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Marylandclimber
Nov 15, 2011, 8:34 PM
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Is the new "GridLock Black Diamond Carabiner" any good? It looks really cool and helpful but is it worth buying for its price? Also, are Ball Nut Stoppers trustworthy? Are they strong and worth getting? Thanks for any replies.
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rtwilli4
Nov 15, 2011, 9:20 PM
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Biner is not worth the price. It's a gimmick.
Ball nuts are excellent for thin cracks. I like them over a micro-cam any day. In the larger sizes I'd rather just place a cam or stopper.
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tolman_paul
Nov 15, 2011, 10:37 PM
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Ball nuts are a specialty item, you occasionally find a placement that they are perfect for. But if you set them really well or fall on them, figure it's a permanent placement. For a beginner building a rack, I'd say ball nuts are one of the last items to add to your rack, if at all.
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gunkiemike
Nov 15, 2011, 10:57 PM
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In the hands of a new climber, non-leader like yourself, I would say no, Ball-Nuts are not trustworthy. They are a very tricky bit of gear that no newbie should be considering unless/until they have received hands-on instruction. Put in on your "Someday" list of gear, along with that big #4 Camalot and the drilling hardware.
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healyje
Nov 16, 2011, 10:20 AM
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tolman_paul wrote: Ball nuts are a specialty item, you occasionally find a placement that they are perfect for. But if you set them really well or fall on them, figure it's a permanent placement. For a beginner building a rack, I'd say ball nuts are one of the last items to add to your rack, if at all.
I'd agree with posters here that ball nuts are not something beginners should be attempting to place.
That said, I have about a dozen or more Lowe/Byrne ball nuts and use the #2 - #4 all the time and in my free climbing. I've taken over a dozen solid falls on them with six falls in a row on a #3 working a roof problem - I've never had a problem getting them out after a fall, ever. The one I took six falls on came right out, but it is pretty much one of the most perfect placements you could ever hope for.
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cwo2
Nov 16, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Addressing MD crags specifically, they are a welcome addition to my rack at MD Heights (Harpers Ferry); but I don't use them much elsewhere. Not at all necessary for any top rope anchors in the region.
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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 12:10 PM
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Thanks guys for your responses. Ball Nutz looked weird to me anyway. Than again I'm not quite sure how they work.
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 1:31 PM
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Marylandclimber wrote: Is the new "GridLock Black Diamond Carabiner" any good? It looks really cool and helpful but is it worth buying for its price? Also, are Ball Nut Stoppers trustworthy? Are they strong and worth getting? Thanks for any replies.
I bought one of those biners and traded it away for a normal locker about 2 months later.
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iknowfear
Nov 16, 2011, 4:42 PM
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shockabuku wrote: Marylandclimber wrote: Is the new "GridLock Black Diamond Carabiner" any good? It looks really cool and helpful but is it worth buying for its price? Also, are Ball Nut Stoppers trustworthy? Are they strong and worth getting? Thanks for any replies. I bought one of those biners and traded it away for a normal locker about 2 months later.
The Grid Lock is still far superior to the DMM Belay Master imho...
I actually quite like the grid lock...
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 4:50 PM
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iknowfear wrote: shockabuku wrote: Marylandclimber wrote: Is the new "GridLock Black Diamond Carabiner" any good? It looks really cool and helpful but is it worth buying for its price? Also, are Ball Nut Stoppers trustworthy? Are they strong and worth getting? Thanks for any replies. I bought one of those biners and traded it away for a normal locker about 2 months later. The Grid Lock is still far superior to the DMM Belay Master imho... I actually quite like the grid lock...
It does what it's supposed to do, I thought it's just a PITA to use.
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njrox
Nov 16, 2011, 5:08 PM
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I like the Gridlock. It's my dedicated belay device biner. Some people don't like how it clips/unclips to the belay loop but you'll get the hang of it.
No idea on Ball Nut Stoppers. I actually haven't seen them in use, or hanging from anyone's gear sling. I'm getting the impression from the replies that they're a bit of a speciality item. You may not need them right off the bat.
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bearbreeder
Nov 16, 2011, 5:23 PM
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has there been a single case where an xloaded belay biner broke while belaying in the real world?
if so, can someone point me to it?
i suspect that you should be more worried about belaying properly than these new fangled gadgets ... human error is what will kill you generally
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 5:34 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: has there been a single case where an xloaded belay biner broke while belaying in the real world? if so, can someone point me to it? i suspect that you should be more worried about belaying properly than these new fangled gadgets ... human error is what will kill you generally
I feel compelled to say that (aside from your questionable sexual based posts) a lot of what you have to add to this site makes a decent contribution but your 'this isn't the way we used to do it in the past so it shouldn't be changed' attitude confuses me when it deals with changes that don't really hurt anything. Why work so hard to stifle creativity that someday might lead to something interesting? This is an actual question and not just an attempt to flame you.
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bearbreeder
Nov 16, 2011, 6:03 PM
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i have no problem with a gridlock biner or other such innovation that solve a real problem ...
i do however have a problem with all the marketing hype ... and all the brainless hype on the forums that itll be the next best thing since sliced bread
if you dig up the old gridlock posts on different forums ... im sure youll find quite a bit of hype about deadly old school belay biners and how the gridlock will prevent you from ... well something ...
reality ... month later those of us without a gridlock are still living ... and some people have gotten rid of their gridlocks
same hype went around with the magnetron biners a year before release ... well see if the reality holds up
one piece of innovation (or copying) i do find useful is the mammut alpine smart ... i find it better than a gri gri, you can do 2 strand rappels, it slips slightly for trad, is assisted locking, is half the price and lighter than a gri gri ... and i use it
so i guess the answer is when theres a very real problem to solve, or it does something better in a way that makes a difference ... innovation, im all for it ... however when its more marketing hype ... buy it if you want, just dont tell me i NEED it
ive had quite a few partners go out and buy the new gridlock ... when they started bragging about how itll prevent people from dying because of the lack of xloading ... i simply said ... "why (insert name), how does it help you since im belaying you with a deadly normal locker" ...
none of them were persuaded to buy me a free gridlock for me to use on em ... so i guess it cant be that great ... after all if their life aint with ~20$ or so to prevent the deadly xloading 
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shockabuku
Nov 16, 2011, 7:15 PM
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thanks
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petsfed
Nov 16, 2011, 7:43 PM
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Judging by their constant appearance on backpacks, I guess its the $20 fiddly accessory to advertise that you're a hardcore climber. You know, in case the other climbers on the bus/subway need to bow down to your clear superiority.
When I need a new belay biner, I might check it out. Seems like it'd be nice for the gri-gri if the bar stock fits the hole.
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njrox
Nov 16, 2011, 8:00 PM
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Gridlock fits the GriGri2 like a glove.
I actually bought my Gridlock and GriGiri2 together, not long after they both came out. And yes, I was the cool kid at the crag for a few days with the fresh out the box Gridlock/GriGri2 combo and all the crusty old climbers came by to inspect and admire my shiny new gear.
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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 8:34 PM
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I guess your right but I'm sure there has been and if not, I don't wan't to be the first!
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rossross
Nov 16, 2011, 8:40 PM
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Ball Nuts
I love em. Great in small cracks. Sometimes can be a bit of a pain to get out if you fall on em. But thats the point. If im placing a small piece of gear I want it to be solid if i pitch off on it. I have always gotten it out, all two times lol. They are not a good idea for TR anchors.
Grid lock
I have one. I bought it for when I go rope soloing, which is normally when im working a proj. Seems like every time I looked down my mini traxion was cross loaded. So when this came out I picked one up. Works great if your rope soloing a lot. Since I have one I started using it on my grigri. It works fine. I had a couple of friends complain about it, specifically about how annoying it is to clip into. I proceed to make fun of them. You clip it into belay loop, then open the gate again to set the belay loop in the "grid lock", it takes about an extra 1/2 second once you have done it 2-3 times. What can be a little annoying is when your are not using the belay device and have it hanging off your harness. Unless you clip the grigri into the "grid lock" part of the biner it ends up sticking out sideways. But again its an easy fix, I usualy just throw it on the rope bag.
Conclusion
Buy a couple ball nuts if you are leading lots of thin cracks and have the money to spare.
Buy a grid lock if you do lots of rope soloing, or if you need to replace your current belay biner. But I would def not run out and get one just because.
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bearbreeder
Nov 16, 2011, 8:41 PM
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this isnt a climbing related article . but i think its quite instructive how marketers will use fear to sell gear ... and how a lot of outdoor media is not reliable
i think as climbing becomes more and more popular ... youll see these kinds of marketing issues come out more often with climbing gear
convince enough people that if you dont buy a "safer" product and that youll die ... and enough people will buy it 
http://www.nytimes.com/...e&pagewanted=all
When a few of Nike’s shoes didn’t fare so well in the 1981 reviews, the company pulled its $1 million advertising contract with Runner’s World. Nike already had started its own magazine, Running, which would publish shoe reviews and commission star writers like Ken Kesey and Hunter S. Thompson.
“Nike would never advertise with me again,” Anderson says. “That hurt us bad.” In 1985, Anderson sold Runner’s World to Rodale, which, he says, promptly abolished his grading system. Today, every shoe in Runner’s World is effectively “recommended” for one kind of runner or another. David Willey, the magazine’s current editor, says that it only tests shoes that “are worth our while.” After Nike closed its magazine, it took its advertising back to Runner’s World. (Megan Saalfeld, a Nike spokeswoman, says she was unable to find someone to comment about this episode.)
“It’s a grading system where you can only get an A,” says Anderson, who went on to become the founder and chief executive of Ujena Swimwear.
Just as the shoe reviews were changing, so were the shoes: fear, the greatest of marketing tools, entered the game. Instead of being sold as performance accessories, running shoes were rebranded as safety items, like bike helmets and smoke alarms. Consumers were told they’d get hurt, perhaps for life, if they didn’t buy the “right” shoes. It was an audacious move that flew in the face of several biological truths: humans had thrived as running animals for two million years without corrective shoes, and asphalt was no harder than the traditional hunting terrains of the African savanna.
In 1985, Benno Nigg, founder and currently co-director of the University of Calgary’s Human Performance Lab, floated the notion that impact and rear-foot motion (called pronation) were dangerous. His work helped spur an arms race of experimental technology to counter those risks with plush heels and wedged shoes. Running magazines spread the new gospel. To this day, Runner’s World tells beginners that their first workout should be opening their wallets: “Go to a specialty running store . . . you’ll leave with a comfortable pair of shoes that will have you running pain- and injury-free.”
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 16, 2011, 8:43 PM)
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njrox
Nov 16, 2011, 9:22 PM
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It's a biner with a convenient add-on, a cool little nub that in theory will prevent it from rotating around your belay loop and getting cross-loaded. It’s basically an upgrade. No, it’s not guarunteed to save your life. Yes, you can use something else instead. It's not talisman. And it's not some sort of nefarious fear tactic concocted by The Man who controls The Industry to make a ton of money off of unsuspected scared climbers either. Just because someone makes an innovation inspired by saftey doesn’t necessarily cancel out it’s benefit. I use a Gridlock because A. I already bought one, B. it’s worked fine so far and C. it’s already on my harness. Have I and do I use other biners to belay (or be belayed)? Yes. Do I look as cool? HELL NO!!! (just kidding)
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moose_droppings
Nov 16, 2011, 9:41 PM
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I don't buy into hyped up gear, nor is all newer gear hype. We know from testing that a cross loaded biner is significantly weaker. If a newly released belay biner can prevent cross loading, thus making it safer, then whats wrong if someone wants to up their odds? Just because people aren't dying left and right without them doesn't make them useless.
It's not hurting my safety, and it's not hurting theirs, to each their own if they use one or not.
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bearbreeder
Nov 16, 2011, 10:34 PM
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no one with a gridlock has insisted that i belay em with a gridlock
unless you do ... how does that make your life safer, yr partners sure ...but unless you insist yr partner belay you with a gridlock, its a bit hypocritical
perhaps someone can provide me with the accident report of a belay biner failure due to xloading ...
its a perfectly fine belay biner ... but so are a ton of other ones that are cheaper and lighter ... and whos users dont go on about how safe their gdirlock is
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 16, 2011, 10:36 PM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 16, 2011, 11:19 PM
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i certainly dont "belittle" my partners who use one
unless one of them says ... "hey my new gridlock wont xload so its safer"
to which i reply ... "great ... but ive got an old deadly biner, so how does that help you?"
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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 11:45 PM
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After you say that your partner says "Than I don't want your deadly old biner belaying me" and he leaves. :p
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tolman_paul
Nov 16, 2011, 11:49 PM
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One thing to consider with the gridlock, and any other more complex gizmo, is how does it work in the real world of climbing? For instance, on a rappel are you more likel to get your shirt or a sling snagged on the gridlock and jamming up the works? You'd be amazed how easily gear can tangle up, when you don't want it to. Hence to me, the gridlock is a potential problem, and I don't see it making me a safer climber. Yes a belay biner can wander while belaying and be cross loaded. The key is belaying smoothly.
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Marylandclimber
Nov 16, 2011, 11:49 PM
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MD climber :D
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Jooler
Nov 17, 2011, 12:30 AM
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Someone was using a gridlock biner at Horne Lake last weekend and my partner and I actually witnessed it cross load. No idea how, if there is a little groove on it or something or not. He was belaying with a grigri2. The end of the biner was still clipped into his belay loop but somehow the grigri caught on maybe a bump or the gate or something, and the biner stayed crossloaded while he lowered his climber off the top of the climb. If I had had a camera I would have pretended to take a picture of something behind him to catch the crossloaded gridlock in action.
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moose_droppings
Nov 17, 2011, 3:21 AM
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tolman_paul wrote: One thing to consider with the gridlock, and any other more complex gizmo, is how does it work in the real world of climbing? For instance, on a rappel are you more likel to get your shirt or a sling snagged on the gridlock and jamming up the works? You'd be amazed how easily gear can tangle up, when you don't want it to. Hence to me, the gridlock is a potential problem, and I don't see it making me a safer climber. Yes a belay biner can wander while belaying and be cross loaded. The key is belaying smoothly.
Yeah, and the key to not getting things tangled up in your rap biner is to watch what your doing, with any biner. I'm not buying that the gridlock automatically makes rapping less safe, let alone a less safe climber. You are entitled to your belief though.
I'm not keen on the gridlock, but if someone wants to use one, until shown that they are inferior, let them have at it. I would imagine (here I go sounding like BB) that Black Diamond has done much more testing on them than you.
So bearbreeder, who ya gonna believe, BD or some RC expert. In my first response to you I was politely trying to point out to you that you were starting to sound like one of the " I know better RC experts" that you constantly chastise.
Spell edit.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 17, 2011, 3:23 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 3:35 AM
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Obviously plenty of people will believe marketing departments
Put it this way if xloaded belay biners are a real issue ... Why does bd sell normal lockers for belaying purposes
After all safety is paramount
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 7:25 AM
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well BD obviously believes that their rocklock $10 biner which i use occasionally works fine ...
so whats all this about spending extra $$$ on a belay biner that doesnt xload? ...
fear sells ... every marketer knows that ... even if its not said explicitely, its often implied ... ie buy this $$$ jacket or it will fail and youll go poofy, buy these quality cams or theyll blow on you, buy this biner or itll snap on you
everyone has seen people and companies implying ways to justify parting you from your $$$$ ... and it works
i see absolutely nothing hypocritical in asking WHY we should buy all this fancy new gear ... in some cases it may be worth it ... in others it likely wont be
ask yourself this ... is it really .... can someone name one accident report where it happened with a properly tightened locker ???
i have yet to have any partner go through my gear and refuse to climb on my 7kn OG rated neutrinos ... or insist that i belay em with a gridlock ... which i will gladly do if it helps em keep their head on when leading ...
i think it says wonders when people sprout off about "safety" this and "safety" that ... yet still climb with others using "not as safe" gear ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 17, 2011, 9:45 AM)
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iknowfear
Nov 17, 2011, 9:24 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: no one with a gridlock has insisted that i belay em with a gridlock unless you do ... how does that make your life safer, yr partners sure ...but unless you insist yr partner belay you with a gridlock, its a bit hypocritical perhaps someone can provide me with the accident report of a belay biner failure due to xloading ... its a perfectly fine belay biner ... but so are a ton of other ones that are cheaper and lighter ... and whos users dont go on about how safe their gdirlock is
Your insistance in "old ways" is on par with your inability to google.
http://books.google.ch/...&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ
I'd have to look up references, but I think that there was some documentation of cases in the book series by Pit Schubert.
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 9:42 AM
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iknowfear wrote: Your insistance in "old ways" is on par with your inability to google. http://books.google.ch/...&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ I'd have to look up references, but I think that there was some documentation of cases in the book series by Pit Schubert.
thanks for this reference ... could you provide one where it was being used as part of a proper belay system that isnt something thats quite out of the manufacturers recommendation (petzl does not recommend the gri gri for lead solo, nor i suspect would DMM recommend a single biner for that attachement point on a lead solo)
note the silent partner instructions which IS recommended for leading uses TWO biners
i take it then that you refuse to use belay biners that can be cross loaded ... or be belayed by one ...
or do ya just not solo on lead with one and gri gri as in the reference ...
hmmmm ....
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 17, 2011, 9:55 AM)
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shoo
Nov 17, 2011, 10:02 AM
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Crossloaded belay carabiners, as used when belaying, simply don't fail when crossloaded, either in theory or practice. In other words, for standard use, crossloading is a negligible, possibly non-existant, safety issue. This is not necessarily true of other uses (roped soloing in particular).
If no safety is gained, but annoyance of use and additional cost is incurred, you have a net negative. The gridlock is therefore worse than more standard biners for normal belay use. The belay master (which i have and never use) at least help ensure that your screw gate is locked, which is an actual safety issue.
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eRJe
Nov 17, 2011, 2:22 PM
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I haven't used or even really looked at a Gridlock, but I have a question about them. Perhaps someoen that uses them could answer this for me. Are they big enough to belay using a Munter, or if you select one as your belay biner are you limited to only using a belay device?
I don't normally belay on a Munter, but I also don't normally drop my belay device half way down a multi-pitch route either.
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njrox
Nov 17, 2011, 2:35 PM
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good question. I don't have my gridlock or a rope right in front of me, but I want to say that it would be big enough. like, just enough.
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moose_droppings
Nov 17, 2011, 4:29 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: well BD obviously believes that their rocklock $10 biner which i use occasionally works fine ... so whats all this about spending extra $$$ on a belay biner that doesnt xload? ... fear sells ... every marketer knows that ... even if its not said explicitely, its often implied ... ie buy this $$$ jacket or it will fail and youll go poofy, buy these quality cams or theyll blow on you, buy this biner or itll snap on you everyone has seen people and companies implying ways to justify parting you from your $$$$ ... and it works i see absolutely nothing hypocritical in asking WHY we should buy all this fancy new gear ... in some cases it may be worth it ... in others it likely wont be ask yourself this ... is it really .... can someone name one accident report where it happened with a properly tightened locker ??? i have yet to have any partner go through my gear and refuse to climb on my 7kn OG rated neutrinos ... or insist that i belay em with a gridlock ... which i will gladly do if it helps em keep their head on when leading ... i think it says wonders when people sprout off about "safety" this and "safety" that ... yet still climb with others using "not as safe" gear ...
Thanks for proving my observation.
I'll reiterate for you. I don't necessarily disagree with all your positions. By you making the call and insisting which instances (companies included) someone is right or wrong makes you nothing less than what you purport to loath, the "RC expert". That's all I'm referring to as, hypocritical.
Their is nothing wrong with someone that chooses to use the gridlock, it's not what you or I would use, so what. I'm not looking down at them because I deem the gridlock unnecessary or some "RC experts" can get by with another biner of choice. Not everyone is a hard core as you. I'll simply state my choice of belay biner or even call it hype, but I will feel no need to defend my position. It's simply a personal choice.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 17, 2011, 4:35 PM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 17, 2011, 7:16 PM
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you missed it
to put it simply
if someone chooses to use the gridlock its up to them ... and i have several partners who use the gridlock ... it their business
if however they choose to go off sprouting about how itll make em "safer" on a belay to me or telling someone i know about how its "safer" and they "need" one ... then it becomes my business
just like people who use quads for 2 bolts anchors, refuse to use dropped biners, insist on backing up their belay loops etc ... its their business ... until they start insisting how "safe" it is, and thus by extension implying or explicitely stating that you are somehow less safe for not using one
its really that simple
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shockabuku
Nov 17, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #42 of 53
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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TOO MANY F-ING EMOTICONS!!!
STOP IT!STOP IT!STOP IT!
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Qozux
Nov 18, 2011, 12:11 AM
Post #43 of 53
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Registered: Oct 19, 2011
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I have a Gridlock and I use it because I find it annoying when my belay carabiner crossloads. I'm sure that close to 100% of non-abused 'biners made in the last several years are perfectly safe, so I don't really care what my belayer is using as long as it's a locker and they have good technique. I prefer (as of late) to belay with my Gridlock because I feel it puts my belay device (Gri-Gri, ATC-XP, Chuy) in a more comfortable position for me.
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qwert
Nov 18, 2011, 8:55 AM
Post #44 of 53
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Registered: Mar 24, 2004
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Qozux wrote: I have a Gridlock and I use it because I find it annoying when my belay carabiner crossloads. I'm sure that close to 100% of non-abused 'biners made in the last several years are perfectly safe, so I don't really care what my belayer is using as long as it's a locker and they have good technique. I prefer (as of late) to belay with my Gridlock because I feel it puts my belay device (Gri-Gri, ATC-XP, Chuy) in a more comfortable position for me.
Will it be a safety issue if your belay biner gets crossloaded?
Probably no.
Can it be annoying?
Probably yes.
Personally i hate it if the biner flips. Its not a problem, but i dont like it (handling wise), so i would really like to have a biner that avoids that.
However due to the fact that the gridlock does not have 100% round stock and that it seems to me as if the alloy is too soft, i keep using a "normal" biner. But should BD decide to produce an improved version (round stock, good alloy) i will definitely get one, even though that will mean that im going to spend ~15€ on an item that will see no other use than gym and sport climbing belaying.
qwert
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billcoe_
Nov 18, 2011, 10:35 PM
Post #45 of 53
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Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded?
Yes. Several fatalities attest to this.
That is has occurred in the past via rapping on figure 8s indicates that it is possible to happen with a Gri Gri or Cinch belay if the Gri Gri got in the wrong position AND the leader fell at that time. Probable ? Very very low chance. As the belayer typically monitors the belay, it would be very very rare, but still could happen.
I've considered and thought of it, but still don't own a DMM belaymaster or a Gridlock. However, I have been using a Fixe twist lock since before those devices came out stictly because the Gri Gri (Ciinch) can't ride over the gate as the twist section is too big on both ends of the gate. No chance at all of a failure due to crossloading. NONE.
You should be considering these kinds of things on all of your systems....all the time. All of us should. Will I let someone belay me with a regular locker. Sure. Would I be more likely to put my device on the rope first. Sure. However, I also don't climb with people who have only been climbing for less than 2 years. Figure that the experience reduces my chance of them not monitoring their belay device or a million other things we take for granted as experienced climbers.
But that's me. Do whatever you want. It's a (mostly) free country for now.
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qwert
Nov 19, 2011, 8:48 AM
Post #46 of 53
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billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this. That is has occurred in the past via rapping on figure 8s indicates that it is possible to happen with a Gri Gri or Cinch belay if the Gri Gri got in the wrong position AND the leader fell at that time. …
Maybe i'll do some photos later.
qwert
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shoo
Nov 19, 2011, 1:21 PM
Post #47 of 53
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billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this.
Evidence please, or I am calling BS to this statement. I simply don't believe that a modern carabiner would fail under bodyweight while crossloaded.
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caughtinside
Nov 20, 2011, 12:52 AM
Post #48 of 53
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Gridlocks... very popular with the n00b crowd. Also those who have to have the latest and greatest.
I only have one little Gridlock story. So this summer me and a buddy are heading up to the base of a climb. We pass another party at the base of a different climb. It's a very popular multipitch 5.7, and the dude is just racked for bear. Full double rack plus hexes and at least 3 Big Bros. Sweet.
But the Designated Second of this partnership is the real enigma. He has two tripled slings on his harness... and both slings have two Gridlocks. 4 Gridlocks? I can only speculate, but I'd guess the Designated Second planned to use those slings to connect himself to the anchor. Why Gridlocks? Either a foolish clerk told him they prevent the deadly cross load, or else maybe he just saw the price tag and thought the most expensive biners are the best? The world may never know. But hell, that's 4 lockers for $100.
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qwert
Nov 20, 2011, 10:01 AM
Post #49 of 53
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shoo wrote: billcoe_ wrote: Can a locker fail under body weight only if it is cross loaded? Yes. Several fatalities attest to this. Evidence please, or I am calling BS to this statement. I simply don't believe that a modern carabiner would fail under bodyweight while crossloaded.
So just image the locker sitting in the harness, and a rope in the 8.
If the rope is tensioned (as it would be, while you are belaying) the 8 can easily stay in that position. Try it yourself! with most lockers you can easily find a position where you can let the 8 rest on the gate just with a little tension of the rope.
If you then put some force on the rope - and thus the 8 - as for example in a fall, the 8 acts as a lever and multiplies that force. It is not enough to break the biner in cross loading mode, but i can be enough to break the "barrell" (or however that thin is called) of the screwgate, thus unclipping the 8, as if you would have been using a nonlocker.
So its nor really a crossloading faliure, but rather an open gate failure, but it has been caused by crossloading.
But i think that failure mode is specific for the 8. I cant really reproduce it with an ATC or something, though i think one could also do it with an grigri or similar (probably anything where only the "hard" belay device is attached to the belay carabiner, and not the rope.
Unfortunately i cant find it online, but i am pretty sure that the DAV has listed quite some accidents with that, and probably indeed some fatalities.
qwert
(This post was edited by qwert on Nov 20, 2011, 10:03 AM)
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bearbreeder
Nov 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
Post #50 of 53
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Registered: Feb 2, 2009
Posts: 1960
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that type of failure looks like it would still happen with a gridlock ... a belay master however may prevent it ...
not that it has anything to do with regular belay use ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Nov 20, 2011, 10:25 AM)
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qwert
Nov 20, 2011, 11:37 AM
Post #51 of 53
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bearbreeder wrote: that type of failure looks like it would still happen with a gridlock ... a belay master however may prevent it ...
Though it would be prevented, if you put the 8 in the small end of the gridlock (could you fit it in there?).
In reply to: not that it has anything to do with regular belay use ...
Not too long ago, the 8 was the prevalent belay device here in europe, and you still see it used quite often. Those people that use it regularly, almost all have the 8 fixed to the "bottom" of their belay biner with tape or some rubber bands, to preven the issue pictured above!
qwert
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bearbreeder
Nov 20, 2011, 1:04 PM
Post #52 of 53
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well i can safely say that ive never seen anyone belay with a figure 8 and a gridlock ... im sure someone out there has seen it though
BD should market the gridlock as best used for lead soloing on gri gris and belaying on figure 8s ... unfortunately i think that will restrict the size of their intended market
like i said what people buy is up to them ... as long as they dont insist its "safer", especially if they dont insist i belay em with one of those "safe" biners ....
people on the intrawebs spend more time arguing over how "unsafe" or "safe" gear is .... than worrying about the things that are most likely to hurt you ...
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Marylandclimber
Nov 24, 2011, 4:30 PM
Post #53 of 53
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Registered: Sep 3, 2011
Posts: 224
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I gotta agree with there.
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