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Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength
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abrock5


Feb 13, 2012, 6:38 PM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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I went to the doctor's office today for a check up. For now, they just did some blood work. Everything they tested was normal, except for slightly elevated CPK numbers. Although this could indicate several serious conditions, the levels that mine measured at are more likely muscles recovering from a workout. He is going to check again in a week just to make sure they've gone back down, which I fully expect them to.

Honestly, I feel completely normal now. Barring a weird result next week, I'm just going assume that it was due to higher than normal muscle fatigue...either from a lack of sleep or "bonking" as someone had mentioned. As I am still relatively new to climbing, I was just curious if this phenomenon was a common occurrence. I didn't mean to imply that I had a life threatening condition, but I can assure you I wasn't exaggerating in the least. I couldn't grip ANYTHING! We'll see how a return trip to the gym goes, and hopefully all will be back to normal.


billl7


Feb 13, 2012, 9:26 PM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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I'm reminded of a time when I lay shivering in my damp sleeping bag after five hard hours high on a mountain without eating or drinking all the while. A quart of water, about five big handfuls of trail mix, and then I was literally toasty for the rest of the night.

The water was freezing cold - hard to convince my shivering self I really needed to drink it all.

David Fasulo in "Self-Rescue" mentions working himself hard for a day without eating/drinking enough to the point of not being able to see or talk at a belay ledge two pitches up. Talk about sudden and complete loss of strength!

Good to get the doctor's opinion. Maybe watch the fluids and food as well (edit: in addition to lack of sleep)?

Note: I may be mixing up unrelated problems in the above without realizing. And I know there are medical issues that could possibly be at play.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 13, 2012, 9:35 PM)


Kartessa


Feb 14, 2012, 4:30 AM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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How high is "slightly"?

CK (CPK) levels of 150-200iu/l is the normal range with some individuals having normal muscle function with as high as 400iu/l (including the after-workout crowd)

High levels can indicate muscle or heart disease so don't fuck around

I'm no expert, far from it. My only knowledge stems from dozens of hours of google searches, and hours of harassing my family doctor about my sons 20000iu/l CK results (this is how we found out he has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy). YMM(will)V


(This post was edited by Kartessa on Feb 14, 2012, 4:49 AM)


redonkulus


Feb 14, 2012, 6:34 AM
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Re: [flesh] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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I've experienced the same thing before at the gym, after a poor night's sleep, and very very little food all day. Warm up and everything is going fine, fall clipping the chains on an onsite of an 11d, and then all the sudden BONK. The next route I did was a 5.7, and I hung twice. Not trying to talk about grades, but that's a massive loss of strength, in almost no time. But, while I chose to do nothing about it because I realized I was just bonking, your case sounds slightly different since the symptoms persisted for a while.


abrock5


Feb 14, 2012, 6:41 AM
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Re: [redonkulus] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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How long did it take you to recover from bonking? And did you feel it all over or mainly in your arms?

Also, to a previous post. My CPK was 430 so nothing too high at all. The doc said it was elevated, but he also said he wasn't really that concerned about it. Only when it reaches 4 digits is it really a sign of a problem. He still wanted me to go back just to make sure it returned to a baseline level.


redonkulus


Feb 14, 2012, 9:34 AM
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I didn't climb the next day, so I can't say if I woulda climbed well, but I didn't feel too bad. And actually, I ate a Snickers or something and about 30 minutes later I was able to do some boulder problems. Still couldn't do anything that was longer than a few moves though. It seemed in my case that it was mainly my endurance that went out. Hard, short stuff was alright, but even 6-7 jugs in a row had me completely pumped out of my mind. Felt fairly tired all over, but mainly in the forearms when I was climbing.


tH1e-swiN1e


Feb 15, 2012, 8:18 AM
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Re: [redonkulus] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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Sounds kind of like flash pump to me. Dehydration could be a factor as well.

And no offense but if you project 10b you shouldnt be "training" on a hang board. I know more people injured from hang boards than anything else.


redonkulus


Feb 15, 2012, 10:03 AM
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Re: [tH1e-swiN1e] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
Sounds kind of like flash pump to me. Dehydration could be a factor as well.

And no offense but if you project 10b you shouldnt be "training" on a hang board. I know more people injured from hang boards than anything else.

Me? Nah, I know flash pumps, and that was not one. Most times with a flash pump, you'll feel it during the route prior, which I did not. Even flashpumped, with 10-15 minutes rest in between that route and the next (climbing with two partners) I wouldn't expect to drop almost 5 NUMBER grades in ability. I felt about ready to fall asleep on the floor of the gym all of the sudden. It was probably a combination of dehydration, lack of sleep, lack of food.

Agree about hangboards though. I'm scared of mine a lil bit. Plus, its not much fun.


abrock5


Feb 15, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Re: [tH1e-swiN1e] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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I'm thinking a combination of lack of food, water, and sleep were the culprit here. Am I correct in assuming this is bonking? I am kind of doubting a flash pump as I've been really pumped before after a long day, and this did not feel that way at all.

Going off topic here, but it's an interesting point you bring up about the hang board. I have basically been training on one since about a month into my climbing. I had read all of the warnings about injuries, but I thought the risk was worth it since I live so far away from a gym or crag. It was about the only way for me to train regularly more than once per week. I started slowly on the jugs and larger pockets (and shut it down if anything start to hurt), but by the end I was going pretty hard at it. I have the Metolius 3D and was living on the shallow 4 fingers pockets. I could do pull ups and lock offs on those like it was going out of style. Same for 3 finger pockets and the deep 2 fingers. Slopers were no problem either...even added a 10lb weight belt. My usual work out would last about half an hour.

OK, enough with my eBragging...I do have an actual point. I feel like I was progressing pretty good on the hang board, but do you think it was actually slowing my progress? Also, based on what I was doing training, do you think I should be climbing beyond where I am now? I know it's only gym ratings, but I can climb about half of their 10b's and the others are 2-3 session projects for me.


erisspirit


Feb 15, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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abrock5 wrote:
OK, enough with my eBragging...I do have an actual point. I feel like I was progressing pretty good on the hang board, but do you think it was actually slowing my progress? Also, based on what I was doing training, do you think I should be climbing beyond where I am now? I know it's only gym ratings, but I can climb about half of their 10b's and the others are 2-3 session projects for me.

I can barely do a couple pullups, and it doesn't hinder me doing 10bs. I'm not a big anti hangboard person, but technique will get you well past 10b without strength really becoming an issue. I'd still say 90% of the moves I can't pull are technique problems and not strength issues. The easiest way to work on technique is to just climb more, which can be tough sometimes.

on topic - I hope all the tests come back normal! good luck!


tH1e-swiN1e


Feb 15, 2012, 1:23 PM
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Re: [erisspirit] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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erisspirit wrote:
I can barely do a couple pullups, and it doesn't hinder me doing 10bs. I'm not a big anti hangboard person, but technique will get you well past 10b without strength really becoming an issue. I'd still say 90% of the moves I can't pull are technique problems and not strength issues. The easiest way to work on technique is to just climb more, which can be tough sometimes.

on topic - I hope all the tests come back normal! good luck!

Completely agree. Dont get me wrong, I LOVE my hang board workouts but wouldnt suggest them to anyone who isnt well into their climbing years. I feel its great for contact strength etc but like you said, no technique involved. As we all know climbing involves more than doing pull-ups in tiny crimps.


abrock5


Feb 15, 2012, 1:40 PM
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Re: [erisspirit] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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Thanks erisspirit! I have one more blood test Monday just to make sure things are back to normal, but I feel much better now. I'll climb again tomorrow, so that will be the real test, but I expect things to be completely normal.

As to the rest of your post, that's amazing! I could go do 30 straight pull ups and all kinds of other finger board exercises right now, but still struggle w/10b. You've given me a lot to think about/work on regarding technique. Appreciate the advice!


flesh


Feb 21, 2012, 11:50 PM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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My favorite anti bonk climbing food. PRO BAR before climbing and water, during, I drink this

http://pacifichealthlabs.com/accelerade-advanced-sports-drink.asp

I like mountain berry and orange.

I'll drink it from the beginning of my workout till the end. If it's a long workout, like a 3 hour bouldering comp recently, I'll make two servings in a big bottle or two smaller bottles. For the longer sessions I'll also throw in a couple of their gel packs.

I don't drink the after drink because I'll always eat a meal within half an hour.

I only recently discovered this, I've tried alot of things, it truly makes a difference. Mainly I've noticed that I can climb just below my limit maybe 50% longer when compared to a regular energy bar and water. Also, I can climb at or close to my limit every other day consistently. Before, I could climb every other day for about two weeks and would have to take two to three days off for full recovery. Cumatively, over years, these minor differences can make a huge difference. Plus, you get more time on the rock, to lock in your technique. Particularly, I believe that being able to climb 50% longer just below my limit will be powerful because it gives me much more time to practice movement at a high level, allowing for more advanced muscle memory and technique to be assimilated.

Psychologically, when you find yourself seeing big ups and downs in your performance, understand that this is normal. I have days where I couldn't do a particular v8 and then after just one rest day, for no apparent reason, done that problem and another 13 v8's in one session. This happened to me 2 weeks ago. It's important to expect and be ready for the unexpected. Allow for variation, don't let the lows get you down and don't hold yourself back from being great when things come together. These extremes are part of the game and can be focused to service your progression. For me it's absolutely critical that that I recognize this pattern. Use this experience as a tool and apply what you've learned going forward. No matter how poorly your climbing that day. On the good days, don't hold yourself back because of what others expect, let yourself get engulfed in the excitement and passion and blow the lid off!

When It's a especially weak day for me I use it to my benefit. Use this day to practive technique and movement which is best learned by doing. Cover as much ez ground as possible and just feel your body from head to toe. Pay attention how your fingers, elbows, shoulders, core, upper legs, lower legs, feet, and toes feel. Notice/practice variations in breathing. Experiment with climbing as fast as you can, then as slow as you can, which one seemed more efficient? Was it more efficient because it always is or just on that specific climb? How do the textures feel on your fingers? Are you over gripping? Could you execute the move you just did more efficiently? How would you know if was more efficient? Maybe you could make it more fun? Experiment, jump with both hands sideways 4 feet, do it again, but this time, smoothly, and as you swing your feet over place the quickly and perfectly, etc.


ceebo


Feb 22, 2012, 4:51 PM
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Re: [erisspirit] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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erisspirit wrote:
abrock5 wrote:
OK, enough with my eBragging...I do have an actual point. I feel like I was progressing pretty good on the hang board, but do you think it was actually slowing my progress? Also, based on what I was doing training, do you think I should be climbing beyond where I am now? I know it's only gym ratings, but I can climb about half of their 10b's and the others are 2-3 session projects for me.

I can barely do a couple pullups, and it doesn't hinder me doing 10bs. I'm not a big anti hangboard person, but technique will get you well past 10b without strength really becoming an issue. I'd still say 90% of the moves I can't pull are technique problems and not strength issues. The easiest way to work on technique is to just climb more, which can be tough sometimes.

This is not right. It realy bugs me at how little validation is given to the improtence of strength. It is jsut as important as technique. All routes requires X ammount of strength, technique simply reduces that X amount not eliminate it.

Good tehnique is (imo) the ability to keep the body as close to cog/base support as possible to reduce physical strain. When not possible, the climber then has to use a move that requires the least amount of strength. A lay back to achieve a out of reach high step before rocking over is a good example of using strength to get back into a good base support before the next upward movement.

Many easier routes allow the climber to easier stay wirthin the base support or cog (like shifting weight over one foot to the next as you go up the wall). Such climbing is very poor preperation for harder climbing. You can not stay within good base support all the time... you really need to learn the techniques that require more strength.

As the routes progress the opertunity to stay within good base support reduce. However.. it is more than posible that such routes are still at a low enough level where the holds are big and positave. This allows a climber to learn the techniques required to climb outside desired base support etc that you will find in much harder climbing.

Ultimately what you end up with is a climber who has a great foundation of technique but not the physical side to go with it.

The technical differances between 7a/b and 8a are really nothing worth noting.

Any person who can consistently climb f7a has enough technique where strength/endurance training will do wonders for them.. to 8a standard at least.

Endlessly doing low level climbing and thinking technique will some day shoot you into the stars is rediculess. Please.. any climber out their wanting to improve, work both technique and strength, get onto high 6 range to 7a climbing asap.. the technique required their is the foundations to all above climbing.. since it involves all aspects of it that low level climbing simply does NOT.


puerto


Feb 23, 2012, 5:14 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
flesh wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it, just go climb again and take it easy, start off with super easy routes and report back.

I always suspected that you were an idiot. Now I know for sure.

Jay

Sometimes when I wander back in here I wonder what combination of narcissism, bitterness, and cowardice could create an online persona like Jay's???

I mean, if he behaved this way in everyday life he'd get his ass kicked on a daily basis..

Maybe in real life he's very careful in his choice of victims?

Best of luck man, you're gonna need it.


jt512


Feb 23, 2012, 6:38 PM
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Re: [puerto] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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puerto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
flesh wrote:

I wouldn't worry about it, just go climb again and take it easy, start off with super easy routes and report back.

I always suspected that you were an idiot. Now I know for sure.

Jay

Sometimes when I wander back in here I wonder what combination of narcissism, bitterness, and cowardice could create an online persona like Jay's???

I mean, if he behaved this way in everyday life he'd get his ass kicked on a daily basis..

Maybe in real life he's very careful in his choice of victims?

Best of luck man, you're gonna need it.

I'm not going to need as much luck as the guy who ignores his serious medical symptoms, the guy who tells him to ignore them, or the guy who agrees with that guy.

"Good luck" to you, too.

*plonk*

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 23, 2012, 6:38 PM)


MonsterInBeef


Feb 23, 2012, 11:45 PM
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Re: [abrock5] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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Good on you for seeking professional medical attention. Let the the guys who suffered through med school handle those sort of issues. To be on the pro-active side you might want to do a search on rhabdomyolysis and see if that makes sense as its often accomplied w/ elevated CK levels.


puerto


Feb 29, 2012, 6:40 AM
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Re: [jt512] Sudden and Complete Loss of Strength [In reply to]
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Jay being the intellectual-giant-in-his-own mind that he is, I was looking for some kind of intelligent justification of his "might makes right" philosophy, a personal philosophy demonstrated by years of behavior on this website.

Yet all I got was a willful evasion of the fact that he could have made the exact same point in a much nicer and more constructive way.

Fitting I guess..


(This post was edited by puerto on Feb 29, 2012, 6:42 AM)

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