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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 8:29 PM
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Here are some terms as they are defined by the “Wikipedia Glossary of climbing terms” page. First off do you agree with these definitions? Secondly, what should the finals of a bouldering competition with isolation be known as? In those comps the climbers have no previous knowledge of the climb. However, you are allowed multiple attempts, and there is no gear involved. I have heard the terms RedPoint, On-sight, and Flash format used for comps with Isolations. However, most sport comps would have pre placed gear so Red-Point doesn’t apply to them. In addition, bouldering comps allow multiple attempts and do not allow any beta so I don’t think On-sight and Flash would really apply there either. In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? What would you call a climb that is completed on the First attempt without any beta? An On-sight or an On-sight Flash? http://en.wikipedia.org/..._of_climbing_terms#O Flash To successfully and cleanly complete a climbing route on the first attempt after having received beta of some form. Also refers to an ascent of this type. For ascents on the first attempt without receiving beta see on-sight. Beta flash The clean ascent of a climb on the first attempt, having previously obtained beta or while having beta shouted up from the ground en route. Also see on-sight. On-sight A clean ascent, with no prior practice or beta. Pinkpoint To complete a lead climb without falling or resting on the rope (hangdogging), but with pre-placed protection and carabiners. Also see clean and redpoint. Redpoint To complete a lead climb after making previous unsuccessful attempts, done without falling or resting on the rope (hangdogging). Also see clean and pinkpoint.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Oct 11, 2011, 8:41 PM)
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 11, 2011, 8:52 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 8:54 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt?
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 11, 2011, 9:04 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Josh
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marc801
Oct 11, 2011, 9:07 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? The only difference between pinkpoint and redpoint is that the draws are already hung on a pinkpoint - but in both cases there has been at least one unsuccessful attempt, thus the climber has at least some prior knowledge of the moves. Doing something successfully on the first attempt with no prior knowledge is an on-sight. As blueeyedclimber notes, pinkpoint really isn't used anymore. Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"?
(This post was edited by marc801 on Oct 11, 2011, 9:10 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 9:07 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Josh That makes sense. However, it still isn’t clear if a Pinkpoint can be achieved on anything other than your first attempt.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Oct 12, 2011, 5:32 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 11, 2011, 9:10 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Josh That makes sense. However, it still isn’t clear if a Redpoint can be achieved on anything other than your first attempt. a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). What beta is, however, is open to debate. Josh
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 9:10 PM
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marc801 wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? The only difference between pinkpoint and redpoint is that the draws are already hung on a pinkpoint - but in both cases there has been at least one unsuccessful attempt, thus the climber has at least some prior knowledge of the moves. Doing something successfully on the first attempt with no prior knowledge is an on-sight. Thank you. So is there a term for doing a climb without any beta not on your first attempt? Or is doing the climb multiple times considered beta even though no one else has assisted the climber?
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Oct 11, 2011, 9:11 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 9:12 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: What beta is, however, is open to debate. Josh Thanks for the response that is the part I didn't understand. I see now that the interpretation of beta is the issue here.
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csproul
Oct 11, 2011, 9:14 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: marc801 wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? The only difference between pinkpoint and redpoint is that the draws are already hung on a pinkpoint - but in both cases there has been at least one unsuccessful attempt, thus the climber has at least some prior knowledge of the moves. Doing something successfully on the first attempt with no prior knowledge is an on-sight. Thank you. So is there a term for doing a climb without any beta not on your first attempt? Or is doing the climb multiple times considered beta even though no one else has assisted the climber? If you've attempted/been on the climb, then you have beta. That'd make it a redpoint attempt. Like was said above, pinkpoint is (becoming) an antiquated term.
(This post was edited by csproul on Oct 11, 2011, 9:15 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 9:18 PM
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marc801 wrote: Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"? The only difference is that in preliminary rounds for bouldering comps you can watch other climbers climb first. In the finals you can try multiple times but you have no additional help from seeing other climbers climb it.
(This post was edited by JasonsDrivingForce on Oct 11, 2011, 9:24 PM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 11, 2011, 9:23 PM
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Does Redpoint apply to bouldering or does it need to strictly be lead climbing like that definition says?
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csproul
Oct 11, 2011, 9:25 PM
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marc801 wrote: ... Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"? They make perfect sense in the context of a comp. Of the few comps I have been to, before the finals, maximum points were awarded for a flash of a problem, and lower point values awarded for subsequent attempts (redpoint, although the term is not really used in bouldering). For finals, the comps were onsight format, meaning that competitors did not get to see the route until they were to climb it and were not allowed to watch other competitors attempt the route/problem. Finalist only got one shot at the finals route, so they either got the onsight or they didn't get the route at all. Finalist who did not complete the route were placed by how far they got on the route. So the term may not describe an event, but when the competitors are forced to attempt routes "onsight" then I think it is a fair way to describe the competition format.
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csproul
Oct 11, 2011, 9:29 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Does Redpoint apply to bouldering or does it need to strictly be lead climbing like that definition says? The word is not really often used in the context of bouldering. I have only heard it during comps, and usually it is to clearify the comp format (i.e. you are allowed to try boulder problems more than once). Most boulderers would say they flashed a boulder problem (if they got it 1st try) or that they "sent" a boulder problem. Sending a boulder problem is basically the equivalent to redpointing a route.
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marc801
Oct 11, 2011, 9:54 PM
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csproul wrote: marc801 wrote: ... Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"? They make perfect sense in the context of a comp. Of the few comps I have been to, before the finals, maximum points were awarded for a flash of a problem, and lower point values awarded for subsequent attempts (redpoint, although the term is not really used in bouldering). For finals, the comps were onsight format, meaning that competitors did not get to see the route until they were to climb it and were not allowed to watch other competitors attempt the route/problem. Finalist only got one shot at the finals route, so they either got the onsight or they didn't get the route at all. Finalist who did not complete the route were placed by how far they got on the route. So the term may not describe an event, but when the competitors are forced to attempt routes "onsight" then I think it is a fair way to describe the competition format. I get it now. So the OP is really looking for an appropriate descriptor of the format of the finals round. I still think Finals is fine with perhaps mention of On Sight Format. Iso-Finals?
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JasonsDrivingForce
Oct 12, 2011, 12:28 AM
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Thanks, I think the responses have answered my question. I did learn a lot though. Do you agree with the wiki definitions for the terms? Do any of them need more clarification to be accurate or more up to date with what is commonly used now?
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marc801
Oct 12, 2011, 12:59 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Do you agree with the wiki definitions for the terms? Do any of them need more clarification to be accurate or more up to date with what is commonly used now? Well, for starters, clarifying pinkpoint so others don't have the confusion you did. Secondly, doing a route "cleanly" has been the subject of debate in the past here, so clarifying that to mean no falls, no hanging, no gear taking any weight, would probably help as well.
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shockabuku
Oct 12, 2011, 1:11 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Thanks, I think the responses have answered my question. I did learn a lot though. Do you agree with the wiki definitions for the terms? Do any of them need more clarification to be accurate or more up to date with what is commonly used now? Here's my favorite: multiple attempt on-sight. In my experience there are so many variations of competition type to include iso/no iso, beta/no beta, onsight, redpoint, different scoring variations, etc. that it takes more than one word to describe the format. I don't think I've ever seen an on-sight bouldering comp, usually multiple attempts are allowed at all stages, and in finals it is pretty standard for competitors to be in iso. Occasionally people will use the governing body to identify the rules, i.e. World Cup format which is pretty well specified.
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yanqui
Oct 12, 2011, 2:38 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Thanks, I think the responses have answered my question. I did learn a lot though. Do you agree with the wiki definitions for the terms? Do any of them need more clarification to be accurate or more up to date with what is commonly used now? As mentioned above, sport climbers normally "redpoint" with the draws preplaced. I don't think I've ever heard anyone seriously use the word "pinkpoint". E.g. nobody (I know) says Sharma "pinkpointed" Realization, Jumbo Love, etc., even though the draws were already in place: as if we were still waiting for the "true" redpoint of these routes. Anyways, once you've placed the draws to work a route, it does seem kinda silly to pull them out and then turn around and replace them when you're ready for the send. However, for the high end "trad redpoint" I think people tend to make a deal about the distinction between redpointing with the gear preplaced and placing the gear on the redpoint attempt. In this case, if you wanna do the better style I think it's generally accepted you should place gear when redpointing.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Oct 12, 2011, 2:52 AM)
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olderic
Oct 12, 2011, 3:02 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too.
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cracklover
Oct 12, 2011, 3:14 PM
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olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too. Is correct ^^^ BTW, regarding the term pinkpoint - while it's pretty much gone from sport climbing, on the rare occasions in which I or my partners lead a trad climb on pre-placed gear, we certainly do use the phrase pinkpoint. And the term "pink" is a wonderfully effective signifier for just what a truly macho style you used to get up the climb. G
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olderic
Oct 12, 2011, 3:23 PM
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cracklover wrote: olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too. Is correct ^^^ BTW, regarding the term pinkpoint - while it's pretty much gone from sport climbing, on the rare occasions in which I or my partners lead a trad climb on pre-placed gear, we certainly do use the phrase pinkpoint. And the term "pink" is a wonderfully effective signifier for just what a truly macho style you used to get up the climb. G There was a significant accident and a major hub-bub on the GT ledge below Limelight when a trad pinkpoint attempt went bad. Everybody describing the accident used the term "pinkpoint" - so I would say that the concept and understanding of the definition is still pretty wide spread. It's dismissed in the sport world mainly because of the trickle down effect - the big boys (and girls) can't be bothered ( for semi legitimate reasons on cutting edge routes) and every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to emulate them.
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donald949
Oct 12, 2011, 5:47 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Josh That makes sense. However, it still isn’t clear if a Redpoint can be achieved on anything other than your first attempt. a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). What beta is, however, is open to debate. Josh Let not forget my favorite style. Hangdog. The first attempt, with falls.
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marc801
Oct 12, 2011, 6:00 PM
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donald949 wrote: Let not forget my favorite style. Hangdog. The first attempt, with falls. I once watched someone in American Fork climb manage to get to the anchors on a 7 bolt 11b by clipping and falling/hanging on every single bolt! It wasn't pretty. The real kicker was when they lowered off, they proclaimed it really wasn't that hard and should probably be an 11a!
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cracklover
Oct 12, 2011, 6:39 PM
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olderic wrote: cracklover wrote: olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too. Is correct ^^^ BTW, regarding the term pinkpoint - while it's pretty much gone from sport climbing, on the rare occasions in which I or my partners lead a trad climb on pre-placed gear, we certainly do use the phrase pinkpoint. And the term "pink" is a wonderfully effective signifier for just what a truly macho style you used to get up the climb. G There was a significant accident and a major hub-bub on the GT ledge below Limelight when a trad pinkpoint attempt went bad. Everybody describing the accident used the term "pinkpoint" - so I would say that the concept and understanding of the definition is still pretty wide spread. It's dismissed in the sport world mainly because of the trickle down effect - the big boys (and girls) can't be bothered ( for semi legitimate reasons on cutting edge routes) and every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to emulate them. I'd heard about that accident, and heard that it was so bad because a green alien he fell on ripped. I had no idea the leader was climbing on pre-placed gear. What a big can of worms. I bet the person who placed the gear feels more than a little conflicted... GO
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 8:00 PM
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I'd call it an On-sight Flash of a PTFTW.
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 8:03 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Does Redpoint apply to bouldering or does it need to strictly be lead climbing like that definition says? I'd say Redpoint only applies to lead climbing and in bouldering it's called a Send. wo0!
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kevthegerman
Oct 12, 2011, 8:05 PM
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Who gives a fucking shit??????????????????
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 8:06 PM
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donald949 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the “after making previous unsuccessful attempts” criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt? . No. So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt? psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Josh That makes sense. However, it still isn’t clear if a Redpoint can be achieved on anything other than your first attempt. a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). What beta is, however, is open to debate. Josh Let not forget my favorite style. Hangdog. The first attempt, with falls. I think the new term for hangdog is "Honeybadgered teh shit out of it." But I could be making that up.
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 8:08 PM
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kevthegerman wrote: Who gives a fucking shit?????????????????? Erm, I'm guessing you don't? [lots 0 question marks here]
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kevthegerman
Oct 12, 2011, 8:14 PM
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no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless...
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kevthegerman
Oct 12, 2011, 8:15 PM
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btw, funny site.
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majid_sabet
Oct 12, 2011, 9:32 PM
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but with pre-placed protection are they talking about bolt or removable pros ?
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 11:46 PM
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kevthegerman wrote: btw, funny site. Thank you. Now git back OT before teh mods decide to shun you.
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climbingtrash
Oct 12, 2011, 11:47 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: but with pre-placed protection are they talking about bolt or removable pros ? Proly are about teh bolts talking. There are cons to teh removable pros.
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Bag11s
Oct 13, 2011, 12:54 AM
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Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I haven’t committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculer’s detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing.
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climbingtrash
Oct 13, 2011, 2:13 AM
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Bag11s wrote: Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I haven’t committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculer’s detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing. New wave trad like you're describing is a whole nother ball of wax. But trad is still trad and the climber having the most fun always Winz!
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jeepnphreak
Oct 13, 2011, 2:29 AM
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climbingtrash wrote: kevthegerman wrote: no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless... Heh, yore ascent log book on here is pretty full for someone who thinks it "useless"... I don't see any 11s or 12s listed there either...
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climbingtrash
Oct 13, 2011, 4:58 AM
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jeepnphreak wrote: climbingtrash wrote: kevthegerman wrote: no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless... Heh, yore ascent log book on here is pretty full for someone who thinks it "useless"... I don't see any 11s or 12s listed there either... Weird, isn't it.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 13, 2011, 12:11 PM
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Bag11s wrote: Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I haven’t committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculer’s detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing. PINKPOINTER!!! PINKPOINTER!! I CAUGHT A PINKPOINTER!!! Haha! If you are working a climb, I assume you eventually will go for a send placing your own gear. That's not really what i am talking about. I have known of people that will actually "lead" on someone else's gear and call it a day. What they are doing is not leading and is silly. Why don't they just toprope it. Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 13, 2011, 12:16 PM
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olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too. You may be historically correct. I wasn't climbing when these terms were thought up. You would know better than I. BUT...I was giving the definition of how they are used today, most,if not 100% of the time. I have never heard anyone refer to their first attempt as a redpoint. Crusty old guys like you don't even use those terms any ways. You just climb and shake your head at us young whipper snappers (In climber years...I'm not that young) who like to brag about our ascents using fancy language. Josh
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kevthegerman
Oct 13, 2011, 2:46 PM
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yeah, and a log that i rarely use... the last one was a climb i onsighted and bolted it ground up.. so i guess with ya'lls logic the last time i hit the rock was in march? right, i am very attentative to my log..
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hyhuu
Oct 13, 2011, 3:00 PM
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csproul wrote: marc801 wrote: ... Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"? They make perfect sense in the context of a comp. Of the few comps I have been to, before the finals, maximum points were awarded for a flash of a problem, and lower point values awarded for subsequent attempts (redpoint, although the term is not really used in bouldering). For finals, the comps were onsight format, meaning that competitors did not get to see the route until they were to climb it and were not allowed to watch other competitors attempt the route/problem. Finalist only got one shot at the finals route, so they either got the onsight or they didn't get the route at all. Finalist who did not complete the route were placed by how far they got on the route. So the term may not describe an event, but when the competitors are forced to attempt routes "onsight" then I think it is a fair way to describe the competition format. By virtue of competition, all competitors are working to get the route on first try regardless of the format (1 try vs multiple tries). I'm curious what the competitors can't see on a 15ft wall?
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climbingtrash
Oct 13, 2011, 3:07 PM
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kevthegerman wrote: yeah, and a log that i rarely use... the last one was a climb i onsighted and bolted it ground up.. so i guess with ya'lls logic the last time i hit the rock was in march? right, i am very attentative to my log.. Nice spray down. So you onsighted while bolting or you bolted first then onsighted?
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jt512
Oct 13, 2011, 5:19 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta). Josh Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too. You may be historically correct. I wasn't climbing when these terms were thought up. You would know better than I. BUT...I was giving the definition of how they are used today, most,if not 100% of the time. I have never heard anyone refer to their first attempt as a redpoint. Crusty old guys like you don't even use those terms any ways. You just climb and shake your head at us young whipper snappers (In climber years...I'm not that young) who like to brag about our ascents using fancy language. Josh The words "redpoint" and "flash" each have a broad meaning and a narrow meaning. In both cases the narrow meaning is the more common. For "redpoint," the broad meaning is any clean ascent, and the narrow meaning is a clean ascent, other than on the first try. Eric is essentially right that climbers normally give themselves maximum credit for their ascents, so it is rare to hear a climber refer to a specific on-sight as a redpoint. However, if someone were to ask me if there was any route I hadn't redpointed on a wall on which I'd sent every route, I'd likely answer "yes," even if some of the ascents were flashes. For "flash," the broad meaning is a clean ascent on the first try (as used in the previous sentence), and the narrow meaning is a clean ascent on the first try with beta. When used in the broad sense, a "flash" can be either an "onsight flash" or a "beta flash," though one hardly ever sees this usage anymore. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 13, 2011, 5:22 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 13, 2011, 6:47 PM
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Jay, nice explanation. BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Josh
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jt512
Oct 13, 2011, 6:54 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Jay, nice explanation. BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Josh I didn't one-star you! Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 13, 2011, 6:55 PM
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Jay, nice explanation. BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Josh I didn't one-star you! Jay Oh, I know. I didn't think it was you, I was just throwing it out there. Josh
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cracklover
Oct 13, 2011, 7:14 PM
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apple is a member of fruit is a member of food. Josh was trying to argue that apple is not food. I will see him tonight and will punish him for his illogic. I just have to think of a punishment appropriate to the crime. Any suggestions? GO
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shockabuku
Oct 13, 2011, 7:39 PM
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cracklover wrote: apple is a member of fruit is a member of food. Josh was trying to argue that apple is not food. I will see him tonight and will punish him for his illogic. I just have to think of a punishment appropriate to the crime. Any suggestions? GO Make him change his spray about his best onsight to an unspecified flash. I would then assume it was a "beta flash".
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 14, 2011, 3:47 PM
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cracklover wrote: apple is a member of fruit is a member of food. Josh was trying to argue that apple is not food. I will see him tonight and will punish him for his illogic. I just have to think of a punishment appropriate to the crime. Any suggestions? GO No. I was arguing that although an apple is food and can be prepared in a variety of different ways, 99.99% of the apple-eating community just picks it off the tree and eats it raw. As far as punishment, you missed your opportunity! Have a safe trip back. Josh
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cracklover
Oct 14, 2011, 6:32 PM
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In reply to: As far as punishment, you missed your opportunity! That's what you think. But didn't you wonder about why you got your beer an hour after the rest of us? And how by that time they were out of the beer you wanted? I had to pay the waitress pretty good to let me drink your beer, but at least now you've learned your lesson, right? ;)
In reply to: Have a safe trip back. Thanks! Maybe next time I'm in town we can get on some real rock. Cheers! GO
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