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blueeyedclimber


Jan 12, 2012, 5:59 AM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

I don't buy that.

GO

Me neither. At least the way he worded it. It's a no-brainer that if you were to hire a professional coach it would make you a better climber. Also, from what I hear about SCC, it sounds like a well put together product. But, to suggest that those are the only two ways to climb well is utterly ridiculous. I am pretty sure that quite a few good climbers have never done either.

Also, there are plenty of good teachers that are not professional coaches.

Josh


camhead


Jan 12, 2012, 7:09 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.


chadnsc


Jan 12, 2012, 7:18 AM
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camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.


Dat iz da cheatin' cammie.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 8:14 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.


camhead


Jan 12, 2012, 8:18 AM
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surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.


chadnsc


Jan 12, 2012, 8:36 AM
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Hey now Eric, there's nothing wrong with mediocrity. Well as long as you don't try giving out advice on how to obtain it. Wink


JoeNYC


Jan 12, 2012, 8:58 AM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit


Partner j_ung


Jan 12, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.


unsunken


Jan 12, 2012, 3:41 PM
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Re: [j_ung] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.


jt512


Jan 12, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Re: [unsunken] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay


granite_grrl


Jan 12, 2012, 4:30 PM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports.

To become good at football, which is more effective: to play football with your friends or to join your high-school team and be professionally coached?

To excel at figure skating, which avenue would you pursue: go skating with your friends or take figure skating lessons from a professional?

To learn gymnastics: friends or coach?

What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

Swimming: How many olympic swimmers got to the Olympics via swimming with their friends versus being coached by professional swimming coahces?

Why is climbing any different?

Jay

The best thing to do is get out with another climber who is a thoughtful, educated climber. Most people are not likely to be able to hire a coach, but someone else that thinks about their climbing and has learned from something like the SCC isn't bad.


JoeNYC


Jan 12, 2012, 4:45 PM
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...and the point was missed.

Not every "brah" (whatever that is) responds to help from only either (1) a coach or (2)a book. Seriously, who would argue that they would? ...oh, right...

Sure, Wolfgang might've hypothetically gotten better with a coach, but he also might not have, there is no way to know! That was the point of showing the people who started with school, and then abandoned it to achieve great things, ugh, remember, different strokes for...?

I'm not even going to touch on the fact that that article is about as anecdotal as its possible to be, namely, its based on one person!

I feel like i just finished arguing with a six-year-old.


ghisino


Jan 12, 2012, 5:22 PM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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i'm (mostly) autodidact by necessity. Never had access to the right coaching at the right time at the right price...

my very general tips for learning movement skills:
1.motivation.
2.good motivation: you learn better when you enjoy trying hard, than when you only like success.
3.Stable self esteem and high frustration failure (being able to fail and try again many times without feeling bad about it)
4.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
5.focus
6.Careful observation.
7.Visualization
8.repetition
9.being open to change

good coaches should be able to help on all the points listed above. Coaching should be about creating the best conditions for learning first, and then about exercises, drills and technique.
But i've also heard of/seen bad coaches.

climbing specific tips.
-books can be useful sources of inspiration. just don't pick one and make it your bible: i'd say at least two of them, from different authors.
-bouldering (and bolt-to-bolt redpointing) can be a great movement lab, but teaches you to overpower everything.
-bouldering with good beta is even better.
-some leashed mileage at relatively easy grades often fixes the "overpower" defect related to bouldering
-the general vibe of your "climbing scene", as well as external factors (eg stress, your general mood, etc) can have a dramating impact on your ability to make physical and technical improvements.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 7:20 PM
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Re: [camhead] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.

How about just climbing more? That's one pretty damn good way to get better at technique and movement.
There are way too many good, fun climbs out there to do instead of being in a gym or hangboarding at home chasing some #.
I climb b/c its fun. I'll be sure to stay out of the training [work] forum so you guys can figure out what protein shake to chug to break into the elusive 12s.


granite_grrl


Jan 12, 2012, 7:24 PM
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Re: [surfstar] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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surfstar wrote:
camhead wrote:
surfstar wrote:
meh - I climb b/c its fun. When I have to start "training" and getting a "coach" F that - sounds like work to me or people having little league flashbacks.

Then why are you posting to the Technique & Training Forum? Might I suggest that you go over to Big Walls and tell them that when you have to start doing Grade V A2, "F that?" Or maybe go over to Bouldering and tell them that bouldering is too hard, so "f that." Or maybe you could go open an account on a firearms website, just so you can start a thread about how you don't like guns?

They all are just dying for your insight, so please, contribute more. Oh, and have fun in mediocrity.

How about just climbing more? That's one pretty damn good way to get better at technique and movement.
There are way too many good, fun climbs out there to do instead of being in a gym or hangboarding at home chasing some #.
I climb b/c its fun. I'll be sure to stay out of the training [work] forum so you guys can figure out what protein shake to chug to break into the elusive 12s.

Climbing doesn't have to be fun to be fun.


surfstar


Jan 12, 2012, 7:26 PM
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You guys have fun watching dvds and reading books, my mediocre skillz are heading to Josh for a 4day weekend.


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

I don't buy that.

GO

I don't either.

Curt


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:28 PM
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camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.

That's almost a perfect paraphrase of John Stannard. "The key to good footwork is incredibly strong fingers."

Curt


curt


Jan 12, 2012, 10:32 PM
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jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Curt


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 12:07 AM
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Re: [curt] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Yes, it does depend on who your friends are. I think that explains the Utah phenomenon, whereby the density of highly skilled climbers in the state is so high that practically everybody in the state, including the non-climbers, climbs 5.12.

However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 13, 2012, 12:08 AM)


camhead


Jan 13, 2012, 5:45 AM
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Re: [curt] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
camhead wrote:
The key to impeccable technique is to get really strong fingers. Then you can just hang onto anything, to the point that technique doesn't matter.

That's almost a perfect paraphrase of John Stannard. "The key to good footwork is incredibly strong fingers."

Curt

Well, I first heard you say it, heh!


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 6:40 AM
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jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.


lena_chita
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Jan 13, 2012, 7:41 AM
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jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 8:13 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

That wasn't advice.

How long until you realize that what people have been saying IS their personal experience?

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