Forums: Climbing Information: Technique & Training:
Getting Better Without Training
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Technique & Training

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All


teo916


Nov 7, 2011, 10:17 AM
Post #26 of 94 (3024 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 16, 2009
Posts: 46

Re: [caughtinside] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I have friends who have made big strength gains through just hangboarding, who recommend the rockprodigy program.

Forgive my ignorance if this is something obvious, but what is the 'rockprodigy' program? Can't seem to find anything conclusive via google.

-Teo


boadman


Nov 7, 2011, 10:25 AM
Post #27 of 94 (3021 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 726

Re: [johnwesely] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.


johnwesely


Nov 7, 2011, 10:37 AM
Post #28 of 94 (3016 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 5343

Re: [boadman] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

Campus boarding doesn't come to my mind when I think of home training.


Rudmin


Nov 7, 2011, 10:56 AM
Post #29 of 94 (3006 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606

Re: [DouglasHunter] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I was expecting the secret tip that a single mother on the internet discovered that will let you climb 5.12 without training.


shockabuku


Nov 7, 2011, 11:40 AM
Post #30 of 94 (2991 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4856

Re: [Rudmin] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Rudmin wrote:
I was expecting the secret tip that a single mother on the internet discovered that will let you climb 5.12 without training.

No shit, this^ is very disappointing.Wink


DouglasHunter


Nov 7, 2011, 1:33 PM
Post #31 of 94 (2966 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 1, 2010
Posts: 102

Re: [guangzhou] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.


ceebo


Nov 7, 2011, 1:37 PM
Post #32 of 94 (2966 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 8, 2009
Posts: 862

Re: [boadman] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Nov 7, 2011, 1:44 PM)


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 5:29 PM
Post #33 of 94 (2929 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2009
Posts: 662

Re: [ceebo] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 6:54 PM
Post #34 of 94 (2918 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [jbro_135] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 6:57 PM
Post #35 of 94 (2915 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2009
Posts: 662

Re: [jt512] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 6:59 PM
Post #36 of 94 (2913 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [jbro_135] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.


jbro_135


Nov 7, 2011, 7:01 PM
Post #37 of 94 (2910 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2009
Posts: 662

Re: [jt512] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.

I can do 6 on my doorframe, does that mean I can someday, with lots of practice and "miledge," climb V12?


jt512


Nov 7, 2011, 7:52 PM
Post #38 of 94 (2898 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [jbro_135] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jbro_135 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think that there's a combination of hangboarding and campusing at home in addition to actually climbing in the gym or outside once a week that would allow progress.

That suggests a climber who has had a solid learning base in technique, project and on-sight skills prior to cutting down to 1 day per week on the rock.

A novice climber will get better under the 1 day circumstance but the above aspects would take far longer to develop due to their lack of base skills (aka miledge). Chances are they would spend allot more time wasting their added strength on doing moves the wrong way... to the point where 8a strength is getting shut down on 7a climbing.

- edit. I have no doubt in my mind that you could take a complete new climber and put him on a steady progressive campus/ hang board plan. That person would reach v12 strength.. and then require a further 2 years climbing to make anything close to full use of it.


what is "V12 strength"?

Ceebo strongly believes in the strength–technique dichotomy.

Jay

So to demonstrate my V12 strength I should climb V5 with no feet? Or something?

I think it has more to do with pull-ups.

I can do 6 on my doorframe, does that mean I can someday, with lots of practice and "miledge," climb V12?

Six doorframe pull-ups? Dude, that's like 5.10a strength.

Jay


damienclimber


Nov 8, 2011, 12:32 PM
Post #39 of 94 (2839 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2011
Posts: 313

Re: [DouglasHunter] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

ALL YOU ARE INTERESTED IN IS SELLING BOOKS

getting better without training, hah, hah, hah- Peter Croft-
unless you are a naturally gifted climber!


boadman


Nov 8, 2011, 1:49 PM
Post #40 of 94 (2823 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 726

Re: [DouglasHunter] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?


teo916


Nov 8, 2011, 2:06 PM
Post #41 of 94 (2821 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 16, 2009
Posts: 46

Re: [boadman] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


damienclimber


Nov 8, 2011, 3:53 PM
Post #42 of 94 (2795 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2011
Posts: 313

Re: [teo916] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?


teo916


Nov 8, 2011, 4:46 PM
Post #43 of 94 (2785 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 16, 2009
Posts: 46

Re: [damienclimber] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

damienclimber wrote:
teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?

That's ALMOST funny, but then again, no.

Peter Croft wrote some pretty good books too, are you going to bash him if you can't get what you want out of them too?

I guess I'm not seeing (perhaps because you aren't explaining yourself very clearly) what your gripe is with the SCC, the author, or the subject of the OP. Is it just that the guy is sort of promoting his book/blog here? Wouldn't you if you wrote one?

Personally, I'm currently more interested in learning how others have spent 'off time' training, and think its a worthwhile discussion. This is because I'm stuck in the 'off time' world for a while, and frankly don't want to feel like I'm starting all over again when I get back to the vertical world in a few weeks (hopefully).

I'm also interested in learning how others set up their regular training plans when they can make it out to climb more frequently, (including diet plans, supplemental training, and skill improvement) and how I can better make the most of that time (which is what the subject of the OP was about). This is because I have a busy job, am a single father, and have about a hundred other hobbies I enjoy, so my time in the gym, at the crag, or exploring new climbing areas is limited.

This is really why I joined this site in the first place: to gather ideas and tips on how to improve my climbing, and the idea of doing so efficiently appeals to me.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure why you would doubt that the original thoughts of the post, or the ideas that can be found in the SCC (or other books on improving your climbing) wouldn't be of SOME value. Furthermore why would those of us who see this value would have to be 'hypnotized' to think so?

-Teo


DouglasHunter


Nov 9, 2011, 1:19 PM
Post #44 of 94 (2741 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 1, 2010
Posts: 102

Re: [boadman] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

boadman wrote:

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

Your question is a common one and I think its one reason why so many supplemental training activities are viewed as primary training in the world of climbing: many of us don't have access to good sport-specific training resources. So there are two things. Your actual climbing time needs to be very efficient, since you have so little of it you need to do the maximum amount of climbing that you can in that time, and do it at an intensity level that is meaningful to your current climbing level. It also means that you will probably want to focus on anaerobic endurance and stamina training. local aerobic endurance for climbing won't improve with so little time, the workout frequency needs to be greater than that.

Your non-climbing time should be spent doing hang board or system wall work for conditioning the forearm flexors. You should be doing activities that work on general conditioning and active range of motion for the hip joints and shoulders. You should also do conditioning for extension, and lateral flexion of the spine, as well as stability of the hip joint. I have a few activities that do these things but don't have time to post them now. When I have a chance I'll put them up on the blog.

I would not expect to make any gains in such a situation, but I would hope that it would make your climbing time more enjoyable and perhaps allow you to do more climbing in a day at the crag than you would otherwise.


ceebo


Nov 9, 2011, 2:23 PM
Post #45 of 94 (2719 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 8, 2009
Posts: 862

Re: [DouglasHunter] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet. Also, the withdrawl from doing something you love surely gives a massive boost in motivation when you get back to it.


sungam


Nov 9, 2011, 3:04 PM
Post #46 of 94 (2713 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26575

Re: [teo916] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

teo916 wrote:
you aren't explaining yourself very clearly
There is a reason no-one else has replied to damienclimber/enigma/psychoracist.


jt512


Nov 9, 2011, 3:22 PM
Post #47 of 94 (2704 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [ceebo] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay


damienclimber


Nov 9, 2011, 4:25 PM
Post #48 of 94 (2681 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 13, 2011
Posts: 313

Re: [teo916] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

teo916 wrote:
damienclimber wrote:
teo916 wrote:
boadman wrote:
DouglasHunter wrote:
boadman wrote:
Sure, but what's the best way to see steady consistent gains over long periods of time with relatively little access to actual rock or a good gym? That's where I feel the SCC really falls flat.

Are you trolling or are you being sincere?

If you are sincere Maybe a comparison would be helpful, lets say a figure skater or a classical dancer, a basketball player or a platform diver said they wan't to make consisten gains over long periods while doing the activity only 4 days per month? What do you think a coach would tell them? Does changing the context help show the character of the question? Essentailly, the question is based on a false premise. Climbing and the activities mentioned above are based on complex skills that take time to develop. The only way for the brain to learn the skils is to do the activity. I'm pretty sure that there is no scientific evidence anywhere suggesting that nonsport-specific conditioning as an independent factor has an impact on performance level in a given activity. If someone knows of such research please give a reference I would love to see it.

In reply to:
I agree here. If you only have access to the cliff on weekend trips, and no gym to train with, the SCC fails you.

I don't think it fails you, Dan and I just didn't want to lie about what sport science and cognitive science tell us about developing the skills utilized in any given sport. That's why our book is filled with those "boring" activities the point is to foster the development of sport-specific skills. Other authors have provided detailed non-climbing programs that they call training but their is no scientific support for the claims they make. Horst in particular claims that his off wall traiining activities are "sport-specific" but his examples make clear that he does not know what the criteria for specificity are.

Some, even many, climbers are candidates for supplemental training based on their individual context. Not having access to gym or cliff resources is one criteria for supplemental training. But one needs to understand what is to be expected from that training. One can develop active range of motion, flexibility, functional movement, do general conditioning and targeted conditioning. But that conditioning is simply that, on its own it can't improve performance, because that's not how skilled performance works.

On the blog I have a multi-part series on program design for climbers, the first 4 parts address sport-specific training and why its important. If you have time check it out.

I will also keep posting on the blog (www.selfcoachedclimber.com) regarding ways of improving without training as well as supplemental training, and how it contributes to performance. I want to make clear that I am not against supplemental training at all, if the athelet in question needs it.( I myself need supplemental training for alignment.) I just want people to know the different between sport-specific training and supplemental training and how different types of training work.

I'm being sincere. I've actually made my biggest gains in times where I couldn't climb at all because of work/life/injury constraints. Hangboard repeaters were pretty effective. More directly, my question is, if I've only got 2 hours of climbing gym time/week, what's the optimum form of training for my other two hour home training sessions?

I've actually heard several people say that they came back after a month or so off of climbing regularly only to find that they had improved somehow. I've always figured this had more to do with allowing the subtle injuries that accrue over a long time of climbing to heal so they weren't 'getting in the way' of being at peak level. Maybe I'm projecting here because I've recently been plagued with a few injuries, and am having to take time off. A little wishful thinking perhaps?

Anyway, I'm all for any tips on how to keep up with improving when I can't make it to the gym all the time. Or how to make sure I'm taking advantage of what little time I do have when I can go climbing. So the OP was appreciated...

Cheers,

-Teo


That is called rest and recovery. Yes that helps

Overtraining , overclimbing, doesn't equal gains,

Maybe Doug is working with some hypnosis. Subliminal messages that works on your subconscious.
So his books are boring to make you change your mindset.
Tony Robbins anyone?

Now can he make you believe you are Peter Croft?
When is your next performance?

That's ALMOST funny, but then again, no.

Peter Croft wrote some pretty good books too, are you going to bash him if you can't get what you want out of them too?

I guess I'm not seeing (perhaps because you aren't explaining yourself very clearly) what your gripe is with the SCC, the author, or the subject of the OP. Is it just that the guy is sort of promoting his book/blog here? Wouldn't you if you wrote one?

Personally, I'm currently more interested in learning how others have spent 'off time' training, and think its a worthwhile discussion. This is because I'm stuck in the 'off time' world for a while, and frankly don't want to feel like I'm starting all over again when I get back to the vertical world in a few weeks (hopefully).

I'm also interested in learning how others set up their regular training plans when they can make it out to climb more frequently, (including diet plans, supplemental training, and skill improvement) and how I can better make the most of that time (which is what the subject of the OP was about). This is because I have a busy job, am a single father, and have about a hundred other hobbies I enjoy, so my time in the gym, at the crag, or exploring new climbing areas is limited.

This is really why I joined this site in the first place: to gather ideas and tips on how to improve my climbing, and the idea of doing so efficiently appeals to me.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure why you would doubt that the original thoughts of the post, or the ideas that can be found in the SCC (or other books on improving your climbing) wouldn't be of SOME value. Furthermore why would those of us who see this value would have to be 'hypnotized' to think so?

-Teo

I've climbed with Peter Croft, he's quite sincere and has a great personality. Nothing like Douglas!

Why not let Doug sell his books through advertisements?
Or at least demonstrate this miracle of getting better without training?


HE IS JUST INTERESTED IN SELLING BOOKS Angelic


ceebo


Nov 9, 2011, 4:32 PM
Post #49 of 94 (2680 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 8, 2009
Posts: 862

Re: [jt512] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Clmbing better after such a break?, sounds a bit far fetched. More logical to be a result of muscles having time to fully carb store i nthe case of bad diet.

Muscles fully "carb store" in about 24 hours.

Jay

So regardless of diet and activity, anybody can fully carb load in 24 hours?. Cool.


tH1e-swiN1e


Nov 9, 2011, 4:42 PM
Post #50 of 94 (2677 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2011
Posts: 192

Re: [ceebo] Getting Better Without Training [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

F**k training. Just climb.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Technique & Training

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook