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aerili


Mar 9, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
aerili wrote:
rschap wrote:
I weight train with dumb bells but I go for more reps, maxing out at 15-20 reps, so I don't build muscle mass.
This is kind of funny to me (maybe not to you), but you are actually falling right into the range of hypertrophy training, aka mass-building.

You might try lifting much heavier and with much lower reps (less than 10)

This is interesting to me because I thought that the hyertrophy range was more in the 7-12 rep range from everything I've. I've currently been doing a mix of high weight/low reps (like 5-6 reps) and lower weight/high reps (12+ reps) and generally avoid this middle range.

What kind of reps should I be looking at? (not that I'm the sort of person to bulk up regardless, but I would like to do the most effective training in terms of strength/endurance gains).

You are right in that 7-12 rep range can be considered hypertrophy training but I really feel that if you max out at 7 reps you're lifting a fairly heavy % of your maximal lift. I think of hypertrophy training as 12-20 rep range personally. I think of true endurance lifting as beyond 20 reps.

Now all this has to be taken into context of how many sets you are doing as well. Lifting for mass usually entails a very high number of sets performed, so take that into account. Not to mention that all bodies respond differently--some people build mass more easily than others.

As a woman doing what is probably modest weight training, I just don't see how you'll ever really bulk at all.

I can't tell you what reps you should do since I have no idea what your goals are or even what you're doing, but I would say most climbers, lifting for prehab, could do well to lift anywhere in the 5-15 rep range, 2 sets, sometimes 3.

Personally, I do lighter load/higher rep/higher sets for stabilizer muscles (like rotator cuff and core) and heavier load/lower rep/lower set for things like lower body and opposition muscle training (although I'll usually apply this to at least two different exercises for one muscle group).


saint_john


Mar 9, 2012, 10:45 AM
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Re: [csproul] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
saint_john wrote:
Let me drop some science: If you're lifting weights but not consuming enough protein/calories to support muscle growth you are wasting your time.

Furthermore, you can not build muscle with adding body fat, no matter what the commercials tell you.

In conclusion: If, as many climbers are, you're overly concerned about your body fat levels then don't lift.

Bodybuilding.com has everything you'd ever want to know about weight training.
Not saying you're right or wrong...I have no idea..but if this is completely true, then why do bodybuilders have some of the lowest body fat % I have ever seen? I worked for a short time in a physiology lab that tested (we did fat % with a tank and did a lot of VO2 testing) athletes from several sports, including some elite level cyclists and runners. We tested a few bodybuilders and they had the lowest %'s of any of them.

An excellent question.

Competitive bodybuilders use bulking/cutting cycles.
They’ll spend months concentrating on "bulking" by lifting weights and consuming an excess of calories to promote muscle growth. Then weeks, or even months, before a competition they will “cut” weight by lowering their overall calorie consumption and reduce their workouts accordingly.

The bodybuilders you tested must have just come off a “cut” cycle.


noahfor


Mar 9, 2012, 11:09 AM
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Re: [aerili] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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Reps as low as 1 will stimulate hypertrophy. Infact, I'm pretty sure that a chart in Rippetoe's Practical Programming indicates that 1 rep sets stimulates the most myofibrillar hypertrophy and the amount of stimulation goes down as the reps go up, but because higher reps stimulate more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, they are considered the muscle building range because you get more of the combined myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic stimulation.


noahfor


Mar 9, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Re: [saint_john] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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saint_john wrote:
Let me drop some science: If you're lifting weights but not consuming enough protein/calories to support muscle growth you are wasting your time.

No. That's not true.


saint_john


Mar 9, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: [noahfor] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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Care to elaborate?


granite_grrl


Mar 9, 2012, 11:34 AM
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aerili wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
aerili wrote:
rschap wrote:
I weight train with dumb bells but I go for more reps, maxing out at 15-20 reps, so I don't build muscle mass.
This is kind of funny to me (maybe not to you), but you are actually falling right into the range of hypertrophy training, aka mass-building.

You might try lifting much heavier and with much lower reps (less than 10)

This is interesting to me because I thought that the hyertrophy range was more in the 7-12 rep range from everything I've. I've currently been doing a mix of high weight/low reps (like 5-6 reps) and lower weight/high reps (12+ reps) and generally avoid this middle range.

What kind of reps should I be looking at? (not that I'm the sort of person to bulk up regardless, but I would like to do the most effective training in terms of strength/endurance gains).

You are right in that 7-12 rep range can be considered hypertrophy training but I really feel that if you max out at 7 reps you're lifting a fairly heavy % of your maximal lift. I think of hypertrophy training as 12-20 rep range personally. I think of true endurance lifting as beyond 20 reps.

Now all this has to be taken into context of how many sets you are doing as well. Lifting for mass usually entails a very high number of sets performed, so take that into account. Not to mention that all bodies respond differently--some people build mass more easily than others.

As a woman doing what is probably modest weight training, I just don't see how you'll ever really bulk at all.

I can't tell you what reps you should do since I have no idea what your goals are or even what you're doing, but I would say most climbers, lifting for prehab, could do well to lift anywhere in the 5-15 rep range, 2 sets, sometimes 3.

Personally, I do lighter load/higher rep/higher sets for stabilizer muscles (like rotator cuff and core) and heavier load/lower rep/lower set for things like lower body and opposition muscle training (although I'll usually apply this to at least two different exercises for one muscle group).

I do the same for stabalizer and core like you do, but I have also been keeping it in the 12-15 rep range opposition training (like pushups and tricep exercises). I've doing maybe 5-6 reps for two sets on things like pulldowns and then ~12 reps for another set. My main goal in weight training is to build more strength for my climbing.


noahfor


Mar 9, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Re: [saint_john] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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saint_john wrote:
Care to elaborate?

Sure.

"Strength is not primarily a function of muscle size, but one of the appropriate muscles powerfully contracted by effective nervous stimulation." (Supertraining)

"Once again, strength training will not lead to mass if the athlete utilizes the correct program, while also paying careful attention to his nutritional intake. The food that you consume is the real cause of weight gain (or loss)." (rosstraining.com)

"Muscular strength is determined not only by the quantity of involved muscle mass but also by the extent to which individual fibers in a muscle are activated"(science and practice of strength training)

Plus, even if adding muscle mass was necessary for getting stronger, it's not the tremendous bulk people think of when they think of bodybuilders or gym bros.

Look at this guy holding 469 pounds over his head. That would take a tremendous amount of shoulder and upper back strength, but his shoulders and upper back aren't that massive. Would the added weight be more detrimental than the strength would be beneficial, in a climbing scenario? I don't know. But, I don't think it's obvious one way or the other. That amount of leg mass wouldn't be beneficial regardless of the provided leg strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NL6rqGAJlE


(This post was edited by noahfor on Mar 9, 2012, 12:12 PM)


saint_john


Mar 9, 2012, 12:32 PM
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Re: [noahfor] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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noahfor wrote:
saint_john wrote:
Care to elaborate?

Sure.

"Strength is not primarily a function of muscle size, but one of the appropriate muscles powerfully contracted by effective nervous stimulation." (Supertraining)

"Once again, strength training will not lead to mass if the athlete utilizes the correct program, while also paying careful attention to his nutritional intake. The food that you consume is the real cause of weight gain (or loss)." (rosstraining.com)

"Muscular strength is determined not only by the quantity of involved muscle mass but also by the extent to which individual fibers in a muscle are activated"(science and practice of strength training)

Plus, even if adding muscle mass was necessary for getting stronger, it's not the tremendous bulk people think of when they think of bodybuilders or gym bros.

Look at this guy holding 469 pounds over his head. That would take a tremendous amount of shoulder and upper back strength, but his shoulders and upper back aren't that massive. Would the added weight be more detrimental than the strength would be beneficial, in a climbing scenario? I don't know. But, I don't think it's obvious one way or the other. That amount of leg mass wouldn't be beneficial regardless of the provided leg strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NL6rqGAJlE

Are you joking? That guy's lats and traps are huge for his frame (look at the video at 20 seconds in). If he doesn't look 'huge' it's because he's 5'8" tall.

I'll clarify my statement: by "growth" I don't necessarily mean "bulk". I mean strength/performance gains.


noahfor


Mar 9, 2012, 2:31 PM
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Re: [saint_john] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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His lats are huge, but I was speaking more about his shoulders and traps. Yes, they are big, but when I say they aren't that big, I mean they are a lot smaller than what one might imagine one of the strongest most powerful people in the world looking like. If you think about starting from a completely untrained state, and realize that that guy has spent his entire life training with weights, it's obvious that very small mass gains can fuel progress. I see guys this big all the time. That's with his muscles completely flexed.



Compare him to Lee Priest who is 5'4.



That's the image I get when people are talking about not wanting to get too bulky.


(This post was edited by noahfor on Mar 9, 2012, 2:32 PM)


deschamps1000


Mar 10, 2012, 8:18 AM
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Re: [fsacb3] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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fsacb3 wrote:
I don't weight train. I don't care how I look anymore, I just want to be a better climber, and weights don't help.

The vast majority of hard climbers would disagree with you here. Take a look at serious climbers' training routines. Weights are used regularly and are critical to adding resistance.


flesh


Mar 11, 2012, 1:30 PM
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deschamps1000 wrote:
fsacb3 wrote:
I don't weight train. I don't care how I look anymore, I just want to be a better climber, and weights don't help.

The vast majority of hard climbers would disagree with you here. Take a look at serious climbers' training routines. Weights are used regularly and are critical to adding resistance.

Most of the best climbers I know don't do any or very little weight training. Unless your talking about weighted campusing/climbing. I haven't found lifting to benefit my climbing other than as a injury prevention tool.

It seems like the advanced climbers in the gyms I frequent spent alot of time with weights and the best climbers don't, just speculation ofc.

For most of us I would think that because we have a limited amount of time to dedicate to the goal of climbing better, it's better to focus the time one would spend on a lifting routine to other things.

Such as, cardio, to cut weight, campusing, hang boarding, watching better climbers/videos, reading books, some focused injury prevention exercises, system board training, Technique training, etc.

Assuming someone has plenty of time they would probably benefit more from traveling to more climbing areas to keep the level of motivation high and therefore, try harder/get stronger. Like the pro's.


noahfor


Mar 11, 2012, 8:43 PM
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Re: [flesh] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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flesh wrote:
I haven't found lifting to benefit my climbing other than as a injury prevention tool.

What kind of lifting were you doing? What was your routine? How strong did you get? How much did you weigh at the time?


deschamps1000


Mar 12, 2012, 8:22 AM
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Re: [flesh] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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I was referring to the use of weights, not necessarly getting in the weight-room. Things like weighted pullups, weights for core exercises, weights for injury-preventing oppositional exercises. All of those are regularly used by strong climbers.


onceahardman


Mar 12, 2012, 2:31 PM
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Re: [flesh] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Most of the best climbers I know don't do any or very little weight training. Unless your talking about weighted campusing/climbing.

So weighted climbing or campusing are not "weight training"?

I think most exercise physiologists would disagree with that. Even unweighted campusing is certainly resistance training. Likewise, much of what is written in books like The Self-Coached Climber really is resistance training, with the mass of your body as the resistance.


flesh


Mar 13, 2012, 9:47 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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Hardman, doesn't my quote imply that it is weight training? Also, it implies that most might not think of it as weight training. Why not take the high road and say something like "I guess this is what your saying" and then add something to it. We are all friends here right?

The point was to make the distinction for other people that most top climbers don't spend their time doing curls, dips, bench presses, squats, etc... typical weight room work outs. I know this, because I climb with many of them regularly. We all discuss what we do. Also, limited time could be spent better elsewhere.


onceahardman


Mar 13, 2012, 5:57 PM
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Re: [flesh] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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There is no need to get all butthurt about it, and imply that yours is the "high road", while mine is not.

My opinion is, too many people view resistance training as curling and benching. Transporting your center of mass to the top of a wall via muscle contraction is weight training, whether you like it or not.


noahfor


Mar 13, 2012, 11:07 PM
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flesh wrote:
The point was to make the distinction for other people that most top climbers don't spend their time doing curls, dips, bench presses, squats, etc... typical weight room work outs. I know this, because I climb with many of them regularly. We all discuss what we do. Also, limited time could be spent better elsewhere.

But, athletes at different stages of athletic development SHOULD be training differently. As an athlete becomes more proficient in his/her sport the need for training specificity increases. That's why high level climbers wouldn't see much benefit from general strength training. They've probably been able to develop all the strength they need through climbing itself, but that doesn't mean it's the best or fastest way to develop such strength.


Rufsen


Mar 14, 2012, 12:56 AM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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Well. The OP said "off the rock", and gave some examples of non-climbing resistance exercises.


flesh


Mar 19, 2012, 1:31 PM
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onceahardman wrote:
There is no need to get all butthurt about it, and imply that yours is the "high road", while mine is not.

My opinion is, too many people view resistance training as curling and benching. Transporting your center of mass to the top of a wall via muscle contraction is weight training, whether you like it or not.

I agree with your definition.

Based on previous posts, most ppl who have posted in this thread aren't using that definition.

There are many types of body weight or body weight weighted climbing specific exercises that can be used to gain strength in certain areas faster than one would through just climbing. Depending on their strength level and where they are at in their cycle and what their weaknesses are.

I don't think there is EVER a time when lifting dumbells, doing yoga, pilates, p90x, and the like are a better alternative than body weight or weighted exercises targeting specific muscle groups. Such as campusing, hang boarding, system board training etc.

Assuming most people have limited time, and they are male, and they are not at or below 8% body fat, they would see more improvement through doing cardio to lose weight and dieting.


onceahardman


Mar 19, 2012, 3:37 PM
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flesh wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
There is no need to get all butthurt about it, and imply that yours is the "high road", while mine is not.

My opinion is, too many people view resistance training as curling and benching. Transporting your center of mass to the top of a wall via muscle contraction is weight training, whether you like it or not.

I agree with your definition.

Based on previous posts, most ppl who have posted in this thread aren't using that definition.

There are many types of body weight or body weight weighted climbing specific exercises that can be used to gain strength in certain areas faster than one would through just climbing. Depending on their strength level and where they are at in their cycle and what their weaknesses are.

I don't think there is EVER a time when lifting dumbells, doing yoga, pilates, p90x, and the like are a better alternative than body weight or weighted exercises targeting specific muscle groups. Such as campusing, hang boarding, system board training etc.

Assuming most people have limited time, and they are male, and they are not at or below 8% body fat, they would see more improvement through doing cardio to lose weight and dieting.

I agree, but with several exceptions.

Traditional resistance training for muscle groups especially including the rotator cuff musculature and hamstrings are effective for injury prevention in athletes. (There are not many studies targeting primarily rock climbers, but there is no prima fascia reason why rock climbers would be different in this area than other athletes)

Also, from a muscle balancing perspective, it is plausible that some limited chest, elbow extensor, wrist extensor, and perhaps gastroc training could be effective in limiting some of the usual tendonosis/itis problems which appear numerous from a look through the Injuries Forum.

If you are not injured, you are able to climb more. If you climb more (and thoughtfully), you will get better at climbing.

Resistance training, indirectly, can help your climbing.


CapsaicinKing


Mar 19, 2012, 7:02 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Anyone do Weight Training? [In reply to]
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I lift weights, mainly because I need to be able to lift 280 lb motors and 120 lb engine heads (12 of them) once a year. With that said, I can climb up a 20 foot climbing wall (a really easy one) using only my arms, so i'm pretty happy about that haha.

I say to each their own, but the best climbers I know use some form of weighted training, be it weighted climbing or weights in a gym.


(This post was edited by CapsaicinKing on Mar 19, 2012, 7:07 PM)


flesh


Mar 20, 2012, 10:41 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
flesh wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
There is no need to get all butthurt about it, and imply that yours is the "high road", while mine is not.

My opinion is, too many people view resistance training as curling and benching. Transporting your center of mass to the top of a wall via muscle contraction is weight training, whether you like it or not.

I agree with your definition.

Based on previous posts, most ppl who have posted in this thread aren't using that definition.

There are many types of body weight or body weight weighted climbing specific exercises that can be used to gain strength in certain areas faster than one would through just climbing. Depending on their strength level and where they are at in their cycle and what their weaknesses are.

I don't think there is EVER a time when lifting dumbells, doing yoga, pilates, p90x, and the like are a better alternative than body weight or weighted exercises targeting specific muscle groups. Such as campusing, hang boarding, system board training etc.

Assuming most people have limited time, and they are male, and they are not at or below 8% body fat, they would see more improvement through doing cardio to lose weight and dieting.

I agree, but with several exceptions.

Traditional resistance training for muscle groups especially including the rotator cuff musculature and hamstrings are effective for injury prevention in athletes. (There are not many studies targeting primarily rock climbers, but there is no prima fascia reason why rock climbers would be different in this area than other athletes)

Also, from a muscle balancing perspective, it is plausible that some limited chest, elbow extensor, wrist extensor, and perhaps gastroc training could be effective in limiting some of the usual tendonosis/itis problems which appear numerous from a look through the Injuries Forum.

---You're saying limited injury prevention weight lifting is important, totally agree. I do 3 sets of ten shoulder presses, triangle push ups, and the medial epicondylitis (sp?) workout, almost every climbing day, which is working your wrist.

If you are not injured, you are able to climb more. If you climb more (and thoughtfully), you will get better at climbing.

---This is huge, I can't emphasize this comment enough...... IMO staying injury free if the number one thing you can do to make the most progress over time, say, five years or more.

Resistance training, indirectly, can help your climbing.


A little off topic, I'll just add, once again, that limited crimping at your limit is one of the best ways to prevent injury and therefore progress faster in the long run. It's the number one cause of injury in advanced climbers. I only crimp outside, unfortunately I can only climb outside about 25% of my climbing. If I've been indoors for weeks or longer, I'll mix in some difficult crimping... 5 attempts or less crimping at my limit roughly. No more than once a week.


redlude97


Mar 20, 2012, 11:01 AM
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CapsaicinKing wrote:
I lift weights, mainly because I need to be able to lift 280 lb motors and 120 lb engine heads (12 of them) once a year. With that said, I can climb up a 20 foot climbing wall (a really easy one) using only my arms, so i'm pretty happy about that haha.

I say to each their own, but the best climbers I know use some form of weighted training, be it weighted climbing or weights in a gym.
Ah yes, how did I guess you were going to be one of those meatheads at the gym


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 20, 2012, 11:19 AM
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onceahardman wrote:
but there is no prima fascia reason why rock climbers would be different in this area than other athletes.

Ouch. That's a clever bilingual pun!

Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus


CapsaicinKing


Mar 20, 2012, 2:27 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
CapsaicinKing wrote:
I lift weights, mainly because I need to be able to lift 280 lb motors and 120 lb engine heads (12 of them) once a year. With that said, I can climb up a 20 foot climbing wall (a really easy one) using only my arms, so i'm pretty happy about that haha.

I say to each their own, but the best climbers I know use some form of weighted training, be it weighted climbing or weights in a gym.
Ah yes, how did I guess you were going to be one of those meatheads at the gym

Ah yes, because testing my strength on an easy wall to see how much i've improved is such a bad thing. -rolls eyes-

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