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sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 9:33 AM
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How did you learn technique/movement?
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Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?


Partner j_ung


Jan 11, 2012, 10:08 AM
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I didn't really begin to learn this stuff until well into my climbing life in the mid-90s, when I starting working at Sportrock in Alexandria, VA. Working under guys like Doug Cosby and Dan Hague and employing instructional programs based on Goddard and Neumann's work and later Douglas Hunter's, I started to really think about climbing movement pretty much constantly when at work. I also spent a shit ton of time watching better climbers and evaluating what they were doing. Bringing video into the mix helped immensely, as well, because for the first time, I could compare what I was doing to what they were doing.

I guess I was lucky. Not only did I have ample opportunity to study movement from masters, I was getting paid to do it as part of my job. In fact, the real epiphanies always hit while I was teaching movement classes. Having to communicate my theories (which were really just conglomerations of others' theories) to students became the cement that bound it all together for me. Most people won't ever have access to that, nor to 5-digit-square-foot climbing gyms and endless time to set problems, ponder techniques, rinse and repeat.

I have no freaking idea how other people learn this stuff. I certainly felt inadequate as a teacher most of the time—like the subject was so immense that it was impossible to convey any single aspect of it in a handful of 2-hour clinics.

I dunno. Maybe that means I never really learned any of it.


Gmburns2000


Jan 11, 2012, 10:25 AM
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sandeld wrote:
Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?

Honestly, I first learned technique when I was too tired to haul myself up a route. I climbed like a n00b until my arms and legs were too tired to climb like a n00b. Learning how to be efficient and technical was almost a mistake. I practically fell into it.

Also, a good friend of mine once taught me how to climb "smooth" and "static" with "quiet feet" by playing specific games that forced one to climb a certain way.

Finally route setting (yes, honest) helped me a lot, too, because it helped me to read routes better, and that helped me to think of different techniques and ways of moving.

I still suck, but I'm much better at sucking than I used to be.


lena_chita
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Jan 11, 2012, 10:36 AM
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I took a 2-day technique class at out gym sometime within the first year of climbing. I learned a LOT from it, and it was also helpful that the person who taught the technique class was also often around when I got stuck on specific routes/moves, and he was willing to offer advice and suggest small corrections/adjustments that usually worked.

I read the SCC book at some point during my second year of climbing, and realized that a lot of things in the technique class I took were about similar ideas and concepts. I found the book to be very helpful for me, because it went into more details and background that was not covered in the technique class.

I think that having background in dance/gymnasitcs helped me a fair bit, maybe because with that background you have a pretty good feeling for balance, weight transfer, and movement in general. So a lot of things I sort of picked up right away, without anyone teaching me, and then later in technique class, and reading the book, I realized that oh, when they are talking about movement initiation and balance transfer, it totally makes sense and explains the things that I picked up experimentally.

Other than that-- yes, of course, watching better climbers, and a lot of trial and error.

And the process is still ongoing, of course!


shimanilami


Jan 11, 2012, 11:08 AM
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I learned it on the internet, right here on RC.com.


Partner cracklover


Jan 11, 2012, 11:18 AM
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I learned by doing things I couldn't do until I could.

Occasionally I get helpful beta on a particular route from other folks, but.... I don't think I've ever learned a technique or a way to move my body from anything aside from the way my body moves on the rock.

GO


Diddii


Jan 11, 2012, 12:09 PM
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i've been climbing for 5months now, only indoor bouldering. current level is about v5. done about 70 problems, i keep track of every problem that i do and write down to keep track of progress.

I got a little help from people to start with how to use diffrent movements. Learnd alot by watching others and also by climbing with more experienced climbers.


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 12:54 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?

The Self-Coached Climber


sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 1:05 PM
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Lucky you!

I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.


surfstar


Jan 11, 2012, 1:18 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Lucky you!

I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.

Most of my reading is done during movements.


caughtinside


Jan 11, 2012, 2:01 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Lucky you!

I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.

That book comes with a helpful dvd.


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 2:06 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Lucky you!

I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.

So would I. That's why you study the DVD that comes with the book.

Jay


sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 2:11 PM
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Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?

Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 2:17 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?

Nope.

In reply to:
Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.

Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement.

If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay


sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 2:20 PM
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I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 2:58 PM
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sandeld wrote:
I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.

Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking.

Jay


sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 3:13 PM
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I merely asked *what* methods other people used. You were the one that started offering *how* people should. And since you opened that door, I'm responding. I never once asked for help...if you can read.

This isn't a right vs. wrong question, but I've found that you make a lot of your posts on here about that. And then as soon someone questions your response, you immediately attack them by saying, "oh yeah, well, I'm a better climber than you so just stfu and listen to me!"


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 3:25 PM
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sandeld wrote:
I merely asked *what* methods other people used. You were the one that started offering *how* people should. And since you opened that door, I'm responding. I never once asked for help...if you can read.

This isn't a right vs. wrong question, but I've found that you make a lot of your posts on here about that. And then as soon someone questions your response, you immediately attack them by saying, "oh yeah, well, I'm a better climber than you so just stfu and listen to me!"

Bullshit.


Partner cracklover


Jan 11, 2012, 3:29 PM
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jt512 wrote:
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

I don't buy that.

GO


sandeld


Jan 11, 2012, 3:45 PM
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jt512 wrote:

Bullshit.

Sure.


shockabuku


Jan 11, 2012, 7:29 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

I don't know, it depends on how good you are.

I've learned mostly from doing, some from reading, some from watching and or talking with other people. I have a hard time picking up the subtleties of movement just from watching. It's funny that I'm gaining experience at learning from watching other people as well as gaining experience at actually climbing from watching other people.


JoeNYC


Jan 11, 2012, 9:46 PM
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jt512 wrote:
sandeld wrote:
I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.

Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking.

Jay

Your "idea" sounds exactly like what you already did. Of course, instead of having your own answer you just stroked Douglas Hunter's...(cough) ego.

Also, I have no idea what you are saying. The grammar is all off, and as a result, its difficult to tell what you even mean. What is the verb "implement" doing in that last sentence (never mind, its also a fragment)? jeez

Do you care to explain what you mean without trying to sound like you just invested all your money into some SSC factory? If I understand you correctly, here is why I think you are mistaken:

I think the video in the SSC is piss even with the text, and most of the people who tell me to read that silly book are still clueless when it comes to doing anything remotely technical because climbing is not a game of right or wrong answers. Its about doing what works for you, ask Dave Graham or Matt Wilder. The engrams you need to develop to climb harder don't pattern themselves from what you read or what your coach tells you during your lesson. You've invented a false dichotomy, there are clearly more than two ways to get better at climbing and you have suspiciously left out the only one that actually builds technique.


JoeNYC


Jan 11, 2012, 9:55 PM
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Shit! I might have figured it out!

The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with because YOU act like professor rock climbing all day.

I take back my original comment.


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 10:25 PM
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sandeld wrote:
I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.

Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking.

Jay

I have no idea what you are saying. The grammar is all off, and as a result, its difficult to tell what you even mean. What is the verb "implement" doing in that last sentence (never mind, its also a fragment)? jeez

I think the video in the SSC is piss even with the text, and most of the people who tell me to read that silly book are still clueless when it comes to doing anything remotely technical because climbing is not a game of right or wrong answers. Its about doing what works for you, ask Dave Graham or Matt Wilder. The engrams you need to develop to climb harder don't pattern themselves from what you read or what your coach tells you during your lesson. You've invented a false dichotomy, there are clearly more than two ways to get better at climbing and you have suspiciously left out the only one that actually builds technique.

While I am open to suggestions on how to improve my grammar, I question how helpful suggestions would be from a compulsive comma splicer who doesn't know what an apostrophe is for.

Then you accuse of me falsely narrowing the number of ways to learn to climb well down to two (which you incorrectly term a "false dichotomy," only to narrow them down to one (which you "suspiciously" leave unspecified), yourself. How strange.

Jay


jt512


Jan 11, 2012, 11:13 PM
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JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports.

To become good at football, which is more effective: to play football with your friends or to join your high-school team and be professionally coached?

To excel at figure skating, which avenue would you pursue: go skating with your friends or take figure skating lessons from a professional?

To learn gymnastics: friends or coach?

What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

Swimming: How many olympic swimmers got to the Olympics via swimming with their friends versus being coached by professional swimming coahces?

Why is climbing any different?

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Jan 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

I don't buy that.

GO

Me neither. At least the way he worded it. It's a no-brainer that if you were to hire a professional coach it would make you a better climber. Also, from what I hear about SCC, it sounds like a well put together product. But, to suggest that those are the only two ways to climb well is utterly ridiculous. I am pretty sure that quite a few good climbers have never done either.

Also, there are plenty of good teachers that are not professional coaches.

Josh


camhead


Jan 12, 2012, 7:09 AM
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The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.


chadnsc


Jan 12, 2012, 7:18 AM
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camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.


Dat iz da cheatin' cammie.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 8:14 AM
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meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.


camhead


Jan 12, 2012, 8:18 AM
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surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.


chadnsc


Jan 12, 2012, 8:36 AM
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Hey now Eric, there's nothing wrong with mediocrity. Well as long as you don't try giving out advice on how to obtain it. Wink


JoeNYC


Jan 12, 2012, 8:58 AM
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In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit


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Jan 12, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
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So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.


unsunken


Jan 12, 2012, 3:41 PM
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Re: [j_ung] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.


jt512


Jan 12, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Re: [unsunken] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay


granite_grrl


Jan 12, 2012, 4:30 PM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports.

To become good at football, which is more effective: to play football with your friends or to join your high-school team and be professionally coached?

To excel at figure skating, which avenue would you pursue: go skating with your friends or take figure skating lessons from a professional?

To learn gymnastics: friends or coach?

What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

Swimming: How many olympic swimmers got to the Olympics via swimming with their friends versus being coached by professional swimming coahces?

Why is climbing any different?

Jay

The best thing to do is get out with another climber who is a thoughtful, educated climber. Most people are not likely to be able to hire a coach, but someone else that thinks about their climbing and has learned from something like the SCC isn't bad.


JoeNYC


Jan 12, 2012, 4:45 PM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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...and the point was missed.

Not every "brah" (whatever that is) responds to help from only either (1) a coach or (2)a book. Seriously, who would argue that they would? ...oh, right...

Sure, Wolfgang might've hypothetically gotten better with a coach, but he also might not have, there is no way to know! That was the point of showing the people who started with school, and then abandoned it to achieve great things, ugh, remember, different strokes for...?

I'm not even going to touch on the fact that that article is about as anecdotal as its possible to be, namely, its based on one person!

I feel like i just finished arguing with a six-year-old.


ghisino


Jan 12, 2012, 5:22 PM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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i'm (mostly) autodidact by necessity. Never had access to the right coaching at the right time at the right price...

my very general tips for learning movement skills:
1.motivation.
2.good motivation: you learn better when you enjoy trying hard, than when you only like success.
3.Stable self esteem and high frustration failure (being able to fail and try again many times without feeling bad about it)
4.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
5.focus
6.Careful observation.
7.Visualization
8.repetition
9.being open to change

good coaches should be able to help on all the points listed above. Coaching should be about creating the best conditions for learning first, and then about exercises, drills and technique.
But i've also heard of/seen bad coaches.

climbing specific tips.
-books can be useful sources of inspiration. just don't pick one and make it your bible: i'd say at least two of them, from different authors.
-bouldering (and bolt-to-bolt redpointing) can be a great movement lab, but teaches you to overpower everything.
-bouldering with good beta is even better.
-some leashed mileage at relatively easy grades often fixes the "overpower" defect related to bouldering
-the general vibe of your "climbing scene", as well as external factors (eg stress, your general mood, etc) can have a dramating impact on your ability to make physical and technical improvements.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 7:20 PM
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Re: [camhead] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.

How about just climbing more? That's one pretty damn good way to get better at technique and movement.
There are way too many good, fun climbs out there to do instead of being in a gym or hangboarding at home chasing some #.
I climb b/c its fun. I'll be sure to stay out of the training [work] forum so you guys can figure out what protein shake to chug to break into the elusive 12s.


granite_grrl


Jan 12, 2012, 7:24 PM
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Re: [surfstar] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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surfstar wrote:
camhead wrote:
surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.

How about just climbing more? That's one pretty damn good way to get better at technique and movement.
There are way too many good, fun climbs out there to do instead of being in a gym or hangboarding at home chasing some #.
I climb b/c its fun. I'll be sure to stay out of the training [work] forum so you guys can figure out what protein shake to chug to break into the elusive 12s.

Climbing doesn't have to be fun to be fun.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 7:26 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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You guys have fun watching dvds and reading books, my mediocre skillz are heading to Josh for a 4day weekend.


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

I don't buy that.

GO

I don't either.

Curt


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:28 PM
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Re: [camhead] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.

That's almost a perfect paraphrase of John Stannard. "The key to good footwork is incredibly strong fingers."

Curt


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:32 PM
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Curt


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 12:07 AM
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Re: [curt] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Yes, it does depend on who your friends are. I think that explains the Utah phenomenon, whereby the density of highly skilled climbers in the state is so high that practically everybody in the state, including the non-climbers, climbs 5.12.

However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 13, 2012, 12:08 AM)


camhead


Jan 13, 2012, 5:45 AM
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Re: [curt] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.

That's almost a perfect paraphrase of John Stannard. "The key to good footwork is incredibly strong fingers."

Curt

Well, I first heard you say it, heh!


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 6:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.


lena_chita
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Jan 13, 2012, 7:41 AM
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jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 8:13 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 8:43 AM
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sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

That wasn't advice.

How long until you realize that what people have been saying IS their personal experience?


Partner cracklover


Jan 13, 2012, 8:49 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Now I'm no rock-star, and never will be, but I've learned a shit-ton of good technique this way. For how weak I am (just ask Curt!) I climb pretty damn well.

Just sayin', the short shrift being given to really paying attention to what you're doing, and finding intelligent ways to experiment on-route, is notable.

GO


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 8:49 AM
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chadnsc wrote:
sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

That wasn't advice.

How long until you realize that what people have been saying IS their personal experience?

I included you since you're a fellow MN climber, and agree that there those of us here that get along just fine in the flat Midwest.

And, by him telling me to get a coach or the book is not his personal experience, hence my response.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 9:11 AM
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JT wasn't telling YOU to get a book or a coach. He was stating his opinion on the matter (aka how did he learn technique / movement).

You decided that JT was incorrect and decided to debate him on the accuracy of his option. Odd since you asked for his opinion to begin with.


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 9:16 AM
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He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."


granite_grrl


Jan 13, 2012, 9:27 AM
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sandeld wrote:
He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

It's funny 'cause it's true.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 9:28 AM
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sandeld wrote:
He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

I read JT's response to your OP as just his option.

It wasn't until you decided to start arguing that a coach or reading wasn't necessary did JT address you directly.

I still don't understand why you'd ask for how people learned technique then argue about how their response was incorrect.

Seems like a whole lot of drama over nothing.


JoeNYC


Jan 13, 2012, 9:52 AM
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Yes, it does depend on who your friends are....He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

and

lena_chita wrote:
Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.


Yes! Seeing a backstep or highstep on the SCC video, is not even in the same realm as doing an actual backstep on a route. Other people climbing climbing WITH you, on the other hand, CAN help you see this. It depends on who your friends are, but who would take advise from a dude who has poor technique. Even if you did, the FEELING of a good backstep is the learned part, not the lame technological understanding of it.

The fact that the book is written by professional coaches doesn't make it the bible of climbing technique. It sounds like Jay is saying is that the only way to get better people is to say "f off" to your buddies and read a book. Good Luck. Maybe thats how Jay got to climb 5.12, and if thats he case I'm not surprised. Little in that book can't be learned by watching a climbing movie or looking around on the internet.

I watch professional coaches teach people to do v4's all day, and let me tell you, it's not enlightening, they act more like friends motivating each other than a teacher showing a student calculus for the first time. Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

People should get the book if they want to do drop-knees on 5.8s all day, If you want to do one on a 5.13, then your best bet is to find the people who are already doing that. To be honest, though, I find that even v15 climbers pick the method that they like (based on body-type or whatever), not what might be the easiest. Captain Obvious also notices that the probability of grimy footwork is at much higher concentrations on v6 then it does on v10. Perhaps it is the 10,000 hour rule that matters most. The point is that the book has no traction on its own. Read it, study it, masturbate to the video all you want, but the chances that you will end up with better technique then the gym rat who is surrounded by it (and does it) all day is not good.


lena_chita
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Jan 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
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cracklover wrote:
I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I don't think this has anything to do with not listening to your body. No coach, or book, or buddy, would be able physically move your body through the moves. Nor would they be telling you everything step-by-step on every climb you would ever do. Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

This is why gymnasts review the video of their routines, for example -- because that way they can see the things that they aren't actually "feeling" properly when actually doing it. And this is where the coach really helps -- telling you that you need to tuck in more, that the arm needs to swing out more for counterbalance, the back leg on the leap is not coming up high enough, that the grip needs to be adjusted on the bar, etc. etc.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.


cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Coaching is not about giving "beta". Sure, that is what a lot of climbing buddies would do in real life... goes back to why an average climbing buddy is not the same as a good coach. (But some climbing buddies could be effective coaches)

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.


Partner j_ung


Jan 13, 2012, 10:25 AM
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jt512 wrote:

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

Don't ever do that again.


caughtinside


Jan 13, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Ok, I'll play.

I learned technique/movement by climbing with better climbers. Some of it was getting stymied on a move, and asking for beta. Someone of similar size with good movement skills can tell you how to do the move, and you learn what your body should be doing.

I also bought the SCC and watched the DVD. I never really got on the 'program' but I did start doing several of the exercises, and I did learn a few things about movement.

I would say that if I had gotten the SCC when I was a beginner it probably would have been much more helpful, I think I got it after I'd been climbing 6 or 7 years.


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
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sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach.

If by "so far," you're referring to the 5.10a in your (out-of-date *wink*) profile, then I'd have to disagree.

In reply to:
And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

You mean, before we believe it?

Jay


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
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I'm well past 10a's now and have been climbing less than a year, but no matter how I try to justify it here, I'm sure your almighty climbing authority will find some way to discredit it. So, sure, I'll just agree with you so you can feed your ego by "beating another noob on an Internet forum".


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 12:09 PM
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sandeld wrote:
I'm well past 10a's now and have been climbing less than a year, but no matter how I try to justify it here, I'm sure your almighty climbing authority will find some way to discredit it. So, sure, I'll just agree with you so you can feed your ego by "beating another noob on an Internet forum".

You know sandeld it takes a bigger man to just not respond to taunts and move on.

As an old friend of mine told me once "consider the source". I think both JT and you should take heed of that little bit of advice.


bearbreeder


Jan 13, 2012, 1:03 PM
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i never knew honnold read the SCC or had a coach ... most interesting ... or peter croft for that matter ...

id like to know if this bum reads the SCC or has a "coach" ... he's likely sending harder than anyone here

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/...d-progression-part-2

You may have caught on to my fascination with rapid progression through the climbing grades. Like most of us, I trickled up a grade or less with each year of climbing. When Jeremy Zachariash, an unknown to me, twenty-one year old claimed the second ascent of Jonathan Siegrist’s 5.14c testpiece New World Order, I raised a brow. After a little Google-stalking I found out that, not only was he young, but that he’d only been climbing for four years and just two years ago sent his first 5.13. Jeremy filled us in on what it takes to get good quick and why a diet of Heath Bar Blizzards doesn't help in the least.

......

DPM: What was your first climbing experience? How did you get into the sport?

Jeremy: I grew up climbing trees. When I was 17 years old, I wasn’t into school and dropped out and went to a ski resort and worked as a ski instructor full time. Once the season ended I was looking for something to do and tried climbing and haven’t skied since.

DPM: So you’ve only been climbing for 4 years? How did you get so good so fast? What has your progression looked like?

Jeremy: I started out in the gym, and a year into climbing in the gym I tried climbing outside. From then on I switched my focus to climbing outside and spent a lot of time at Little Si working through the grades and putting in time on all the routes. When that season ended I managed to get into the low 13’s. From that time on, I spent my time either on the road or working to go climb. I went on a 5 month trip with my little brother and a friend. Then I came back, worked, and went on a 2 week trip that turned into 7 months! (laughs) During those trips it was all about having fun and climbing and it still is. Not until the last two months did I start to really progress. I had been working a Route in Washington called Baby Fight and I was trying it a lot but then put my efforts on hold to start bolting routes. After a couple weeks of bolting, scrubbing and climbing my own routes, I went back to the crag and fired the route. I then turned my focus to a line called Blackest Magic (5.14b) which I had always looked at as something I wanted to do. I worked the route for three weeks straight and watched what I ate. When I sent the route and got the second ascent, it was a big step up from anything I had ever climbed and really helped my fitness. Since then, I have just been having fun battling conditions, moving project to project, and trying hard.

DPM: Do you train? If so, when did you start? What do you do? Do you have a coach? Have you ever competed?

Jeremy: Currently I have been climbing outside around 3 to 5 days a week. I haven’t climbed in a gym in over three months. All I do is watch what I eat and occasionally run. Sometime in the future I would like to train but up until now I have never really trained. I have only been to one competition a year or two ago and decided not to compete but it was fun to hang out.




Partner cracklover


Jan 13, 2012, 1:43 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.

lena_chita wrote:
Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.

In reply to:
BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.

In reply to:
I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO


onceahardman


Jan 13, 2012, 2:52 PM
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I have no doubt that SCC has helped many climb better. I don't hate the book. It's fine.

I also have no doubt that a professional coach who really knew his/her stuff would be a great help to a well-motivated climber.

But the idea that those are the ONLY two ways to improve is very easily falsified (and has been in this very thread), and refusing to see that can only be described as mendacious.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.


damienclimber


Jan 13, 2012, 3:32 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?


A.Are you asking these questions to enhance your personal trainer skills to include rockclimbers?

B. Or are you writing another STUPID book to put under your pillow at night,
( so the climbing fairy will give you great talent in the morning without any training?) Laugh


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 5:41 PM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.

lena_chita wrote:
Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.

In reply to:
BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.

In reply to:
I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay


JoeNYC


Jan 13, 2012, 8:18 PM
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jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 8:21 PM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

That's a closely held secret.

Jay


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 8:25 PM
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Re: [j_ung] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

Don't ever do that again.

That post was kind of high risk. I probably won't go down that road again.

Jay


ghisino


Jan 14, 2012, 5:24 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
This is why gymnasts review the video of their routines.

I don't like this example. Gymnastics are based on how the routine looks.
Which makes it appropriate to have an exact visual reference.

Climbing is based on getting on top of things through a series of problem-solving processes, most of which are being solved at an unconscious level.
Of course the visual reference is really helpful but the amount to which each individual should fine tune his own movement patterns (in order to get the best result) is much higher.
IMHO the idealistic objective of a climbing coach should not be to teach "perfect technique", but rather to help climbers develop a "perfect problem-solving feel" : technique and fitness are important as means, not as the ultimate goal...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jan 14, 2012, 5:28 AM)


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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

I'm probably as big a proponent of SCC as jt512 is, though maybe not as vocal on these boards. I can't speak for him, but Douglas doesn't pay me squat. The bum owes me some some serious couch space, as a matter of fact.


mr.tastycakes


Jan 15, 2012, 7:46 AM
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JoeNYC wrote:
Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.


JoeNYC


Jan 15, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Re: [mr.tastycakes] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.


Numbnuts, how about you consider three things I already said, and then decide if you even have any beef with my argument again:

The first point you probably missed me saying is that the book doesn't actually do the work; it is not the end-all-be-all discussion of climbing movement which takes you on a guaranteed journey to 5.14 enlightenment. There is nothing special about a book that provides a bunch of activities for finding your balance, or experimenting with your technique with your friends....et cetera.

Second, it might be nice to hear someone say it, and use some scientifico-physiologico jargon along the way, but I seriously believe serious people already do this on their own. Who doesn't experiment with beta on a boulder problem or watch other people climb? The book doesn't make you "feel" what works, it merely "tells" you to work on some concepts...great. In fact, perhaps the ONLY way to get better, is by actually putting in the work. (This is an exegesis of the claim i said where Jay or anyone makes the fallacy of denying the antecedent. An argument which the form: If P (You don't read the SCC) then Q (You will not get better), not P, therefore not Q is not logically founded.)

Third, I wouldn't be making all this fuss without having read it, still I should've known that the consensus on an internet forum about climbing would say "read a book to get better" or "hire a coach." I am only highlighting all this to point out the missing emphasis lost in the first few statements given to the the Original Poster between reading, coaching, and being better. The book isn't necessary or the best way to get better, do i seriously need to reiterate that? Hold on, ready? People learn differently....Holy Shit!

I'm done defending "getting better at climbing by climbing," whereby in "climbing" i understand trying with other people. Clearly, I'm preaching to the wrong choir on this website, mine must be at the crag by now. Finally, I was mainly cross with the guy who must've read "Either/Or" a bit to literally.

I regret even saying anything, but at least it killed 10 minutes on a rest day.


kaizen


Jan 15, 2012, 1:02 PM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
mr.tastycakes wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.


Numbnuts, how about you consider three things I already said, and then decide if you even have any beef with my argument again:

The first point you probably missed me saying is that the book doesn't actually do the work; it is not the end-all-be-all discussion of climbing movement which takes you on a guaranteed journey to 5.14 enlightenment. There is nothing special about a book that provides a bunch of activities for finding your balance, or experimenting with your technique with your friends....et cetera.

Second, it might be nice to hear someone say it, and use some scientifico-physiologico jargon along the way, but I seriously believe serious people already do this on their own. Who doesn't experiment with beta on a boulder problem or watch other people climb? The book doesn't make you "feel" what works, it merely "tells" you to work on some concepts...great. In fact, perhaps the ONLY way to get better, is by actually putting in the work. (This is an exegesis of the claim i said where Jay or anyone makes the fallacy of denying the antecedent. An argument which the form: If P (You don't read the SCC) then Q (You will not get better), not P, therefore not Q is not logically founded.)

Third, I wouldn't be making all this fuss without having read it, still I should've known that the consensus on an internet forum about climbing would say "read a book to get better" or "hire a coach." I am only highlighting all this to point out the missing emphasis lost in the first few statements given to the the Original Poster between reading, coaching, and being better. The book isn't necessary or the best way to get better, do i seriously need to reiterate that? Hold on, ready? People learn differently....Holy Shit!

I'm done defending "getting better at climbing by climbing," whereby in "climbing" i understand trying with other people. Clearly, I'm preaching to the wrong choir on this website, mine must be at the crag by now. Finally, I was mainly cross with the guy who must've read "Either/Or" a bit to literally.

I regret even saying anything, but at least it killed 10 minutes on a rest day.

you're obnoxious


onceahardman


Jan 15, 2012, 4:36 PM
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Joe, don't worry. You have done a commendable job wading through the morass of strawmen.

It cracks me up when people climbing 3 whole number grades below the current world standard think the best advice is found in a book which helped them advance from 5.10a to 5.12 (new-school).

I doubt the real, world class .14d+ and up climbers don't read or train according to SCC guidelines.

In short, It's a fine book. But the BEST climbers don't use it.


caughtinside


Jan 15, 2012, 5:03 PM
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onceahardman wrote:


In short, It's a fine book. But the BEST climbers don't use it.

Too bad the BEST climbers are not the target audience of the book.


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Jan 16, 2012, 10:03 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
Joe, don't worry. You have done a commendable job wading through the morass of strawmen.

It cracks me up when people climbing 3 whole number grades below the current world standard think the best advice is found in a book which helped them advance from 5.10a to 5.12 (new-school).

I doubt the real, world class .14d+ and up climbers don't read or train according to SCC guidelines.

In short, It's a fine book. But the BEST climbers don't use it.

That's an assumption that may or may not be true. And even if it is, the contention that appears to be at issue now is that the SCC and a personal coach are the two best ways to get good.

I'll argue that many of the top climbers in the world right now have had such coaches at some point or another in their careers. And of those coaches, I'm betting the majority have used SCC at least in part to formulate their curricula.


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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.

lena_chita wrote:
Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.

In reply to:
BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.

In reply to:
I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

Well, I am interested in trad climbing, but you've created a false dichotomy. This idea that trad climbers don't care about efficient movement, while sport climbers do, is laughable. Anyway, it's a meaningless distinction, since I personally climb more in the gym and on sport routes than I do trad, especially in the winter. And I don't personally know any other strong trad climbers who aren't also into sport climbing - as training if nothing else.

Anyway, yes, technique is indeed all about movement, balance, and to a lesser extent, how you use different kinds of holds. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think movement is unimportant.

As for what I mean by a "transition" - it is not how to get from one hand jam to the next. It is how to efficiently move from one distinct set of motions that has a natural flow (a sequence) into another. This is often where I see a lot of decent climbers (myself included) use up a ton of energy needlessly. On routes that are hard for me, it takes a lot of thought, and sometimes a clever solution, to set myself up to transition into the next sequence quickly and gracefully, and it often makes the difference between whether I have the energy left to successfully execute the next sequence or not.

I think that you and I probably have very similar ideas about technique, actually. Where we diverge is in our idea of how to get it. I maintain that more attention to internal processes - such as refinement of your own feedback loops, development of better body awareness, and better problem-solving and creativity in dealing with new and unknown situations will pay huge dividends for the average climber. Whereas you seem to be suggesting that such internal processes will never allow a climber to develop decent technique, and it is only through external processes that good movement skills can be taught.

As for SCC being of great benefit to me - sadly, I have not found it so. I will admit that the fault may be mine, as I only made it about halfway through the book. I found most of the expository stuff to be obvious, while some was misleading, and the exercises (again, only at the beginning of the book) to be of little benefit. Perhaps if I could have slogged through to the end, I would've found something of more benefit. I've heard that the training techniques around pyramids and such are great - and I may incorporate them into my own workouts someday.

Don't take this the wrong way - I am not a detractor of the book. I've no doubt that for many people it has been an eye-opener, and a huge benefit. I just don't think it's the only way to develop technique.

GO


younggun


Jan 16, 2012, 12:06 PM
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The best way to learn technique and movement is to climb a lot. In every move, there are numerous contractions and balances of different muscles, that can only be learned by feel which results in proper body positions and good technique over time. What we are really talking about is being efficient. Reading a book and having a coach can help but neither will teach you movement skills that you can only get from climbing by feel.

The SCS is a decent book but by no means the end all be all of climbing books. I disagree with plenty of information and advise in that book as well as other books. There is no gold standard or accepted validated way of training in climbing, because the sport is still new.

Many super high end climbers in the USA do not have coaches and have only had coaches when they were in their youth competing. If you saw the top 5 youth coaching programs in the USA, 30% of what they all do would be the same, 70% would be different. In gymnastics, basketball and other main stream sports, 80% of those programs would be identical.

The bottom line is that other sports have it figured out and have good coaching, climbing does not. Nobody has found the holly grail. That is why you should really just climb more to get better, read the books later and get a coach to help you for that last 5% improvement.


bearbreeder


Jan 16, 2012, 12:45 PM
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odd that all those strong foreign climbers who speak and read minimal engrish can climb better than many here

maybe they used google translator on the SCC ...

or maybe they all have coaches... that must be it

im still wondering if mr honnold or croft have coaches or read the SCC ... i dont know about you but when you solo astroman and the rostrum in a day, half dome, and moonlight buttress ... plus can send cobra crack and ambrosia ... id think that yr climbing is pretty efficient
Tongue


onceahardman


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j_ung wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
Joe, don't worry. You have done a commendable job wading through the morass of strawmen.

It cracks me up when people climbing 3 whole number grades below the current world standard think the best advice is found in a book which helped them advance from 5.10a to 5.12 (new-school).

I doubt the real, world class .14d+ and up climbers don't read or train according to SCC guidelines.

In short, It's a fine book. But the BEST climbers don't use it.

That's an assumption that may or may not be true. And even if it is, the contention that appears to be at issue now is that the SCC and a personal coach are the two best ways to get good.

I'll argue that many of the top climbers in the world right now have had such coaches at some point or another in their careers. And of those coaches, I'm betting the majority have used SCC at least in part to formulate their curricula.

That's true. I certainly have no data supporting the idea of truly top-tier climbers not using SCC. As for what "you'll argue", I doubt you do either, but I'm willing to be corrected.

Let me tell you how I arrived at my opinion.

How many American climbers have climbed a consensus 5.15 (9a+)? Five? Ten?

How many French? Spanish? German? Italian?

Dozens? A hundred? Two hundred?

I have my doubts that Paxti Usobiaga has read SCC, or that he has a coach who follows that book. Yet he has onsighted at least two routes harder than 5.14c, and has climbed 9a+ second try.

Like I said, I have no problems with SCC, it is fine, and I know it has helped many to improve. But the popularity of that book seems to have spawned a generation of True Believers, who believe that only in The Book is found The Path to Real Enlightenment. Without The Book, improvement is not possible.

My opinion is, that position is easily falsified.


camhead


Jan 16, 2012, 2:25 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
odd that all those strong foreign climbers who speak and read minimal engrish can climb better than many here

maybe they used google translator on the SCC ...

or maybe they all have coaches... that must be it

im still wondering if mr honnold or croft have coaches or read the SCC ... i dont know about you but when you solo astroman and the rostrum in a day, half dome, and moonlight buttress ... plus can send cobra crack and ambrosia ... id think that yr climbing is pretty efficient
Tongue

Uhhh... since most of your examples are citing Honnold, not Croft, I'm going to call you out here. Honnold is very much a product of gym/coached/comp climbing culture. The reason that he is so good is that he's one of the fairly common-nowdays v-dubbledigits gym cockroaches who was steered ("coached?") toward more traditional disciplines, and thus applied his mutant plastic skills to real rock and real headgames.

I don't know by whom, or how structured it was, but trust me, Alex was "coached" just the same way that any other exceptional youth climber in the gyms these days has been.


bearbreeder


Jan 16, 2012, 2:34 PM
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camhead wrote:
Uhhh... since most of your examples are citing Honnold, not Croft, I'm going to call you out here. Honnold is very much a product of gym/coached/comp climbing culture. The reason that he is so good is that he's one of the fairly common-nowdays v-dubbledigits gym cockroaches who was steered ("coached?") toward more traditional disciplines, and thus applied his mutant plastic skills to real rock and real headgames.

I don't know by whom, or how structured it was, but trust me, Alex was "coached" just the same way that any other exceptional youth climber in the gyms these days has been.

going to the climbing gym means one is coached????

guess that every gym gumbie is coached then ... and has read the SCC Wink

name me one single "coached" or SCC climber (whatever that is) who can solo moolight buttress or half dome ... or even a single other "coached in gym" climber ... i bet he didnt get his "efficiency" from those "gym" sources, if it was then we should see a whole whack of gym gumbies soloing el cap

mr croft was one of the best climbers of his generation and likely still pulls harder trad than anyone here ... guess he aint that efficient or skilled ...

was alexander huber coached ... he climbs harder than anyone else here ...

i dont believe dean potter was ever coached .... maybe he has reads the SCC religiously? ... perhaps RC "experts" will tell us hes not a good climber ... despite climbing harder and bolder than most people here ...
Tongue

there is nothing wrong with coaches or particular books .. but to say they are the only way, or perhaps even the best way to progress belies the fact that alot of the top climbers of their generation likely have never used them

they do however have on thing in common ... they climb ... alot ... a f-ckag lot ..and they climb hard ... effing hard


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 16, 2012, 2:45 PM)


camhead


Jan 16, 2012, 3:12 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:

going to the climbing gym means one is coached????

I never said that. You are pulling names out of your ass, to somehow support your claim that coaching is not necessary. Croft, Potter, blablabla.

Here are some names for you: Matt Segal, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Lindner. All of them are products of heavily coached, structured training. And that's just the trad climbers, I'm not going to list all the sportos or boulderers.

You mentioned Euros climbing so much better than Americans; a lot of that is because they have much more structured coaching and training regimes in their climbing culture.

Furthermore, since climbing, even comp climbing, is nowhere near as structured or organized as any other sport, you need to realize that when someone says "it is important to be coached/have a coach," it does not mean "have a coach the same way a baseball player or gymnast does."

Finally, don't get me wrong. I don't agree with jt512 that the golden combo of a Coach and the SCC is the only way to hone your technique. If JT really knew what he was talking about in terms of training and conditioning, he would not be hanging out in this small pool; he'd be getting his ass handed to him in training threads on mountainproject or 8a.nu. I just have a problem with people citing the names of exceptional people as evidence that everyday climbers should simply "climb more" and somehow they'll get better.


bearbreeder


Jan 16, 2012, 3:43 PM
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camhead wrote:
everyday climbers should simply "climb more" and somehow they'll get better.


they should get out and climb more and harder...

one of my partners has been climbing for ~3 years, rarely goes into the gym, doesnt have a coach, and doesnt have SCC ... and hes done up to 5.12+ last year ... he just climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out

climbing is what you make out of it ... but the basic fact is that if you dont go and climb often and hard, it is quite difficult to "get better"

the above examples were given to show that you dont NEED to have a coach or SCC to progress

but you DO need to go out and climb ... preferably the old fashion way, with someone better than you ... at least you KNOW they can do the climb


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 16, 2012, 3:51 PM)


camhead


Jan 16, 2012, 3:59 PM
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bearbreeder wrote:
they should get out and climb more and harder...

one of my partners has been climbing for ~3 years, rarely goes into the gym, doesnt have a coach, and doesnt have SCC ... and hes done up to 5.12+ last year ... he just climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out

climbing is what you make out of it ... but the basic fact is that if you dont go and climb often and hard, it is quite difficult to "get better"

the above examples were given to show that you dont NEED to have a coach or SCC to progress

but you DO need to go out and climb ... preferably the old fashion way, with someone better than you ... at least you KNOW they can do the climb

Again, you are using anecdotes ("I have a friend who climbs 12+"...) to support your point. This is useless. For every person who excels naturally, there are a dozen who could do better with structured training.

And why are you diametrically opposing coaching/structured training with climbing outside more? Someone has only 28 hours (four climbing days) a month to climb outside. Who's going to do better, someone who "just climbs" or someone who is training regularly, sets goals, and gets coached so that those 28 hours really count?


bearbreeder


Jan 16, 2012, 4:07 PM
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camhead wrote:
[

Again, you are using anecdotes ("I have a friend who climbs 12+"...) to support your point. This is useless. For every person who excels naturally, there are a dozen who could do better with structured training.

And why are you diametrically opposing coaching/structured training with climbing outside more? Someone has only 28 hours (four climbing days) a month to climb outside. Who's going to do better, someone who "just climbs" or someone who is training regularly, sets goals, and gets coached so that those 28 hours really count?

im not opposed to it at all ... im opposed to anyone saying coaching or the SCC is the ONLY way ... there is enough evidence to show that it is not ...

a person does not need a coach or the SCC to get goals, or "train" himself, etc ... many do that on their own ... what they DO need IMO is to climb inside or outside ... and good partners, preferably better ones, to hep them with their mistakes ...

the best "coach" who aint a coach that you can get is a partner to climb with that climbs better than you and has done the style of climbing and routes you want to do ... that IMO will help you more than any coaching lesson or book

and yes i do own a copy of the SCC


drivel


Jan 16, 2012, 4:13 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?


Joined a climbing gym as a teenager over a decade ago, was coached mostly by being one of the only teenagers at a gym full of college kids and weekend warriors. My Sr. year, was coached somewhat more formally by one of the middle-aged climbers who was willing to call himself "coach" and escort me to competitions, since my parents would not go.

Spent nearly every weekend in college driving to climb outside, and was mentored by a series of more experienced sport climbers. Redpointed my first 5.12's. Hooked up with a trad climber who taught me the basics of gear and multipitch. Terrible lover, but fairly good climbing partner.

Eventually hooked up with my life partner, who is a stronger climber than me. He's been a steadfast and supportive climbing partner, and we've built a circle of friends (both at our local bouldering co-op and imaginary internet g3rks) who are all both strong and motivated.

I have also cross-trained, on and off, with solo and partnered jazz dance, which I actually think helps quite a lot.


But if I were to distill it down to one thing, I'd say friends who are near your level who are strongly motivated. Like coaches, but less transactional.


None of that means shit without personal motivation to improve, though. If you don't care about getting better, if you only care about "having fun," then you won't get better, because you won't do what needs to be done, whether it's training more often, or in a highly specific way, or whatever. I don't climb as hard as a lot of my friends, because I'm not motivated to train as meticulously. I think it's boring and I get ADD. So I train by "just climbing," and I don't send as hard.


olderic


Jan 16, 2012, 6:43 PM
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camhead wrote:
Here are some names for you: Matt Segal, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Lindner. All of them are products of heavily coached, structured training. And that's just the trad climbers, I'm not going to list all the sportos or boulderers.
.

I think you are off base with 2 out of your 4 examples. The primary influence of Tommy and Chris was their fathers. I don't think there was much formal coaching but there was a hell of a lot of climbing. Another example that has been mentioned as Alex H. He certainly went through all the JCCA (now USAClimbing) stuff although I don't know much formal coaching was involved. I do know that my son - who never had a second of formal coaching - consistently beat him at nationals.

Nothing wrong with coaching - the Euros who are more advanced then us - in just about types of climbing (except maybe ethics) embrace coaching more then we do, If that is what it takes to motivate someone = great. But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

as far as the SCC I think it's pretty lightweight - basically recycled a lot of stuff from other sports and sexed it up with all that Warrior's Way crap. But if that is what motivates you so be it.


drivel


Jan 16, 2012, 6:54 PM
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olderic wrote:
camhead wrote:
Here are some names for you: Matt Segal, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Lindner. All of them are products of heavily coached, structured training. And that's just the trad climbers, I'm not going to list all the sportos or boulderers.
.

I think you are off base with 2 out of your 4 examples. The primary influence of Tommy and Chris was their fathers. I don't think there was much formal coaching but there was a hell of a lot of climbing.
...snip...

if having a father that takes you climbing every weekend doesn't count as coaching, I dunno what does.


drivel


Jan 16, 2012, 6:56 PM
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drivel wrote:
olderic wrote:
camhead wrote:
Here are some names for you: Matt Segal, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Lindner. All of them are products of heavily coached, structured training. And that's just the trad climbers, I'm not going to list all the sportos or boulderers.
.

I think you are off base with 2 out of your 4 examples. The primary influence of Tommy and Chris was their fathers. I don't think there was much formal coaching but there was a hell of a lot of climbing.
...snip...

if having a father that takes you climbing every weekend doesn't count as coaching, I dunno what does.

i mean really. lol.


camhead


Jan 16, 2012, 6:59 PM
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olderic wrote:
camhead wrote:
Here are some names for you: Matt Segal, Tommy Caldwell, Beth Rodden, Chris Lindner. All of them are products of heavily coached, structured training. And that's just the trad climbers, I'm not going to list all the sportos or boulderers.
.

I think you are off base with 2 out of your 4 examples. The primary influence of Tommy and Chris was their fathers. I don't think there was much formal coaching but there was a hell of a lot of climbing. Another example that has been mentioned as Alex H. He certainly went through all the JCCA (now USAClimbing) stuff although I don't know much formal coaching was involved. I do know that my son - who never had a second of formal coaching - consistently beat him at nationals.

Nothing wrong with coaching - the Euros who are more advanced then us - in just about types of climbing (except maybe ethics) embrace coaching more then we do, If that is what it takes to motivate someone = great. But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

as far as the SCC I think it's pretty lightweight - basically recycled a lot of stuff from other sports and sexed it up with all that Warrior's Way crap. But if that is what motivates you so be it.

Uhhh... are you serious? if you don't think that TC and CL were coached by their fathers, then I have nothing else to say to you.

I agree with you on the SCC, though.


jt512


Jan 16, 2012, 7:05 PM
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olderic wrote:
Nothing wrong with coaching - the Euros who are more advanced then us - in just about types of climbing (except maybe ethics) embrace coaching more then we do, If that is what it takes to motivate someone = great. But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

Reminds me of that quote by Richard Feynman about quantum mechanics: "Anyone who says that they understand quantum mechanics does not understand quantum mechanics."

Jay


olderic


Jan 16, 2012, 7:15 PM
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camhead wrote:
[
Uhhh... are you serious? if you don't think that TC and CL were coached by their fathers, then I have nothing else to say to you.

Define coaching.


curt


Jan 16, 2012, 7:33 PM
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olderic wrote:
camhead wrote:
Uhhh... are you serious? if you don't think that TC and CL were coached by their fathers, then I have nothing else to say to you.

Define coaching.

Well, anybody who was actually around and saw the two interact would know that Tom drove Chris pretty hard--maybe too hard, except that in retrospect he seems to have benefitted from the "coaching." I think it takes fairly intense coaching, by the way, to get a 4 year-old to lead a 5.10 trad climb on gear.

I have no personal knowledge of TC, but to imply that CL was not coached intensely by his father is completely wacko.

Curt


JoeNYC


Jan 16, 2012, 11:25 PM
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jt512 wrote:
olderic wrote:
Nothing wrong with coaching - the Euros who are more advanced then us - in just about types of climbing (except maybe ethics) embrace coaching more then we do, If that is what it takes to motivate someone = great. But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

Reminds me of that quote by Richard Feynman about quantum mechanics: "Anyone who says that they understand quantum mechanics does not understand quantum mechanics."

Jay

Of all things, THIS reminds you of quantum mechanics? Although, the way people are talking about it...i kinda get it.

To be fair however, and to resist the proliferation of anecdotal statements being made, Feynman wrote:
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

Neils Bohr wrote:
"Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory does not understand it."

Ice Cube wrote:
"Check yo self before you wreck yo self."


In any event, because i cant help it, I don't think anything is going to get proven here except that movement and technique in climbing are complicated and learned on the rock. Reading about it helps some people, and getting coached helps others, but EVERYBODY figures it out when they are physically climbing, by putting in the hours trying to get better. Claiming that there is a best or better way to get good clearly is impossible right now because we have no evidence.

I think that the people who have the most refined technique are mostly the ones that care about it the most. People who say shit like "micro-beta" and can't stop yammering about how much better a move felt with the "blah,blah, blah", clearly want to improve, and likely will improve, whether or not the did the drills their coaches prescribed or followed a chart from a book. If you REALLY want to get better technique, but can't figure out when to flag or post-up or whatever, try reading a book, but i still doubt that it will help. (A coach might help, i'll agree with that, but so might any good climber).


jt512


Jan 16, 2012, 11:48 PM
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JoeNYC wrote:
Claiming that there is a best or better way to get good clearly is impossible right now because we have no evidence.

I think that the people who have the most refined technique are mostly the ones that care about it the most.

That's mostly one of the most ironic juxtapositions I've mostly ever seen.

Jay


JoeNYC


Jan 17, 2012, 6:07 AM
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Claiming that there is a best or better way to get good clearly is impossible right now because we have no evidence.

I think that the people who have the most refined technique are mostly the ones that care about it the most.

That's mostly one of the most ironic juxtapositions I've mostly ever seen.

Jay



I said "I think", was that too difficult to understand? Should I have said "I believe" instead? You certainty should've...

This claim, "If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber" has a very different form than one that begins with "I think". You lost this "argument" a long time ago, It's kinda sad that you are still trying.


olderic


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curt wrote:

Well, anybody who was actually around and saw the two interact would know that Tom drove Chris pretty hard--maybe too hard, except that in retrospect he seems to have benefitted from the "coaching." I think it takes fairly intense coaching, by the way, to get a 4 year-old to lead a 5.10 trad climb on gear.

I have no personal knowledge of TC, but to imply that CL was not coached intensely by his father is completely wacko.

Curt

Oh I was around all right. Sane Diego Bouldering contest in the early 90's. Various PBC's after that. I saw all the interactions. Surprising that CL is still at it although there was a prolonged break. Maybe you can make an Andre Agassiz analogy.

I think in the context of this thread a coach is someone who has some credibility - someone who has some knowledge of the mechanics of the sport and can give useful instruction on specific ways to improve. It's also someone who understands the macro and micro cycles of training, endurance vs power how to peak for an event and so on. Not just some one with a "give me more" mentality (unless you are coaching the O line...)

TC's Dad was (is) a guide and just took TC along on some pretty ambitious adventures from a pretty young age. No doubt in my mind which is better for the kid.


camhead


Jan 17, 2012, 7:18 AM
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olderic wrote:
I think in the context of this thread a coach is someone who has some credibility - someone who has some knowledge of the mechanics of the sport and can give useful instruction on specific ways to improve. It's also someone who understands the macro and micro cycles of training, endurance vs power how to peak for an event and so on. Not just some one with a "give me more" mentality (unless you are coaching the O line...)

Ok, don't know about Tom Lindner, but Caldwell's dad was not just a guide, but also a former Mr. Colorado bodybuilder. I would say that he fits your criteria of a "coach."


olderic


Jan 17, 2012, 7:28 AM
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camhead wrote:
Ok, don't know about Tom Lindner, but Caldwell's dad was not just a guide, but also a former Mr. Colorado bodybuilder. I would say that he fits your criteria of a "coach."

Yeah you ate right about that. He had competition chops. But - surely you aren't assuming that because someone is good at doing something that they are good or qualifed at instructing/teaching/coaching it? "If you can't do, teach". Especially something that isn't even the same. But I'm sure MC could have given TC advise about preparing for a comp - except that TC never really went far along that path.

Any parent will attempt to give his kids advice - that's normal. Doesn't make him a "coach".


curt


Jan 17, 2012, 8:55 AM
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olderic wrote:
curt wrote:

Well, anybody who was actually around and saw the two interact would know that Tom drove Chris pretty hard--maybe too hard, except that in retrospect he seems to have benefitted from the "coaching." I think it takes fairly intense coaching, by the way, to get a 4 year-old to lead a 5.10 trad climb on gear.

I have no personal knowledge of TC, but to imply that CL was not coached intensely by his father is completely wacko.

Curt

Oh I was around all right. Sane Diego Bouldering contest in the early 90's. Various PBC's after that. I saw all the interactions. Surprising that CL is still at it although there was a prolonged break. Maybe you can make an Andre Agassiz analogy.

I think in the context of this thread a coach is someone who has some credibility - someone who has some knowledge of the mechanics of the sport and can give useful instruction on specific ways to improve. It's also someone who understands the macro and micro cycles of training, endurance vs power how to peak for an event and so on. Not just some one with a "give me more" mentality (unless you are coaching the O line...)

TC's Dad was (is) a guide and just took TC along on some pretty ambitious adventures from a pretty young age.
No doubt in my mind which is better for the kid.

How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt


jt512


Jan 17, 2012, 8:58 AM
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Claiming that there is a best or better way to get good clearly is impossible right now because we have no evidence.

I think that the people who have the most refined technique are mostly the ones that care about it the most.

That's mostly one of the most ironic juxtapositions I've mostly ever seen.

Jay

I said "I think", was that too difficult to understand? Should I have said "I believe" instead?

You think there's no evidence, so you have an opinion based on no evidence. I get it.

Jay


camhead


Jan 17, 2012, 9:02 AM
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curt wrote:
olderic wrote:
curt wrote:

Well, anybody who was actually around and saw the two interact would know that Tom drove Chris pretty hard--maybe too hard, except that in retrospect he seems to have benefitted from the "coaching." I think it takes fairly intense coaching, by the way, to get a 4 year-old to lead a 5.10 trad climb on gear.

I have no personal knowledge of TC, but to imply that CL was not coached intensely by his father is completely wacko.

Curt

Oh I was around all right. Sane Diego Bouldering contest in the early 90's. Various PBC's after that. I saw all the interactions. Surprising that CL is still at it although there was a prolonged break. Maybe you can make an Andre Agassiz analogy.

I think in the context of this thread a coach is someone who has some credibility - someone who has some knowledge of the mechanics of the sport and can give useful instruction on specific ways to improve. It's also someone who understands the macro and micro cycles of training, endurance vs power how to peak for an event and so on. Not just some one with a "give me more" mentality (unless you are coaching the O line...)

TC's Dad was (is) a guide and just took TC along on some pretty ambitious adventures from a pretty young age.
No doubt in my mind which is better for the kid.

How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt

Heh, I did not know that. To review, I'm pretty sure that the evidence we've presented regarding Caldwell, Lindner, and Eric Hörst for that matter (though I haven't brought him up) is pretty convincing that they "coached" their kids.

If olderic is not buying it, that is his problem, and his own irrational ideological baggage, which was cemented into place well before the arguments in this forum were laid out.

I'm done.


jt512


Jan 17, 2012, 9:16 AM
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curt wrote:
olderic wrote:
curt wrote:

Well, anybody who was actually around and saw the two interact would know that Tom drove Chris pretty hard--maybe too hard, except that in retrospect he seems to have benefitted from the "coaching." I think it takes fairly intense coaching, by the way, to get a 4 year-old to lead a 5.10 trad climb on gear.

I have no personal knowledge of TC, but to imply that CL was not coached intensely by his father is completely wacko.

Curt

Oh I was around all right. Sane Diego Bouldering contest in the early 90's. Various PBC's after that. I saw all the interactions. Surprising that CL is still at it although there was a prolonged break. Maybe you can make an Andre Agassiz analogy.

I think in the context of this thread a coach is someone who has some credibility - someone who has some knowledge of the mechanics of the sport and can give useful instruction on specific ways to improve. It's also someone who understands the macro and micro cycles of training, endurance vs power how to peak for an event and so on. Not just some one with a "give me more" mentality (unless you are coaching the O line...)

TC's Dad was (is) a guide and just took TC along on some pretty ambitious adventures from a pretty young age.
No doubt in my mind which is better for the kid.

How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt

Tom was also a member of the 1972 US Olympic Gymnastics Team, but, as I understand it, he quit before the games due to a disagreement with a coach.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 23, 2012, 11:03 AM)


olderic


Jan 17, 2012, 9:55 AM
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curt wrote:
How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt

I guess I have to keep digging as long as you keep shoveling the crap that because you are good at something you are qualified to coach it.


csproul


Jan 17, 2012, 10:11 AM
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olderic wrote:
curt wrote:
How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt

I guess I have to keep digging as long as you keep shoveling the crap that because you are good at something you are qualified to coach it.
Nobody said they had to be good coachesWink! I once was told by a fairly prominent cycling coach that a bad training plan/coach was probably better than no plan/coach. I'm not sure how true that might be for climbers, but I thought it to be somewhat true for bicycles racers. At least with a bad plan, you can look at your results and dissect what didn't work.


JoeNYC


Jan 17, 2012, 1:49 PM
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Claiming that there is a best or better way to get good clearly is impossible right now because we have no evidence.

I think that the people who have the most refined technique are mostly the ones that care about it the most.

That's mostly one of the most ironic juxtapositions I've mostly ever seen.

Jay

I said "I think", was that too difficult to understand? Should I have said "I believe" instead?

You think there's no evidence, so you have an opinion based on no evidence. I get it.

Jay

Finally.


curt


Jan 17, 2012, 2:10 PM
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olderic wrote:
curt wrote:
How deep do you intend to dig that hole you're in? Tom Lindner was the United States national gymnastics champion on the high bar in 1972 when he was at Southern Illinois University. He is quite obviously intimately familiar with the coaching of movement and also with advanced training methods.

Curt

I guess I have to keep digging as long as you keep shoveling the crap that because you are good at something you are qualified to coach it.

Well, camhead certainly hit the nail on the head:

camhead wrote:
To review, I'm pretty sure that the evidence we've presented regarding Caldwell, Lindner, and Eric Hörst for that matter (though I haven't brought him up) is pretty convincing that they "coached" their kids.

If olderic is not buying it, that is his problem, and his own irrational ideological baggage, which was cemented into place well before the arguments in this forum were laid out.

Curt


ceebo


Jan 23, 2012, 6:19 AM
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Put in allot of time on easy/mid level climbing. Try new ways of completing old moves. Watch others complete same climbs and pay close attention to their footwork. Try it their way a few times, then decide if it was better or not. Watch youtube climbing vids.. alllot of them. Try work out what you think the climber is going to do next before he has done it.

Harder climbing is good too. Learning technique on easy shit then expecting to be able to use it at limit is complete bolix. While under stress its so easy to slip into bad technique.. start over gripping etc etc. You learn that control by doing more hard climbing. Cant ignore that.

*Good mix of easy/mid level climbing trying to do things differant all the time. Don't be shy on hard climbing at least once a week. Watch others climbing when you are resting.. and stay focused on what they are doing differant.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jan 23, 2012, 6:21 AM)


Partner j_ung


Jan 23, 2012, 10:53 AM
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ceebo wrote:
Learning technique on easy shit then expecting to be able to use it at limit is complete bolix. While under stress its so easy to slip into bad technique.. start over gripping etc etc. You learn that control by doing more hard climbing. Cant ignore that.

Well, sure. I don't think any coach worth his or her salt would claim as much. You build patterns on easy terrain, then stress proof on progressively harder stuff. It's a proven method.


jt512


Jan 27, 2012, 5:16 PM
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Newsflash: 5.14 climbers hire coaches. Too bad they didn't read this thread. Then, they would have known that movement is learned by yourself through motivation. Oh, wait, the coaches found defects in the climbers' movement and fitness that they were unaware of. Must have been a lack of motivation. After all, how much motivation could they possibly have if they can't even climb mid-5.14.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 27, 2012, 9:57 PM)


camhead


Jan 28, 2012, 7:14 AM
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Well, since this thread got revived, I've just got to respond to this:

bearbreeder wrote:

was alexander huber coached ... he climbs harder than anyone else here ...

Yes. And Huber's coach developed the systems board.

http://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/...em-boarding-for.html


danhague


Feb 23, 2012, 12:15 PM
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j_ung wrote:
I didn't really begin to learn this stuff until well into my climbing life in the mid-90s, when I starting working at Sportrock in Alexandria, VA. Working under guys ... Dan Hague and employing instructional programs based on Goddard and Neumann's work and later Douglas Hunter's...

I guess I was lucky. Not only did I have ample opportunity to study movement from masters, I was getting paid to do it as part of my job.

I have no freaking idea how other people learn this stuff. I certainly felt inadequate as a teacher most of the time—like the subject was so immense that it was impossible to convey any single aspect of it in a handful of 2-hour clinics.

I dunno. Maybe that means I never really learned any of it.

Thanks for the plug, Jay. Let's be clear about learning climbing movement; it ain't easy or quick. After teaching climbing movement to hundreds of climbers and scores of instructors from beginner to advanced and co-authoring a book on the topic I can tell you that people generally want these skills to be easily acquired through simple, systematic instruction. But learning movement just doesn't work that way.

First, if you've been climbing for any length of time you have developed strong tendencies toward preferred movement patterns whether you recognize them or not. They are difficult to replace with better or more efficient movement because the new skills will invariably feel more difficult. We all gravitate to things we do and like best. This is why I believe it's best to have an instructor that can get you to try different skills in the right way.

Second, learning movement takes patience and experimentation. You've got to consciously make yourself turn or flag or use quiet feet or improve the quality of your balance and then evaluate the result. It's an iterative process of experimentation, practice and application. That takes time and effort that almost all climbers would rather use to try to send their latest project rather than work on dreary movement skills.

Third, imitation is not really an effective means of learning movement. As I said, most climbers lean on their strengths so if you see climber A using his heel in a certain way it may or may not be appropriate. Good climbers have strong tendencies too so be careful who and how you choose to mimic.

Enough said. A good instructor and an open mind will go a long way toward helping you acquire sound movement skills.


mojomonkey


Feb 23, 2012, 12:52 PM
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olderic wrote:
But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

Running isn't that complicated either - children figure it out naturally. That doesn't mean coaching won't help them be better runners.

bearbreeder wrote:
one of my partners has been climbing for ~3 years, rarely goes into the gym, doesnt have a coach, and doesnt have SCC ... and hes done up to 5.12+ last year ... he just climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out

Your point? Perhaps with a coach or better training he'd be climbing 5.13+. I'd guess he would have made faster gains and be climbing at a higher level if he didn't "climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out" - as I understand from other sports with longer histories of training research, periodization helps athletes peak at a higher level.


shockabuku


Feb 23, 2012, 2:22 PM
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cracklover wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Now I'm no rock-star, and never will be, but I've learned a shit-ton of good technique this way. For how weak I am (just ask Curt!) I climb pretty damn well.

Just sayin', the short shrift being given to really paying attention to what you're doing, and finding intelligent ways to experiment on-route, is notable.

GO

That's like saying you should learn math all on your own. Works well for brilliant people like Newton but for your average practitioner the process is vastly accelerated by tutelage combined with self study.


bearbreeder


Feb 25, 2012, 2:15 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
olderic wrote:
But climbing isn't that complicated - any reasonably intelligent person should be able to figure out how if they are motivated.

Running isn't that complicated either - children figure it out naturally. That doesn't mean coaching won't help them be better runners.

bearbreeder wrote:
one of my partners has been climbing for ~3 years, rarely goes into the gym, doesnt have a coach, and doesnt have SCC ... and hes done up to 5.12+ last year ... he just climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out

Your point? Perhaps with a coach or better training he'd be climbing 5.13+. I'd guess he would have made faster gains and be climbing at a higher level if he didn't "climbs as often and hard as he can everytime he goes out" - as I understand from other sports with longer histories of training research, periodization helps athletes peak at a higher level.

my point is simply is that the SCC or a coach is not the ONLY way as someone here indicated ...

im not discounting the value of good books or a good coach ...

but the most important thing IMO you can do is to go out and climb with people better than you as often as you can ...

you need to have the desire to climb and the opportunity .... then work from there


Partner cracklover


Feb 27, 2012, 8:00 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Now I'm no rock-star, and never will be, but I've learned a shit-ton of good technique this way. For how weak I am (just ask Curt!) I climb pretty damn well.

Just sayin', the short shrift being given to really paying attention to what you're doing, and finding intelligent ways to experiment on-route, is notable.

GO

That's like saying you should learn math all on your own. Works well for brilliant people like Newton but for your average practitioner the process is vastly accelerated by tutelage combined with self study.

Your argument is logical, and I never suggested that having a coach couldn't be helpful for some. But I'm simply not convinced that the vast majority of people who climb with mediocre technique wouldn't gain far more useful and applicable climbing technique far more quickly if they just paid really close attention to what they were doing and how their body was responding to the balance points and the rock.

Look at the bit I was responding to directly:

In reply to:
And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

The way I take that is: "you can learn about flagging and backstepping and rocking over from a book, but until you get a coach to show you how to use them, you'll never figure out how to apply them just right."

That is so incredibly ass-backwards. Flagging and backstepping and rocking over are basic techniques I learned in my first year of climbing from... climbing. I used those techniques because they worked, and only later found they had names. And of course I know how they work, because the climbing itself taught me - and continues to teach me. As you get into harder climbs, you learn more and more subtle interplays between various things, your timing gets better, etc. This all comes naturally through paying attention.

Don't get me wrong - books and teachers are fine supplements, and if you want to be a competition climber, you will need to learn to work well with a coach, but overall, your absolute best teacher is the rock itself.

GO


lena_chita
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Feb 27, 2012, 8:08 AM
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cracklover wrote:
shockabuku wrote:

That's like saying you should learn math all on your own. Works well for brilliant people like Newton but for your average practitioner the process is vastly accelerated by tutelage combined with self study.

Your argument is logical, and I never suggested that having a coach couldn't be helpful for some. But I'm simply not convinced that the vast majority of people who climb with mediocre technique wouldn't gain far more useful and applicable climbing technique far more quickly if they just paid really close attention to what they were doing and how their body was responding to the balance points and the rock.

Look at the bit I was responding to directly:

lena_chita wrote:
And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

The way I take that is: "you can learn about flagging and backstepping and rocking over from a book, but until you get a coach to show you how to use them, you'll never figure out how to apply them just right."

That is so incredibly ass-backwards. Flagging and backstepping and rocking over are basic techniques I learned in my first year of climbing from... climbing. I used those techniques because they worked, and only later found they had names. And of course I know how they work, because the climbing itself taught me - and continues to teach me. As you get into harder climbs, you learn more and more subtle interplays between various things, your timing gets better, etc. This all comes naturally through paying attention.

Don't get me wrong - books and teachers are fine supplements, and if you want to be a competition climber, you will need to learn to work well with a coach, but overall, your absolute best teacher is the rock itself.

GO


Since you were responding to my comment, I feel like I need to clarify. I was NOT thinking of coaching when I wrote that.

I was actually responding to jt512, saying that book and DVD learning can only take you so far, and that for most climbers having a COACH is not realistic, but having a good climber friend who makes suggestions/points out things when you are stuck usually is helpful.


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lena_chita wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shockabuku wrote:

That's like saying you should learn math all on your own. Works well for brilliant people like Newton but for your average practitioner the process is vastly accelerated by tutelage combined with self study.

Your argument is logical, and I never suggested that having a coach couldn't be helpful for some. But I'm simply not convinced that the vast majority of people who climb with mediocre technique wouldn't gain far more useful and applicable climbing technique far more quickly if they just paid really close attention to what they were doing and how their body was responding to the balance points and the rock.

Look at the bit I was responding to directly:

lena_chita wrote:
And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

The way I take that is: "you can learn about flagging and backstepping and rocking over from a book, but until you get a coach to show you how to use them, you'll never figure out how to apply them just right."

That is so incredibly ass-backwards. Flagging and backstepping and rocking over are basic techniques I learned in my first year of climbing from... climbing. I used those techniques because they worked, and only later found they had names. And of course I know how they work, because the climbing itself taught me - and continues to teach me. As you get into harder climbs, you learn more and more subtle interplays between various things, your timing gets better, etc. This all comes naturally through paying attention.

Don't get me wrong - books and teachers are fine supplements, and if you want to be a competition climber, you will need to learn to work well with a coach, but overall, your absolute best teacher is the rock itself.

GO


Since you were responding to my comment, I feel like I need to clarify. I was NOT thinking of coaching when I wrote that.

I was actually responding to jt512, saying that book and DVD learning can only take you so far, and that for most climbers having a COACH is not realistic, but having a good climber friend who makes suggestions/points out things when you are stuck usually is helpful.

Oh, OK, fair enough. It's the definition of "when you're stuck" that is at issue for me. Knowing when to turn to external advice, and when (and how) to listen to what the rock is trying to tell you is where I fear many people go astray.

GO


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cracklover wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shockabuku wrote:

That's like saying you should learn math all on your own. Works well for brilliant people like Newton but for your average practitioner the process is vastly accelerated by tutelage combined with self study.

Your argument is logical, and I never suggested that having a coach couldn't be helpful for some. But I'm simply not convinced that the vast majority of people who climb with mediocre technique wouldn't gain far more useful and applicable climbing technique far more quickly if they just paid really close attention to what they were doing and how their body was responding to the balance points and the rock.

Look at the bit I was responding to directly:

lena_chita wrote:
And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

The way I take that is: "you can learn about flagging and backstepping and rocking over from a book, but until you get a coach to show you how to use them, you'll never figure out how to apply them just right."

That is so incredibly ass-backwards. Flagging and backstepping and rocking over are basic techniques I learned in my first year of climbing from... climbing. I used those techniques because they worked, and only later found they had names. And of course I know how they work, because the climbing itself taught me - and continues to teach me. As you get into harder climbs, you learn more and more subtle interplays between various things, your timing gets better, etc. This all comes naturally through paying attention.

Don't get me wrong - books and teachers are fine supplements, and if you want to be a competition climber, you will need to learn to work well with a coach, but overall, your absolute best teacher is the rock itself.

GO


Since you were responding to my comment, I feel like I need to clarify. I was NOT thinking of coaching when I wrote that.

I was actually responding to jt512, saying that book and DVD learning can only take you so far, and that for most climbers having a COACH is not realistic, but having a good climber friend who makes suggestions/points out things when you are stuck usually is helpful.

Oh, OK, fair enough. It's the definition of "when you're stuck" that is at issue for me. Knowing when to turn to external advice, and when (and how) to listen to what the rock is trying to tell you is where I fear many people go astray.

GO

Apparently the rock speaks louder to some of us than to others. I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay


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Feb 27, 2012, 11:06 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay

Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better?

GO


jt512


Feb 27, 2012, 12:01 PM
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay

Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better?

GO

The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it.

Jay


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Feb 27, 2012, 12:46 PM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay

Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better?

GO

The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it.

Jay

Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient.

Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work.

Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become?

Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 27, 2012, 12:49 PM)


jt512


Feb 27, 2012, 12:52 PM
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cracklover wrote:

one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do.

Jay


njrox


Feb 27, 2012, 1:19 PM
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jt512 wrote:

The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it.

Jay

This is actually a really good argument to learn outside of a "just climb" approach to improve on climbing technique.

But for so many of us climbing at best is a once a week thing. Maybe two hours in the gym on a weeknight. Maybe a six hour day on the weeked on rock. When that's all the time you get, the mindset of "training" isn't there as much as just going to climb and have fun. So beyond flagging and drop knees you're not hearing about the finer techniques as much. And while waiting for lines to free up, you're not able to work endurance sets as easily.

Maybe I'll take another look through my SCC and see if there's a couple of things I can remember to be mindful of next time. Try and add a few techniques over time while I'm "just climbing".


lena_chita
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Feb 27, 2012, 1:33 PM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:

one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do.

Jay

We are having a circular argument.

Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way.

So then they say: "look, I learned on my own, I paid attention to what I was doing, I got to be pretty good, and I am continuing to improve. So everyone else can, too, and if everyone pays attention to what they are doing, the way I did, the coaching is not necessary. If anything, the coaching turns off your brain and makes you follow other people's instructions instead of learning things on your own"

What is missing is the hypothetical possibility that with good coaching the same person could have gotten further. But it cannot be formally tested in the case of this specific person.

You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan, you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial.

The only way to test these things would be to take two groups of beginner climbers, randomize them by their ability, and let one group discover things on their own, listening to their bodies, paying attention, experimenting, etc. etc., while the other group would get formal coaching.

or, to take a group of climbers of similar ability level, randomize into two groups, repeat as above.


There is no doubt at all in my mind that the coached group would perform better, and that even those who got to be really good climbers on their own could still get better/improve faster with coaching.

But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches:
-- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing
-- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers
-- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability.

Once again, some people will do more of one, and some will do more of the other, and most will do some sort of combination of the above... and if they feel that they are getting better on their chosen regimen, they will continue to believe that their way is the right way, because here is the evidence that it works, and never mind the fact that it COULD potentially work even better if they did something else.


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Feb 27, 2012, 1:38 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:

one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do.

Jay

We are having a circular argument.

Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way.

So then they say: "look, I learned on my own, I paid attention to what I was doing, I got to be pretty good, and I am continuing to improve. So everyone else can, too, and if everyone pays attention to what they are doing, the way I did, the coaching is not necessary. If anything, the coaching turns off your brain and makes you follow other people's instructions instead of learning things on your own"

What is missing is the hypothetical possibility that with good coaching the same person could have gotten further. But it cannot be formally tested in the case of this specific person.

You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan, you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial.

The only way to test these things would be to take two groups of beginner climbers, randomize them by their ability, and let one group discover things on their own, listening to their bodies, paying attention, experimenting, etc. etc., while the other group would get formal coaching.

or, to take a group of climbers of similar ability level, randomize into two groups, repeat as above.


There is no doubt at all in my mind that the coached group would perform better, and that even those who got to be really good climbers on their own could still get better/improve faster with coaching.

But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches:
-- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing
-- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers
-- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability.

Once again, some people will do more of one, and some will do more of the other, and most will do some sort of combination of the above... and if they feel that they are getting better on their chosen regimen, they will continue to believe that their way is the right way, because here is the evidence that it works, and never mind the fact that it COULD potentially work even better if they did something else.

I keep thinking about some regular work with a coach. I think I'll try to start that this year.


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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay

Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better?

GO

The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it.

Jay

Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient.

Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work.

Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become?

Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

GO

This is interesting to me. I started out a trad climber and I also used to think that slow deliberate movement was the hallmark of good climbing.

I read 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes by Dave MacLeod recently in which he says that almost all movement should be dynamic to some degree. I started incorporating some element of dynamism into my climbing and my bouldering has improved tremendously (for me) in the last six months.


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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:

one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

Or you can just further ingrain bad habits, which is what the vast majority of climbers I see do.

Jay

We are having a circular argument.

On the Internet? No way.

In reply to:
Most people got to where they are without any regimented coaching or regimented learning at all. Trial and error can take you some distance. And many of them got to be quite good that way.

Agreed.

In reply to:
You are coming from a different viewpoint. For you, SCC was a breakthrough. If you never came across SCC, if you never talked to Dan [sic, s/b Douglas], you might have discovered these things on your own, some ways down the road... who knows? But you didn't, so you look back at your experience and see that as pivotal and crucial.

SCC was definitely a breakthrough for me, and it's virtually certain that I never would have discovered the principles in that book on my own. I was stuck in the wrong climbing paradigm, and my efforts at observation and self-improvement were limited by that paradigm.

In reply to:
But back to real world, we have no coaches to go to, so your best bet is a combination of the following approaches:
-- to climb and to figure out things on your own, by being attentive to what you are doing
-- to get feedback from friends and other people offering advice, preferably good climbers
-- to read anything that has been written about climbing training, decide what makes sense, and follow the plan to the best of your ability.

This is exactly where the SCC comes it. It provides a fundamental model of climbing movement (one could argue a fundamentally correct model) that, once understood, gives the climber a valid framework from which to evaluate and improve his own climbing. It's no longer a process of trial and error, or learning from better climbers who may be teaching you their own bad habits, or having to discover first principles on your own.

Jay


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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I climbed for a good 15 years before I read the SCC, and when I did, it opened my eyes to a whole new level of climbing. Basically, I had been doing it all wrong for 15 years, and had to re-teach myself climbing from—no pun intended—the ground up.

Actually, Douglas was more charitable. He said I was only doing it all wrong about half the time.

Jay

Okay, interesting. So can you give an example of something that was working but was "wrong"? What made it wrong? And what was the "right" solution, and what made it better?

GO

The building blocks of climbing movement are not discrete techniques, like flags, backsteps, and hand jams. Rather, they are things like balance, movement initiation, movement centers, momentum generation, body tension, timing, and so on. Except possibly for balance, I had no concept of those elements. I wasn't engaging my legs and back, I was dropping my heels, I wasn't arching my back enough, I had no body tension, I wasn't effectively generating momentum. Essentially, I thought of climbing like this: find the next handhold, move the feet up, get in balance and reach for the next handhold. That doesn't mean I wasn't backstepping, flagging, drop-kneeing, and all that. I was. I had a pretty good idea about how to engage the holds to form a high-quality base of support and to stay in balance. But that was about it.

Jay

Well then wouldn't it be more fair to say that you were able to learn on your own the fundamentals of keeping your COG over your feet in a static way? That's an important set of fundamentals. It sounds like you just got stuck when it came to figuring out how to make your *movement* efficient.

Anyway, you should give yourself credit for the first half, rather than just saying you failed to figure everything out for yourself, and therefore figuring things out for oneself doesn't work.

Perhaps the problem was that when you started climbing, "static" was the end-all-be-all, and that's all you strove to become?

Be that as it may, I still stand by the fact that while everyone could probably benefit from really good coaching, one can always make new strides in technique through a combination of paying close attention to your own movements, including intelligent experimentation and improvisation, combined with striving to gain new insight.

GO

This is interesting to me. I started out a trad climber and I also used to think that slow deliberate movement was the hallmark of good climbing.

I read 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes by Dave MacLeod recently in which he says that almost all movement should be dynamic to some degree. I started incorporating some element of dynamism into my climbing and my bouldering has improved tremendously (for me) in the last six months.

I'm glad someone mentioned this book. I think the 3 books that have benefited me the most are SCC, "9 Out of 10...", and "The Rock Warrior's Way" by Arno.

Even if one doesn't have access to a competent coach on a regular basis, i think getting a session whenever possible is highly beneficial.


ceebo


Feb 27, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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I see what you done their, but on the whole.. the soon to be dad builds the new pram faster when he reads the instructions.

So with that in mind, why ignore the decades worth of info from other climbers?.

For the most part books and so just put a word to something you already do and help you understand what it is. On the other hand they help you forumlate tried and tested training methods that braught great results to others. Maybe it worked for them and will not work for you?.. but in reality their is more chance those will help than make things worse.

allot of time people have to much pride and want to go about like they figured it all out themself. Every body need to learn what they can from who they can.. its the best weay,


boadman


Mar 1, 2012, 11:34 PM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
sandeld wrote:
Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?

Nope.

In reply to:
Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.

Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement.

If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work!

Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.


jt512


Mar 2, 2012, 12:35 AM
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Re: [boadman] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sandeld wrote:
Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?

Nope.

In reply to:
Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.

Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement.

If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work!

Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.

Seriously, boadman, think critically. I wonder why more climbers don't climb as well as Sharma and Ondra.

Jay


onceahardman


Mar 2, 2012, 3:23 PM
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Re: [boadman] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
sandeld wrote:
Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?

Nope.

In reply to:
Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.

Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement.

If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Wow, I wonder how Sharma & Ondra managed to learn decent technique. Bachar sucked too. And that guy Peter Croft never really managed to climb well. Imagine if he had only been able to read the hallowed work!

Seriously JT, think critically. Even koolaid drinkers can sip other beverages occassionally when they're thirsty.


Well stated. True Believers can never question anything that is written in The Book. How in the world do so many Euros climb higher numbers?


derk424


Mar 22, 2012, 8:51 AM
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Re: How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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For me, at first it was a pure watch and learn approach. Then, once I was friends with some of the stronger climbers in the gym, I asked what they saw as flaws. They pointed out the footwork/body position issues. So i started doing exercises like silent feet, down-climbing, traversing for long periods. The more pumped you get the more critical your footwork/efficiency becomes.

Ultimately, I hit a plateau just on self-training with no real guidance. I joined the gyms team and the coach pointed out things I couldn't see because its hard to analyze mistakes when you can't watch yourself climb.

Picked up the SCC after that and just furthered my understanding.

After about a year the final step in really understanding movement was to start setting at the gym, which just blows your mind on learning how to read routes and body position.

Hope it helps.


flesh


Mar 22, 2012, 10:15 AM
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It's interesting reading all of your thoughts on this. Jt like usual could be more friendly.

At some point Jay mentioned that he has a PHD or masters in some sort of science, it's likely that he naturally or through practice learns best through reading/studying. Other folks learn differently, there's many ways to measure an individuals intelligence. Some folks may learn best through watching videos of themselves or others or watching other advanced climbers. Also, we all have different body types with different strengths and weaknesses. We may have more or less fast twitch vs slow twitch muscle fibers that change what style or technique might work best for us, etc.

It makes me wonder if I inadvertantly learned alot of the SCC technique/training. The first gym I ever had a membership to was Doug Hunter's gym. I bouldered with him a dozen times. He never trained me personally but I regularly climbed with the kids he did train my first few years. Everyone at that gym did 4 x 4's, climbed with straight arms, etc. This was in 1997.

I remember reading different books my first few years, how to climb 5.12 , etc. They did nothing for me.

Dave Mcleod's book 9 out of 10, is great for intermediate and advanced climbers. IMO, Doug Hunter's style of climbing (seeing him climb personally routes and boulders for hours) was to static for alot of the of the advanced/semi pro climbing today. His book is probably better for beginner/intermediate. Some of the boulders I climb are easiest when campused for example. Dave mentions in his book at one point the benefits of pogoing off one foot to generate momentum on sloping or really thin holds. Or, using a free hanging leg and swinging it from side to side or up and down to create momentum. I don't recall reading anything like that in SCC or Doug climbing using these techniques himself. Doug was very smooth and static, classic old school top climber.

It's counterproductive to climb that way at say, v10 plus or maybe 5.14 plus.


(This post was edited by flesh on Mar 22, 2012, 10:23 AM)


jt512


Mar 22, 2012, 10:22 AM
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flesh wrote:
It's interesting reading all of your thoughts on this. Jt like usual could be more friendly.

It makes me wonder if I inadvertantly learned alot of the SCC technique/training. The first gym I ever had a membership to was Doug Hunter's gym. I bouldered with him a dozen times. He never trained me personally but I regularly climbed with the kids he did train my first few years. Everyone at that gym did 4 x 4's, climbed with straight arms, etc. This was in 1997.

I remember reading different books my first few years, how to climb 5.12 , etc. They did nothing for me.

Dave Mcleod's book 9 out of 10, is great for intermediate and advanced climbers. IMO, Doug Hunter's style of climbing (seeing him climb personally routes and boulders for hours) was to static for alot of the of the advanced/semi pro climbing today. His book is probably better for beginner/intermediate. Some of the boulders I climb are easiest when campused for example. Dave mentions in his book at one point the benefits of pogoing off one foot to generate momentum on sloping or really thin holds. Or, using a free hanging leg and swinging it from side to side or up and down to create momentum. I don't recall reading anything like that in SCC or Doug climbing using these techniques himself. Doug was very smooth and static, classic old school top climber.

It's counterproductive to climb that way at say, v10 plus or maybe 5.14 plus.

I climb with Douglas regularly, and he is not even remotely a static climber.

Jay


flesh


Mar 23, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Maybe he's changed or maybe we have different tolerances for what static is or isn't.

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZnWHABLaNs&feature=plcp&context=C482a4a6VDvjVQa1PpcFM5JWqRNZMjDES-lFG2X5QfUrWlhmjzBww%3D

Is this good technique or bad? It was a first try. There were two spanish climbers there and they had been trying it without campusing two of the moves I did. They kept trying to get there feet on the wall with their hands so low that it was a super high step. I thought I should just campus up higher so it's not such a high step.

The more I read this thread, the more I want a coach.

Does anyone know a good coach in the SLC, UT area?

Does it matter whether or not your coach can climb harder than you?

I guess even if they can't climb as hard as you that they likely would have more experience is the discourse on movement, etc. Sometimes, just having someone there keeping me motivated would probably make a big difference.


(This post was edited by flesh on Mar 23, 2012, 11:33 AM)


wmshub


Mar 23, 2012, 11:39 AM
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Re: [flesh] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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You get points for making it up the rock.

Your buddy gets none for holding the video camera sideways the whole time.


shockabuku


Mar 23, 2012, 1:10 PM
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