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Partner cracklover


Jan 13, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
jt512 wrote:
unsunken wrote:
j_ung wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
In reply to:
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports....

In reply to:
...What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?

I think you are asking a strange question. In order to me a mathematician all you have to do is study math. Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, Michael Faraday, Srinivasa Ramanujan, GW Leibnitz and many, many more, (including one I just noticed, Sean Parker, the napster/facebook guy), got good at their vocations because the studied it on their own. It's called autodidacticism, look it up if you think everybody who did anything good was taught it. The same goes for sports, Michael Jordan did not get good because his coaches were better at NC than the other guys, he got good because he was insane; he practiced any chance he got.

In order to teach at a university or play in the NBA nowadays, yes, you need to go to school because, likely, you aren't going to get noticed any other way. Asking how (most?) people get to be what they want, that is, arguing that the common path chosen by people to get what they want as the best way to get it is silly. The majority isn't the answer either. Your response is a combination, i believe, of affirming the consequent and ad populum.

What i suspiciously left out was supposed to be obvious: climbing with your friends and being dedicated to get better. I said that there were no right or wrong ways in climbing because people get equally good at thing with very different methods, but what stays the same is the motivation, which is why I added the friends (because I think friends help me stay motivated). Do you really think that being taught is a substitute for actually wanting to get better? I don't. Much as i love to climb, I know there are people out there who love it more and practice better, and as a result are better than me. So, I'm curious, was Wolfgang G. going at it the wrong way because he didn't have a coach? You must think that he would be better with one, right, haha, or if he read the SCC?

As you said....bullshit

I don't agree with jt512 that there are only 2 ways to learn this stuff. But I do I think there's a very good chance Wolfgang Gullich would have been even better with a qualified coach or by reading SCC.

This comment reminded me of an article I'd read about a surgeon getting a coach to see if he'd improve. The answer was yes, and suggests that it's probably the case for almost any skill.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Now I'm no rock-star, and never will be, but I've learned a shit-ton of good technique this way. For how weak I am (just ask Curt!) I climb pretty damn well.

Just sayin', the short shrift being given to really paying attention to what you're doing, and finding intelligent ways to experiment on-route, is notable.

GO


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach. And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

That wasn't advice.

How long until you realize that what people have been saying IS their personal experience?

I included you since you're a fellow MN climber, and agree that there those of us here that get along just fine in the flat Midwest.

And, by him telling me to get a coach or the book is not his personal experience, hence my response.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JT wasn't telling YOU to get a book or a coach. He was stating his opinion on the matter (aka how did he learn technique / movement).

You decided that JT was incorrect and decided to debate him on the accuracy of his option. Odd since you asked for his opinion to begin with.


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 9:16 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."


granite_grrl


Jan 13, 2012, 9:27 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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sandeld wrote:
He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

It's funny 'cause it's true.


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 9:28 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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sandeld wrote:
He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

I read JT's response to your OP as just his option.

It wasn't until you decided to start arguing that a coach or reading wasn't necessary did JT address you directly.

I still don't understand why you'd ask for how people learned technique then argue about how their response was incorrect.

Seems like a whole lot of drama over nothing.


JoeNYC


Jan 13, 2012, 9:52 AM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with†.†.†.

So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches.

Shouldn't there be a question mark there? My serious answer is that I suppose it depends on who your friends are.

Yes, it does depend on who your friends are....He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

and

lena_chita wrote:
Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.


Yes! Seeing a backstep or highstep on the SCC video, is not even in the same realm as doing an actual backstep on a route. Other people climbing climbing WITH you, on the other hand, CAN help you see this. It depends on who your friends are, but who would take advise from a dude who has poor technique. Even if you did, the FEELING of a good backstep is the learned part, not the lame technological understanding of it.

The fact that the book is written by professional coaches doesn't make it the bible of climbing technique. It sounds like Jay is saying is that the only way to get better people is to say "f off" to your buddies and read a book. Good Luck. Maybe thats how Jay got to climb 5.12, and if thats he case I'm not surprised. Little in that book can't be learned by watching a climbing movie or looking around on the internet.

I watch professional coaches teach people to do v4's all day, and let me tell you, it's not enlightening, they act more like friends motivating each other than a teacher showing a student calculus for the first time. Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

People should get the book if they want to do drop-knees on 5.8s all day, If you want to do one on a 5.13, then your best bet is to find the people who are already doing that. To be honest, though, I find that even v15 climbers pick the method that they like (based on body-type or whatever), not what might be the easiest. Captain Obvious also notices that the probability of grimy footwork is at much higher concentrations on v6 then it does on v10. Perhaps it is the 10,000 hour rule that matters most. The point is that the book has no traction on its own. Read it, study it, masturbate to the video all you want, but the chances that you will end up with better technique then the gym rat who is surrounded by it (and does it) all day is not good.


lena_chita
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Jan 13, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I don't think this has anything to do with not listening to your body. No coach, or book, or buddy, would be able physically move your body through the moves. Nor would they be telling you everything step-by-step on every climb you would ever do. Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

This is why gymnasts review the video of their routines, for example -- because that way they can see the things that they aren't actually "feeling" properly when actually doing it. And this is where the coach really helps -- telling you that you need to tuck in more, that the arm needs to swing out more for counterbalance, the back leg on the leap is not coming up high enough, that the grip needs to be adjusted on the bar, etc. etc.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.


cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Coaching is not about giving "beta". Sure, that is what a lot of climbing buddies would do in real life... goes back to why an average climbing buddy is not the same as a good coach. (But some climbing buddies could be effective coaches)

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.


Partner j_ung


Jan 13, 2012, 10:25 AM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

Don't ever do that again.


caughtinside


Jan 13, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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Ok, I'll play.

I learned technique/movement by climbing with better climbers. Some of it was getting stymied on a move, and asking for beta. Someone of similar size with good movement skills can tell you how to do the move, and you learn what your body should be doing.

I also bought the SCC and watched the DVD. I never really got on the 'program' but I did start doing several of the exercises, and I did learn a few things about movement.

I would say that if I had gotten the SCC when I was a beginner it probably would have been much more helpful, I think I got it after I'd been climbing 6 or 7 years.


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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sandeld wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
jt512 wrote:
However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Hehehehehe. I can think of a couple MN climbers who disprove that but that was just too funny to care.

So far, no need for a coach.

If by "so far," you're referring to the 5.10a in your (out-of-date *wink*) profile, then I'd have to disagree.

In reply to:
And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

You mean, before we believe it?

Jay


sandeld


Jan 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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I'm well past 10a's now and have been climbing less than a year, but no matter how I try to justify it here, I'm sure your almighty climbing authority will find some way to discredit it. So, sure, I'll just agree with you so you can feed your ego by "beating another noob on an Internet forum".


chadnsc


Jan 13, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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sandeld wrote:
I'm well past 10a's now and have been climbing less than a year, but no matter how I try to justify it here, I'm sure your almighty climbing authority will find some way to discredit it. So, sure, I'll just agree with you so you can feed your ego by "beating another noob on an Internet forum".

You know sandeld it takes a bigger man to just not respond to taunts and move on.

As an old friend of mine told me once "consider the source". I think both JT and you should take heed of that little bit of advice.


bearbreeder


Jan 13, 2012, 1:03 PM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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i never knew honnold read the SCC or had a coach ... most interesting ... or peter croft for that matter ...

id like to know if this bum reads the SCC or has a "coach" ... he's likely sending harder than anyone here

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/...d-progression-part-2

You may have caught on to my fascination with rapid progression through the climbing grades. Like most of us, I trickled up a grade or less with each year of climbing. When Jeremy Zachariash, an unknown to me, twenty-one year old claimed the second ascent of Jonathan Siegristís 5.14c testpiece New World Order, I raised a brow. After a little Google-stalking I found out that, not only was he young, but that heíd only been climbing for four years and just two years ago sent his first 5.13. Jeremy filled us in on what it takes to get good quick and why a diet of Heath Bar Blizzards doesn't help in the least.

......

DPM: What was your first climbing experience? How did you get into the sport?

Jeremy: I grew up climbing trees. When I was 17 years old, I wasnít into school and dropped out and went to a ski resort and worked as a ski instructor full time. Once the season ended I was looking for something to do and tried climbing and havenít skied since.

DPM: So youíve only been climbing for 4 years? How did you get so good so fast? What has your progression looked like?

Jeremy: I started out in the gym, and a year into climbing in the gym I tried climbing outside. From then on I switched my focus to climbing outside and spent a lot of time at Little Si working through the grades and putting in time on all the routes. When that season ended I managed to get into the low 13ís. From that time on, I spent my time either on the road or working to go climb. I went on a 5 month trip with my little brother and a friend. Then I came back, worked, and went on a 2 week trip that turned into 7 months! (laughs) During those trips it was all about having fun and climbing and it still is. Not until the last two months did I start to really progress. I had been working a Route in Washington called Baby Fight and I was trying it a lot but then put my efforts on hold to start bolting routes. After a couple weeks of bolting, scrubbing and climbing my own routes, I went back to the crag and fired the route. I then turned my focus to a line called Blackest Magic (5.14b) which I had always looked at as something I wanted to do. I worked the route for three weeks straight and watched what I ate. When I sent the route and got the second ascent, it was a big step up from anything I had ever climbed and really helped my fitness. Since then, I have just been having fun battling conditions, moving project to project, and trying hard.

DPM: Do you train? If so, when did you start? What do you do? Do you have a coach? Have you ever competed?

Jeremy: Currently I have been climbing outside around 3 to 5 days a week. I havenít climbed in a gym in over three months. All I do is watch what I eat and occasionally run. Sometime in the future I would like to train but up until now I have never really trained. I have only been to one competition a year or two ago and decided not to compete but it was fun to hang out.




Partner cracklover


Jan 13, 2012, 1:43 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.

lena_chita wrote:
Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.

In reply to:
BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.

In reply to:
I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO


onceahardman


Jan 13, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Re: [sandeld] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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I have no doubt that SCC has helped many climb better. I don't hate the book. It's fine.

I also have no doubt that a professional coach who really knew his/her stuff would be a great help to a well-motivated climber.

But the idea that those are the ONLY two ways to improve is very easily falsified (and has been in this very thread), and refusing to see that can only be described as mendacious.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.


damienclimber


Jan 13, 2012, 3:32 PM
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sandeld wrote:
Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?


A.Are you asking these questions to enhance your personal trainer skills to include rockclimbers?

B. Or are you writing another STUPID book to put under your pillow at night,
( so the climbing fairy will give you great talent in the morning without any training?) Laugh


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 5:41 PM
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Re: [cracklover] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.

lena_chita wrote:
Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.

In reply to:
BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.

In reply to:
cracklover wrote:
I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.

In reply to:
I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay


JoeNYC


Jan 13, 2012, 8:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 8:21 PM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

That's a closely held secret.

Jay


jt512


Jan 13, 2012, 8:25 PM
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Re: [j_ung] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

Don't ever do that again.

That post was kind of high risk. I probably won't go down that road again.

Jay


ghisino


Jan 14, 2012, 5:24 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
This is why gymnasts review the video of their routines.

I don't like this example. Gymnastics are based on how the routine looks.
Which makes it appropriate to have an exact visual reference.

Climbing is based on getting on top of things through a series of problem-solving processes, most of which are being solved at an unconscious level.
Of course the visual reference is really helpful but the amount to which each individual should fine tune his own movement patterns (in order to get the best result) is much higher.
IMHO the idealistic objective of a climbing coach should not be to teach "perfect technique", but rather to help climbers develop a "perfect problem-solving feel" : technique and fitness are important as means, not as the ultimate goal...


(This post was edited by ghisino on Jan 14, 2012, 5:28 AM)


Partner j_ung


Jan 14, 2012, 2:55 PM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

I'm probably as big a proponent of SCC as jt512 is, though maybe not as vocal on these boards. I can't speak for him, but Douglas doesn't pay me squat. The bum owes me some some serious couch space, as a matter of fact.


mr.tastycakes


Jan 15, 2012, 7:46 AM
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Re: [JoeNYC] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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JoeNYC wrote:
Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.


JoeNYC


Jan 15, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Re: [mr.tastycakes] How did you learn technique/movement? [In reply to]
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mr.tastycakes wrote:
JoeNYC wrote:
Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.


Numbnuts, how about you consider three things I already said, and then decide if you even have any beef with my argument again:

The first point you probably missed me saying is that the book doesn't actually do the work; it is not the end-all-be-all discussion of climbing movement which takes you on a guaranteed journey to 5.14 enlightenment. There is nothing special about a book that provides a bunch of activities for finding your balance, or experimenting with your technique with your friends....et cetera.

Second, it might be nice to hear someone say it, and use some scientifico-physiologico jargon along the way, but I seriously believe serious people already do this on their own. Who doesn't experiment with beta on a boulder problem or watch other people climb? The book doesn't make you "feel" what works, it merely "tells" you to work on some concepts...great. In fact, perhaps the ONLY way to get better, is by actually putting in the work. (This is an exegesis of the claim i said where Jay or anyone makes the fallacy of denying the antecedent. An argument which the form: If P (You don't read the SCC) then Q (You will not get better), not P, therefore not Q is not logically founded.)

Third, I wouldn't be making all this fuss without having read it, still I should've known that the consensus on an internet forum about climbing would say "read a book to get better" or "hire a coach." I am only highlighting all this to point out the missing emphasis lost in the first few statements given to the the Original Poster between reading, coaching, and being better. The book isn't necessary or the best way to get better, do i seriously need to reiterate that? Hold on, ready? People learn differently....Holy Shit!

I'm done defending "getting better at climbing by climbing," whereby in "climbing" i understand trying with other people. Clearly, I'm preaching to the wrong choir on this website, mine must be at the crag by now. Finally, I was mainly cross with the guy who must've read "Either/Or" a bit to literally.

I regret even saying anything, but at least it killed 10 minutes on a rest day.

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