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redlude97


Mar 14, 2012, 2:06 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Overweight [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
ceebo wrote:
On the fun part it's more likely you who needs to stfu jay. Go put 40lb vest on.. lets factor in your ability.. go attempt some f6b's. Come tell me if you still think its fun.


So you're saying a heavy climber can't have fun?

Or are you saying that the lighter climber will always have more fun?

You of all people should know that things in climbing are relative. For example: I bet I weigh twice what you do and I have a blast climbing!

Ironically with all your negative posts you seem unable to enjoy climbing, or anythig for that matter.

Most new climbers percieve getting to the top being the only goal of climbing. Next on their mind is getting to the top on the hardest route possible. Also.. most new climbers percieve big chunky holds on a slab climb as nothing more than a silly warm up or something for kids/noobs (they sure as hell don't wanne be noobs, right?.. or worse still climb the kids routes).

Your avg new climber will not see past the fact that the above is complete fucking nonsence.

And, even if a climber in his shoes did see past all that then their is the self consious aspect. Most people around him will be swinging off roof climbs and so on like the morons usually do.. making things look ''cool'' and easy. Their will be kids flying up things he cant even get off the ground on.. etc etc. Again.. to a climber like us we know this means NOTHING.. and that he should ignore that bolix and continue at his own level making his own great gains. Can ou say for certain a new climber can jump all the above hurdles to have ''fun''?. Also, mny instructors don;'t have fking clue just how hrd it is for such a climber.. who lso m strugle with flexbility.

And this is not negitave. The things i say come first hand from climbers i have taught. It really is not easy for them to fully enjoy climbing itself. At lest not till they let go of the newb mentalitys.
You are projecting your own insecurities dude. Most new climbers have lots of fun just rainbowing a wall. The thrill of being that high up in the air is enough and they don't even understand grades. Most noobs I take outside have more fun on the 5.6 they finish than the 5.9 they flailed on


ceebo


Mar 14, 2012, 2:18 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Overweight [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
You are projecting your own insecurities dude. Most new climbers have lots of fun just rainbowing a wall. The thrill of being that high up in the air is enough and they don't even understand grades. Most noobs I take outside have more fun on the 5.6 they finish than the 5.9 they flailed on

Bolded for irony.

Now, again.. add 40lb and go try your on sight level.

Yes.. just a small joke for jay.


photonicgirl


Mar 14, 2012, 3:40 PM
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Re: [jt512] Overweight [In reply to]
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Wow, who would have known how excited you'd get by my simple post. Remember, my post said "I speak from experience."

I was 40 lbs overweight, and a no dairy, no sugar (limited) diet of 2000 calories per day worked wonders for me, at 5'8 when I was 170. I am assuming the person we are speaking about is going to exercise, and walking is easy on the body.

My friend lost 55 pounds doing as I have shared here, no dairy, no sugar, walking 2 miles per day, but she was much shorter and she only ate about 1800 per day. It's kind of simple really. Read Dr. McDougal's book, or Dr. Mercola's website. In fact, there are many books and website written by doctors who will tell you the same thing. They will also tell you to avoid sugar, dairy and diet drinks.

Where do you think I got my information? Doctors of course! Now assuming that our newbie climber wants to get fit and climb, this is a great way to start, rather than sending her off to an "easy" wall. She may find it is not within her abilities (DUH) and then decide climbing is too hard.

I also teach yoga twice per week to women who have weight issues ... which is helping them begin to get a grip on their weight and their health.

What do you do to help overweight people? I'm curious because you have attacked me so strongly you seem to have a lot of emotion invested in this post.

Thank you ahead of time for trying to be nice in your next reply.

Jules


jt512


Mar 14, 2012, 6:19 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Overweight [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
On the fun part it's more likely you who needs to stfu jay. Go put 40lb vest on.. lets factor in your ability.. go attempt some f6b's. Come tell me if you still think its fun.

I know a number of overweight climbers who seem to have a lot of fun climbing. I know several who lost a lot of weight and became quite good, and a couple more who didn't lose much and still became pretty good.

You're an asshole; and coming from me, that's serious.

Jay


jt512


Mar 14, 2012, 6:43 PM
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Re: [photonicgirl] Overweight [In reply to]
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photonicgirl wrote:
Wow, who would have known how excited you'd get by my simple post. Remember, my post said "I speak from experience."

I was 40 lbs overweight, and a no dairy, no sugar (limited) diet of 2000 calories per day worked wonders for me, at 5'8 when I was 170. I am assuming the person we are speaking about is going to exercise, and walking is easy on the body.

My friend lost 55 pounds doing as I have shared here, no dairy, no sugar, walking 2 miles per day, but she was much shorter and she only ate about 1800 per day. It's kind of simple really. Read Dr. McDougal's book, or Dr. Mercola's website. In fact, there are many books and website written by doctors who will tell you the same thing. They will also tell you to avoid sugar, dairy and diet drinks.

Well, I know more about nutrition than those doctors do. And as for Dr. Mercola, I think I'll pass.

In reply to:
Where do you think I got my information? Doctors of course!

Even well-qualified doctors aren't whom you should go to for nutrition advice, never mind outright frauds like Mercola.

In reply to:
Now assuming that our newbie climber wants to get fit and climb, this is a great way to start, rather than sending her off to an "easy" wall. She may find it is not within her abilities (DUH) and then decide climbing is too hard.

Actually, telling a woman to give up dairy is horrendous advice. Women need the calcium, and there is a body of evidence that suggests that dairy products are actually slimming, although the mechanism for the effect is up in the air.

In reply to:
What do you do to help overweight people?

First of all, I do no harm, which is more than I can say for you if you advise women to stop consuming dairy products. Secondly, I suggest they follow diet advice, backed by real science, which is briefly summarized here.

In reply to:
I'm curious because you have attacked me so strongly you seem to have a lot of emotion invested in this post.

I attacked you "strongly" because you deserved it. You had the gall to inform someone that they wouldn't have fun climbing, and that they should do yoga instead. You gave nutrition advice that was partly uninformed (give up sugar, don't drink diet sodas, and consume 2000 kcal/day) and partly flat-out bad (give up dairy).

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2012, 7:55 PM)


ceebo


Mar 14, 2012, 6:58 PM
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Re: [jt512] Overweight [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ceebo wrote:
On the fun part it's more likely you who needs to stfu jay. Go put 40lb vest on.. lets factor in your ability.. go attempt some f6b's. Come tell me if you still think its fun.

I know a number of overweight climbers who seem to have a lot of fun climbing. I know several who lost a lot of weight and became quite good, and a couple more who didn't lose much and still became pretty good.

You're an asshole; and coming from me, that's serious.

Jay

Are you ever anything but seri... an asshole?.


photonicgirl


Mar 14, 2012, 8:05 PM
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Overweight [In reply to]
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Angry Dude.

I'm continually amazed at the absolute vehemence you have directed towards someone online you have never met (me). There's other posts here that say much more than mine yet you chose me to yell at online. Is it cos I'm a girl? Good Lord! Glad we don't share the cliffs.

As an aside, I cannot imagine where you get all your nutritional information (look up green leafy vegetables calcium compared to milk) and your anger is just, wow! Impressive. Serious asshole. I get it.

But that's not why I'm replying to your post. I'm replying to say goodbye. It's time for me to fly to bluer skies, friendlier folks and happier climbs. Should you wish to continue to spout off on this thread, you'll be doing it to an audience that does not include me.

Hope you find happiness someday and no longer need to be so angry. Good luck with all that Cool


jt512


Mar 14, 2012, 8:28 PM
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Re: [photonicgirl] Overweight [In reply to]
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photonicgirl wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the absolute vehemence you have directed towards someone online you have never met (me). There's other posts here that say much more than mine yet you chose me to yell at online. Is it cos I'm a girl?

First of all, I'm not "yelling at you." Secondly, it has nothing to do with whether I've met you or not. And, third, it's not because you're a girl. I'm responding to your post simply because you are wrong—in part, dangerously wrong. It's nothing personal. Like you say, I don't even know you.

In reply to:
As an aside, I cannot imagine where you get all your nutritional information...

I got it initially in graduate school, and I continue to get it from reading peer review nutrition journals.

In reply to:
(look up green leafy vegetables calcium compared to milk)

I'm aware that some green leafy vegetables are high in calcium. But you didn't recommend that the OP give up all dairy products and substitute two servings per day of kale, collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, etc. to make up for the calcium, did you? No. You just said to give up dairy products. And your reason for making that recommendation is that you claimed it would aid her weight loss. That's just nonsense, and the partial data we have on the subject suggests just the opposite. So you made a recommendation that would likely lead to insufficient calcium intake, and, if anything, hinder weight loss. All that, and I still managed to say that at least your intentions were good.

In reply to:
...and your anger is just, wow! Impressive. Serious asshole. I get it.

I'm not angry in the least. I'm simply saying that you're wrong. That, and you have a lot of fucking nerve telling someone whom you don't even know that they won't have fun climbing.

In reply to:
But that's not why I'm replying to your post. I'm replying to say goodbye. It's time for me to fly to bluer skies, friendlier folks and happier climbs.

Well, as they say, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 14, 2012, 9:08 PM)


sungam


Mar 15, 2012, 1:13 AM
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Re: [photonicgirl] Overweight [In reply to]
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I will try to be nice, I guess. The reason we responded strongly is because you gave bad advice. Some people go through a lot of effort to learn about these kinds of things and it upsets them when they see other people who don't necessarily really understand what they are talking about giving (wrong) advice like it's the one great truth. JT seems to drill "you are wrong" into peoples heads with strong wording - I hope it works more then it seems to, because most people seem to walk away still happy in the thought that they were right to begin with.

Giving up dairy is silly. Not just a little silly, it's really silly. As Jay said especially (but not only) for women. Not only that, but it really will not help you lose weight compared to cutting out calorie intake elsewhere in your diet.

The "no sugar" thing can be fine as long as you mean proccessed/added sugar, but fruit and vegetables have sugar in them, and I really hope you aren't going to cut those out Tongue

Some people really like yoga, and that's fine. People should do whatever form of exercise they enjoy most, which for some people is yoga, for others it isn't. Personally I really don't, and I don't find it as a particularly effect weight loss exercise when compared to, say, biking or rugby.

And to finish off, I think it is great that you lost weight - but you're hardly alone in that. Plenty of users have lost weight follow sound, healthy advice given by JT512 and others on here which certainly didn't involve cutting out entire food groups.

Please don't tell your friends to cut out dairy and eat only 2000 calories a day, for many people that is too low to healthily lose weight.


sungam


Mar 15, 2012, 1:14 AM
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Yeah, I know, irony alert. ^.^


ceebo


Mar 15, 2012, 6:17 AM
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Re: [jt512] Overweight [In reply to]
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When you are wrong (and you have been) people do not jump you with a educational base ball bat. You provoke hostility to draw people into a bigger argument so you can further flex.

But you know this..


chadnsc


Mar 15, 2012, 8:00 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Overweight [In reply to]
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ceebo wrote:
When you are wrong (and you have been) people do not jump you with a educational base ball bat. You provoke hostility to draw people into a bigger argument so you can further flex.

But you know this..
ceebo,

Save us your tripe and argue with Jay via PM.


granite_grrl


Mar 15, 2012, 8:33 AM
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Re: [photonicgirl] Overweight [In reply to]
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Wow, give up dairy? Just do yoga for weight loss? WTF?

First weight loss is a very simple on the outside, burn more calories than you consume, but how to go about doing that is far more complicated. Personally I don't think it's so much about just cutting calories but more about taking in high value nutrition with a good calorie value.

For example: low fat cottage cheese. It's high in protien, has some healthy fats, complex carbs. It's the kind of food that's not supper high in calories but fills you up and gives your body good nutrition. This is a great food in terms of weight loss and yet it's completely writen off in your diet.

And to the second point....yoga has many bennefits but weight loss is a hard one to sell for me. Fat people won't typically being doing the fast pased strength bases yoga that will lead to many calories burned. Often they'll be sitting on the floor stretching. Not that this isn't a great activity, it does make the body feel good, but you'd probably burn more calories going for a walk that's the length of a yoga class than doing the yoga class itself that's of this style.


ceebo


Mar 15, 2012, 9:35 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] Overweight [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
ceebo wrote:
When you are wrong (and you have been) people do not jump you with a educational base ball bat. You provoke hostility to draw people into a bigger argument so you can further flex.

But you know this..
ceebo,

Save us your tripe and argue with Jay via PM.

Leading by example i see.


chadnsc


Mar 15, 2012, 9:41 AM
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ceebo wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
ceebo wrote:
When you are wrong (and you have been) people do not jump you with a educational base ball bat. You provoke hostility to draw people into a bigger argument so you can further flex.

But you know this..
ceebo,

Save us your tripe and argue with Jay via PM.

Leading by example i see.

Meh


jt512


Mar 15, 2012, 12:29 PM
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Re: [chadnsc] Overweight [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
ceebo wrote:
When you are wrong (and you have been) people do not jump you with a educational base ball bat. You provoke hostility to draw people into a bigger argument so you can further flex.

But you know this..
ceebo,

Save us your tripe and argue with Jay via PM.

Oh, thanks.


jt512


Mar 15, 2012, 12:35 PM
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Re: [sungam] Overweight [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:

Giving up dairy is silly. Not just a little silly, it's really silly. As Jay said especially (but not only) for women.

That particular recommendation was worse than "silly." It was detrimental.

Jay


billcoe_


Mar 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
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nikilee93 wrote:
Okay, for one. how am i lying to myself? I know I am bigger or as you say "buried in blubber" and I am working out to lose the weight and eating healthier. Two why would you say anything or reply to this post if you were just going to be an ass...
Its people like you that make me want to climb just so i can prove that i can do it...

so why don't you go crawl back in the cave you came from and stay there...

Hang in there buddy. Highly recommend the Zone Diet book. Couple of links to help out. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz1kqpisgNI

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2439667
Of particular note: read JT512s first link to his solid PDF.

Seriously, it's a matter of will. If you love climbing I know you'll do it. Ignore the losers telling you otherwise. Good luck.


shockabuku


Mar 15, 2012, 1:37 PM
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nikilee93 wrote:
I plan on it :] And i love the star wars reference ahaha. I am excited though! I should be going to this gym down the street from my house this weekend and I can't wait to get started!!

Clearly this thread is no longer about you but, did you go climbing yet? If so, did you have fun?


roguecrimson


Mar 16, 2012, 4:48 PM
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Re: [jt512] Overweight [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
photonicgirl wrote:
I'm continually amazed at the absolute vehemence you have directed towards someone online you have never met (me). There's other posts here that say much more than mine yet you chose me to yell at online. Is it cos I'm a girl?

First of all, I'm not "yelling at you." Secondly, it has nothing to do with whether I've met you or not. And, third, it's not because you're a girl. I'm responding to your post simply because you are wrong—in part, dangerously wrong. It's nothing personal. Like you say, I don't even know you.

In reply to:
As an aside, I cannot imagine where you get all your nutritional information...

I got it initially in graduate school, and I continue to get it from reading peer review nutrition journals.

In reply to:
(look up green leafy vegetables calcium compared to milk)

I'm aware that some green leafy vegetables are high in calcium. But you didn't recommend that the OP give up all dairy products and substitute two servings per day of kale, collard greens, turnip greens, mustard greens, etc. to make up for the calcium, did you? No. You just said to give up dairy products. And your reason for making that recommendation is that you claimed it would aid her weight loss. That's just nonsense, and the partial data we have on the subject suggests just the opposite. So you made a recommendation that would likely lead to insufficient calcium intake, and, if anything, hinder weight loss. All that, and I still managed to say that at least your intentions were good.

In reply to:
...and your anger is just, wow! Impressive. Serious asshole. I get it.

I'm not angry in the least. I'm simply saying that you're wrong. That, and you have a lot of fucking nerve telling someone whom you don't even know that they won't have fun climbing.

In reply to:
But that's not why I'm replying to your post. I'm replying to say goodbye. It's time for me to fly to bluer skies, friendlier folks and happier climbs.

Well, as they say, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Jay


I've read about these men who have a special affinity for big girls!

In fact they send them money to buy foods and gorge themselves.

Then they take photos, and do all sorts of things!

I've seen a girl who weighed over 200 lbs climbing.

She climbed dogleg at Jtree and her bf was extremely patient and supportive!

Let them eat Cake!


ChessRonin


Mar 18, 2012, 9:24 AM
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Re: [Rudmin] Reply: [nikilee93] [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
Does anyone think that climbing will cause you to lose weight though? I mean it might give you motivation because it's easier to climb when you're lighter, but I think the only real exercise I get while climbing happens on the approach. Maybe speed climbing raelly long routes could get you sweating buckets, but for the most part climbing, especially at the gym is like doing short bursts of work with lots of rest.

Climbing burns a lot of calories. You can easily burn a thousand calories in an intense gym session. I've personally tested this numerous times using a heartrate monitor (that tracks calorie burn), so I know it to be true.


jt512


Mar 18, 2012, 11:43 AM
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ChessRonin wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
Does anyone think that climbing will cause you to lose weight though? I mean it might give you motivation because it's easier to climb when you're lighter, but I think the only real exercise I get while climbing happens on the approach. Maybe speed climbing raelly long routes could get you sweating buckets, but for the most part climbing, especially at the gym is like doing short bursts of work with lots of rest.

Climbing burns a lot of calories. You can easily burn a thousand calories in an intense gym session. I've personally tested this numerous times using a heartrate monitor (that tracks calorie burn), so I know it to be true.

1000 kcal? I doubt it. What exactly were you doing? At what grade? And for what duration?

Jay


ChessRonin


Mar 18, 2012, 12:07 PM
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jt512 wrote:
ChessRonin wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
Does anyone think that climbing will cause you to lose weight though? I mean it might give you motivation because it's easier to climb when you're lighter, but I think the only real exercise I get while climbing happens on the approach. Maybe speed climbing raelly long routes could get you sweating buckets, but for the most part climbing, especially at the gym is like doing short bursts of work with lots of rest.

Climbing burns a lot of calories. You can easily burn a thousand calories in an intense gym session. I've personally tested this numerous times using a heartrate monitor (that tracks calorie burn), so I know it to be true.

1000 kcal? I doubt it. What exactly were you doing? At what grade? And for what duration?

Jay

This was a year ago, but according to some notes that I was able to locate, I averaged around 500kC for an hour long bouldering session, during which I typically bouldered superset style, meaning that I minimized rest. The grades were all sub V2.

However, I logged some route climbing sessions in the range of 70-100 minutes, during which I believe I probably climbed around 200 or more vertical feet, alternating between stuff at my limit and easier stuff(between 5.6 and 5.9+). I weighed just under 200lbs at that point.

The heartrate monitor that I was using was calibrated in the sense that I compared its results for normal cardio activites (biking, running, swimming, jumping rope, etc) with data available in established tables for the activities, and it was always quite accurate.

So while, clearly, 1000kC is not going to be a common number for a climbing session, for a male weighing over 200lbs, a long and intense session (climbing until the forearms grip no more) is going to take you to the 1000kC range.

It would be interesting to see other people's results. If anyone else here has a heartrate monitor, spend 2 hours in the gym lapping easy climbs, mixed in with some hard climbs, while tracking your calories burned, and post the results!


ChessRonin


Mar 18, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Re: [sungam] Overweight [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
photonicgirl wrote:
Hi Niki,

I'm going to be completely honest with you: Climbing at your weight will not be fun for you at all. However, if your goal is to climb and lose weight, I can suggest that you begin taking yoga classes, keep a food diary, and walk. Give yourself 2000 calories per day, cut out dairy and sugar.
Okay, some of your advice is fine. Keeping a food diary and taking excersize classes (wether they be yoga or something else) is fine.

Telling someone to eat 2000 calories is ridiculous, you have no idea what their reccomended intake is, you don't even know if they are male for female.

As for saying "cut out dairy and sugar." all I can do is facepalm. You have got to be kidding me. I really hope you don't mean they should avoid fruits. And what is wrong with dairy*?

nikilee93, if you want diet advice check out "Gold Medal Nutrition" by Glenn Cardwell. It is an excellent and well written book that will teach you about nutrition, because 3 sentences (even if they were well researched and clearly written) aren't going to give you all the answers you need/want.

JT512 also wrote a good short article on losing weight for climbing: http://jt512.dyndns.org/what_to_eat.pdf



*On second thought, please don't.

Dairy is absolutely unnecessary in the healthy human diet. So is fruit.

I don't understand why you are flaming this woman for her relatively sound dietary advice? As long as someone is maintaining an adequate intake of vitamins and other micro and macro nutrients, they absolutely do not need dairy or sugar; in fact, many people are lactose intolerant, and cutting out dairy will improve their general GI health as well.

Also, whether the OP is male or female, keeping your net caloric intake under 2000 is a reasonable guideline for weight loss; unless the person is over 200lbs of lean muscle mass, which is obviously quite uncommon.

Edit: There are plenty of sources of calcium that are quite adequate independent of dairy products. I can't imagine how it would be "horrendous advice" to advise someone to cease their dairy consumption? Of course, every person's nutrition needs to be dealt with holistically, but there's nothing wrong with that individual practice ("giving up" dairy, as though it should be a regular part of your diet to begin with).


(This post was edited by ChessRonin on Mar 18, 2012, 12:22 PM)


jt512


Mar 18, 2012, 1:05 PM
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Re: [ChessRonin] Reply: [nikilee93] [In reply to]
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ChessRonin wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ChessRonin wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
Does anyone think that climbing will cause you to lose weight though? I mean it might give you motivation because it's easier to climb when you're lighter, but I think the only real exercise I get while climbing happens on the approach. Maybe speed climbing raelly long routes could get you sweating buckets, but for the most part climbing, especially at the gym is like doing short bursts of work with lots of rest.

Climbing burns a lot of calories. You can easily burn a thousand calories in an intense gym session. I've personally tested this numerous times using a heartrate monitor (that tracks calorie burn), so I know it to be true.

1000 kcal? I doubt it. What exactly were you doing? At what grade? And for what duration?

Jay

This was a year ago, but according to some notes that I was able to locate, I averaged around 500kC for an hour long bouldering session, during which I typically bouldered superset style, meaning that I minimized rest. The grades were all sub V2.

However, I logged some route climbing sessions in the range of 70-100 minutes, during which I believe I probably climbed around 200 or more vertical feet, alternating between stuff at my limit and easier stuff(between 5.6 and 5.9+). I weighed just under 200lbs at that point.

The heartrate monitor that I was using was calibrated in the sense that I compared its results for normal cardio activites (biking, running, swimming, jumping rope, etc) with data available in established tables for the activities, and it was always quite accurate.

So while, clearly, 1000kC is not going to be a common number for a climbing session, for a male weighing over 200lbs, a long and intense session (climbing until the forearms grip no more) is going to take you to the 1000kC range.

It would be interesting to see other people's results. If anyone else here has a heartrate monitor, spend 2 hours in the gym lapping easy climbs, mixed in with some hard climbs, while tracking your calories burned, and post the results!

It has been repeatedly shown that heart rate overestimates the actual energy expenditure in rock climbing,¹ so, if by your heart rate monitor, you burned 1000 kcal, then you actually burned less, although I don't know what the magnitude of the difference would be. One could probably estimate it from the literature.

Jay

¹de Geus et al. Influence of climbing style on physiological responses during indoor rock climbing on routes with the same difficulty. Eur J Appl Physiol (2006) 98:489–496.

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