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USnavy


Oct 30, 2011, 10:42 PM
Post #26 of 36 (2616 views)
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Re: [Wavebolt] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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Wavebolt wrote:
Regarding the UIAA standards, in http://www.theuiaa.org/...3_rock_anch_2009.pdf section 2.2.3 states an axial load of 20kn. I took this to mean a minimum requirement, so a test result (albeit shear) of over 9100lbs led me to say 'over twice as strong as the UIAA requirement.'
But you are not comparing apples to apples. "Axial load" means tension, not shear. You are comparing the tension requirement of UIAA 123 to the shear loading strength of your bolt. You state on your website that your bolts test to 9100 lbs. in shear and 8000 lbs. in tension (in which the rock failed). The UIAA requirements are 4500 lbs. for tension and 5625 for shear. So your bolts would have to hold 11250 lbs in shear and 9000 in tension to hold truth that they are twice as strong as the UIAA requirement, which so far your website states they do not.

All I am getting at is that manufacturers and retailers need to be very careful when making claims about their products. Itís easy to say "our product is the best in the world" because that is subjective. But when you say something along the lines of "we sell 250% more product than our nearest competitor", itís easy to prove or disprove that statement with a little math and research. If the statement is false, it brings into question the qualifications and beliefs of the manufacturer or retailer. A customer may develop an opinion that the manufacturer or retailer is dishonest or incompetent.

Your products seem to be solid in design and offer a few features that your competitors cannot match. I dont question the quality or suitability of your product for rock climbing. However statements like "if Fixe is the self-professed industry standard, then they are the old standard" come across as boastful. Itís for that exact reason why you do not see manufacturers like Black Diamond and Metolius saying things like "our traditional lead climbing gear makes Gear4Rocks's cams look like tinker toys in comparison".

You make a solid product, I just think you need to be careful what claims you make and what kind of statements you make about your competitors, especially statements that are published on your website.

But that said, I am excited to see how your product fairs in our local tropical marine environment. On that note, do you have access to grade 2205 stainless steel stock to make these bolts out of, or is 316 the only option?


weekendbolter


Oct 31, 2011, 9:04 AM
Post #27 of 36 (2581 views)
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Registered: Oct 24, 2011
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Re: [USnavy] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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Thanks everyone for the informative and interesting discussion here. Mattm I will look forward to the review you mention.


rrclimber


Nov 4, 2011, 3:49 PM
Post #28 of 36 (2507 views)
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Re: [weekendbolter] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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I have been using the wave bolt for the past 3 months. It is much stronger than any other bolt out there. This bolt is the only bolt ever certified by ANSI. If you dont like to climb on glu-ins then dont come to the Red River Gorge in Kentucky because we are in the process of replacing all the bolts with the new glu-in wave bolts.


mattm


Nov 5, 2011, 7:00 AM
Post #29 of 36 (2461 views)
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Re: [rrclimber] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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rrclimber wrote:
I have been using the wave bolt for the past 3 months. It is much stronger than any other bolt out there.

Much stronger than any other NON GLUE IN? Bolt Products bolts test out nearly the same if not stronger. That's because they are almost the exact same thing. In reality, they're both MASSIVELY strong compared to other products in soft stone so claiming one is the "strongest" is a bit silly. That like saying my car goes 215 mph and yours only goes 200mph when you really only need to go 100 mph.


In reply to:
This bolt is the only bolt ever certified by ANSI.

Huh? You mean ANSI Z359? Best I can tell, that standard would mean it tested out to 5000lbs or 22.2kN so not really a huge deal, especially given the test numbers Wave Bolts can achieve. Can you explain further?

I'm not trying to bash the bolts, in fact I think they're awesome, however, as USNavy points out above, being conservative in what is claimed etc is important to a clear understanding of the product is and is capable of.

I think Wave Bolts, along with Bolt Product bolts, are BOTH the best and strongest bolts out there for bolting. Which one you choose is really a matter which small design differences you prefer. BOTH are more than adequate for their intended purpose.


USnavy


Feb 3, 2012, 5:35 AM
Post #30 of 36 (2245 views)
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Re: [] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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After placing a number of Wave Bolts I have found that its best to oversize the hole a bit if you are installing them in hard rock. For the 5/8" version I use a 11/16" bit and for the 1/2" version, a 5/8" bit. I found that with our dense basalt, I nearly have to destroy the bolt to get it in if I use the recommended hole size. It takes repeated hard blows with a hammer to get it in which creates a number of serious issues. After speaking with Hoosier Heights a number of times, it seems that using the 11/16" size bit is the best option for people that wish to install these bolts in dense rock.

However if you do oversize the hole, its best to use the smallest possible diameter bit that allows you to install the bolt (the sizes I recommended above). Its also critical you use a glue that has a very low shrinkage value (pure epoxy is the best bet in most cases).


mattm


Feb 3, 2012, 12:17 PM
Post #31 of 36 (2181 views)
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Re: [USnavy] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
After placing a number of Wave Bolts I have found that its best to oversize the hole a bit if you are installing them in hard rock. For the 5/8" version I use a 11/16" bit and for the 1/2" version, a 5/8" bit. I found that with our dense basalt, I nearly have to destroy the bolt to get it in if I use the recommended hole size. It takes repeated hard blows with a hammer to get it in which creates a number of serious issues. After speaking with Hoosier Heights a number of times, it seems that using the 11/16" size bit is the best option for people that wish to install these bolts in dense rock.

However if you do oversize the hole, its best to use the smallest possible diameter bit that allows you to install the bolt (the sizes I recommended above). Its also critical you use a glue that has a very low shrinkage value (pure epoxy is the best bet in most cases).

Sounds like you might be better off with the Titt bolts. No need to oversize the hole and much less glue waste filling in the air spaces. That and less concern about shrinkage of the glue.


bigredscowboy


Apr 20, 2012, 5:29 AM
Post #32 of 36 (2030 views)
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Re: [mattm] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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Mattm,
do you think a 5/8" (15.875mm) bit with some wobble would be enough to get the 8mm (16mm) JimT bolt in?


mattm


Apr 20, 2012, 6:55 AM
Post #33 of 36 (2010 views)
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Re: [bigredscowboy] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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bigredscowboy wrote:
Mattm,
do you think a 5/8" (15.875mm) bit with some wobble would be enough to get the 8mm (16mm) JimT bolt in?

Works no problem. I don't even think I wiggle mine. Maybe just a tiny bit but my local Limestone the few 8mm Titt bolts I placed went in without wiggle with a 5/8in bit. The bolts are MASSIVE and make you smile at how bomber they appear. Note that the 5/8in hole is BIG and eats batteries. Soft sandstone might not be a huge change but I hit some harder limestone here and needed extra bats much faster than 1/2in or 3/8in! Obviously you can't beat physics!

Another tip. For brushing out the large hole, I ended up going to my local Bass Pro (or Dicks or something) and buying a shotgun brass cleaning brush and handle for a few bucks. I think it was 16 gauge but it might have been 20. You can look up the OD of the gauges online. Works like a charm for giving that hole a good brushing (key).

good luck!


(This post was edited by mattm on Apr 20, 2012, 7:29 AM)


bigredscowboy


Apr 20, 2012, 7:04 AM
Post #34 of 36 (2002 views)
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Re: [mattm] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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thanks, that is very helpful


mattm


Apr 20, 2012, 7:25 AM
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Re: [bigredscowboy] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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Just so people can see what these look like I've added some pictures: (These are all hardware I've placed)


Wave Bolt in Limestone with A7 Glue


Titt Bolt (6mm) in Limestone with A7 Glue and SS QL camo'd with LATEX Spray paint. could've wiped the glue a bit better...


Full Titt Bolt Anchor with SS QLs on top to G43 Chain to PS QLs to Mussy Hooks.


(This post was edited by mattm on Apr 20, 2012, 7:36 AM)


mattm


Apr 20, 2012, 7:47 AM
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Re: [mattm] Wave Bolts? [In reply to]
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For reference, these are 2 pictures I've found of glue ins using the Hilti glues (RED). (They're not my gear) I assume Hilti does this RED to match their corporate color scheme and in an industrial setting they're not worried about visual impact. Obviously you need to make decisions about these things. Certain rock color would make hilt a great choice and easy to camp but others, not so much. Appropriate Hilti glue is great stuff but I've found much less expensive products that perform similarly and look better. YMMV





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