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boadman


Feb 13, 2012, 1:35 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.


Partner rgold


Feb 13, 2012, 7:18 PM
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Re: [boadman] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.


iknowfear


Feb 14, 2012, 1:00 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
Great post, thanks for spending the time on that, rgold.

I think one of the things I need to make a priority to get is some sort of tubbing for pullup and other exercise assistance. I have gone through cycles of trying to increase the number of pullups I can do, but the rep of 1 or 2 has always put too much stress on my body and I usually stop before I realy make any progress because me elbos start feeling tweaky.

These are the sorts of bands that I'm thinking of, but I'm having problems finding places that carry them or online places based in Canada. I've used them in the past and they're pretty handy:

http://rubberbanditz.com/pull-up-bands/

I have never thought of using them to help toward levers though, which is a great idea.

regarding pullup and forearm strenght: Think about a pullup bar with ball-bearing ...
like the (aptly named) turn till burn. It is also easy to improvise a turning bar by hanging the bar of two cordelettes on a pulley.

a turning bar allows you to work your forearms as well as making muscle-ups easier.

cheers,


boadman


Feb 14, 2012, 9:15 AM
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Re: [rgold] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.


granite_grrl


Feb 14, 2012, 10:11 AM
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Re: [boadman] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?


boadman


Feb 14, 2012, 10:17 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I do have an (unwarranted, I admit) feeling that your arms and shoulders aren't really holding you back as much as you think they are. I have several friends, both male and female, who are very strong climbers that aren't very burly in terms of pulling, but manage to finagle there way through pulling moves with technique.


Partner cracklover


Feb 14, 2012, 10:26 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

The advice I gave was neither based only on myself, nor based on only men. Nor was it dismissive. And as far as I can tell I answered the actual questions you raised (to the best of my ability.) But apparently you're more interested in the "dismissive replies" to your post.

What's up with that?

GCrazy


granite_grrl


Feb 14, 2012, 10:57 AM
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Re: [boadman] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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boadman wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I do have an (unwarranted, I admit) feeling that your arms and shoulders aren't really holding you back as much as you think they are. I have several friends, both male and female, who are very strong climbers that aren't very burly in terms of pulling, but manage to finagle there way through pulling moves with technique.
I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.


jt512


Feb 14, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I do have an (unwarranted, I admit) feeling that your arms and shoulders aren't really holding you back as much as you think they are. I have several friends, both male and female, who are very strong climbers that aren't very burly in terms of pulling, but manage to finagle there way through pulling moves with technique.
I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

The only dismissive attitude in this thread is yours.

Jay


boadman


Feb 14, 2012, 3:02 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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There is definitely a subset (I think it's kind of small) of routes out there where big muscle strength helps. In the low 12s, the subset is even smaller. Increased hand strength and endurance will help you on nearly every route you climb.

I don't know about you, but between kids, work, home repairs, etc, I have about 3-5 hours of time in my average week that I can devote to climbing. I think that for maximal efficiency (climbing benefit/time), without access to a good gym or woody, a hangboard is going to get you the biggest bang for the buck.

If you've got a more free time, the weightlifting stuff probably wouldn't hurt.


ceebo


Feb 14, 2012, 3:04 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
boadman wrote:
rgold wrote:
boadman wrote:
I think you'll see a larger improvement from one or two hangboard sessions a week than from any amount of weight lifting. Super low rep weighted pull ups might help lock-off strength, whether or not it will help your climbing is up for debate.

It's pretty clear boadman hasn't read the whole thread. I never promoted weight lifting, for example, and suggesting weighted pullups to someone who is struggling to do two without weight makes absolutely no sense.

More importantly, it makes absolutely no sense to get caught up in false dichotomies. G-girl said she doesn't have a hangboard, but if she could get one, then doing both types of exercises would be better for her than doing only finger training or only upper-body training.

And there is another consideration: the hangboard by itself is probably not a good idea, because doing a lot of hanging when your pulling strength is relatively low is going to be more than usually dangerous for your shoulders.

It's pretty easy to avoid shoulder injuries by starting hanging by stepping off of a step ladder or a chair into a locked off position. From my experience, the big muscle strength comes super quick in the spring, and doesn't require any specific training to maintain. If she's like me and has a limited amount of time to train, hangboarding will be much more effective than any big muscle pulling work. Weightlifting might actually hurt her climbing if she puts on weight as a result of that type of training. I have several female friends that climb 13- that can't do more than 2 or 3 pull-ups.

I find it really hard in this male dominated sport to get good training advice for strength gains. Most guys take what apply to themselves and then give it back to me.

Girls don't just gain muscle mass the way guys do. I'm never going to gain so much weight from muscle gain in the period of three months that it will effect my climbing when I head outside again, nor would most girls. This isn't even on the radar.

At the level I climb I don't think most guys have to worry about their strength holding them back. Technique, endurance, finger strength, yes, but not lock-off and core. I then get dismissive replies about things I percive as a weakness for myself because they never found it to be a weakness for themselves. What's up with that?

I'm not trying to be dismissive. I do have an (unwarranted, I admit) feeling that your arms and shoulders aren't really holding you back as much as you think they are. I have several friends, both male and female, who are very strong climbers that aren't very burly in terms of pulling, but manage to finagle there way through pulling moves with technique.
I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

People don't put in moves just for the sake of it.

I may shift my hands and feet a few times just to make one upward move. It can be required to make sure very little weight is on hands as you ajust feet into the best position to support the next big move. Allot of those ''pointless'' moves will be keeping the fore arms and fingers under a sustaineble load through means of good base support/cog. Missing out all those little moves will add extra load onto the fingers that requires extra energy. Those little mistakes or short cuts as you call them will haunt you at the crux.


Traches


Feb 14, 2012, 3:50 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

I guess it's cold math-- the most efficient move (or series of moves) in terms of energy used is the best, period. Sometimes making 3 easy moves is much better than a single hard move, sometimes you burn more energy hanging and the best option is to power through quickly. Climb lazy!


noahfor


Feb 14, 2012, 5:30 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
So it's winter and I have no climbing gym nearby. I am still getting out on the weekends ice climbing and drytooling, but haven't been climbing through the week.

One of my weakest link in my climbing has always been brute strength. Generally I've done pretty good despite this but especially now as I'm getting into 5.12 I'm finding more routes that just have stopper moves for me and these stopper moves are almost always because I'm not strong enough to pull them. So I decided to use my time after work going to the meathead gym and lifting weights in an attempt to get stronger.

I am doing a mix of power and endurnace (5-6 reps, long rest and 10+ reps, shorter rest) on things like one-arm lat pulldowns and rows, and then strictly higher reps (10+) on things like tricept and rotater cuff exercises. I would like to do some pullups as well, but I tend to max out at one or two and don't like such low reps when I'm already fatiguing my back muscles in the same workout. I'm looking to see where to buy some assistance bands to make this more reasonable, but until then I'm not doing these in my workouts.

So I was just hoping to get some feedback from anyone else that has done weight lifting to try to improve strength so they can climb harder. Suggestions on exercises, etc.

I'm not interested in the 5.10 climber telling me how awesome pullups have been for them and their climbing, or people telling me how amazing Crossfit is for this kind of thing. I'm hoping to hear from people who climb 5.12 and above on how they used specific weight training to help them climb harder, what they did and how it helped. Thanks.


If you're struggling to do 1-2 pull-ups, ditch the one-armed stuff, and just work on building general back strength, or strength in general.

Look into Pavel's "Grease the Groove" routine for pull-ups, and Pavel's "Power to the People" routine for general strength, or Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" routine.

For core strength, use low reps and high intensity. Work towards a standing ab-wheel rollout. Do weighted hanging leg raises.

Whether or not it will have any benefit on your climbing I have no idea, but those are my recommendations for building strength.


(This post was edited by noahfor on Feb 14, 2012, 5:32 PM)


granite_grrl


Feb 14, 2012, 6:24 PM
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Re: [Traches] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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Traches wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
I do very well with finagling too, but you don't think it would help your friends if they could do a route with less moves in terms of less foot switches, less intermediates...basically less fucking around on holds and in positions that you can skip through?

I understand that you're not trying to be dismissive, but I'm 5'8" tall and I don't think I make full use of my height on many routes because of things like lock-off and core strength. I know that self analyisis can be faulty, but I do try to look at my climbing with a critical and anylitical eye as best I can.

I guess it's cold math-- the most efficient move (or series of moves) in terms of energy used is the best, period. Sometimes making 3 easy moves is much better than a single hard move, sometimes you burn more energy hanging and the best option is to power through quickly. Climb lazy!
Good term.


Partner rgold


Feb 14, 2012, 8:13 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.


noahfor


Feb 14, 2012, 10:34 PM
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Re: [rgold] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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Women can train using the same methods as men. The only difference is that you will add less weight to the "bar" each workout or training period, and you won't be able to sustain progress for as long until a deload period is required or a change in training methods are in order.

Again, I'm just speaking from a general strength training stand-point.


granite_grrl


Feb 15, 2012, 4:32 AM
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rgold wrote:
G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.
Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.


danabart


Feb 15, 2012, 7:14 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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You wanted to know if climbers who were doing hard routes used weight training and if so, how they used it.

Dave MacLeod has climbed 5.14d; he discusses weight training - pros and cons - in his book. It seemed to me to an intelligent and well thought analysis. The book is, 9 out of 10 Climbers Make the Same Mistakes.


Partner rgold


Feb 15, 2012, 7:15 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

I think Jay got it right---you've become the center of dismissiveness here. Are you interested in finding a route to improvement, or is your goal to confirm a preconception that no one will attend to your needs? Perhaps it is the rest of the posters who should have known better?

I'm going to put in a final plug for the counterweighted routines I described. Perhaps I should mention that they aren't some wacky thing I thought up, they are adapted from standard gymnastic training for iron crosses that has worked for generations gymnasts.

I have never seen anyone try the method seriously and not make a lot of progress, and that includes a number of women (girlfriends, friends, acquaintences in the gym) who were initially in the same pullup category that G-girl describes. The fact that Crossfit makes a big deal about their rubber bands, picturing women using them, ought to make it clear that the technique works for both genders.

As for time, the entire pullup routine I described, with 3-minute rests, takes 15 minutes, leaving plenty of time for even a very busy person to add a substantial hangboarding component. In my experience with women who tried it (my personal experience is with one-arm pullups), it is reasonable for someone (i'm speaking about women now, ok?) who can't do a single pullup to be doing ten or more within a year.


shotwell


Feb 15, 2012, 7:29 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
rgold wrote:
G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.
Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Hopefully this will be helpful to you. I am a dude, so take it with a grain of salt.

I take 4 months off every year to work at a Scout camp. Really enjoy the opportunity to do something great for the community. When I'm there, I have two options. I can train, or I can get worse. My training facility is a hangboard and a place to do some core work.

So I work up a hangboard routine every summer. Hangboards are not expensive, and often times you can find one used for even cheaper. I do some core work on the board, but mainly focus on raw finger strength.

When I get to the core part of my workout, I focus on my obliques and back. Why? When you're making hard snatches, cross throughs, or lock offs your obliques and back tend to be the most engaged.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves. Not to say it isn't an effective strategy, but deadpointing lets you use your legs and core really efficiently. My wife (5'6") can nail hard deadpoints even better than I. She is little, but has really strong fingers. I can wrap my thumb and first finger around her entire bicep, so it isn't pure, raw strength at play either. (SPRAY WARNING: she also sent her first v9 yesterday, a powerful, dynamic problem)

rgold talked about the hard 'snatches' in modern sport climbing and bouldering. Honestly, a strong back and obliques are necessary, but you also need the strength in your hand not to get ripped off the holds when your feet swing out. A little bit of bicep strength can help you initiate some of the harder moves, but I don't tend to find that in most 5.12's or v4-5 climbs.

Finally, the hardest part about taking time off is that you don't trust your feet when you get back. It takes me a bit of time to tune up, but the finger strength gains mean I start at about the same level as I left. I quickly surpass my old high point, then keep on motoring.


granite_grrl


Feb 15, 2012, 7:50 AM
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Re: [shotwell] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
rgold wrote:
G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.
Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Hopefully this will be helpful to you. I am a dude, so take it with a grain of salt.

I take 4 months off every year to work at a Scout camp. Really enjoy the opportunity to do something great for the community. When I'm there, I have two options. I can train, or I can get worse. My training facility is a hangboard and a place to do some core work.

So I work up a hangboard routine every summer. Hangboards are not expensive, and often times you can find one used for even cheaper. I do some core work on the board, but mainly focus on raw finger strength.

When I get to the core part of my workout, I focus on my obliques and back. Why? When you're making hard snatches, cross throughs, or lock offs your obliques and back tend to be the most engaged.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves. Not to say it isn't an effective strategy, but deadpointing lets you use your legs and core really efficiently. My wife (5'6") can nail hard deadpoints even better than I. She is little, but has really strong fingers. I can wrap my thumb and first finger around her entire bicep, so it isn't pure, raw strength at play either. (SPRAY WARNING: she also sent her first v9 yesterday, a powerful, dynamic problem)

rgold talked about the hard 'snatches' in modern sport climbing and bouldering. Honestly, a strong back and obliques are necessary, but you also need the strength in your hand not to get ripped off the holds when your feet swing out. A little bit of bicep strength can help you initiate some of the harder moves, but I don't tend to find that in most 5.12's or v4-5 climbs.

Finally, the hardest part about taking time off is that you don't trust your feet when you get back. It takes me a bit of time to tune up, but the finger strength gains mean I start at about the same level as I left. I quickly surpass my old high point, then keep on motoring.
So you feel you were able to get some strength gains from your time off that helped your climbing? What kind of exercises were you doing for your back? A lot of lower back stuff or more shoulders/lats?

And I will pry the hang board away from the husband when I go back home this weekend, it will be an epic battle not to be missed!


Partner rgold


Feb 15, 2012, 7:58 AM
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Re: [shotwell] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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"shotwell' wrote:
Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves.

True enough in the sport and bouldering context. Locking off, to the extent that it requires more from your upper body and fingers, is nowadays be relegated to the category of inefficient technique.

On the other hand, the idea behind maximal technique and minimal strength means that the climber is more marginal. If a foot skids, the body is imperfectly oriented, or the timing is just a tad off, then the technique fails and the climber falls. A little bit of that good old ``old school'' brute strength provides a margin of error for those moments when you ain't perfect. What's so terrible about that?

When it comes to the marginality of perfectly timed technique vs. a bit more upper-body strength, trad climbing is a totally different situation. You can't deadpoint gear in. And on a run-out lead, deadpointing to an unknown hold might be pretty risky. Anyone who aspires to this type of climbing will be a lot better off if deadpointing is not their only option.


shotwell


Feb 15, 2012, 8:06 AM
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Re: [rgold] weight training for advanced climbing [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
"shotwell' wrote:
Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves.

True enough in the sport and bouldering context. Locking off, to the extent that it requires more from your upper body and fingers, is nowadays be relegated to the category of inefficient technique.

On the other hand, the idea behind maximal technique and minimal strength means that the climber is more marginal. If a foot skids, the body is imperfectly oriented, or the timing is just a tad off, then the technique fails and the climber falls. A little bit of that good old ``old school'' brute strength provides a margin of error for those moments when you ain't perfect. What's so terrible about that?

When it comes to the marginality of perfectly timed technique vs. a bit more upper-body strength, trad climbing is a totally different situation. You can't deadpoint gear in. And on a run-out lead, deadpointing to an unknown hold might be pretty risky. Anyone who aspires to this type of climbing will be a lot better off if deadpointing is not their only option.

We're in total agreement there. Highball bouldering is also a time when being able to lock off is critical. I guess, for me, the brute strength is there already. My wife had to work hard for her lock off strength.

g-girl. Get the hang board. I focus almost exclusively on my lower back. It is what always feels wrecked after hard bouldering days.


camhead


Feb 15, 2012, 8:09 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
shotwell wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
rgold wrote:
G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.
Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Hopefully this will be helpful to you. I am a dude, so take it with a grain of salt.

I take 4 months off every year to work at a Scout camp. Really enjoy the opportunity to do something great for the community. When I'm there, I have two options. I can train, or I can get worse. My training facility is a hangboard and a place to do some core work.

So I work up a hangboard routine every summer. Hangboards are not expensive, and often times you can find one used for even cheaper. I do some core work on the board, but mainly focus on raw finger strength.

When I get to the core part of my workout, I focus on my obliques and back. Why? When you're making hard snatches, cross throughs, or lock offs your obliques and back tend to be the most engaged.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves. Not to say it isn't an effective strategy, but deadpointing lets you use your legs and core really efficiently. My wife (5'6") can nail hard deadpoints even better than I. She is little, but has really strong fingers. I can wrap my thumb and first finger around her entire bicep, so it isn't pure, raw strength at play either. (SPRAY WARNING: she also sent her first v9 yesterday, a powerful, dynamic problem)

rgold talked about the hard 'snatches' in modern sport climbing and bouldering. Honestly, a strong back and obliques are necessary, but you also need the strength in your hand not to get ripped off the holds when your feet swing out. A little bit of bicep strength can help you initiate some of the harder moves, but I don't tend to find that in most 5.12's or v4-5 climbs.

Finally, the hardest part about taking time off is that you don't trust your feet when you get back. It takes me a bit of time to tune up, but the finger strength gains mean I start at about the same level as I left. I quickly surpass my old high point, then keep on motoring.
So you feel you were able to get some strength gains from your time off that helped your climbing? What kind of exercises were you doing for your back? A lot of lower back stuff or more shoulders/lats?

And I will pry the hang board away from the husband when I go back home this weekend, it will be an epic battle not to be missed!

What does Chossy need a hangbored for? He could just as easily hang from door jams with his drytools.


shotwell


Feb 15, 2012, 8:11 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
shotwell wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
rgold wrote:
G-Girl, there are perhaps a few training experts here who fully understand gender differences. Most of us have just done some (or a lot of) training and are saying what worked for us, just as you say. I don't think it is a matter of anyone being dismissive, although a few are not paying attention.

Here's what I think. Read the advice. Think about it. Look for ideas that makes sense to you and seem like they might work. Then modify them to apply to your situation. Because that's all you can expect, and indeed, it is all you need.
Yeah, it's just frustration and the term "dismissive" was too harsh.

While I still think weight training can help if done right, it seems that very few people here have experimented with it enough to tell me if it has helped their climbing or not. I shouldn't have expected anything more than what I've been getting....goodness knows I've spent enough time on this site to know better.

Hopefully this will be helpful to you. I am a dude, so take it with a grain of salt.

I take 4 months off every year to work at a Scout camp. Really enjoy the opportunity to do something great for the community. When I'm there, I have two options. I can train, or I can get worse. My training facility is a hangboard and a place to do some core work.

So I work up a hangboard routine every summer. Hangboards are not expensive, and often times you can find one used for even cheaper. I do some core work on the board, but mainly focus on raw finger strength.

When I get to the core part of my workout, I focus on my obliques and back. Why? When you're making hard snatches, cross throughs, or lock offs your obliques and back tend to be the most engaged.

Building lock off strength is kind of old school. Learning to deadpoint effectively can supersede all but the weirdest lock off moves. Not to say it isn't an effective strategy, but deadpointing lets you use your legs and core really efficiently. My wife (5'6") can nail hard deadpoints even better than I. She is little, but has really strong fingers. I can wrap my thumb and first finger around her entire bicep, so it isn't pure, raw strength at play either. (SPRAY WARNING: she also sent her first v9 yesterday, a powerful, dynamic problem)

rgold talked about the hard 'snatches' in modern sport climbing and bouldering. Honestly, a strong back and obliques are necessary, but you also need the strength in your hand not to get ripped off the holds when your feet swing out. A little bit of bicep strength can help you initiate some of the harder moves, but I don't tend to find that in most 5.12's or v4-5 climbs.

Finally, the hardest part about taking time off is that you don't trust your feet when you get back. It takes me a bit of time to tune up, but the finger strength gains mean I start at about the same level as I left. I quickly surpass my old high point, then keep on motoring.
So you feel you were able to get some strength gains from your time off that helped your climbing? What kind of exercises were you doing for your back? A lot of lower back stuff or more shoulders/lats?

And I will pry the hang board away from the husband when I go back home this weekend, it will be an epic battle not to be missed!
Should this be moved to the competition forum? Will there be video posted? If you win, do you automatically get any sponsorship offers he gets from Ouray?

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