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Lichenness Stripped of Bolts
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Claymsmith


Nov 26, 2011, 9:04 PM
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Lichenness Stripped of Bolts  (North_America: United_States: Alabama: Northern: Sandrock__Cherokee_Rock_Village_)
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This route has been stripped and the bolts ground off. This is pretty aggravating. It was a fun short route and not sure why someone would vandalize it. Does anyone know anything about it? I would love to get my hands on whoever did it.


jae8908


Nov 27, 2011, 3:30 PM
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What? that is crazy! that is a good short route!


johnwesely


Nov 27, 2011, 3:39 PM
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Re: [Claymsmith] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.


dudemanbu


Nov 27, 2011, 5:25 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

Honestly, everything under 5.13b should really be chopped in that case, while we're throwing out arbitrary numbers, we might as well put the ceiling over the heads of most gym rats.


shockabuku


Nov 27, 2011, 5:28 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.


johnwesely


Nov 27, 2011, 6:07 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.


shockabuku


Nov 27, 2011, 6:29 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The Gunks see worse crowds than anywhere else I have ever climbed. I have yet to find a sub 5.10 sport route there.Unsure


johnwesely


Nov 27, 2011, 6:45 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The Gunks see worse crowds than anywhere else I have ever climbed. I have yet to find a sub 5.10 sport route there.Unsure

Imagine the gunks if everything was rap bolted.


jt512


Nov 27, 2011, 8:34 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The Gunks see worse crowds than anywhere else I have ever climbed. I have yet to find a sub 5.10 sport route there.Unsure

Imagine the gunks if everything was rap bolted.

Why just imagine?

Jay


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 4:17 AM
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jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The Gunks see worse crowds than anywhere else I have ever climbed. I have yet to find a sub 5.10 sport route there.Unsure

Imagine the gunks if everything was rap bolted.

Why just imagine?

Jay

Because I would end up having to chop most of the routes afterwards.


sungam


Nov 28, 2011, 5:01 AM
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Re: [jt512] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy. Once you get to 5.10, the quality goes up considerably, but really good 5.10 sport routes are not exactly common.

The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, maybe, maybe not.

The Gunks see worse crowds than anywhere else I have ever climbed. I have yet to find a sub 5.10 sport route there.Unsure

Imagine the gunks if everything was rap bolted.

Why just imagine?

Jay
Oah. Mah. Gawd. There iz just some things you can't joke about, Jay. The Gunks is serious business. If the little kiddies see a adult joking about it maybe the wont get it and they will get the wrong idea and bolt the whole gunks. All of it, man. What if the bolted all of it before they realised you were just kidding?


6pacfershur


Nov 28, 2011, 9:54 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

The rationale for that is not as clear to me as it apparently is to you. Perhaps you could explain.

There are a few reasons. Most sub 5.10 sport routes are not really any fun. There are a few that are, but by and large, the quality of sub 5.10 sport is pretty poor. They are usually short, low angle, or chossy.

wow, sounds like your area sucks....


eRJe


Nov 28, 2011, 11:52 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.
I wish I was born pulling in the 5.12-5.13 range so that I could rock climb too. O well, I guess I will have to settle for not being a d-bag on the internet.


pegsablaze


Nov 28, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Maybe you didn't learn to lead climb outside on 5.8s and 5.9s, but I sure did, and I know quite a few good, respectful people who have. Just because you take no pleasure in the sub 5.10 climbs doesn't make them useless. It just makes them the first step to leading comfortably outside.

Crowds, on the other hand, I agree with. Sandrock doesn't need anymore guided groups than it is already subjected to. However, they typically stick to Jaws Block with its accessibility to easily set topropes.

And if worse comes to worst, you could always give the groups a show as you send their toprope on lead!


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 11:57 AM
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eRJe wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.
I wish I was born pulling in the 5.12-5.13 range so that I could rock climb too. O well, I guess I will have to settle for not being a d-bag on the internet.

You don't have to climb 5.12 or .13, just 5.10. If you climb trad, you can climb anything you want.


eRJe


Nov 28, 2011, 1:36 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
eRJe wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.
I wish I was born pulling in the 5.12-5.13 range so that I could rock climb too. O well, I guess I will have to settle for not being a d-bag on the internet.

You don't have to climb 5.12 or .13, just 5.10. If you climb trad, you can climb anything you want.
Hey. I've got another great idea on how we can make rock climbing really inaccessible to beginners to make sure we never have to share all that lovely rock tha is NOT OUR. Let's make a website and pretend to offer help, but when gumbys ask us any questions we can just flame them, tell them they are going to die and let them know that they are generally not welcomed at "our" crags. O wait. Rc.com beat us to it.

It would really be nice if you were to remember back when you started climbing. Someone went out of their way to help you learn. Someone bolted beginner routes you could climb. And someone actually encouraged you to climb. Try paying the favour forward.


Partner j_ung


Nov 28, 2011, 1:50 PM
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eRJe wrote:
It would really be nice if you were to remember back when you started climbing. Someone went out of their way to help you learn. Someone bolted beginner routes you could climb. And someone actually encouraged you to climb. Try paying the favour forward.

That's not necessarily true of every climber. While I don't agree with johnwesely that we should run around chopping every sport route under 10 or 11, I wholeheartedly agree that, in most American cases anyway, moderate sport climbs eventually equal overcrowding. I'd love it if people bolting moderate routes thought about things like parking and the opinions of land managers before doing so.

To be fair, I've bolted a couple moderate sport climbs in my day (but only in places that can handle the traffic) and I've taken beginners to crags with moderate sport climbs that probably can handle the eventual crags.

Again, I'm not advocating the removal of all such routes, just some forethought on the parts of developers.


eRJe


Nov 28, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Fair point. I just get sick of coming to RC.com and every second post is about how noobs are ruining the world and should all fuck off and die. There are a lot of things to consider when setting new routes. A lot of responsibilities that many most climbers would not think of. At the same time we were all beginners once I think it would serve some people well to remember that.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 2:20 PM
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eRJe wrote:
Fair point. I just get sick of coming to RC.com and every second post is about how noobs are ruining the world and should all fuck off and die. There are a lot of things to consider when setting new routes. A lot of responsibilities that many most climbers would not think of. At the same time we were all beginners once I think it would serve some people well to remember that.

I was never a beginner.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 2:32 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, if you think crowds are bad for climbers, you should probably start by dissuading the one climber you yourself are guaranteed to influence.

You don't like crowds, wanna spread impact so we don't get the place closed? Start by not going yourself.

If all it took to protect an area from uninformed jackasses ruining it for the rest of us is just not telling them about it, the world would truly be a better place. But I've seen what just-shut-up-already as a managment solution does to places. We will lose free camping in Ten Sleep, probably within the next 2 years, because of it. We got a hideous parking lot in Indian Creek because of it.

Its like teen pregnancy. By just telling folks not to go (but not, you know, how to act if they still go) we compound the issue.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 3:00 PM
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petsfed wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
The other reason is crowds. Sub 5.10 sport routes are probably the key driver of crowding at the crags because the barrier to entry is so low. Crowds are bad for access. What is bad for access is bad for climbers.

Well, if you think crowds are bad for climbers, you should probably start by dissuading the one climber you yourself are guaranteed to influence.

You don't like crowds, wanna spread impact so we don't get the place closed? Start by not going yourself.

If all it took to protect an area from uninformed jackasses ruining it for the rest of us is just not telling them about it, the world would truly be a better place. But I've seen what just-shut-up-already as a managment solution does to places. We will lose free camping in Ten Sleep, probably within the next 2 years, because of it. We got a hideous parking lot in Indian Creek because of it.

Its like teen pregnancy. By just telling folks not to go (but not, you know, how to act if they still go) we compound the issue.

I am not telling people not to go. Everyone has just as much right as everyone else if the land is public. I just think the barrier to entry should be higher than 5.8 sport.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 3:25 PM
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And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.


sp115


Nov 28, 2011, 3:50 PM
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petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 28, 2011, 3:52 PM)


sungam


Nov 28, 2011, 4:02 PM
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Nah, it's more funny this way.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 4:17 PM
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sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 4:20 PM
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petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

There doesn't need to be a cutoff, if a 5.9 or .8 sport route is really quality, a rare few are, then bolt it. I just don't see the point in all the sub 5.11 crappy sport routes. There are thousands of awesome trad climbs at those grades.


jae8908


Nov 28, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Licheness wasn't a great five star climb but it was a fun climb. I don't understand why someone would remove new bolts. They were very new as well as the route just to the left of it. Does anyone know if it is still there? I think it is called Tarzan.


Gmburns2000


Nov 28, 2011, 5:03 PM
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sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Knowing John...

sungam wrote:
Nah, it's more funny this way.

^^ is spot on.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 5:43 PM
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jae8908 wrote:
Licheness wasn't a great five star climb but it was a fun climb. I don't understand why someone would remove new bolts. They were very new as well as the route just to the left of it. Does anyone know if it is still there? I think it is called Tarzan.

Licheness was a zero star climb if I ever saw one, a perfect example of sub-mediocrity.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 6:01 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
There doesn't need to be a cutoff, if a 5.9 or .8 sport route is really quality, a rare few are, then bolt it. I just don't see the point in all the sub 5.11 crappy sport routes. There are thousands of awesome trad climbs at those grades.

Is this the point then? A sport vs. trad debate?

I've found that its really hard to find an enduring, classic line, no matter what the protection scheme, under 5.10. I think the Durrance Crack, and the Bastille Crack, and a litany of other sub-5.10, traditionally protected routes to be just lousy aside from a single pitch. Its been my experience that a truly high quality 5.10 route is a rarity. The only reason we don't see as many sub 5.10 sport routes of such high quality as those "classics" is because sport climbing at that grade is not a century old.

I'm not arguing for anyone to bolt the planet. I come from a gear-protected background, and climb almost exclusively at a crack climbing area. I'm saying that your statement about easy to moderate sport climbing drawing crowds ignores that hard sport climbing also draws crowds, but maybe of sort you understand better. Moreover, it SUCKS to climb at a crag that lacks warmups if your limit is well represented at those crags. What you're arguing for is a world where anyone who can't consistently onsight 5.11+ shouldn't even think about moving towards pure gymnastic movement as a goal in and of itself. This ignores entirely the fact that if you eliminate the crappy sport climbs (and I agree, there are a LOT of them), getting to the good stuff in, say, Colorado, means that you get to spend a lot of time in death fall territory before you have the requisite technical skill to just hang there with a dumb look on your face at each bolt. That's a pretty steep learning curve if your end goal is to *remove* risk from the equation.

I'm not interested in a sport vs. trad debate, and I refuse to engage in one. All I'm saying is that a "you must be this rad to enter" sign on sport climbing is insulting, and presupposes that what attracted you to climbing is what attracted me to climbing. This isn't 1973, climbing hasn't been a unified community since before the advent of "sport" climbing, in terms of perspective, goals or ethics.

Of course, this might all just be a massive troll, in which case I need to spit the hook out and go about my business.


sp115


Nov 28, 2011, 6:04 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
I was never a beginner.
Sorry Petsfed, but this ^^ might have been worth all the carnage.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 28, 2011, 6:07 PM)


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 6:24 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Moreover, it SUCKS to climb at a crag that lacks warmups if your limit is well represented at those crags. What you're arguing for is a world where anyone who can't consistently onsight 5.11+ shouldn't even think about moving towards pure gymnastic movement as a goal in and of itself.

It doesn't suck to climb at areas like that. It just sucks to warm up at them. I never said anything about onsighting anything. Even if we eliminated everything but the classics under 5.11, you would only need to be able to bolt to bolt 5.11a sport, hardly a herculean task.

In reply to:
This ignores entirely the fact that if you eliminate the crappy sport climbs (and I agree, there are a LOT of them), getting to the good stuff in, say, Colorado, means that you get to spend a lot of time in death fall territory before you have the requisite technical skill to just hang there with a dumb look on your face at each bolt.

Who ever said anything about having to climb R or X rated routes? Unless Colorado is way more hardcore than even North Carolina, there is no way you would have to climb a bunch of scary stuff to get good enough to climb 5.10 or 5.11 sport. What a crazy straw man.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 7:38 PM
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Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 7:51 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...


guangzhou


Nov 29, 2011, 12:51 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Nov 29, 2011, 3:18 AM)


viciado


Nov 29, 2011, 2:46 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
Just because the routes are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to bolt them.

fixed for ya'


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 3:47 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.


guangzhou


Nov 29, 2011, 4:19 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.
So, without much effort you listed three routes of the top of your head. Guess you just proved that Routes below 5.10 can be good.

On a side note, if you pull the bolts from the easier routes just to get rid of crowds, you'll just make the 5.10 or 5.11, or 5.12 what ever the lowest number is, that much more crowded as climbers climb draw to draw.

Plenty of routes out there, avoid the ones that don't appeal to you.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 5:12 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.
So, without much effort you listed three routes of the top of your head. Guess you just proved that Routes below 5.10 can be good.

On a side note, if you pull the bolts from the easier routes just to get rid of crowds, you'll just make the 5.10 or 5.11, or 5.12 what ever the lowest number is, that much more crowded as climbers climb draw to draw.

Plenty of routes out there, avoid the ones that don't appeal to you.

I never said they can't be good, but most of them are not. Climbers, even noobs, should not be subjected to crappy routes. It just as much not fair to them as it is unfair to me that they are even climbing.


shockabuku


Nov 29, 2011, 5:22 AM
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It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 5:45 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.


lena_chita
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Nov 29, 2011, 6:15 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

QUALITY is a very subjective thing.

I know it is hard, but do try to imagine yourself loving climbing, and only able to climb 5.10. You DON'T know how awesome those 5.12s are, and seeing all those 5-star-rated 5.13s and 5.14s is doing squat for you, even though you admire the videos of elite climbers making impossible moves look so easy on those 5-star rated 5.14s.

All you have he ability for is 5.10 routes and under. And all you have to compare those routes to are other routes of the same grade. I can guarantee that you will quickly decide that some of those 5.10 routes are awesome, and worth every one of the 5 stars, compared to some other 5.10s.

It is the truth that if you look in almost any guidebook for almost any area, you are likely to see more 5-star rated routes in 5.12 and up category than you will see 5-star rated rated routes in 5.10 and under category.

And the reason for that is because people doing the ratings are usually strong climbers. And you are more likely to rate highly a route that challenged you and made you think and work, than a route you walked up in your approach shoes while talking to your belayer and scratching ass with one hand. It's a bias.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 6:20 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

QUALITY is a very subjective thing.

I know it is hard, but do try to imagine yourself loving climbing, and only able to climb 5.10. You DON'T know how awesome those 5.12s are, and seeing all those 5-star-rated 5.13s and 5.14s is doing squat for you, even though you admire the videos of elite climbers making impossible moves look so easy on those 5-star rated 5.14s.

All you have he ability for is 5.10 routes and under. And all you have to compare those routes to are other routes of the same grade. I can guarantee that you will quickly decide that some of those 5.10 routes are awesome, and worth every one of the 5 stars, compared to some other 5.10s.

It is the truth that if you look in almost any guidebook for almost any area, you are likely to see more 5-star rated routes in 5.12 and up category than you will see 5-star rated rated routes in 5.10 and under category.

And the reason for that is because people doing the ratings are usually strong climbers. And you are more likely to rate highly a route that challenged you and made you think and work, than a route you walked up in your approach shoes while talking to your belayer and scratching ass with one hand. It's a bias.

You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.


lena_chita
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Nov 29, 2011, 7:04 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.

You really don't know anyone who has been climbing for a long time and is not a n00b, but is only climbing 5.10?

While it is true that n00bs are bad at judging quality, my point was that stronger climbers are guilty of a grade bias when judging quality.

Ask a 5.14 climber how many of those 5.11/5.12s that YOU rated 5 stars are 5 star routes in their opinion, compared to all the 5.13s and 5.14th that they have done, and their opinion would likely be "meh, not very many".

Really, look at your own log, you can see the bias there. Every 5.12 route you have ever climbed is 5 stars, really?


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 7:08 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.

You really don't know anyone who has been climbing for a long time and is not a n00b, but is only climbing 5.10?

While it is true that n00bs are bad at judging quality, my point was that stronger climbers are guilty of a grade bias when judging quality.

Ask a 5.14 climber how many of those 5.11/5.12s that YOU rated 5 stars are 5 star routes in their opinion, compared to all the 5.13s and 5.14th that they have done, and their opinion would likely be "meh, not very many".

Really, look at your own log, you can see the bias there. Every 5.12 route you have ever climbed is 5 stars, really?

I am very easily excited by rockclimbing, so I tend to give routes I like 5 stars. I like lots of sub 5.10 routes, but almost every sub 5.10 sport route is a pile.

Edit: I also do not ever get on routes that are not highly recommended. It is sort of embarrassing to be seen climbing lame routes. You can do it if you want.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 29, 2011, 7:13 AM)


fluffybynomeans


Nov 29, 2011, 8:45 AM
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I completely agree with you John.

The barrier to entry should be 5.10. I have never climbed a bolted sport route in my life. My very first trad route was a 5.8 in the Gunks 14 years ago. I am now climbing 5.7 trad in my old age and after a work injury. I have no qualms about any bolts being chopped. It gives you a false sense of security anyways.

If more routes were bolted we'd have so much wear and tear that more locations would be closed by park services. Crowds of punks would get out of hand and ruin it for most people. I say this because i've seen it in the 18 years that i have been climbing all over the US...lived in Boulder, Tahoe, the New, Seneca and North Conway. There are people that just do not respect the local climbing community and with more of them around it will cause enormous damage.

Anything bolted under 5.10 is for little girls, feel free to ad lib another noun.


petsfed


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Re: [fluffybynomeans] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
Crowds of punks would get out of hand and ruin it for most people. I say this because i've seen it in the 18 years that i have been climbing all over the US...lived in Boulder, Tahoe, the New, Seneca and North Conway. There are people that just do not respect the local climbing community and with more of them around it will cause enormous damage.

Because it was the crowds of punks that got bolting banned in the Boulder area, not a few local hard persons chopping each other's routes, defacing the cliffs, etc.

Right.

Also, never climbed a bolted sport route in your life? Jog on buddy. With climbing in particular, the value is often found through experience. So if there are a great mass of people finding value in one particular experience, and you're calling that experience invalid without ever having experienced it, I don't really have a polite response to that.

At least johnwesely has the experience to say that the overwhelming majority of easy sport routes aren't that good (a sentiment I agree with, even though I dispute the cognitive leap he takes from it).


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Nov 30, 2011, 8:21 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
At least johnwesely has the experience to say that the overwhelming majority of easy sport routes aren't that good (a sentiment I agree with, even though I dispute the cognitive leap he takes from it).

+1


Partner cracklover


Nov 30, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.

How is it that no-one noticed this gem?

Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll.

You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head.

GO


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Nov 30, 2011, 9:26 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too.

GO


shockabuku


Nov 30, 2011, 9:32 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too.

GO

Yeah, but then you need to bolt some 5.8s for the weaker guys to warm up on. And then someone will come along to work on the 5.8s so you'll need a 5.7 and so on. Unless you have top ropeable climbs for warm-ups.


johnwesely


Nov 30, 2011, 9:33 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.

How is it that no-one noticed this gem?

Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll.

You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head.

GO


My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors.


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Nov 30, 2011, 9:49 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too.

GO

Yeah, but then you need to bolt some 5.8s for the weaker guys to warm up on. And then someone will come along to work on the 5.8s so you'll need a 5.7 and so on. Unless you have top ropeable climbs for warm-ups.

No, the wall has whatever it has for good climbs. Most will have a range already, but for those walls that don't (for example, I've been places where all the decent climbs are 12b through 12d), it's nice to bolt a warmup or two. Your argument makes no sense - you don't need a warmup for the warmup.

GO


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Nov 30, 2011, 9:52 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
cracklover wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.

How is it that no-one noticed this gem?

Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll.

You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head.

GO


My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors.

I hope, for your own sake, you put bolts on that chosspile. Why do you think no-one climbed it before you? It's unprotectable garbage with one or two good moves. If you didn't bolt the sucker, sorry buddy, but prepare to crater.

GLaugh


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Nov 30, 2011, 9:57 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
cracklover wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.

How is it that no-one noticed this gem?

Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll.

You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head.

GO


My argument is all natural, ground up. It doesn't even have convenience anchors.

I hope, for your own sake, you put bolts on that chosspile. Why do you think no-one climbed it before you? It's unprotectable garbage with one or two good moves. If you didn't bolt the sucker, sorry buddy, but prepare to crater.

GLaugh

It actually takes really solid stacked rps.


johnwesely


Nov 30, 2011, 10:09 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Since you decided to ruin my fun in a way no one could miss, I actually have a heart warming story about the route in question.

One of my steady climbing partners used to have the worst lead head imaginable. He would take at every single bolt even out of habit. He had never redpointed a route despite having climbed for years. It was pretty strange to say the least. He also claimed he had no interest whatsoever in redpointing, which was an obvious cop out. One fateful day, we decided on climbing the route in question. It was a route we had both climbed multiple times before and a favorite of my friend. Despite it being short, lame all around, and a complete pain to get to, I agreed to go do the route on one condition, my partner would take some practice falls and make an honest attempt at redpointing the route. Surprisingly, he agreed.

I hung the draws, and my friend took his first practice fall, a tremendous three foot top rope whipper. Even this small act took five minutes of arguing. The next fall, around five feet, went a little easier, and after a few more, we were up to ten footers with nary a complaint. Still, on his redpoint attempt, he hesitated. He wanted to take so badly, but I would not let him. After much consternation, he successfully clipped the chains in an effort of will I doubt has been repeated.

Licheness sucks. There is no doubt about it, but it still holds a special place in my heart. After that day, my friends climbing habits were completely transformed, and he went on to red point 5.11. Whoever chopped it is an idiot.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 30, 2011, 10:10 AM)


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Nov 30, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
Since you decided to ruin my fun in a way no one could miss, I actually have a heart warming story about the route in question.

Nah, you were just wise enough to downclimb while you still had a chance. LOL. You'll note that at the same time I was poking fun, I was also engaging your argument (separate posts).

In reply to:
One of my steady climbing partners used to have the worst lead head imaginable. He would take at every single bolt even out of habit. He had never redpointed a route despite having climbed for years. It was pretty strange to say the least. He also claimed he had no interest whatsoever in redpointing, which was an obvious cop out. One fateful day, we decided on climbing the route in question. It was a route we had both climbed multiple times before and a favorite of my friend. Despite it being short, lame all around, and a complete pain to get to, I agreed to go do the route on one condition, my partner would take some practice falls and make an honest attempt at redpointing the route. Surprisingly, he agreed.

I hung the draws, and my friend took his first practice fall, a tremendous three foot top rope whipper. Even this small act took five minutes of arguing. The next fall, around five feet, went a little easier, and after a few more, we were up to ten footers with nary a complaint. Still, on his redpoint attempt, he hesitated. He wanted to take so badly, but I would not let him. After much consternation, he successfully clipped the chains in an effort of will I doubt has been repeated.

Licheness sucks. There is no doubt about it, but it still holds a special place in my heart. After that day, my friends climbing habits were completely transformed, and he went on to red point 5.11. Whoever chopped it is an idiot.

Good story.

Cheers,

GO


jae8908


Nov 30, 2011, 6:36 PM
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There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?


johnwesely


Nov 30, 2011, 6:43 PM
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jae8908 wrote:
There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?

I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism,


jae8908


Dec 1, 2011, 5:55 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
jae8908 wrote:
There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?

I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism,

Do you dislike open shuts?


johnwesely


Dec 1, 2011, 6:03 AM
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jae8908 wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
jae8908 wrote:
There weren't chains on lichenness. open shuts. are you sure you are thinking about the right route?

I am positive. Clipping the chains is a euphemism,

Do you dislike open shuts?

Yes, but I am not sure what that has to do with anything.


jae8908


Dec 1, 2011, 9:49 AM
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism


johnwesely


Dec 1, 2011, 10:02 AM
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jae8908 wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism

You learn something new everyday. Thank you for the clarification.


jae8908


Dec 1, 2011, 10:04 AM
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I wish that I could learn how to make links work...


johnwesely


Dec 1, 2011, 10:16 AM
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jae8908 wrote:
I wish that I could learn how to make links work...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/euphemism

Give a man a fish...


JohnCook


Dec 1, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!


IsayAutumn


Dec 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.


sungam


Dec 1, 2011, 11:07 AM
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JohnCook wrote:
Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!
I think all lower-offs are unpleasent AND offensive. If you are rock-climbing then the idea is to get to the TOP of the cliff. Top out or you are just jerking off. come onnnn, just 40 more posts....


shockabuku


Dec 1, 2011, 11:29 AM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?


shockabuku


Dec 1, 2011, 11:30 AM
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JohnCook wrote:
Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!

I have to say that the phrase "open shuts", being obviously paradoxical or oxymoronic, is somewhat offensive to me.


IsayAutumn


Dec 1, 2011, 11:32 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?


redlude97


Dec 1, 2011, 11:50 AM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?
5.8=natural climber? bwahahahahahaa


shockabuku


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IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?

No, I was simply taking advantage of a target of opportunity - you.

As I will again because your spelling is obscene.

And no, it doesn't take years to climb 5.10. Competent, though mostly young, athletes will do it in months. I've seen people start leading trad in a couple of weeks. Not 5.10 trad, but enough to know it isn't only the exceptional few who can do it.


johnwesely


Dec 1, 2011, 12:21 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?

This really is the gift that keeps on giving.


IsayAutumn


Dec 1, 2011, 12:52 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?

This really is the gift that keeps on giving.

You're welcome.


petsfed


Dec 1, 2011, 1:26 PM
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IsayAutumn wrote:
You're welcome.

Should be a PM


dudemanbu


Dec 1, 2011, 6:30 PM
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"years" to climb 5.10? My girlfriend was climbing 5.11 WITHIN a year. What planet do you live on?


IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?


guangzhou


Dec 1, 2011, 6:37 PM
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dudemanbu wrote:
"years" to climb 5.10? My girlfriend was climbing 5.11 WITHIN a year. What planet do you live on?


IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?


Guess it depend on how you define climbing 5.11. By my definition, someone why says they climb 5.11 need to be able to climb 5.11 consistently in various areas. From slab to cracks, to overhanging.

Me, I consider myself a solid 5.9 climber. Yes, I've onsigther routes harder, both sport and trad, but I can think of several 5.10's off the top of my head that I won't get on.


sungam


Dec 1, 2011, 7:02 PM
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dudemanbu wrote:
"years" to climb 5.10? My girlfriend was climbing 5.11 WITHIN a year. What planet do you live on?
Sure "climbing 5.11", I'm sure. More like top-rope-hanging featherbagged .10ds. comeon big 100!


notapplicable


Dec 1, 2011, 7:38 PM
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sungam wrote:
dudemanbu wrote:
"years" to climb 5.10? My girlfriend was climbing 5.11 WITHIN a year. What planet do you live on?
Sure "climbing 5.11", I'm sure. More like top-rope-hanging featherbagged .10ds. comeon big 100!

Seriously. I think the question is what planet is HE living on?

I've been climbing for 7-8 years and I'm pretty stoked to now be at a point where I can consistantly three hang 5.10c


caughtinside


Dec 1, 2011, 8:13 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

The best trolls always have the kernel of truth. And the truth is... sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful. I think I can think of 2 that I have done that I would consider quality.


climbingtrash


Dec 1, 2011, 10:53 PM
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sungam wrote:
JohnCook wrote:
Love the idea that open shuts are "unpleasant or offensive"!
I think all lower-offs are unpleasent AND offensive. If you are rock-climbing then the idea is to get to the TOP of the cliff. Top out or you are just jerking off. Sekrit hidden message>>>come onnnn, just 40 more posts....

J3rking oft on teh tops of cliffs sickens and offends meh!


climbingtrash


Dec 1, 2011, 10:54 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

AngelicZing!Angelic


Gmburns2000


Dec 2, 2011, 4:42 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

The best trolls always have the kernel of truth. And the truth is... sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful. I think I can think of 2 that I have done that I would consider quality.

Even as someone who sucks at climbing (redpointed one 5.11 and onsighted no harder than 10c), I agree. It's part of the reason why I don't like Rumney that much, for instance. I can't climb the good routes there and the routes I can climb get really boring really quickly (and when one has to put up with the riff-raff on top of that, well, eyes roll). I can say the same for Shelf, Red Rocks, the New, and Boulder Canyon.

I haven't been to a lot of sport crags, so I can't comment more, but with the exception of the New, the best routes I've climbed at all of those locations were 5.10 or harder. As for the New, I simply can't leave Flight of the Gumby off the list of sub-5.10 climbs that are good.


sp115


Dec 2, 2011, 4:48 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
IsayAutumn wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I didn't do it, but I don't think it is such a bad idea. Climbing would be much better off if all the sport routes, sans the classics, under 5.10 or maybe 5.11 were chopped.

This is, frankly, offensive. Who died and make you pope of this dump? I'm sure you started off leading 5.11 sport climbs, or leading gear on trad, but most people do not, idiot.

You are really an idiot, it makes my mind spot hurt. I refuse to even read the rest of this thread, as I'm sure you've embarrassed yourself more, dumby.

Your "mind spot"? What is that? The place where your mind should be (but apparently isn't)?

Are you supporting this garbage bag? To think that he would chop all bolts on below 5.10 or whatevers, that is obseen.

Climbers have to start somewhere. Even me, who everyone said was a natural, started at 5.8. It takes years to climb 5.10s, let alone do routes on trad. Where will people learn?

This really is the gift that keeps on giving.

You have truly out-done yourself with this one. A simple "modest proposal" and look what happens.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 3:52 PM
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It should only take one good Summer and Fall to learn 5.10's...leading is a whole other entity.


johnwesely


Dec 2, 2011, 3:54 PM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
It should only take one good Summer and Fall to learn 5.10's...leading is a whole other entity.

If you can toprope it, you can lead it.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 3:57 PM
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There are a heck of a lot of good sub 5.10 climbs out there. Take the Gunks' "High Exposure" - (5.6) for instance, as well as almost anything out in that area over 5.4. Most of everything is over hanging with a roof. Those are fun! I can list 100's that i've done under 5.10 that were fun.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 4:02 PM
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I agree John, but there is a learning curve. I just disagree with bolted routes and the attitude that hangs below them. I guess i'm just ol'school. Like i said, it's a false sense of security with bolts.

Why the heck is everyone into taking short cuts?


redlude97


Dec 2, 2011, 4:20 PM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
There are a heck of a lot of good sub 5.10 climbs out there. Take the Gunks' "High Exposure" - (5.6) for instance, as well as almost anything out in that area over 5.4. Most of everything is over hanging with a roof. Those are fun! I can list 100's that i've done under 5.10 that were fun.
You missed the part about 5.10(sport)


Gmburns2000


Dec 2, 2011, 4:23 PM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
There are a heck of a lot of good sub 5.10 climbs out there. Take the Gunks' "High Exposure" - (5.6) for instance, as well as almost anything out in that area over 5.4. Most of everything is over hanging with a roof. Those are fun! I can list 100's that i've done under 5.10 that were fun.

The discussion is about bolted routes, not routes.


donald949


Dec 2, 2011, 4:39 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
fluffybynomeans wrote:
It should only take one good Summer and Fall to learn 5.10's...leading is a whole other entity.

If you can toprope it, you can lead it.
And if you can TR it, you don't has 2 lead it!
Problem Solved.


6pacfershur


Dec 2, 2011, 4:52 PM
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IMHO, any time i hear someone say that "climbing this/that is boring", even some goofy TR, i think they have lost sight of the simple fact that its supposed to be fun........simple, mad fun


guangzhou


Dec 2, 2011, 5:02 PM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
I agree John, but there is a learning curve. I just disagree with bolted routes and the attitude that hangs below them. I guess i'm just ol'school. Like i said, it's a false sense of security with bolts.

Why the heck is everyone into taking short cuts?

Old school or not, you have to admit that bolted routes have opened a lot of new ground that was not and is not protectable with removable gear.

Many of them being multi-pitch are to tall for top-rope too. I'm primarily a trad climber too, but I also enjoy clipping bolts on sport routes.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 5:40 PM
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Been in it since almost the beginning dude. I know what was said.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 5:42 PM
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I know that guy. If you read more closely it's pertinent.


fluffybynomeans


Dec 2, 2011, 5:44 PM
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What if you are TR'ing it from the 8th pitch mate? Someone has to lead it.


johnwesely


Dec 2, 2011, 6:16 PM
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6pacfershur wrote:
IMHO, any time i hear someone say that "climbing this/that is boring", even some goofy TR, i think they have lost sight of the simple fact that its supposed to be fun........simple, mad fun

If its boring, its not fun.


climbingtrash


Dec 2, 2011, 6:28 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
IMHO, any time i hear someone say that "climbing this/that is boring", even some goofy TR, i think they have lost sight of the simple fact that its supposed to be fun........simple, mad fun

If its boring, its not fun.

Chorping bolts iz boring and knot fun. Guess awl those population problem roots are going to live to see another day.


climbingtrash


Dec 2, 2011, 6:28 PM
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But will this thread live to see another page?


6pacfershur


Dec 2, 2011, 10:21 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
IMHO, any time i hear someone say that "climbing this/that is boring", even some goofy TR, i think they have lost sight of the simple fact that its supposed to be fun........simple, mad fun

If its boring, its not fun.

"fun comes from the inside, it isnt about what we actually do" marge simpson....you can go back to your cube now


sungam


Dec 3, 2011, 1:56 AM
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6pacfershur wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
6pacfershur wrote:
IMHO, any time i hear someone say that "climbing this/that is boring", even some goofy TR, i think they have lost sight of the simple fact that its supposed to be fun........simple, mad fun

If its boring, its not fun.

"fun comes from the inside, it isnt about what we actually do" marge simpson....you can go back to your cube now
If it is boring, it is not fun.


petsfed


Dec 3, 2011, 9:15 AM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
Why the heck is everyone into taking short cuts?

Because not everyone climbs for the same reasons anymore? I've said this already, if your end goal is to focus on the movement without actively worrying about the risk, or the position, why should the path to get there involve both? Climbers haven't had a uniform notion of what their sport was about since the 70s. Insisting that we should is impressively, stupidly, optimistic about how easy it is to change people's minds.


donald949


Dec 5, 2011, 8:35 AM
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
What if you are TR'ing it from the 8th pitch mate? Someone has to lead it.
You're goning to need a bigger rope.


Claymsmith


Feb 17, 2012, 2:32 PM
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Damn, apparently I started a fire.

Anyway with the park being built I've been informed that people cutting bolts will be regarded as vandals. So basically the cops are going to get involved. I'm not sure what that means for bolting new routes or replacing bolts. Misty is missing one now, although I think it makes it more interesting.

Next: Chopping bolts is a dick move. People get cut and hurt on badly chopped bolts. Don't want to sport climb it? Dont! The bolts are not placed the same way trad gear is. Its not in your way. And please, please don't leave a bolt 80% cut through for someone to die on. Unsafe bolts are a different matter, cut them if you can.

Chopping routes is kinda of like a hipster murdering their favorite band so no one else will hear about them. If you're rocking 5.12 trad routes you're already badass. You don't need to degrade the experience for everyone else or be an elitest prick.

Sandrock is pretty massive, we can all get along. At the end of the day its about how much you enjoyed the climb, not what the grade was or how you did it. If you want to swing dicks about being a trad climber or the best boulder guy or whatever, then I really feel for you. You're clearly not getting any enjoyment out of the climb itself.

All that being said, if I come across someone chopping bolts I'm pretty much just going to take your picture and call the cops. I hope the $1000 min fine is worth it.

Edit: Note about unsafe bolts.


(This post was edited by Claymsmith on Feb 17, 2012, 2:34 PM)


jae8908


Feb 17, 2012, 10:03 PM
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Re: [Claymsmith] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Claymsmith wrote:
Damn, apparently I started a fire.

Anyway with the park being built I've been informed that people cutting bolts will be regarded as vandals. So basically the cops are going to get involved. I'm not sure what that means for bolting new routes or replacing bolts. Misty is missing one now, although I think it makes it more interesting.

Next: Chopping bolts is a dick move. People get cut and hurt on badly chopped bolts. Don't want to sport climb it? Dont! The bolts are not placed the same way trad gear is. Its not in your way. And please, please don't leave a bolt 80% cut through for someone to die on. Unsafe bolts are a different matter, cut them if you can.

Chopping routes is kinda of like a hipster murdering their favorite band so no one else will hear about them. If you're rocking 5.12 trad routes you're already badass. You don't need to degrade the experience for everyone else or be an elitest prick.

Sandrock is pretty massive, we can all get along. At the end of the day its about how much you enjoyed the climb, not what the grade was or how you did it. If you want to swing dicks about being a trad climber or the best boulder guy or whatever, then I really feel for you. You're clearly not getting any enjoyment out of the climb itself.

All that being said, if I come across someone chopping bolts I'm pretty much just going to take your picture and call the cops. I hope the $1000 min fine is worth it.

Edit: Note about unsafe bolts.
This is good for Sandrock. There has been lots of negative stuff go on there for years. Hopefully with the park and all it will straighten up a little.


jae8908


Jul 21, 2012, 2:04 PM
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Re: [Claymsmith] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Licheness has been rebolted thanks to Johnny Arms.


Claymsmith


Oct 12, 2012, 10:10 PM
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Re: [jae8908] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Awesome news. Very grateful. I was considering re-bolting it but while I *technically* know how to set bolts, I'm not comfortable enough to trust someone else's life to it.


tradmanclimbs


Oct 16, 2012, 8:09 PM
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Re: [Claymsmith] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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WOW! I never knew this before but aparently John Wesly is in fact one of the most stunningly arogant asswhipes on the internetCrazy
the Internet is a pretty darn big place so that is quite an accomplishment.

This is my take on bolted climbs. Not every place has an abundance of gear protected climbs. If everywhere was a Seneca, Lindvile, Gunks or indian creek etc I could understand the anti bolt attitude. the reality of life however is that some places have very few to zero decently protected climbs without bolts. For someone to come out and declare that those areas should not have any climbs under 5.10 is pretty fucking arogant INMOP


(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Oct 17, 2012, 4:19 AM)


Kartessa


Oct 20, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
WOW! I never knew this before but aparently John Wesly is in fact one of the most stunningly arogant asswhipes on the internetCrazy

It's spelled "Arrogant Asswipe"

But good on you for trying Wink


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