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Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts
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Rmsyll2


Jan 28, 2012, 7:37 AM
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Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts
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http://ClimbPilotNC.us/RiggingGalleries.htm

No comments, just photos of what people do at two bolted rim anchors for single-pitch Top-rope routes at one location. You will see rope, cord, webbing, sewn slings, without and with equalization static or dynamic, with and without rub on the rocks; one case of natural, and one of face rings. Collection is increasing and irregularly updated.

.


sittingduck


Jan 28, 2012, 7:54 AM
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Re: [Rmsyll2] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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That's great, every crag should have a page like that.


macblaze


Jan 28, 2012, 9:56 AM
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Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it.

So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?

Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...


(This post was edited by macblaze on Jan 28, 2012, 10:01 AM)


Traches


Jan 28, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Re: [Rmsyll2] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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Nice link!

Call me a noob, but I have no experience setting up top rope anchors. Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out, they'd shock load the other one or fail outright. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using 2?


marc801


Jan 28, 2012, 5:53 PM
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Traches wrote:
Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,...
In good rock this basically doesn't happen. It's an over-emphasized concern among beginners.


marc801


Jan 28, 2012, 5:56 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
http://ClimbPilotNC.us/RiggingGalleries.htm

No comments, just photos of what people do at two bolted rim anchors for single-pitch Top-rope routes at one location. You will see rope, cord, webbing, sewn slings, without and with equalization static or dynamic, with and without rub on the rocks; one case of natural, and one of face rings. Collection is increasing and irregularly updated.

.
I don't get the point of it.


Traches


Jan 28, 2012, 8:27 PM
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marc801 wrote:
Traches wrote:
Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,...
In good rock this basically doesn't happen. It's an over-emphasized concern among beginners.

I realize that, you could hang my truck from most bolts... But if your anchor system is set up to fail if either bolt fails, what do you gain by using 2?

Examples-





dan2see


Jan 28, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Re: [macblaze] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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macblaze wrote:


Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it.

So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?

Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...

In most of the routes in the Heart Creek crags, the anchor is set well below the top of the cliff. Most ropes are 60 meters, so the bolts have to be less than 30 meters high, even though the cliff is 40-50 meters to the top. There is no walk-off, it's all mountain above.

So the only way to get to those anchors is to lead from the bottom. The only way to clean them is to climb, clean, and rap.


marc801


Jan 28, 2012, 10:23 PM
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Traches wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Traches wrote:
Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out,...
In good rock this basically doesn't happen. It's an over-emphasized concern among beginners.

I realize that, you could hang my truck from most bolts... But if your anchor system is set up to fail if either bolt fails, what do you gain by using 2?

Examples-
[img]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Dudes/HowdyDudette%20anchor18%20sm.jpg
[/img]

[img]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Dudes/HowdyDudette%20anchor19%20sm.jpg[/img]

That wasn't your original question, which asked about the ever feared shockloading.


rnevius


Jan 28, 2012, 10:47 PM
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Re: [Traches] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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Traches,

I am missing your point...the first anchor pictured looks like a simple "sliding X" configuration. The second looks like a "quad." Both are completely standard...

Edit: On second glance, it looks like you are also concerned about shock loading in each of these situations. While none should fail outright if one of the bolts was to become compromised, "limiter" knots on the first case wouldn't be a bad idea. The quad has limiter knots by design, which would reduce the shock load in the case of bolt failure.


(This post was edited by rnevius on Jan 28, 2012, 10:54 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jan 29, 2012, 6:52 AM
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Traches wrote:
Nice link!

Call me a noob, but I have no experience setting up top rope anchors. Quite a few of these look like if one of the bolts were to pull out, they'd shock load the other one or fail outright. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of using 2?

I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.


Partner j_ung


Jan 29, 2012, 6:55 AM
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Re: [macblaze] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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macblaze wrote:


Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it.

So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?

Edit: Oh and there were no rap rings, so no, I wasn't going to rap off just the hangers...

Yes, there is a standard procedure. In a nutshell...

Bring a length of static rope and a Gri-gri with you to the crag. Fix the rope to a BFT, and then rap over the edge with the Gri-gri. Set up your anchor and then use the Gri-gri to ascend the rope back to the top. Make sure you have a knot in the rope below you to back up the Gri-gri.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jan 29, 2012, 6:56 AM)


Traches


Jan 29, 2012, 9:06 AM
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Okay, guess I'm just looking at them wrong. It's tough to tell from just a picture how it works, and like I said, I have no experience setting them up.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Jan 29, 2012, 2:55 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:




marc801


Jan 29, 2012, 3:19 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:

[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/ParkingLot/ThinUpper%20anchors6a%20sm.jpg[/image]
Well, it's pretty boring to go through all of them.

I can't tell what's going on with the cluster on the bottom, but the one at the top of the photo is a textbook way to break a biner.


Gmburns2000


Jan 29, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:


I don't know what that red thing is in the lower left-hand corner, but whatever it is it'd scare the crap out of me for sure.

Otherwise...Unimpressed


jt512


Jan 29, 2012, 5:09 PM
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Re: [macblaze] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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macblaze wrote:


Can I ask a stupid question? I've only come across anchors like this once, and while the final anchor was solid, the process was nothing short of comical. Complete with rapping off trees and ropes and anchors everywhere. And then there was cleaning the thing... I must of walked up and down more times than I climbed it.

So what's the 'standard' procedure for a toprope anchor that is over an edge? Is there one?

It looks like someone intended that route to be led.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Jan 29, 2012, 8:57 PM)


Rmsyll2


Jan 29, 2012, 8:39 PM
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As in another reply, face anchors are for lead routes, meaning starting from the bottom with no rope until the leader puts it in something. That route can be led with gear, so does have rappel rings mounted on the face. Two quick-draws will do for such anchors. It is usually done as top-rope, because the anchors can be reached by laying on one's belly, so the rigging is usually what TR climbers carry.

.


Rmsyll2


Jan 29, 2012, 8:48 PM
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One aspect of using two anchors is dividing the load on your gear and the anchor. That is an advantage of equalization, without which the load is not divided.

.


Rmsyll2


Jan 29, 2012, 9:05 PM
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rnevius wrote:
the first anchor pictured looks like a simple "sliding X" configuration. The second looks like a "quad."

Seeing the crossing that makes a Sliding X is difficult sometimes; but that is probably correct there. An Equalette and a Quadralette are noticed by seeing the two stop-knots instead of a single larger Cordelette knot. That one is short, so that it works at numerous anchors at this place, and is easily extended with pairs of something added. That one is used as 3/1, which is most common at that location. The post about various ways to set the belay carabiners was mostly flamed.

.


Rmsyll2


Jan 29, 2012, 9:16 PM
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Re: [Toast_in_the_Machine] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one

Good eye. The upper carabiner is "cross-loaded", meaning sideways, not longways. Each carabiner has a strength rating for that, and is not as good as you want. That happens rather commonly when such a rig is used for rappelling, as is common at that route, which is why it is included in the gallery for that route. I switched it around after taking the photo.

The red cord is a single loop (see single Fisherman's knot) with a Cordelette knot. The yellow webbing is on its own carabiner, because it is either a back-up line, or a tie-in and maybe for starting the rappel. Using a third back-up line is fairly common at that location, and is seen at other galleries.

.


guangzhou


Jan 29, 2012, 9:37 PM
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Nice hodgepodges of system for sure.

As for comments on two bolts being a convenience, the bottom line is that sometime bolts do fails, so the system should be ready if one bolt does fail.

Looking at the photos posted in this thread, most people are making the system much more complicated than it needs to be. One part SERENE leaves out is the KISS idea. Keep things simple.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 29, 2012, 9:47 PM)


Rmsyll2


Jan 29, 2012, 9:43 PM
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j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

That is because they are not included in the galleries. I've done some re-rigging, too, usually accepted cheerfully as a lesson. There is, however, a collection for "death triangle", and putting webbing through the hanger eye. The former includes a Boy Scout leader's rigging; the latter includes a college outdoor program leader, see Att'd. What made me laugh there was the trouble to rig a back-up and cover for the edge, then neglect something as simple as a carabiner at the hangers. I spoke with him, and he said that was how they did it where he climbed.

I've not seen anything that was going to kill anyone, and know of no such accident at that location, but do support the principles of safety suggested by John Long et alia.

.
Attachments: P1130413 sm.JPG (134 KB)


bearbreeder


Jan 29, 2012, 9:56 PM
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why top rope anchors are sooo complicated i have no idea ...

its amazing how some people can go on and on over top rope anchors ...

Tongue


guangzhou


Jan 30, 2012, 2:20 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
why top rope anchors are sooo complicated i have no idea ...

its amazing how some people can go on and on over top rope anchors ...

Tongue
Sly


sungam


Jan 30, 2012, 3:25 AM
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Dear gawd, so my memory of that place wasn't exaggerating the noob levels.Unimpressed


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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:


Well, like I said, I didn't look through all of them. But even that one isn't certain death.


sungam


Jan 30, 2012, 5:16 AM
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j_ung wrote:
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:

[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/ParkingLot/ThinUpper%20anchors6a%20sm.jpg[/image]

Well, like I said, I didn't look through all of them. But even that one isn't certain death.
Not certain death? Are you kidding me? Look how rusty that top bolt is!

Mismatched bolt and hanger? YORE GUNNA DIE!


lena_chita
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Jan 30, 2012, 5:43 AM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised that, of the few I looking through, I didn't see anything really fucked up.

Can you help a n00b and give me your feedback on this one:



LOL!

I think there was more than one crossloaded 'biner if you look through all of the pictures. As a side note, I do wonder how they decided which bolt of the two to put an extra biner+webbing on? Did they flip a coin?

Obviously not an imminent death waiting to happen (after all, this is exactly why you are using two bolts, instead of one), but it is a very good illustration of things that could, and do happen to unattended anchors.




As a general thing, I like the idea of having a lot of anchor pictures from the same route, showing what different people do. Good collection of photos.

And while i didn't look through all photos, most of them looked O.K. My main thought on the entire collection of photos was HOLLY OVERKILL BATMAN!!!!!

Seems like quite a few people do not consider two bomber bolts to be enough, and they put a 3rd point to a BFT, or back up two bolts with gear placements or wrapping a 3rd point around big rocks. like this one.


Two 'biners to each bolt, two slings -- O.K., I am following along-- but then there is that rope?



The one had me baffled:


Oh, and I really liked the gear tags on this one:



Toast_in_the_Machine


Jan 30, 2012, 6:41 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Oh, and I really liked the gear tags on this one:

Like a mattress?

Edit to fix quote


(This post was edited by Toast_in_the_Machine on Jan 30, 2012, 7:28 AM)


qwert


Jan 30, 2012, 6:46 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
Oh, and I really liked the gear tags on this one:
WTF?

I havent looked at all of them yet, but so far i would say all of them should easily hold a climber (and his/her offensively obese grandmother in her offensively large pickup truck) with some strength to spare.

But i wouldnt climb on any single one of the bunch - not because they are not strong enough, but rather because of what such anchors imply about the persons that constructed them, and their skills…

qwert


marc801


Jan 30, 2012, 7:29 AM
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qwert wrote:
But i wouldnt climb on any single one of the bunch - not because they are not strong enough, but rather because of what such anchors imply about the persons that constructed them, and their skills…
"Well, let's see now......it says in this here book I'm supposed to put a biner and sling on each bolt-in thing...OK...check....now what's next step?"


sungam


Jan 30, 2012, 7:44 AM
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qwert wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Oh, and I really liked the gear tags on this one:
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/SchoolRoom/PlaceBet%20anchors10%20sm.jpg[/image]
WTF?

I havent looked at all of them yet, but so far i would say all of them should easily hold a climber (and his/her offensively obese grandmother in her offensively large pickup truck) with some strength to spare.

But i wouldnt climb on any single one of the bunch - not because they are not strong enough, but rather because of what such anchors imply about the persons that constructed them, and their skills…

qwert
My feelings exactly.


atdrennen


Jan 30, 2012, 8:00 AM
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Aside from the tags, just noticed they have the biner hooked round the bolt. Looks like it'll cross load the spine.....not that the other wouldn't hold, or that you could generate catastrofic forces on top rope...

I might climb on it - but I wouldn't let that rigger belay me.


macblaze


Jan 30, 2012, 8:39 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
As in another reply, face anchors are for lead routes, meaning starting from the bottom with no rope until the leader puts it in something. That route can be led with gear, so does have rappel rings mounted on the face. Two quick-draws will do for such anchors. It is usually done as top-rope, because the anchors can be reached by laying on one's belly, so the rigging is usually what TR climbers carry.

.

The one I encountered was a 5.6 and while there may have been a place for one or two pieces, leading it would definitely be more like free soloing...


markc


Jan 30, 2012, 9:45 AM
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I'm a fan of the way-too-many-biners rigging here:



Better safe than sorry, but you have to know where to draw that line.


JimTitt


Jan 30, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Both bolts are in the same cliff, isn´t this potentially dangerous if it fell down?


acorneau


Jan 30, 2012, 5:50 PM
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I think someone was going for extra credit on these...









sungam


Jan 31, 2012, 2:18 AM
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What's up with the prussics? Do people do this (other then what I assume is one dude). Is it meant to absorb some energy or something?


acorneau


Jan 31, 2012, 6:02 AM
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sungam wrote:
What's up with the prussics? Do people do this (other then what I assume is one dude). Is it meant to absorb some energy or something?

I'm pretty sure it comes from the rescue rigging world as that's the only other place I've seen this kind of thing. Supposedly the Prusiks are used as some sort of "tension indicator" as they will start to slip at a some point.

But honestly... two pieces of 7/16" static rope isn't enough?!?

Edit to add: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1824803


(This post was edited by acorneau on Jan 31, 2012, 6:06 AM)


Rmsyll2


Jan 31, 2012, 7:38 PM
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sungam wrote:
Dear gawd, so my memory of that place wasn't exaggerating the noob levels.


This and similar comments here are only despising beginners for being beginners, which is cruel, imo, and also ignoring that this is the Beginner forum.

.

(This post was edited by Rmsyll2 on Jan 31, 2012, 9:34 PM)


Rmsyll2


Jan 31, 2012, 8:04 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
Th[is] one had me baffled:

Rather creative, imo, given not enough length of runner to go to the rope itself: the single blue sling is backing up both carabiners for the rigging, to back-up for either anchor blowing out. These third lines are a) Trad tradition; b) recognition that the anchors are not new; c) pro forma cover for liability for group leaders. In first one copied here, note extra width of webbing, common for Boy Scouts.



In reply to:
Oh, and I really liked the gear tags on this one:


They were a nice couple who literally stopped at the store on the way, with no time left to lose getting on a route.

.


Rmsyll2


Jan 31, 2012, 8:35 PM
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atdrennen wrote:
Aside from the tags, just noticed they have the biner hooked round the bolt. Looks like it'll cross load the spine.

It cannot take a load, because for these anchors, two equal lengths of anything will not be equalized. One side will be slack, as shows rather well in that image. If there were a cordelette knot, as is done at this location, it would only shorten both sides.


In reply to:
I might climb on it - but I wouldn't let that rigger belay me.

No necessary connection, and this is another example of despising beginners for being beginners. There may be more people climbing indoors now than outside, until those same ones finally go outside. They may be expert with belay, as well as very skilled for movement. But rigging is not, so far as I've encountered, taught at indoor climbing facilities; and it is comically recurring that someone will show up with shoes, harness, rope, maybe two slings, and probably not enough carabiners to rig anyway. I recently loaned two lockers to a nice couple who had specifically asked a director of the wall where they had been learning what they would need. The fact that he is the current president of the state climbing association makes that case especially bitter imo.

.


Rmsyll2


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markc wrote:
I'm a fan of the way-too-many-biners rigging....Better safe than sorry, but you have to know where to draw that line.

He was quite old, and was climbing back in the days of Goldline rope. He said that was how they did it to be safe: opposing pairs, of what they had. He was out with his grandkids, showing them about climbing. They all had a wonderful time. He said that if he did get back into climbing, he would get new carabiners. He is not the only one to keep the carabiners separate for each sling, another point of interest there. And for those anchors and that rim, two equal slings do seem to equalize.

.


Rmsyll2


Jan 31, 2012, 9:30 PM
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acorneau wrote:
I think someone was going for extra credit on these...

The first image is of a rig made by a climbing shop owner for $35. The black static rope is long enough for any likely setting. The red cords provide a way to adjust tension for true equalization, because they are taking the load for their length. He was very grateful for having it, but had not used it much.

The second image is a Quadralette made (and re-tied per route, rather than kept as a common tool) by an engineer, chosen after extensive research and observations. There is a special pad between the rigging and the rope, which he is very proud of for saving abrasion at a critical part of the system. He is very conscious and concerned about "galvanic corrosion" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
visible there as rust on the bolt but not the hanger, so always uses a back-up static line, properly connected to the rope with its own carabiner.

Third image is the same idea as first, made from an article he read, and placed for the photo. It took the guy a long time fiddling with the setting, which he couldn't really judge with it on the rim, and couldn't manipulate over the rim either. He eventually got on rappel to fix it with the rope in place.

'acorneau' adds that the two lengths of static rope would be enough. Yes, and could be equally equalized if one line used a Clove Hitch instead of a connection loop. However, that use of two pieces of rope is not seen at this location. A long loop of rope with end loops, or very long webbing tied as a loop for the route, is used with a cordelette knot.

.

(This post was edited by Rmsyll2 on Feb 1, 2012, 6:22 AM)


marc801


Jan 31, 2012, 10:57 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
acorneau wrote:
I think someone was going for extra credit on these...

The first image is of a rig made by a climbing shop owner for $35. The black static rope is long enough for any likely setting. The red cords provide a way to adjust tension for true equalization, because they are taking the load for their length. He was very grateful for having it, but had not used it much.

For perhaps the 1000th time, you do realize that for the this situation of good anchor bolts for a top rope the potential forces involved are not large, that "true equalization" is not necessary, and the vast majority of the examples are needlessly complex and over engineered, yes? In fact, some are so complex that it's difficult to tell if they are actually correct and safe.


sungam


Feb 1, 2012, 12:48 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
sungam wrote:
Dear gawd, so my memory of that place wasn't exaggerating the noob levels.


This and similar comments here are only despising beginners for being beginners, which is cruel, imo, and also ignoring that this is the Beginner forum.

.
I use "noob" The same way PP Jeremy uses noob. You don't have to be a beginner to be a noob, and not all noob as beginners. Maybe I should have used a different phrase.


Rmsyll2


Feb 1, 2012, 7:01 AM
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marc801 wrote:
For perhaps the 1000th time,

For about the 1758th time, you have posted for the main purpose of declaring yourself to be the ideal to which others could only aspire. What you do and what you know is all there should be.

Having spoken with so many people at this location that four (I think) are named Aaron, it is obvious that people who are trying to climb encompass the usual variety found everywhere among numbers of people. Some of them are able to deal with possibilities and complexity beyond what you seem to be limited to. Where you and 'bearbreeder' and others get the notion of telling everyone what they should and should not do, you will not be able, or feel any need, to explain.

.


blueeyedclimber


Feb 1, 2012, 7:24 AM
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acorneau wrote:
I think someone was going for extra credit on these...







I work at a summer climbing camp and another counselor and I used to have contests on who could make the most bompproof anchor. I often wonder if someone took a picture and put it up on rc.com. Let me know if you see a pic a single top rope anchor that uses two 150 foot static lines, approximately eight anchor legs, and 17 biners. Cool

Josh


markc


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Rmsyll2 wrote:
markc wrote:
I'm a fan of the way-too-many-biners rigging....Better safe than sorry, but you have to know where to draw that line.

He was quite old, and was climbing back in the days of Goldline rope. He said that was how they did it to be safe: opposing pairs, of what they had. He was out with his grandkids, showing them about climbing. They all had a wonderful time. He said that if he did get back into climbing, he would get new carabiners. He is not the only one to keep the carabiners separate for each sling, another point of interest there. And for those anchors and that rim, two equal slings do seem to equalize.

As I said, better safe than sorry. I'd prefer to see overblown anchors rather than subpar anchors any day of the week. If that's the standard he's used to and what he's comfortable with, more power to him. That said, I think most would agree that you wouldn't compromise the safety of that party if you cut the number of biners in half. YMMV.

There was a guy I used to bump into who rigged static line to a tree, connected the middle of the run to webbing, then swapped back to static line for going over the edge and creating his maser point. He did that for each limb, and had two opposed biners at each connection. Every toprope he rigged used 10 carabiners, two lengths of webbing, and at least three pieces of static rope. I didn't even need to see him to know he was at the crag. Was it safe? Sure. Was it excessively convoluted with more links than I liked? Sure.


acorneau


Feb 1, 2012, 7:50 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
I work at a summer climbing camp and another counselor and I used to have contests on who could make the most bompproof anchor. I often wonder if someone took a picture and put it up on rc.com. Let me know if you see a pic a single top rope anchor that uses two 150 foot static lines, approximately eight anchor legs, and 17 biners. Cool

Josh


Picture?!?

Psshh... they got it on VIDEO!

http://www.youtube.com/...;v=bsAiOYXC-k0#t=80s


blueeyedclimber


Feb 1, 2012, 7:55 AM
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acorneau wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I work at a summer climbing camp and another counselor and I used to have contests on who could make the most bompproof anchor. I often wonder if someone took a picture and put it up on rc.com. Let me know if you see a pic a single top rope anchor that uses two 150 foot static lines, approximately eight anchor legs, and 17 biners. Cool

Josh


Picture?!?

Psshh... they got it on VIDEO!

http://www.youtube.com/...;v=bsAiOYXC-k0#t=80s

NICE! I always thought they would get Brad Pitt to play me though. Unimpressed

Josh


lena_chita
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Feb 1, 2012, 8:06 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
Th[is] one had me baffled:

Rather creative, imo, given not enough length of runner to go to the rope itself: the single blue sling is backing up both carabiners for the rigging, to back-up for either anchor blowing out.


Creative-- yes. Completely unnecessary- also yes.

Do you wrap a bungee cord around the bumper of your car? NO? How come? It would be a backup for the bumper randomly falling off...

And the way it is set up, if either bolt did blow out, it would be the other bolt catching the weight, and not that triangular-configuration sling, because it would be still too slack, by the time the second bolt caught the weight.



Rmsyll2 wrote:
These third lines are a) Trad tradition; b) recognition that the anchors are not new; c) pro forma cover for liability for group leaders. In first one copied here, note extra width of webbing, common for Boy Scouts.

a) The whole point of installing these anchors is to get away from the 'trad tradition' of anchoring to the trees and thus contributing to killing the vegetation at the top of the cliff in popular areas, and clifftop erosion. And I don't know any competent gear climbers who would consider backing up a bomber 2-bolt anchor by a 3rd point, just because "it is a tradition" that ideal gear anchors have 3 points.

b) how "not new" are those bolted anchors? And has there been a rush of bolt failures in the area? As far as I know, the area is not known for outrageously-fast corrosion rate, and the bolts look pretty new to me...

c) "common for boy scouts"-- now, that is a great rationalization for something... And pro forma cover for liability -- yeah, great!



I know your intent was to just have a library documenting the anchors you have seen. Great idea.

Maybe as a side benefit you will also get to see what is a good solid anchor, and what is a ridiculously-festooned over-engineered anchor that takes way too much time, with no added benefit whatsoever.


(This post was edited by lena_chita on Feb 1, 2012, 8:07 AM)


markc


Feb 1, 2012, 8:15 AM
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acorneau wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
I work at a summer climbing camp and another counselor and I used to have contests on who could make the most bompproof anchor. I often wonder if someone took a picture and put it up on rc.com. Let me know if you see a pic a single top rope anchor that uses two 150 foot static lines, approximately eight anchor legs, and 17 biners. Cool

Josh


Picture?!?

Psshh... they got it on VIDEO!

http://www.youtube.com/...;v=bsAiOYXC-k0#t=80s

There were some really awesome videos submitted that year! If I recall correctly, the Vertical World and Shallow Water Soloing submissions were pretty funny.


markc


Feb 1, 2012, 8:43 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
I know your intent was to just have a library documenting the anchors you have seen. Great idea.

Maybe as a side benefit you will also get to see what is a good solid anchor, and what is a ridiculously-festooned over-engineered anchor that takes way too much time, with no added benefit whatsoever.

I liked it better when he wrote:

Rmsyll2 wrote:
No comments, just photos of what people do at two bolted rim anchors for single-pitch Top-rope routes at one location.

I agree that you reach a point of diminishing returns if you keep adding to a solid anchor. While it doesn't necessarily hurt, every new component requires additional time to rig, it may make a quick visual inspection more difficult, and it's beyond what is adequate for the task.


bearbreeder


Feb 1, 2012, 9:01 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
Where you and 'bearbreeder' and others get the notion of telling everyone what they should and should not do, you will not be able, or feel any need, to explain.

.


ahh poor baby ,,, upset are we ...

i rarely criticize peoples anchors these days ... unless its obviously very dangerous

but then you really need to ask yourself why most guides, who set up more anchors for TR than anyone here does for clients, keep it simple

you generally dont see em teach any fancy anchors for a TR anchor on 2 bolts to new clients ... and they have liability in what they do and teach ...

maybe you know beter

for some reason hardcore newbie TRers get all insulted when they cant show off their hardcore TR anchor skills

Tongue


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 1, 2012, 9:03 AM)


bill413


Feb 1, 2012, 11:56 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
Third image is the same idea as first, made from an article he read, and placed for the photo. It took the guy a long time fiddling with the setting, which he couldn't really judge with it on the rim, and couldn't manipulate over the rim either. He eventually got on rappel to fix it with the rope in place.


I remember an instructor saying "how would you like 20-30% more time for climbing?"
The answer was to speed up your anchor building.


qwert


Feb 1, 2012, 12:23 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:

a whole bunch of Rmsyll2 quotes that essentially boil down to:
"Dont be mean to beginners in the beginners room!"


Dude, the Problem is not that we are all assholes, that just come in here to make fun of "n00bs", the problem is that there are dozens (hundreds?) of beginners that totally overthink and overenigneer something that - with just a little understanding of the subject 'climbing' - is really easy.

Its not that those anchors are deathtraps - they arent - but the mindset behind such abominations surely is!

Yes, we all have started small at some point.
We all have made mistakes, took some stupid ideas and ran with them, probably even posted them in the internet (or shown it to someone in the know, before the days of the 'net) expecting a pat on the back and a nice candy cane for our clever invention.

Guess what - the pat and the candy cane never came - except from people as clueless as us then - instead we got a slap in the face and cod liver oil Crazy

Yes, some of us sometimes use the wrong tone - i know i do - but please understand that
a) if you are here for a while, and see "look at my clever inventshun!!11!!!" thread No. 12398798217312983129 you get bitter and bored
b) some of those abominations are just too funny to not make fun of them.

But the real Problem lies much deeper - and now feel free to call me racist, or whatever - its the stupid "american style" toproping!

the whole idea of "i rig up some overengineered crap out of a shitton of static rope, and throw down a rope, and then me and my buddies are 100% safe while we gang rope that poor rock" is so utterly wrong… (and thats not even taking into account such strange concepts as the preservation of rare cliff side plants)

If you want to toprope, you go with someone who leads the route for you and sets up the toprope for you, on an anchor below the rim. The whole toproping from above shit just attracts idiots who cant and/or wont learn anything about climbing, safety, and so on, luring them in with a false sense of security, and giving them the bragging rights of being a climber.

And no - i am not an elitist asshole who wants climbing to stay his own exclusive club, but that whole boyscout-university-commercialfuckwad-soccermomsorganizedafternoon-bringyourownbeer toproping shit is not the way to get people into climbing!

I dont know how many people i have taught about climbing and/or introduced to it, but yes, allmost all of them have been on toprope at the beginning, but it always was with the proper "education" around it, i.e. how does the rope get up there, how do i set up that anchor, how do i learn about it, why should i NOT climb over the rim, etc.

qwert


csproul


Feb 1, 2012, 12:36 PM
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qwert wrote:
le idea of "i rig up some overengineered crap out of a shitton of static rope, and throw down a rope, and then me and my buddies are 100% safe while we gang rope that poor rock" is so utterly wrong… (and thats not even taking into account such strange concepts as the preservation of rare cliff side plants)

If you want to toprope, you go with someone who leads the route for you and sets up the toprope for you, on an anchor below the rim. The whole toproping from above shit just attracts idiots who cant and/or wont learn anything about climbing, safety, and so on, luring them in with a false sense of security, and giving them the bragging rights of being a climber.

I hear what you're saying, but this area (Pilot Mtn) has a lot of crappy rock. While there are some quality leadable lines, there are also many routes that just aren't practical or safe to lead.


curt


Feb 1, 2012, 10:05 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
Both bolts are in the same cliff, isn´t this potentially dangerous if it fell down?

Only if you're beneath it. Cool

Curt


lena_chita
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Feb 2, 2012, 10:42 AM
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curt wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Both bolts are in the same cliff, isn´t this potentially dangerous if it fell down?

Only if you're beneath it. Cool

Curt

Hmm, If the cliff top is high, and you are standing on top of it when it falls, I am pretty sure that is dangerous, too.


Partner cracklover


Feb 2, 2012, 2:36 PM
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Rmsyll2 has argued vociferously and repeatedly over his entire time on rc.com in favor of bad systems that are needlessly complicated.

I'm not going to respond in detail to all of this. But I will say one thing: In climbing, more than enough is sometimes too much. And unlike in a toproping situation, there may be unfortunate ramifications if you consistently attempt to overdo things.

A link that may be useful:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ew_flat;post=2321702

Cheers,

GO


Partner cracklover


Feb 2, 2012, 2:45 PM
Post #63 of 65 (2280 views)
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Re: [lena_chita] Reply: [lena_chita] [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
Maybe as a side benefit you will also get to see what is a good solid anchor, and what is a ridiculously-festooned over-engineered anchor that takes way too much time, with no added benefit whatsoever.

Don't hold your breath.

GLaugh


JimTitt


Feb 2, 2012, 3:45 PM
Post #64 of 65 (2270 views)
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Posts: 986

Re: [lena_chita] Top-rope rigging at two rim bolts [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
curt wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Both bolts are in the same cliff, isn´t this potentially dangerous if it fell down?

Only if you're beneath it. Cool

Curt

Hmm, If the cliff top is high, and you are standing on top of it when it falls, I am pretty sure that is dangerous, too.

Nononono! You should use Hmmm... when you mean the poster is talking utter rubbish and is completely wrong on a factual matter which anyone with the intelligence if a marmot knows but you don´t actually want to to call him a dumbo because one is brought up to be polite, especially to the less favoured.

Anyway , back to the cliff. If a butterfly beating it´s wings can start the odd hurricane or two who knows what overloading a cliff might do, maybe set off Yellowstone into a super volcano which destroys the world. `The careless American topropers screw the rest of us´ , another load of bad headlines for the Yankee imperialists!


Rmsyll2


Feb 2, 2012, 5:41 PM
Post #65 of 65 (2250 views)
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lena_chita wrote:
if either bolt did blow out, it would be the other bolt catching the weight, and not that triangular-configuration sling, because it would be still too slack, by the time the second bolt caught the weight.

If either bolt blew out, the blue sling etc. would become slack, and be back-up if the other also then blew out, which is what back-up means.

There is a general criticism here of the thinking of the more involved riggings; but that one shows thinking that is quite creative imo. Note that there is only the single but very strong sling: not overdone in that way, sufficient and then some for the purpose, which is safety. Criticizing people for trying to be safe (which Lena is not doing) is imo taking cheap shots to boost oneself.


In reply to:
Maybe as a side benefit you will also get to see what is a good solid anchor, and what is a ridiculously-festooned over-engineered anchor that takes way too much time, with no added benefit whatsoever.

Bingo! And without a word. But only for those who do look at enough to begin to make comparisons and then make some judgements. And then, make some anchors.

.


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