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DouglasHunter


Oct 26, 2011, 9:35 AM
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Getting Better Without Training
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Many climbers want to improve their performance level. 5.9 climbers desire the prestige of reaching double digits. Young sport climbers know that climbing 5.14 is the new status quo. Boulderers want to join the race for V12, V13, and beyond. Nonetheless, launching into a full training program with cycles and long term planning can be daunting and sounds like a lot of work, even to highly motivated climbers. Short of creating a full training program, what can climbers do to keep improving?

Improvement within a structured training program, or outside of one, comes from placing some kind of control (knowingly or not) on the following:

- Intensity: how hard you climb each day.
- Volume: how much climbing you do each day.
- Quality: The effectiveness of your movement, and how well developed your movement skills are.
- Diversity: How many different climbing activities do you do each day, and what terrain do you do them on.

Placing controls on one or more of the above variables will foster improvement. An important question is, how well do you know your own climbing? Do you know what your consistent on-sight, and redpoint levels are? Do you have a good grasp of what your intensity, and volume, are like from day to day? The following suggestion will help you know yourself better as a climber, and help foster better climbing habits.

1) Keep a Climbing Journal: You want to document how much climbing you are doing each day, how hard that climbing is and how well you are climbing. Write down what you do during each day for four weeks and then review your journal. By doing this you will know for sure how many routes or boulder problems you are doing in a typical day, and at what level your are typically working. The patterns in your climbing will become clear.

2) Increase Volume: Most climbers actually do very little climbing during any given day of outdoor or indoor climbing. So the first thing you can do is work on becoming more efficient with your time in order to get more climbing in each day. For instance, if you do fewer than 10 boulder problems in a gym session, then lower the difficulty of the problems you are doing, do less chatting, and try to do 15 – 20 problems in a session.

3) Control Intensity: Experience suggests that working at what is called a sub maximal level is often best for making improvements. Spend most of your time working at the sub maximal Level and very little time working at or near your current limit. For experienced climbers the sub maximal level is the level at which you can complete a route or boulder problem in 1 – 3 tries. If you are spending more than about 20% of your time working at or near your limit, you should be dropping the intensity and increasing the volume.



4) Increase Quality: How well you move, how well you have learned the fundamental sport-specific skills involved in climbing plays a significant role in how quickly you improve, and how far you can go. Moving well and understanding the basic skills involved in turning, flagging, wall contact, and balance among others is vital. Don’t spend a lot of time climbing at grades above which you can move with a high quality.


5) Increase Diversity: A well-known quote says, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results.” If you go to the crag and gym and don’t make a point of doing different things each day, then you are most likely always doing the same thing over and over again so you need to break out of old patterns and create new ones.
a) Do a variety of activities that ask different things of your body.
Maximum strength: Hard Bouldering.
Local Anaerobic Endurance: Laps on route, laps on long traverses, bouldering circuits.
Local Aerobic Endurance: Continuous climbing for 10- 30 minutes without getting pumped.
b) Don’t always climb on the same type of problems or routes. If you love steep climbing, be sure to add vertical and slab climbing to your daily mix. If you don’t like slopers, then get on them!
c) If you typically project routes or boulder problems, take several weeks to only do on-sights and flashes. If you typically on-sight then spend time projecting.

Nothing can compare to a well-designed long-term training program for making significant improvement, but by using these guidelines you can improve your daily climbing habits and should see results over the course of weeks to months.

(cross posted at selfcoachedclimber.com)


jbro_135


Oct 26, 2011, 10:02 AM
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Some good ideas here for sure. I think a lot of people get discouraged from following a training program because of the time and effort that goes into organizing, executing, and documenting strict routines for every time they climb. By understanding the principles behind training for climbing and incorporating them into your climbing sessions you can strike a balance between having fun climbing and doing what you need to do to get better.

Great post.


lena_chita
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Oct 26, 2011, 11:00 AM
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Thanks-- I needed to read this!

Even though I've read the SCC, and used the principles before, right now I am in a slump of not having enough time and not having enough motivation to train efficiently in the little time I do have at the gym.

I need to stop whimpering and whining, design a plan that fits into my new schedule, and start training again. it definitely made a difference before.


caughtinside


Oct 26, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Great post. Thanks!


DouglasHunter


Oct 26, 2011, 12:52 PM
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Thanks you guys. Jbro I think you hit the nail on the head that there is a large community of climbers out there interested in improvement but who want climbing to be fun, and don't know how to do the planning necessary. This is a group that I want to reach out to more. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions about doing that.

Thanks,
D


damienclimber


Oct 26, 2011, 1:35 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
Thanks you guys. Jbro I think you hit the nail on the head that there is a large community of climbers out there interested in improvement but who want climbing to be fun, and don't know how to do the planning necessary. This is a group that I want to reach out to more. Let me know if you guys have any suggestions about doing that.

Thanks,
D


Hope to see you at the Eye, halloween night at midnight! Jtree

We would appreciate if you dress as the devil with your blue dress on.

Thanks, we are looking forward to having you demonstrate your plan to Noobs .


(This post was edited by damienclimber on Oct 26, 2011, 1:37 PM)


boadman


Nov 4, 2011, 2:41 PM
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I'm in that group too, I've got a job, kids, etc. I can get to the gym once or twice a week for an hour or two, and generally only get outside once a week during the climbing season. The exercises in the SCC are too time consuming, and frankly boring, for me to actually execute. At the same time, I've definitely plateaued for the last few years, and would love to see some progress. I think a general plan for the once a week climber would be really helpful. One for boulderers, one for sport climbers, and one for trad climbers, perhaps. Maybe a final one for generalists like me that like to do it all.


ceebo


Nov 5, 2011, 8:07 AM
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boadman wrote:
I'm in that group too, I've got a job, kids, etc. I can get to the gym once or twice a week for an hour or two, and generally only get outside once a week during the climbing season. The exercises in the SCC are too time consuming, and frankly boring, for me to actually execute. At the same time, I've definitely plateaued for the last few years, and would love to see some progress. I think a general plan for the once a week climber would be really helpful. One for boulderers, one for sport climbers, and one for trad climbers, perhaps. Maybe a final one for generalists like me that like to do it all.

Technique and strength = good climber

Technique with little strength = avg climber

Little technique with strength = avg climber

Little technique and little strength = bad climber, for lack of better wording.

You may not have all the time in the world to goto the gym and train both, but what on earth stops you from making strength gains at home?. It simply can not make you worse. The obvius injury counter argument.. that risk comes with all forms of training.


damienclimber


Nov 5, 2011, 4:13 PM
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boadman wrote:
I'm in that group too, I've got a job, kids, etc. I can get to the gym once or twice a week for an hour or two, and generally only get outside once a week during the climbing season. The exercises in the SCC are too time consuming, and frankly boring, for me to actually execute. At the same time, I've definitely plateaued for the last few years, and would love to see some progress. I think a general plan for the once a week climber would be really helpful. One for boulderers, one for sport climbers, and one for trad climbers, perhaps. Maybe a final one for generalists like me that like to do it all.


I'm frankly disappointed that Doug showed a lack of professional behavior ,by not responding to an opportunity to demonstrate his plan in person.

Or offer an alternative to rockclimbing.com members *

Best save your money for gear, gym memberships,videos and magazines versus Doug's boring books.

* Unless there was some unfortunate event beyond his control


boadman


Nov 5, 2011, 8:26 PM
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Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.


guangzhou


Nov 5, 2011, 9:42 PM
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boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.


jt512


Nov 5, 2011, 10:11 PM
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boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym?

There isn't any.

In reply to:
That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

No. The SCC is realistic.

Jay


johnwesely


Nov 6, 2011, 4:57 AM
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boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

You can't improve without a gym or rock to train on. Anybody telling you otherwise is selling you something.


ceebo


Nov 6, 2011, 6:24 AM
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boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

It does not fall flat... becuase the truth is to get what you ask for needs more rock or plastic, their is no great alternitave but their are options none the less (that are better than just doing nothing). All i am suggesting is that you can focus your strength training at home leaving more time to focus ''mostly'' on technique etc with the very limited time you do get on the rock. That does not leave allot of room for performance climbing, but how much do you want to improve?. One performace day per month is a difficult game to play.. but with the short training time you have, you cannot really expect a full deal.

The other better option, build a home wall.


caughtinside


Nov 6, 2011, 7:43 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

You can't improve without a gym or rock to train on. Anybody telling you otherwise is selling you something.

I have friends who have made big strength gains through just hangboarding, who recommend the rockprodigy program.

If I'm back in a situation with little gym/rock time, I'd probably try to pick that up. Seems pretty boring, but if you want the gains...


johnwesely


Nov 6, 2011, 8:03 AM
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Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.[/quote]

You can't improve without a gym or rock to train on. Anybody telling you otherwise is selling you something.[/quote]

I have friends who have made big strength gains through just hangboarding, who recommend the rockprodigy program.

If I'm back in a situation with little gym/rock time, I'd probably try to pick that up. Seems pretty boring, but if you want the gains...[/quote]

I was sort of including hangboarding with that, but even then, it would be really hard to see gains with one day on the rock/plastic per week.


boadman


Nov 6, 2011, 12:24 PM
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Really? You know this for a fact? Because you read the SCC? Drank the koolaid much?

Have you gotten any better since following the SCC program?

I think it's ironic that so many people are jumping on the SCC bandwagon that don't climb hard enough to require any training at all.


jt512


Nov 6, 2011, 1:13 PM
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boadman wrote:
Really? You know this for a fact? Because you read the SCC? Drank the koolaid much?

Based on my understanding of the same science as the authors of the SCC—a science which seem to be completely ignorant.

In reply to:
I think it's ironic that so many people are jumping on the SCC bandwagon that don't climb hard enough to require any training at all.

A truly bizarre insult, since the levels of our climbing accomplishments are practically identical, according to the self-description in your profile.

Jay


boadman


Nov 6, 2011, 1:21 PM
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It wasn't meant to be insulting, but I agree. If you've been on the SCC program, why don't climb harder than me?


jt512


Nov 6, 2011, 2:22 PM
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boadman wrote:
It wasn't meant to be insulting, but I agree. If you've been on the SCC program, why don't climb harder than me?

I haven't been on "the SCC program," whatever that is.

As to our relative climbing levels, let us know how you're doing at age 53.

Jay


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 9:05 AM
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I climb much harder than you, and the only training program I've ever really looked at in my couple years of climbing is the SCC. Happy?


boadman


Nov 7, 2011, 9:20 AM
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I've red-pointed 13b sport, onsighted 12d sport, redpointed 12- trad lines, and done a few V9 boulder problems without any training at all. And I'm way fatter than you. If you adjust the grades by the chubber allotment (one letter grade for every 5 pounds one weighs more than Chris Sharma), I actually climb substantially harder than you. I think the SCC training advice is probably over-rated.


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 9:26 AM
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That got a chuckle for sure.

The SCC may be overrated, but then so is any other training book/program. It teaches good fundamentals and is backed by solid sports science, which is more than can be said about most other popular climbing training advice. Sure a lot of people climb hard and 'just climb' for training, but if you have limited time to devote to climbing and want to see maximum gains then the SCC is the way to go, and definitely can't hurt.


johnwesely


Nov 7, 2011, 9:27 AM
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boadman wrote:
I've red-pointed 13b sport, onsighted 12d sport, redpointed 12- trad lines, and done a few V9 boulder problems without any training at all. And I'm way fatter than you. If you adjust the grades by the chubber allotment (one letter grade for every 5 pounds one weighs more than Chris Sharma), I actually climb substantially harder than you. I think the SCC training advice is probably over-rated.

Wait, you climb that hard and actually think there is way you are going to get better climbing one day a week?


amergen2


Nov 7, 2011, 10:16 AM
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This post really hit home for me! I'm in law school and climbing is my #1 relaxation activity. This makes if hard to push myself to lead climbs at my level when I actually do get outside. I just want climbing to be fun all the time and trying to get my lead head back is not fun for me.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have any helpful suggestions. The only thing that has ever helped me get better at climbing was pushing myself to climb more and do harder climbs. So my new plan is to stop whining and do that. If you figure something out please let us know. Either way, I'm glad you are looking into this!

Thanks,
Annie


teo916


Nov 7, 2011, 10:17 AM
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In reply to:
I have friends who have made big strength gains through just hangboarding, who recommend the rockprodigy program.

Forgive my ignorance if this is something obvious, but what is the 'rockprodigy' program? Can't seem to find anything conclusive via google.

-Teo


boadman


Nov 7, 2011, 10:25 AM
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I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.


johnwesely


Nov 7, 2011, 10:37 AM
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boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

Campus boarding doesn't come to my mind when I think of home training.


Rudmin


Nov 7, 2011, 10:56 AM
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I was expecting the secret tip that a single mother on the internet discovered that will let you climb 5.12 without training.


shockabuku


Nov 7, 2011, 11:40 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
I was expecting the secret tip that a single mother on the internet discovered that will let you climb 5.12 without training.

No shit, this^ is very disappointing.Wink


DouglasHunter


Nov 7, 2011, 1:33 PM
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boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.


ceebo


Nov 7, 2011, 1:37 PM
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boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Nov 7, 2011, 1:44 PM)


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 5:29 PM
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ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 6:54 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 6:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 6:59 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 7:01 PM
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jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.

I can do 6 on my doorframe, does that mean I can someday, with lots of practice and "miledge," climb V12?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 7:52 PM
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jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.

I can do 6 on my doorframe, does that mean I can someday, with lots of practice and "miledge," climb V12?

Six doorframe pull-ups? Dude, that's like 5.10a strength.

Jay


damienclimber


Nov 8, 2011, 12:32 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

ALL YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IS SELLING BOOKS

getting better without training, hah, hah, hah- Peter Croft-
unless you are a naturally gifted climber!


boadman


Nov 8, 2011, 1:49 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?


teo916


Nov 8, 2011, 2:06 PM
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boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


damienclimber


Nov 8, 2011, 3:53 PM
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teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?


teo916


Nov 8, 2011, 4:46 PM
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damienclimber wrote:
teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?

That's ALMOST funny, but then again, no.

Peter Croft wrote some pretty good books too, are you going to bash him if you can't get what you want out of them too?

I guess I'm not seeing (perhaps because you aren't explaining yourself very clearly) what your gripe is with the SCC, the author, or the subject of the OP. Is it just that the guy is sort of promoting his book/blog here? Wouldn't you if you wrote one?

Personally, I'm currently more interested in learning how others have spent 'off time' training, and think its a worthwhile discussion. This is because I'm stuck in the 'off time' world for a while, and frankly don't want to feel like I'm starting all over again when I get back to the vertical world in a few weeks (hopefully).

I'm also interested in learning how others set up their regular training plans when they can make it out to climb more frequently, (including diet plans, supplemental training, and skill improvement) and how I can better make the most of that time (which is what the subject of the OP was about). This is because I have a busy job, am a single father, and have about a hundred other hobbies I enjoy, so my time in the gym, at the crag, or exploring new climbing areas is limited.

This is really why I joined this site in the first place: to gather ideas and tips on how to improve my climbing, and the idea of doing so efficiently appeals to me.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure why you would doubt that the original thoughts of the post, or the ideas that can be found in the SCC (or other books on improving your climbing) wouldn't be of SOME value. Furthermore why would those of us who see this value would have to be 'hypnotized' to think so?

-Teo


DouglasHunter


Nov 9, 2011, 1:19 PM
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boadman wrote:

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

Your question is a common one and I think its one reason why so many supplemental training activities are viewed as primary training in the world of climbing: many of us don't have access to good sport-specific training resources. So there are two things. Your actual climbing time needs to be very efficient, since you have so little of it you need to do the maximum amount of climbing that you can in that time, and do it at an intensity level that is meaningful to your current climbing level. It also means that you will probably want to focus on anaerobic endurance and stamina training. local aerobic endurance for climbing won't improve with so little time, the workout frequency needs to be greater than that.

Your non-climbing time should be spent doing hang board or system wall work for conditioning the forearm flexors. You should be doing activities that work on general conditioning and active range of motion for the hip joints and shoulders. You should also do conditioning for extension, and lateral flexion of the spine, as well as stability of the hip joint. I have a few activities that do these things but don't have time to post them now. When I have a chance I'll put them up on the blog.

I would not expect to make any gains in such a situation, but I would hope that it would make your climbing time more enjoyable and perhaps allow you to do more climbing in a day at the crag than you would otherwise.


ceebo


Nov 9, 2011, 2:23 PM
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Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet. Also, the withdrawl from doing something you love surely gives a massive boost in motivation when you get back to it.


sungam


Nov 9, 2011, 3:04 PM
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teo916 wrote:
you aren't explaining yourself very clearly
There is a reason no-one else has replied to damienclimber/enigma/psychoracist.


jt512


Nov 9, 2011, 3:22 PM
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ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay


damienclimber


Nov 9, 2011, 4:25 PM
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teo916 wrote:
damienclimber wrote:
teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?

That's ALMOST funny, but then again, no.

Peter Croft wrote some pretty good books too, are you going to bash him if you can't get what you want out of them too?

I guess I'm not seeing (perhaps because you aren't explaining yourself very clearly) what your gripe is with the SCC, the author, or the subject of the OP. Is it just that the guy is sort of promoting his book/blog here? Wouldn't you if you wrote one?

Personally, I'm currently more interested in learning how others have spent 'off time' training, and think its a worthwhile discussion. This is because I'm stuck in the 'off time' world for a while, and frankly don't want to feel like I'm starting all over again when I get back to the vertical world in a few weeks (hopefully).

I'm also interested in learning how others set up their regular training plans when they can make it out to climb more frequently, (including diet plans, supplemental training, and skill improvement) and how I can better make the most of that time (which is what the subject of the OP was about). This is because I have a busy job, am a single father, and have about a hundred other hobbies I enjoy, so my time in the gym, at the crag, or exploring new climbing areas is limited.

This is really why I joined this site in the first place: to gather ideas and tips on how to improve my climbing, and the idea of doing so efficiently appeals to me.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure why you would doubt that the original thoughts of the post, or the ideas that can be found in the SCC (or other books on improving your climbing) wouldn't be of SOME value. Furthermore why would those of us who see this value would have to be 'hypnotized' to think so?

-Teo

I've climbed with Peter Croft, he's quite sincere and has a great personality. Nothing like Douglas!

Why not let Doug sell his books through advertisements?
Or at least demonstrate this miracle of getting better without training?


HE IS JUST INTERESTED IN SELLING BOOKS Angelic


ceebo


Nov 9, 2011, 4:32 PM
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.


tH1e-swiN1e


Nov 9, 2011, 4:42 PM
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F**k training. Just climb.


Rufsen


Nov 10, 2011, 12:42 AM
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ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.


sungam


Nov 10, 2011, 1:53 AM
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Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.


(This post was edited by sungam on Nov 10, 2011, 7:26 AM)


ceebo


Nov 10, 2011, 6:39 AM
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sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did not that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.

Im glad somebody payed attention to jays selective bolding. The world is not so bad after all.

Still not sure why people think doing nothing is the same as using a hang board etc. They lazy much?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Nov 10, 2011, 6:41 AM)


tH1e-swiN1e


Nov 10, 2011, 1:12 PM
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sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.


redlude97


Nov 10, 2011, 1:19 PM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
You have not read the SCC and do not understand real training.


sungam


Nov 11, 2011, 7:36 AM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
Well, if you enjoy just doing routes in the gym, that's fine. I don't really get kicks from doing routes in the gym, so while I am there I train. I get about the same enjoyment from just doing routes indoors as I do from doing planned training indoors. I don't consider it "going climbing".


SylviaSmile


Nov 11, 2011, 10:06 AM
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Can't it be both, though? I mean, it's training BY climbing, right? So not rock climbing properly speaking, but a lot of the same movements, which you would take full joy in outside, you can still relish indoors. I guess this is just my perspective as somebody who's considering getting a climbing gym membership after strenuously AVOIDING any other kind of gym membership or regimented workout routine. I just like to go and play at the climbing gym, and I know it will translate into more fun outdoors, when I'm able to send harder.


redlude97


Nov 11, 2011, 10:15 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
Can't it be both, though? I mean, it's training BY climbing, right? So not rock climbing properly speaking, but a lot of the same movements, which you would take full joy in outside, you can still relish indoors. I guess this is just my perspective as somebody who's considering getting a climbing gym membership after strenuously AVOIDING any other kind of gym membership or regimented workout routine. I just like to go and play at the climbing gym, and I know it will translate into more fun outdoors, when I'm able to send harder.
Playing at the gym is a waste of money if your goal is to be able to send harder outside. Gym climbing is great, but a training program applied to indoor climbing will show much more significant gains for when it actually counts.


SylviaSmile


Nov 11, 2011, 10:21 AM
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Maybe so, though maybe it depends the level at which you're climbing. I'm pretty new at it, so I know any gym climbing > no climbing. I suppose it also depends how serious and goal-oriented you are about it, as Annie (I think) pointed out above. I'm just grateful I can do it at all! I know some friends with physical impairments, etc., or just way below a fitness level that would allow it . . . so yeah, I'm basically about having fun with it, and not putting pressure on myself. And is it really a waste of money if I like what I'm doing? : )


redlude97


Nov 11, 2011, 10:34 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
Maybe so, though maybe it depends the level at which you're climbing. I'm pretty new at it, so I know any gym climbing > no climbing. I suppose it also depends how serious and goal-oriented you are about it, as Annie (I think) pointed out above. I'm just grateful I can do it at all! I know some friends with physical impairments, etc., or just way below a fitness level that would allow it . . . so yeah, I'm basically about having fun with it, and not putting pressure on myself. And is it really a waste of money if I like what I'm doing? : )
Like I said, it is a waste of money if your goal is to send harder outside. If you are going to drop a bunch of cash every month(as I do), I better get my money's worth, and that means using the climbing gym as a training tool for climbing outside. Unfocused "fun" climbing is great if that is your end goal, but climbing slightly better outside(or worse) is a side effect. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't know about you, but training hard can also be fun and rewarding, and there is no greater "fun" than crushing outside. It makes the months of work in the winter worth it when spring rolls around, regardless of the level that you start at.


shockabuku


Nov 11, 2011, 10:48 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
Maybe so, though maybe it depends the level at which you're climbing. I'm pretty new at it, so I know any gym climbing > no climbing. I suppose it also depends how serious and goal-oriented you are about it, as Annie (I think) pointed out above. I'm just grateful I can do it at all! I know some friends with physical impairments, etc., or just way below a fitness level that would allow it . . . so yeah, I'm basically about having fun with it, and not putting pressure on myself. And is it really a waste of money if I like what I'm doing? : )

Go to the climbing gym, have fun, challenge yourself, socialize a little, watch how other people climb the things you're trying to do. You'll get out of it what you want. If you're a beginner, you'll undoubtedly get at least a little better.


tH1e-swiN1e


Nov 11, 2011, 2:24 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
You have not read the SCC and do not understand real training.

Ive had several different trainers and been on several teams and never once have we done anything but climb routes and work problems. I personally climb with several pros who do the same thing. Those 14 crushers must not understand training either.


redlude97


Nov 11, 2011, 2:47 PM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
You have not read the SCC and do not understand real training.

Ive had several different trainers and been on several teams and never once have we done anything but climb routes and work problems. I personally climb with several pros who do the same thing. Those 14 crushers must not understand training either.
You can train and never touch a hangboard or campus board. I train and all I do is climb routes and boulder. That is what you don't seem to understand. I bet a lot of your friends are training as well, whether they call it that or not. Do you really think that a guy who comes into a gym and warms up on a few V1-2's and then spends the next 2 hours working a single v6 is the same as the guy who does a pyramid of 8 V1's, 6 V2's, 4 V3's, 2 V4's, and 1-2 V5/6's followed by 30 minutes of traversing? One of those climbers is training, and one is simply pulling on plastic.


damienclimber


Nov 18, 2011, 4:10 PM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
You have not read the SCC and do not understand real training.

Ive had several different trainers and been on several teams and never once have we done anything but climb routes and work problems. I personally climb with several pros who do the same thing. Those 14 crushers must not understand training either.

It would be a nice if the books were donated to climbers to start their fires at campsites! Pirate


shockabuku


Nov 19, 2011, 12:04 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
sungam wrote:
Rufsen wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.

Not regardless of diet and exercise. But yes, glycogen stores can be brought back to normal levels in 24 hours.
He did note that it was in the case of a bad diet.


tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
F**k training. Just climb.
Meh, while the most enjoyable thing to do would be to just go climbing all the time, that's really not a realistic situation for everybody.

I finish class at 5 every day. It is already dark. There is no way I can go climbing, even if it wasn't raining (almost always is). I can't take the whole weekend off, either, I have simulations I gotta write code for.

So instead of climbing once a week and only being able to do okay-ish routes, I train 3 times a week so that I can make the most out of that one day (or sometimes if I am ahead with my code, 2 days) a week that I can actually get out.

So no, don't F**k training.


Edit: to fix spelling.

I have a full time job and dont get off til 5 myself. I boulder/lead 3-4 times a week. Climbing indoors isnt trianing, its just climbing on plastic. Real training (campus board pyramids, hang board workouts etc) is training.............

So yes f**k training, just climb.
You have not read the SCC and do not understand real training.

Ive had several different trainers and been on several teams and never once have we done anything but climb routes and work problems. I personally climb with several pros who do the same thing. Those 14 crushers must not understand training either.
You can train and never touch a hangboard or campus board. I train and all I do is climb routes and boulder. That is what you don't seem to understand. I bet a lot of your friends are training as well, whether they call it that or not. Do you really think that a guy who comes into a gym and warms up on a few V1-2's and then spends the next 2 hours working a single v6 is the same as the guy who does a pyramid of 8 V1's, 6 V2's, 4 V3's, 2 V4's, and 1-2 V5/6's followed by 30 minutes of traversing? One of those climbers is training, and one is simply pulling on plastic.

I'm anti-training. My wife just made cookies.


flesh


Nov 22, 2011, 9:39 AM
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There's nothing wrong with selling books that help people get more out of what they love. Since when did profit become such an evil in so many peoples eyes?

All of Doug's strategies have been proven to work. Go to youtube and search Aaron Shamy climbing, this is one of his original students. He was training young guns at my climbing gym when I first started climbing, I can think of at least 3 or 4 he trained that we're climbing 5.13d/14a at a young age after only a few years climbing in most cases.

He has excellent technique and great movement, I saw him at his peak. He's a great teacher and much more thoughtful than most climbers about all the little details.

I've always held him in high esteem and haven't doubted him. I'm not sure why he decided to call one of my established v12's a v8, it would have been nice if he had apologized in some way.

For those of you debating the best way to train with little time, I believe the best way is by building a small wall, only 4 feet wide, overhanging, 8 feet tall is enough. Put campus rungs on it and system board training holds and small footholds. You can train all of the climbing muscles this way head to toe.

Campus rungs for pure power. You can use various symtem holds to train different grips and use the small foot holds and switch up foot positions to train the different muscles groups. You can up/down climb for endurance.


damienclimber


Nov 22, 2011, 6:27 PM
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flesh wrote:
There's nothing wrong with selling books that help people get more out of what they love. Since when did profit become such an evil in so many peoples eyes?

All of Doug's strategies have been proven to work. Go to youtube and search Aaron Shamy climbing, this is one of his original students. He was training young guns at my climbing gym when I first started climbing, I can think of at least 3 or 4 he trained that we're climbing 5.13d/14a at a young age after only a few years climbing in most cases.

He has excellent technique and great movement, I saw him at his peak. He's a great teacher and much more thoughtful than most climbers about all the little details.

I've always held him in high esteem and haven't doubted him. I'm not sure why he decided to call one of my established v12's a v8, it would have been nice if he had apologized in some way.

For those of you debating the best way to train with little time, I believe the best way is by building a small wall, only 4 feet wide, overhanging, 8 feet tall is enough. Put campus rungs on it and system board training holds and small footholds. You can train all of the climbing muscles this way head to toe.

Campus rungs for pure power. You can use various symtem holds to train different grips and use the small foot holds and switch up foot positions to train the different muscles groups. You can up/down climb for endurance.

The problem is you can't just get better at climbing just by reading his books.

Most great climbers and athletes combine training and natural genetics.


billcoe_


Nov 23, 2011, 1:27 PM
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teo wrote:
Forgive my ignorance if this is something obvious, but what is the 'rockprodigy' program? Can't seem to find anything conclusive via google.

-Teo
Currently saved as an article here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ockprodigy__258.html
This is highly worth reading and on topic. I'd like to also thank Douglashunter (and several of the strong posters on this thread as well) for his contributions here and to the general knowledge climbers have on the subject.


Teo, check out rockprodigys article in the link. Well worthwhile. And remember, the #1 rule of training is to NOT GET INJURED!!!!! Everything else follows that rule.

The Self-Coached Climber book is available here: http://www.amazon.com/...322083584&sr=8-1


DouglasHunter


Nov 30, 2011, 9:11 AM
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flesh wrote:
T I'm not sure why he decided to call one of my established v12's a v8, it would have been nice if he had apologized in some way.

Flesh, Hey I just saw this. My calling that BP V8 was an honest mistake on my part, later in the thread I was corrected by someone who explained that the problem in question was not the one I thought it was. Sorry about that, it was totally my bad.


elcapinyoazz


Nov 30, 2011, 3:52 PM
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This whole premise, "getting better without training" is a rhetorical/semantics game. You redefine "training" to mean whatever you want it to mean so that your method doesn't fit within the definiton, and voila...you are training but not "training".

Whether it is all on paper and structured to the last repetition, or fun-based non-structured, simply putting in time IS practice which IS a form of training.
The OP's Title could be better constructed to represent what he actually advocates...which is training without a lot of structure and planning.


flesh


Nov 30, 2011, 4:12 PM
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I noticed in this thread some of you we're discussing carbo loading etc. I don't claim to know anything about this stuff.

In a recent climbing mag, can't remember which, a nutritionist of sorts was praising this stuff http://pacifichealthlabs.com/

I thought, why not? FYI, I don't know any of these people.

I bought the gel and the during and after drink mixes. I've used it religiously for 2 months now. Compared to whatever I was doing in the past I can say it definately has made a difference.

The main difference I've noticed is that I can climb closer to my limit every other day and that I don't have to take as much time off due to feeling run down. I just try stuff and see if it's a noticeable inprovement and this stuff is for sure.

Normally I climb every other day and ever couple weeks I have to take two days off because I'm run down. Every four months I take off 2 weeks fyi, just to heal tendons. Now, I never feel like I need the two days rests and can climb harder longer.


redlude97


Nov 30, 2011, 4:27 PM
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flesh wrote:
I noticed in this thread some of you we're discussing carbo loading etc. I don't claim to know anything about this stuff.

In a recent climbing mag, can't remember which, a nutritionist of sorts was praising this stuff http://pacifichealthlabs.com/

I thought, why not? FYI, I don't know any of these people.

I bought the gel and the during and after drink mixes. I've used it religiously for 2 months now. Compared to whatever I was doing in the past I can say it definately has made a difference.

The main difference I've noticed is that I can climb closer to my limit every other day and that I don't have to take as much time off due to feeling run down. I just try stuff and see if it's a noticeable inprovement and this stuff is for sure.

Normally I climb every other day and ever couple weeks I have to take two days off because I'm run down. Every four months I take off 2 weeks fyi, just to heal tendons. Now, I never feel like I need the two days rests and can climb harder longer.
Accelerade has been pretty popular in the cycling community for some time, nothing really that special about it. It is basically gatorade with protein. Some people can't stomach the protein while cycling, but for those that can it can help with energy store replenishment.


flesh


Nov 30, 2011, 4:30 PM
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Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.


redlude97


Nov 30, 2011, 5:23 PM
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flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein. I would rather see sucrose or HFCS, as it has been shown that a combination of sugars is more effective in glycogen replenishment. However, for climbing I don't think these are needed at all. Just eat something sensible before climbing and during, and snack on various healthy items and you will get all the same results.


sungam


Dec 1, 2011, 1:19 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein.
Actually a glance at their website tells me that they unfortunately use sucrose instead of glucose/dextrose. Too bad, really.


redlude97


Dec 1, 2011, 9:30 AM
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sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein.
Actually a glance at their website tells me that they unfortunately use sucrose instead of glucose/dextrose. Too bad, really.
You are right the accelerade uses sucrose(table sugar). The Endurox uses dextrose and/or sucrose and maltodextrin depending on the flavor. Wasn't careful checking the ingredients. Why do you consider the use of sucrose a bad thing?


sungam


Dec 1, 2011, 10:48 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein.
Actually a glance at their website tells me that they unfortunately use sucrose instead of glucose/dextrose. Too bad, really.
You are right the accelerade uses sucrose(table sugar). The Endurox uses dextrose and/or sucrose and maltodextrin depending on the flavor. Wasn't careful checking the ingredients. Why do you consider the use of sucrose a bad thing?
Firslty if I am drinking a sports drink during sport I want an obscenely high GI - I am exercising at that point and I want the glucose in my bloodstream as soon as possible.

Secondly sucrose is half fructose, and your body can't deal with fructose nearly as well as it deals with glucose. Our diets just didn't contain that much fructose compared to glucose, so our bodies are dialed in to work primarily on glucose.


redlude97


Dec 1, 2011, 11:10 AM
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sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein.
Actually a glance at their website tells me that they unfortunately use sucrose instead of glucose/dextrose. Too bad, really.
You are right the accelerade uses sucrose(table sugar). The Endurox uses dextrose and/or sucrose and maltodextrin depending on the flavor. Wasn't careful checking the ingredients. Why do you consider the use of sucrose a bad thing?
Firslty if I am drinking a sports drink during sport I want an obscenely high GI - I am exercising at that point and I want the glucose in my bloodstream as soon as possible.

Secondly sucrose is half fructose, and your body can't deal with fructose nearly as well as it deals with glucose. Our diets just didn't contain that much fructose compared to glucose, so our bodies are dialed in to work primarily on glucose.
The problem is that your body can only process so much glucose(or any simple sugar) at one time, and that research has proven that multiple simple sugar sources are better at restoring or maintaining glycogen levels. This article http://jap.physiology.org/...t/96/4/1277.abstract and many others provide very convincing evidence that multiple sugar sources are optimal. It is widely accepted in the cycling community. let me know if you don't have access and I can email the pdf


sungam


Dec 1, 2011, 11:20 AM
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redlude97 wrote:
sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
sungam wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
flesh wrote:
Ya, I think there are two different types, one is more endurance oriented and one more anaerobic like climbing.
All their products are just dextrose(glucose) and whey protein.
Actually a glance at their website tells me that they unfortunately use sucrose instead of glucose/dextrose. Too bad, really.
You are right the accelerade uses sucrose(table sugar). The Endurox uses dextrose and/or sucrose and maltodextrin depending on the flavor. Wasn't careful checking the ingredients. Why do you consider the use of sucrose a bad thing?
Firslty if I am drinking a sports drink during sport I want an obscenely high GI - I am exercising at that point and I want the glucose in my bloodstream as soon as possible.

Secondly sucrose is half fructose, and your body can't deal with fructose nearly as well as it deals with glucose. Our diets just didn't contain that much fructose compared to glucose, so our bodies are dialed in to work primarily on glucose.
The problem is that your body can only process so much glucose(or any simple sugar) at one time, and that research has proven that multiple simple sugar sources are better at restoring or maintaining glycogen levels. This article http://jap.physiology.org/...t/96/4/1277.abstract and many others provide very convincing evidence that multiple sugar sources are optimal. It is widely accepted in the cycling community. let me know if you don't have access and I can email the pdf
Cool. Well, my post definitely looks like hippy science 101, and while I can definitely believe that multiple sources are optimal, I'll read into it more before deciding sucrose is the ideal source (I am curious as to whether 50/50 is the ideal ratio). Thanks for the link, though Wink


flesh


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I'm looking at the ingredients on the back of the during drink mix, it has , sucrose, whey, trehalose TM(maybe a proprietary type of "ose"?), fructose, maltodextrin, in that order, and some other stuff.

On the back of the recovery drink mix it has, Dextrose, Whey, maltodextrin, magnesium carbonate, vitamin e, ascorbic acid, l glutamine.

Apparently, the during drink has a few different types of sugars, yes?

BTW, stuff doesn't taste bad at all, pretty good, about gatorade good.


teo916


Dec 1, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Thanks for the link billcoe. Can't agree more about not getting injured being the #1 rule. It was pushing my training too hard that got me basically benched for a while.

As for the SCC, I read it while I was benched these past few weeks. I had in fact ordered it just before this thread started. I DO think it helped me improve just by reading it. I've had more than one person I climb with mention they see my style has improved since I've been back at it. That's not saying I'm climbing harder grades than before, but I can see that coming as a result of this after I get my strength back.

Cheers,

-TEO


redlude97


Dec 1, 2011, 1:07 PM
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flesh wrote:
I'm looking at the ingredients on the back of the during drink mix, it has , sucrose, whey, trehalose TM(maybe a proprietary type of "ose"?), fructose, maltodextrin, in that order, and some other stuff.

On the back of the recovery drink mix it has, Dextrose, Whey, maltodextrin, magnesium carbonate, vitamin e, ascorbic acid, l glutamine.

Apparently, the during drink has a few different types of sugars, yes?

BTW, stuff doesn't taste bad at all, pretty good, about gatorade good.
Yes, but you don't really know the ratios. Either way it is overkill for climbing, except possibly in the case that you are mixing it with your water on a multipitch


elcapinyoazz


Dec 2, 2011, 8:11 AM
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teo916 wrote:
I've had more than one person I climb with mention they see my style has improved


Yeah, I think they were more commenting on your man-pris, trucker hat, and magenta stripe w/ rattail haircut, not you abyssmal movement on rock that you try to pass off as climbing.


DouglasHunter


Dec 2, 2011, 9:22 AM
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elcapinyoazz wrote:
This whole premise, "getting better without training" is a rhetorical/semantics game. You redefine "training" to mean whatever you want it to mean so that your method doesn't fit within the definiton, and voila...you are training but not "training".

not at all, training has a specific definition and requires goal setting and scheduling among other things. No structure = no training. Its true that every time we climb we are practicing in one form or another but unstructured practice can not be considered training.


teo916


Dec 2, 2011, 9:55 AM
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Maybe you have me confused with someone else? I'm the horrible climber with the trucker hat and the monkey tail beard:


Attachments: monkeytail.jpg (29.1 KB)


elcapinyoazz


Dec 2, 2011, 12:57 PM
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DouglasHunter wrote:
not at all, training has a specific definition and requires goal setting and scheduling among other things. No structure = no training.

Wrong. You saying it, doesn't make it so.

Websters:

"3 a : to form by instruction, discipline, or drill
b : to teach so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient
4: to make prepared (as by exercise)

Now why don't you go ahead and show me where that says anything about goal setting, scheduling or structure. Don't like Websters? Let's try another, how about Oxfords:

"develop and improve (a mental or physical faculty) through instruction or practice"

Well shit, you're still wrong. Maybe try Cambridge?

"to prepare or be prepared for a job, activity or sport, by learning skills and/or by mental or physical exercise"

Still wrong. Perhaps MacMillan?
"to practise a sport regularly before a match or competition"

Your failure to comprehend the very essence of the subject you seek to posture as an expert on is revealing.


(This post was edited by elcapinyoazz on Dec 2, 2011, 1:00 PM)


shockabuku


Dec 2, 2011, 1:35 PM
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Re: [elcapinyoazz] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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elcapinyoazz wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
not at all, training has a specific definition and requires goal setting and scheduling among other things. No structure = no training.

Wrong. You saying it, doesn't make it so.

Websters:

"3 a : to form by instruction, discipline, or drill
b : to teach so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient
4: to make prepared (as by exercise)

Now why don't you go ahead and show me where that says anything about goal setting, scheduling or structure. Don't like Websters? Let's try another, how about Oxfords:

"develop and improve (a mental or physical faculty) through instruction or practice"

Well shit, you're still wrong. Maybe try Cambridge?

"to prepare or be prepared for a job, activity or sport, by learning skills and/or by mental or physical exercise"

Still wrong. Perhaps MacMillan?
"to practise a sport regularly before a match or competition"

Your failure to comprehend the very essence of the subject you seek to posture as an expert on is revealing.

Seems like a lot of those words imply standards/goals and some kind of schedule to me.


sungam


Dec 2, 2011, 1:42 PM
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Re: [elcapinyoazz] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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Wow did I just almost-facepalm. That's when I was about to facepalm but then laughed at you instead.


elcapinyoazz


Dec 2, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Re: [sungam] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Wow did I just almost-facepalm. That's when I was about to facepalm but then laughed at you instead.

You have 24000+ posts on rc.n00b, and climb what...5.9? Keep laughing haggis boy.

Maybe set up a schedule for the laughing and you could call it training.

What you knobs can't seem to comprehend is that practice IS training. Bouldering with your friends in the gym without a structure, formal goals, or schedule is STILL practice which is still training.

Homeboy is jabbering about "well your definitions seem to imply that.." Uh, FAIL. Definitions do not need to imply, they are specifically EXPLICIT, not IMPLICIT. Read the definitions, they indicate practice and/or preparation, not scheduling and specific goals.

If you weaklings had some basic understanding of the topic you'd actually BE training instead of wanking about to the result of 25k posts on a site full of wankers, n00bs, and never was beens and hanging your way up routes I routinely solo.


But please, carry on...without me. Now that I recall why I rarely visit this clown show fail parade, I'll mosey on back to my regular haunts.


jt512


Dec 2, 2011, 2:01 PM
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Re: [elcapinyoazz] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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elcapinyoazz wrote:
sungam wrote:
Wow did I just almost-facepalm. That's when I was about to facepalm but then laughed at you instead.

You have 24000+ posts on rc.n00b, and climb what...5.9? Keep laughing haggis boy.

Maybe set up a schedule for the laughing and you could call it training.

What you knobs can't seem to comprehend is that practice IS training. Bouldering with your friends in the gym without a structure, formal goals, or schedule is STILL practice which is still training.

Homeboy is jabbering about "well your definitions seem to imply that.." Uh, FAIL. Definitions do not need to imply, they are specifically EXPLICIT, not IMPLICIT. Read the definitions, they indicate practice and/or preparation, not scheduling and specific goals.

If you weaklings had some basic understanding of the topic you'd actually BE training instead of wanking about to the result of 25k posts on a site full of wankers, n00bs, and never was beens and hanging your way up routes I routinely solo.


But please, carry on...without me. Now that I recall why I rarely visit this clown show fail parade, I'll mosey on back to my regular haunts.

Let me guess: boldering.com.


csproul


Dec 2, 2011, 2:33 PM
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Re: [elcapinyoazz] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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elcapinyoazz wrote:
sungam wrote:
Wow did I just almost-facepalm. That's when I was about to facepalm but then laughed at you instead.

You have 24000+ posts on rc.n00b, and climb what...5.9? Keep laughing haggis boy.

Maybe set up a schedule for the laughing and you could call it training.

What you knobs can't seem to comprehend is that practice IS training. Bouldering with your friends in the gym without a structure, formal goals, or schedule is STILL practice which is still training.

Homeboy is jabbering about "well your definitions seem to imply that.." Uh, FAIL. Definitions do not need to imply, they are specifically EXPLICIT, not IMPLICIT. Read the definitions, they indicate practice and/or preparation, not scheduling and specific goals.

If you weaklings had some basic understanding of the topic you'd actually BE training instead of wanking about to the result of 25k posts on a site full of wankers, n00bs, and never was beens and hanging your way up routes I routinely solo.


But please, carry on...without me. Now that I recall why I rarely visit this clown show fail parade, I'll mosey on back to my regular haunts.
Bullshit. Practicing is NOT training, bullshit dictionary definition or not. I am not a high level climber, but I can give a very concrete example from another sport. I spent years as a competitive cyclist. I raced for years with my "training" consisting of just going for rides, either solo, in small groups, or in large group rides. It got me a ways in the sport, but only so far. In order to really make a leap, I had to really train, and that meant not "just riding with friends". It meant planning, setting goals, making schedules, and following a pre-prescribed training plan. It involved measuring gains by specific, pre-determined metrics. I don't see that climbing is any different. The point of the OP is that there are those that don't want this level of commitment, and yet there are things they can incorporate while "just climbing with friends" that will allow some gains.


sungam


Dec 3, 2011, 2:12 AM
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Re: [elcapinyoazz] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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Haha, yeah. Firstly I will throw down 50 bucks that says you wouldn't solo any of the routes I've had to hang on this year. If you can then you deserve the 50 bucks.

Secondly, dictionaries are almost always wrong when it comes to technical definitions. Look up any word that has a definite meaning in some technical field and you will quickly find that out. The dictionary is a resource for finding the way words are used day-to-day in normal conversation, that does not mean the correct technical definition is given.

I walk to school - am I training for alpinism?

It's pretty clear that this whole thread is about getting better without planned training. If you actually have a complaint with the contents of the thread you are either ridiculously pedantic and set in your definition of training, or you are just too stupid (or just haven't given it the though) to see what is so blatantly being talked about.


damienclimber


Dec 22, 2011, 2:59 PM
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Re: [DouglasHunter] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
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DouglasHunter wrote:
elcapinyoazz wrote:
This whole premise, "getting better without training" is a rhetorical/semantics game. You redefine "training" to mean whatever you want it to mean so that your method doesn't fit within the definiton, and voila...you are training but not "training".

not at all, training has a specific definition and requires goal setting and scheduling among other things. No structure = no training. Its true that every time we climb we are practicing in one form or another but unstructured practice can not be considered training.

Hey, I think Rockclimbing.com has an advertising department to sell your products.

Besides its against the rules to sell anything in the forums.
Even those window coverings by HunterDouglas which can keep people in the dark.


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