught as fact."

This is how Michelle B-man argues... If you are going to throw out 'facts' then you should substanciate them with evidence of such facts.

I remember hearing this about the autobahn too. Eisenhower was a lieutenant when he had to cross the U.S. with troops to do a feasibility study of mass troops movement. As a logistical expert during the wars, you could say he was fascinated with making transportation in the U.S. more efficient.

While I was in the Army and while doing a historical tour of war sites in Germany lead by a German university professor. German did land planes on the system, which could explain why it was planned here in America.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...structure/turner.cfm

The funding was for the The National Highway Defense System before it was renamed the Federal Aid Highway act. This is where the Straight strips were proposed to get funding approved by a Red Scared Congress, whether the strips were ever implemented, I don't know, but they were part of the original design and helped with funding for sure.

Again, you can look at what people did half a century ago and say it won't work because of what exist today. Prior to roads, American were building canals to move goods all over the place. Actually, those Canals led to one of the First Economic Bubbles to burst.

Also, the original Interstate system was not what it is today. It was a much smaller project that has grown over the years, both in millage and funding.

As for not sure where I read it, I read a lot and don't remember every book by hearth. I did say which book I thought is was.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 11, 2011, 9:44 PM)


johnwesely


Oct 12, 2011, 3:19 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
have you considered starting in Private schools instead of public school?

Yes, but I came to that realization a little too late for it to make a difference this year.


superchuffer


Oct 12, 2011, 6:13 AM
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In reply to:
You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

prestigious means how society views something, not you personally. you may find teaching personally rewarding, but society, especially the fox news republicans and tea baggers, shit on it whenever possible.

people like you that put teaching on a pedestal marginalizes and patronizes the profession. people then assume they can pay teachers and aides nothing because they are so happy raising the brats of modern society.

i have been teaching for 15 years and if i had to do it over again, i wouldn't be a teacher. i have some level of job security, but i will never make significantly more than i do now.


dr_feelgood


Oct 12, 2011, 7:07 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:

The lack of teaching jobs and schools having no money, and more applicants than position came long before the economy collapses in 2008.

That may be the case, but that was not what every single adult I trusted at the time was telling me. I was naive, and they gave me no reason to do further research.

In reply to:
You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

I really enjoy teaching and believe good teachers are vital to a successful society, but I really don't get that impression when I watch the news, listen to politicians, or hear people talk about teaching, especially recently.

In reply to:
If you're not against living overseas, I still recommend you check out tieonline. Shoot me an email and I lend you access to the site so you can see the positions listed and if you like something posted, you cans end off your resume.

I really appreciate the offer, but I could not do the overseas thing.

In reply to:
I think that choosing to become a public school teacher in America today is not a good long term career choice. To much is dependent on the politician in charge for that term, the school-board in charge for that year, and the Federal Government's Education Flavor of the year.

Trust me when I say I feel the same way, but right now, I don't know what else to do. I could do grad school, but that path is even riskier than what I am doing right now. I could go to law school, but I don't really want to be a lawyer, and the employment rate for lawyers is atrocious, not to mention the mass amount of debt I would accumulate.


Another misconception today is that more school is the best way to move forward.

have you considered starting in Private schools instead of public school?

Whoo! Another attack on the intelligentsia!


petsfed


Oct 12, 2011, 9:03 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Another misconception today is that more school is the best way to move forward.

Considering that a basic level of education in a field (e.g. a bachelor's) is only good for a low level technician job, I'd say that if you're looking for a good balance of job security and fast advancement, specialization (e.g. more schooling) is the best way forward.


chadnsc


Oct 12, 2011, 10:51 AM
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petsfed wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Another misconception today is that more school is the best way to move forward.

Considering that a basic level of education in a field (e.g. a bachelor's) is only good for a low level technician job, I'd say that if you're looking for a good balance of job security and fast advancement, specialization (e.g. more schooling) is the best way forward.

I wonder about that.

It seems that many degrees today are so specialized that in a way they are basically four year tech degrees. In today's economy such specialization has caused problems. Take me for example, I am an architect (a bachelor's degree) and my industry is suffering from a 35% unemployment.

A college of mine involved in education thinks that what the future needs is a less specialized education and more of a liberal arts degree to teach problem solving skills.

I'm not saying that this is correct but it does make me wonder.


petsfed


Oct 12, 2011, 12:59 PM
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Well, you can address the circle-of-knowledge requirements without detracting from actual ability. Which is to say, if you can get the students to actually remember something after the test, you don't need to require half a dozen more basket-weaving, chicano studies, and comparative religion classes out of a mechanical engineer. That is to say, if the students are actually benefited from the first half-dozen courses that weren't part of their major, then you would probably see their broader problem solving skills improve. As it stands, if I was too lazy to see the higher-order connections between philosophy and physics the first go around, chances are I'm going to be just as lazy the second time around.


scrapedape


Oct 12, 2011, 1:23 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
I remember hearing this about the autobahn too. Eisenhower was a lieutenant when he had to cross the U.S. with troops to do a feasibility study of mass troops movement. As a logistical expert during the wars, you could say he was fascinated with making transportation in the U.S. more efficient.

While I was in the Army and while doing a historical tour of war sites in Germany lead by a German university professor. German did land planes on the system, which could explain why it was planned here in America.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...structure/turner.cfm

The funding was for the The National Highway Defense System before it was renamed the Federal Aid Highway act. This is where the Straight strips were proposed to get funding approved by a Red Scared Congress, whether the strips were ever implemented, I don't know, but they were part of the original design and helped with funding for sure.

Again, you can look at what people did half a century ago and say it won't work because of what exist today. Prior to roads, American were building canals to move goods all over the place. Actually, those Canals led to one of the First Economic Bubbles to burst.

Also, the original Interstate system was not what it is today. It was a much smaller project that has grown over the years, both in millage and funding.

As for not sure where I read it, I read a lot and don't remember every book by hearth. I did say which book I thought is was.

guangzhou does seem to have reno's knack for posting links that completely contradict his own argument.

His link from the outset states that this was a peripheral consideration in the design of the Interstate system, not its raison d'etre:

In reply to:
One of the things that we did just as a sideline on the Autobahns; after we got a start on the thing . . . we actually went over there and looked at the Autobahns in that regard to include and to incorporate into the Interstate Program (in the design) some of the concepts that they had over there. The Air Force, particularly pushed us on this. I suppose you're familiar with [the fact that one] of our major airports over there that was a part of the Autobahn. In fact, the Autobahn was used originally as runways. The airport was built right on the Autobahn . . . .

Next the interviewee notes the secretive nature of the Air Force's requests. It doesn't seem like much of a selling point if it's classified.

In reply to:
After the war in the early ''50s, we were pressured pretty hard by the Air Force to build into the Interstate System exactly that same capability... So, periodically, about every 40-50 miles, we'd have about a three-mile section there that would meet those requirements. This was to be highly classified, of course.

Finally, he notes that despite the Air Force's wishes, this scheme was abandoned as unworkable:

In reply to:
I sent a guy, a team actually, over to Europe with a team from the Air Force headquarters to look at that particular point and see if we could incorporate it. They came back with the conclusion that from a practical standpoint we couldn't really do it. Not because we couldn't do it physically, but we could not, with our projections of traffic use and the kind of controls that would be required to permit emergency use of that thing, except as you took all the highway traffic off entirely. Made it exclusively a runway. It had to be one or the other. It couldn't-maybe today it'd be this way and this afternoon it'd be something different. We just couldn't mold those two concepts together. So it was abandoned, but it was abandoned for that kind of reason, rather than the physical capability of it. But the design of the interstate was based on all this accumulation of material, basic data, traffic counts, economy, everything else that prohibited any intrusion into that concept by something like emergency strips. Part of the system's consideration was defense use by the military. Even if we did that for the Air Force, the Air Force would then be competing with the Transportation Corps on the ground that moving convoys, which one's going to get the green light.


(This post was edited by scrapedape on Oct 12, 2011, 1:28 PM)


traddad


Oct 12, 2011, 1:49 PM
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scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
I remember hearing this about the autobahn too. Eisenhower was a lieutenant when he had to cross the U.S. with troops to do a feasibility study of mass troops movement. As a logistical expert during the wars, you could say he was fascinated with making transportation in the U.S. more efficient.

While I was in the Army and while doing a historical tour of war sites in Germany lead by a German university professor. German did land planes on the system, which could explain why it was planned here in America.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...structure/turner.cfm

The funding was for the The National Highway Defense System before it was renamed the Federal Aid Highway act. This is where the Straight strips were proposed to get funding approved by a Red Scared Congress, whether the strips were ever implemented, I don't know, but they were part of the original design and helped with funding for sure.

Again, you can look at what people did half a century ago and say it won't work because of what exist today. Prior to roads, American were building canals to move goods all over the place. Actually, those Canals led to one of the First Economic Bubbles to burst.

Also, the original Interstate system was not what it is today. It was a much smaller project that has grown over the years, both in millage and funding.

As for not sure where I read it, I read a lot and don't remember every book by hearth. I did say which book I thought is was.

guangzhou does seem to have reno's knack for posting links that completely contradict his own argument.

His link from the outset states that this was a peripheral consideration in the design of the Interstate system, not its raison d'etre:

In reply to:
One of the things that we did just as a sideline on the Autobahns; after we got a start on the thing . . . we actually went over there and looked at the Autobahns in that regard to include and to incorporate into the Interstate Program (in the design) some of the concepts that they had over there. The Air Force, particularly pushed us on this. I suppose you're familiar with [the fact that one] of our major airports over there that was a part of the Autobahn. In fact, the Autobahn was used originally as runways. The airport was built right on the Autobahn . . . .

Next the interviewee notes the secretive nature of the Air Force's requests. It doesn't seem like much of a selling point if it's classified.

In reply to:
After the war in the early ''50s, we were pressured pretty hard by the Air Force to build into the Interstate System exactly that same capability... So, periodically, about every 40-50 miles, we'd have about a three-mile section there that would meet those requirements. This was to be highly classified, of course.

Finally, he notes that despite the Air Force's wishes, this scheme was abandoned as unworkable:

In reply to:
I sent a guy, a team actually, over to Europe with a team from the Air Force headquarters to look at that particular point and see if we could incorporate it. They came back with the conclusion that from a practical standpoint we couldn't really do it. Not because we couldn't do it physically, but we could not, with our projections of traffic use and the kind of controls that would be required to permit emergency use of that thing, except as you took all the highway traffic off entirely. Made it exclusively a runway. It had to be one or the other. It couldn't-maybe today it'd be this way and this afternoon it'd be something different. We just couldn't mold those two concepts together. So it was abandoned, but it was abandoned for that kind of reason, rather than the physical capability of it. But the design of the interstate was based on all this accumulation of material, basic data, traffic counts, economy, everything else that prohibited any intrusion into that concept by something like emergency strips. Part of the system's consideration was defense use by the military. Even if we did that for the Air Force, the Air Force would then be competing with the Transportation Corps on the ground that moving convoys, which one's going to get the green light.


....and don't you DARE tell John Galt the railroads were subsidized......


guangzhou


Oct 13, 2011, 5:15 AM
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superchuffer wrote:
In reply to:
You comment on teaching not being prestigious, I don't agree. I find it to be among the most noble and important professions in the world. I love my time in the class room and the only reason I left education was I wanted to earn more income and still climb a to.

prestigious means how society views something, not you personally. you may find teaching personally rewarding, but society, especially the fox news republicans and tea baggers, shit on it whenever possible.

people like you that put teaching on a pedestal marginalizes and patronizes the profession. people then assume they can pay teachers and aides nothing because they are so happy raising the brats of modern society.

People like me decide to quit after teaching Middle School for a decade.

As long as teachers don't quit and other people are lining-up for teaching jobs even though the pay is bad, the salaries teaching won't rise. School Systems and State Governments don't assume they can pay teachers badly, they know it. They know because teachers are not quitting left and right, instead, they keep volunteering for more or holding on because even-though the pay sucks, the the system provides "job security."

Teachers who complain about bad pay and don't quit teaching are the reason why pay doesn't go up in teaching.


In reply to:
i have been teaching for 15 years and if i had to do it over again, i wouldn't be a teacher. i have some level of job security, but i will never make significantly more than i do now.

After ten years of teaching, I decided to quit the field and do something completely different because I know that salaries won't go up in my life time.

While I felt I made "ok" money, especially once I moved overseas to various schools that cater to the consulate services, and had living expenses covered, and didn't pay taxes, I still felt like I could do something that used less of my time and made me more money.

So, although I love being in the classroom, I didn't see my students as brats, my test scored were two to three grade levels higher than grade level, I still quit teaching because I wanted to earn more money and have move opportunity to take climbing trips during non vacation times. (Less crowded areas, cheaper airfare, and more variety of places to visit.)

By the way, you can change careers.

Teacher really want the system to pay them more, more teachers need to quit for higher paying jobs.

I am not sure how much job security teachers actually have in today's world.

Regardless of job security or pay, I would not work in a job I didn't enjoy.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 13, 2011, 5:42 AM)


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 13, 2011, 9:41 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


Consider for a moment that not only are you wrong, but you have even been supplied with the evidence to show that you are wrong, and you still will not budge.

Also, I was in the military, and this was NEVER suggested, but instead, that Ike was impressed with the German highway system, and their ability to move troops and stuff on it, and we did it for the same reason.

Think about that, my friend... If you are wrong, what would convince you of this? It seems as if nothing would, and that is not reasonable.


And this...
"...not sure where I heard/read it..." or "...taught as fact."

This is how Michelle B-man argues... If you are going to throw out 'facts' then you should substanciate them with evidence of such facts.

I remember hearing this about the autobahn too. Eisenhower was a lieutenant when he had to cross the U.S. with troops to do a feasibility study of mass troops movement. As a logistical expert during the wars, you could say he was fascinated with making transportation in the U.S. more efficient.

While I was in the Army and while doing a historical tour of war sites in Germany lead by a German university professor. German did land planes on the system, which could explain why it was planned here in America.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...structure/turner.cfm

The funding was for the The National Highway Defense System before it was renamed the Federal Aid Highway act. This is where the Straight strips were proposed to get funding approved by a Red Scared Congress, whether the strips were ever implemented, I don't know, but they were part of the original design and helped with funding for sure.

Again, you can look at what people did half a century ago and say it won't work because of what exist today. Prior to roads, American were building canals to move goods all over the place. Actually, those Canals led to one of the First Economic Bubbles to burst.

Also, the original Interstate system was not what it is today. It was a much smaller project that has grown over the years, both in millage and funding.

As for not sure where I read it, I read a lot and don't remember every book by hearth. I did say which book I thought is was.

Not that you will get it, but it's worth a try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect

Be sure to reference their published paper:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/...ep=rep1&type=pdf


guangzhou


Oct 13, 2011, 10:34 PM
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rrrADAM wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
In reply to:

The only reason we have a great interstate is that the government wanted alternate landing strips in case we were invaded. I do believe that a country's road system should be nationalized. It's part of a country's infrastructure.

This is an urban legend and pretty nonsensical if you stop to think about it.

Urban legend taught in the various Military academies as fact.

http://www.snopes.com/autos/law/airstrip.asp

Nice link, and while I agree that in today's world it makes no sense, we are talking about America before the car was the common mode of transportation. America before they were "private landing strips" to help.


Consider for a moment that not only are you wrong, but you have even been supplied with the evidence to show that you are wrong, and you still will not budge.

Also, I was in the military, and this was NEVER suggested, but instead, that Ike was impressed with the German highway system, and their ability to move troops and stuff on it, and we did it for the same reason.

Think about that, my friend... If you are wrong, what would convince you of this? It seems as if nothing would, and that is not reasonable.


And this...
"...not sure where I heard/read it..." or "...taught as fact."

This is how Michelle B-man argues... If you are going to throw out 'facts' then you should substanciate them with evidence of such facts.

I remember hearing this about the autobahn too. Eisenhower was a lieutenant when he had to cross the U.S. with troops to do a feasibility study of mass troops movement. As a logistical expert during the wars, you could say he was fascinated with making transportation in the U.S. more efficient.

While I was in the Army and while doing a historical tour of war sites in Germany lead by a German university professor. German did land planes on the system, which could explain why it was planned here in America.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...structure/turner.cfm

The funding was for the The National Highway Defense System before it was renamed the Federal Aid Highway act. This is where the Straight strips were proposed to get funding approved by a Red Scared Congress, whether the strips were ever implemented, I don't know, but they were part of the original design and helped with funding for sure.

Again, you can look at what people did half a century ago and say it won't work because of what exist today. Prior to roads, American were building canals to move goods all over the place. Actually, those Canals led to one of the First Economic Bubbles to burst.

Also, the original Interstate system was not what it is today. It was a much smaller project that has grown over the years, both in millage and funding.

As for not sure where I read it, I read a lot and don't remember every book by hearth. I did say which book I thought is was.

Not that you will get it, but it's worth a try:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...2%80%93Kruger_effect

Be sure to reference their published paper:
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/...ep=rep1&type=pdf

Thanks, I am now convinced highways has landing strips urban legend. Appreciate all the time you guys took to convince me. This topic was keeping me up at nights for sure.

On the case Study, I read this along time ago, but thanks for bringing it up. What I've learned in life is to read and question, not just to read and accept.

Questions:

Have you noticed that all of the 45 participants in the case study were all Cornell University Students. Cornell is not a bottom tear school last I checked.Wink

I wonder how much ego was involved in Cornell Students.

How many of societies lower quartile students get accepted into Cornell? Could being told you're good enough to attend an Ivy League School cause some misconception about how competent someone is?

Also, looking at the charts that represent the researchers data, it seems that roughly 70% of participants mis-estimated their abilities.
A side note, the participants average estimation of their performance was 66% if I am still reading the chart correctly.

Seems strange to me a Cornell University Student would honestly believe his grammar to be at 66%.

Whether you over estimate or under estimate you ability, you mis-estimated. Either way, you are wrong about how you perform and you didn't get a good self-performance estimate.

While the study implies that the more competent you are, the better you are estimating yourself, the data it sites doesn't support that. After all, if you score 90% and "estimate you scored 80%, you're still not competent at evaluating you ability.

In the last 10 to 15 years, the same journal that published this case study has published other case studies that both support and refutes it's findings. I am not the only one who remains unconvinced.

I wonder what would happen if this case study was done with people who were told their whole life they were below average. I bet we would get the opposite findings.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 13, 2011, 11:51 PM)


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 14, 2011, 8:12 AM
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As I said...
In reply to:
Not that you will get it, but it's worth a try...

Take the time to digest the info, instead of attempting to instantly regergiutate what you think it means, convinced that you are now an expert in that field as well (I.e., more so than those who conducted the study).

Hint... This IS the point of the study.

Example... If you bothered to actually read and digest the details, rather than scan and dismiss, you would see that there have been expanded folow-up studies:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S074959780700060X



Edit... There is almsot a rich irony in the title of your own thread here when juxtaposed with your apparent inability to be wrong as evidenced by your replies when given information that shows you are wrong.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 14, 2011, 10:09 AM)


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