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Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR?
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williams122


Mar 7, 2012, 8:01 AM
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Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR?
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Hi all - first post from an older noob - go easy...
I've had a nagging question as I'm reading up on top rope anchors. I've got a couple crags nearby with plenty of bolted TR routes - nothing over 60 feet. Is it EARNEST to (first anchor myself at the top of the cliff) simply lean over the edge of the cliff, reach down to the bolts and setup a dogbone with two locking biners on each end, clipping both into each bolt and running my rope through the bottom biners? It seems...too easy. There's other routes there that would require building an anchor to climb, but I'm itching to get on some real rock sooner than later (I love bouldering on the real stuff) but feel I need some more instruction on building before trusting my life to my work. But these bolts seems pretty straight forward. Assuming the bolts are in good condition, isn't that pretty solid? Thanks in advance!


kennoyce


Mar 7, 2012, 8:08 AM
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Re: [williams122] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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williams122 wrote:
Hi all - first post from an older noob - go easy...
I've had a nagging question as I'm reading up on top rope anchors. I've got a couple crags nearby with plenty of bolted TR routes - nothing over 60 feet. Is it EARNEST to (first anchor myself at the top of the cliff) simply lean over the edge of the cliff, reach down to the bolts and setup a dogbone with two locking biners on each end, clipping both into each bolt and running my rope through the bottom biners? It seems...too easy. There's other routes there that would require building an anchor to climb, but I'm itching to get on some real rock sooner than later (I love bouldering on the real stuff) but feel I need some more instruction on building before trusting my life to my work. But these bolts seems pretty straight forward. Assuming the bolts are in good condition, isn't that pretty solid? Thanks in advance!

There is WAY to much analysis on TR anchors on RC.com. if you have 2 bolts on the face of the rock (not on the top where the rope would run over the edge), all you need to do is clip the bolts with two draws. Most people who lead climb don't even use locking biners on either end of the draws, and I've never heard of a single failure happening. If it makes you feel safer go ahead and use lockers. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.


sungam


Mar 7, 2012, 8:09 AM
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Re: [williams122] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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As long as the bolts are sold and the draws don't end up at a funny angle it sounds fine. Many people Tr off two draws without the lockers.

There is a thread somewhere around where everyone was laffing at people who made overly complicated anchors where two draws would have been not only fine, but better. When things start to get complicated mistakes become a factor. Keep it simple :)


edge


Mar 7, 2012, 8:12 AM
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Re: [williams122] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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Assuming two bolts in good condition for the anchor, one quickdraw in each secured with locking biners on both ends is more than adequate. Rotate one of the lockers so that the gates are opposite and the screwlock mechanisms don't rub against each other. Like you said, make sure to anchor yourself with little to no slack before reaching over the edge.


zhaupin


Mar 7, 2012, 9:14 AM
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Re: [edge] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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Noob followup:

Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?


williams122


Mar 7, 2012, 9:29 AM
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Re: [williams122] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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Good stuff folks - I appreciate your taking the time to answer such a simple question. I like simple setups - less to go wrong... Yes the bolts are on the face, so there shouldn't be any problem with the rope running over an edge. I probably will go with lockers just for peace of mind - you gotta remember for us new folks, "the void beneath" is still a pretty undeniable sensation...part of the enjoyment, too, but I still drop the F bomb in front of my fiance' every now and then when I slip off a hold in the gym 40 feet off the floor - when there's rocks down there I can only imagine what I'll say Shocked


lena_chita
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Mar 7, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Re: [zhaupin] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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zhaupin wrote:
Noob followup:

Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?


In most 2-bolt bolted anchors, the two bolts are no more than a foot apart. Assuming that each quickdraw is about 12 inches (which is pretty short), the V angle is ~60 degrees, which translates into the force on each anchor being ~15% greater than the pulling force.

In reality, on many sport climbs there would be quicklinks or chains on the bolted anchors, so the V angle is quite a bit less than 60degrees even with 12 inch quickdraws.

Not a big deal in TR situation. And of course you can further improve things by using longer quickdraws at your anchor point, if you are concerned.


(This post was edited by lena_chita on Mar 7, 2012, 10:11 AM)


olderic


Mar 7, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [zhaupin] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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zhaupin wrote:
Noob followup:

Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?

Search for "American Death Triangle" - then decide.


sungam


Mar 7, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Re: [zhaupin] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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zhaupin wrote:
Noob followup:

Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?
If the angle is very large then this is a problem.60* or less should be fine.


zhaupin


Mar 7, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Re: [olderic] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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Interesting thing is -- and I'll double check this when I get home -- what I understand to be the 'American Death Triangle' is actually suggested as an anchor configuration in my edition of Freedom of the Hills.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to repeated noob questions. Everyone starts somewhere I guess!


marc801


Mar 7, 2012, 11:47 AM
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Re: [williams122] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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This is all you need:


If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:



kennoyce


Mar 7, 2012, 12:53 PM
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marc801 wrote:
This is all you need:
[image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image]

If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
[image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]

Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!


jt512


Mar 7, 2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
marc801 wrote:
This is all you need:
[image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image]

If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
[image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]

Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!

I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup?

Jay


kennoyce


Mar 7, 2012, 1:07 PM
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Re: [jt512] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
marc801 wrote:
This is all you need:
[image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image]

If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
[image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]

Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!

I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup?

Jay

Jay,

it's only great if you are taking a group of people toproping at an area that isn't accessable from the top and you don't have anyone else who would feel comfortable cleaning the anchor. You as the leader rig this setup so that you aren't TRing through the chains, then the last climber simply takes off the two biners before being lowered, and doesn't have to untie to clean the anchors.

This isn't a use everyday kind of thing, but for taking groups out to TR (which I do more often then I would like), I think this would be nice.


sungam


Mar 7, 2012, 1:36 PM
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Re: [jt512] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
marc801 wrote:
This is all you need:
[image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image]

If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
[image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]

Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!

I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup?

Jay
If Majid ends up doing the route last then his task is nice and simple.


jt512


Mar 7, 2012, 1:42 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
jt512 wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
marc801 wrote:
This is all you need:
[image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image]

If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.

Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
[image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]

Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!

I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup?

Jay

Jay,

it's only great if you are taking a group of people toproping at an area that isn't accessable from the top and you don't have anyone else who would feel comfortable cleaning the anchor. You as the leader rig this setup so that you aren't TRing through the chains, then the last climber simply takes off the two biners before being lowered, and doesn't have to untie to clean the anchors.

Got it.

Jay


Rmsyll2


Mar 7, 2012, 7:05 PM
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"It seems...too easy."

Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.

To see what others are using for more normal TR rim anchors, take some time at http://climbpilotnc.us/RiggingGalleries.htm. When you can decipher what system was intended, and begin to see some aspects you would not do or would want to do, you will be much better able to do rigging than many of the people who made those--none of whom had any difficulties with the rigging no matter what it amounted to.

Speaking of difficulties, the shape of the carabiners used in 'draws can cause a constriction on the rope that increases with load and may increase with decreased angle. The ones in Marc's photo are not showing that, but the straight-gate pair would have. I have belayed with such an opposed pair, and there can be noticeable rope friction and drag. It would bother me, but has not bothered the Sport climbers on millions of ascents.

.


jt512


Mar 7, 2012, 7:23 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
"It seems...too easy."

Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.

To see what others are using for more normal TR rim anchors, take some time at http://climbpilotnc.us/RiggingGalleries.htm. When you can decipher what system was intended, and begin to see some aspects you would not do or would want to do, you will be much better able to do rigging than many of the people who made those--none of whom had any difficulties with the rigging no matter what it amounted to.

Speaking of difficulties, the shape of the carabiners used in 'draws can cause a constriction on the rope that increases with load and may increase with decreased angle. The ones in Marc's photo are not showing that, but the straight-gate pair would have. I have belayed with such an opposed pair, and there can be noticeable rope friction and drag. It would bother me, but has not bothered the Sport climbers on millions of ascents.

.

Rmsyll2, while experienced climbers are apt to find your posts humorous, you are only confusing the beginners you are trying to reach.

I hate to say it, but you really need to put a lid on it.

Jay


Rmsyll2


Mar 7, 2012, 7:24 PM
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The photo of quick-draws on face anchors shows them clipped into the rings. I would too; but there are people who think that should not be done, no metal should be put on the rings, only a rope that is only used for two-strand rappel, with any carabiners only in the hangers. [yawn]

The other photo looks so clever, except for the angle of the carabiners, that I was truly disappointed to realize that rigging it still requires clipping in to set the carabiners and untying to put the rope through the q'links. The matter then resolves to when you'd rather do that, and what makes good TR rigging for group use.

.


redonkulus


Mar 7, 2012, 7:45 PM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
The photo of quick-draws on face anchors shows them clipped into the rings. I would too; but there are people who think that should not be done, no metal should be put on the rings, only a rope that is only used for two-strand rappel, with any carabiners only in the hangers. [yawn]

The other photo looks so clever, except for the angle of the carabiners, that I was truly disappointed to realize that rigging it still requires clipping in to set the carabiners and untying to put the rope through the q'links. The matter then resolves to when you'd rather do that, and what makes good TR rigging for group use.

.

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.


bearbreeder


Mar 7, 2012, 10:03 PM
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redonkulus wrote:

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.

there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe

besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Mar 7, 2012, 10:05 PM)


csproul


Mar 8, 2012, 4:23 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
redonkulus wrote:

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.

there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe

besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
I'm not sure I understand your description of the accident. THe method mentioned above (by redonkulus) requires only a few more feet of rope as compared to untying/threading/retying. So if the climber came off the end of the rope, it should have only been a few feet off of the ground. This was enough for a evac? I guess it is possible if the landing was bad enough. I still think that the method mentioned by redonkulus is generally superior if the rings are big enough to accept a bight of rope. There are exceptions, of course.


blueeyedclimber


Mar 8, 2012, 5:43 AM
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jt512 wrote:

I hate to say it, but you really need to put a lid on it.

Jay

Who are you and what have you done with Jay? Angelic

Josh


redonkulus


Mar 8, 2012, 5:50 AM
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csproul wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
redonkulus wrote:

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.

there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe

besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
I'm not sure I understand your description of the accident. THe method mentioned above (by redonkulus) requires only a few more feet of rope as compared to untying/threading/retying. So if the climber came off the end of the rope, it should have only been a few feet off of the ground. This was enough for a evac? I guess it is possible if the landing was bad enough. I still think that the method mentioned by redonkulus is generally superior if the rings are big enough to accept a bight of rope. There are exceptions, of course.

Yeah, there's maybe been once or twice when I couldn't feed a bight through the rings. Still, to continue my irate tangent, always just clip yourself in to both bolts, whether you're untying or not. Takes like 4 extra seconds, and an extra sling or QD or something. Not too hard. I can't understand why I see so many people not do this.


redonkulus


Mar 8, 2012, 6:00 AM
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bearbreeder wrote:
redonkulus wrote:

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.

there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe

besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...


She very well could have fallen and gotten hurt had she untied and done it the other way. It's always good practice to tie a knot in the end of the rope for a route that you KNOW will be a real rope stretcher. If they didn't know that the rope would be about 5 feet too short for the route with the bight cleaning method, they very likely would have made the same mistake had the rope been 5 feet too short for the route with the other method of cleaning.

It all comes down to taking a few extra, small, safety cautions. Like double checking your knot, belayer, and harness before you start up a route. If the route is obviously longer than like 70 ft, tie a knot in the end of the rope. If you're already at the anchors, clips into both of them. If you can manage it, feed a bight through the rings so you aren't ever off belay.

Of course, you can always just rap, which makes that whole thing null and void. It just got ingrained in me in Thailand, where it was entirely possible that both anchor bolts could fail, and I'd like to have at least the hope that one of the bolts I clipped would save me. Unsure


bearbreeder


Mar 8, 2012, 7:25 AM
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csproul wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
redonkulus wrote:

Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.

there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe

besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
I'm not sure I understand your description of the accident. THe method mentioned above (by redonkulus) requires only a few more feet of rope as compared to untying/threading/retying. So if the climber came off the end of the rope, it should have only been a few feet off of the ground. This was enough for a evac? I guess it is possible if the landing was bad enough. I still think that the method mentioned by redonkulus is generally superior if the rings are big enough to accept a bight of rope. There are exceptions, of course.

i dont know the route she was on ,,, but there are often bad landing around at many crags .... it doesnt take much of a fall to get hurt sometimes ... it also depends how much a person pulls through, ive seen people pull through 10+ feet

in squamish there arent many rings around ... ie you need to thread the chains ... and there are plenty of places without rings, only chains or smallish link sin the rockies

there is a way where you can thread the rope though safely without being taken off belay ... simply clip yr safety to a bolt, pull enough through yr anchor (or to that draw you clipped yr rope at the top to the other bolt if yr not setting an anchor) to fig8 onto a biner clipped to yr belay loop, youll need to secure the rope to you anyways before untying .... then untie and feed it through the chains ... then take off the fig8 and then take apart the anchor ...

this way yr never off belay and always connected both points

IMO it better to do it this way ... as youll definately run into places where you cant feed bights through should you climb enough


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Mar 8, 2012, 7:37 AM)


donwanadi


Mar 8, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
"It seems...too easy."

Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.

.

I'm not sure why you think anyone is entitled to any greater rights over a climb as a 'leader' than anyone less experienced. Let me clarify, a TR climber, sport leader, trad leader and aid climber all have equal rights to use outdoor public space.

Hogging routes for half the day is pretty inconsiderate but setting up a TR on chains certainly doesn't take long.


sungam


Mar 8, 2012, 9:15 AM
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donwanadi wrote:
Rmsyll2 wrote:
"It seems...too easy."

Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.

.

I'm not sure why you think anyone is entitled to any greater rights over a climb as a 'leader' than anyone less experienced. Let me clarify, a TR climber, sport leader, trad leader and aid climber all have equal rights to use outdoor public space.

Hogging routes for half the day is pretty inconsiderate but setting up a TR on chains certainly doesn't take long.
Unless you camp it for hours or if you set up and drop the rope when someone is already getting ready to climb it at the bottom then it's fine.


JimTitt


Mar 8, 2012, 11:13 AM
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Your right about learning both ways, over here in the Frankenjura (and a lot of Germany) you normally can only just get the rope singly through the bolt when thereīs a krab in it. Of course you only get one bolt anyway which restricts the rigging options for top-ropers anyway!


williams122


Mar 8, 2012, 11:24 AM
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That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery. I'm doing a LOT of reading and talking to climbers before heading out. I'll def have more than just a couple draws which I only would take for a quick TR setup, and only if I'm not in the way. In addition I'll be taking a 15 and 30 foot section of 11mm static line, some 1 inch tubular webbing for slinging tress if need be, some assorted pre-sewn slings for extensions, an extra ATC and a couple 6mm loops for an autoblock and/or fench prussik to back me up if an emergency rap is required (yeah I know I'm just TRing, but what if my partner passes out, is chased by a bear or just up and decides to go home and leave my ass etc...) and of course a bunch of biners, mostly locking. I'll make sure we're not preventing any sport or trad folks from doing their thing - not to mention the best I can climb right now is 5.6-5.7, so I doubt I'll be on any routes experienced climbers are on... I appreciate all the help y'all...


bill413


Mar 8, 2012, 11:55 AM
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williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery. I'm doing a LOT of reading and talking to climbers before heading out. I'll def have more than just a couple draws which I only would take for a quick TR setup, and only if I'm not in the way. In addition I'll be taking a 15 and 30 foot section of 11mm static line, some 1 inch tubular webbing for slinging tress if need be, some assorted pre-sewn slings for extensions, an extra ATC and a couple 6mm loops for an autoblock and/or fench prussik to back me up if an emergency rap is required (yeah I know I'm just TRing, but what if my partner passes out, is chased by a bear or just up and decides to go home and leave my ass etc...) and of course a bunch of biners, mostly locking. I'll make sure we're not preventing any sport or trad folks from doing their thing - not to mention the best I can climb right now is 5.6-5.7, so I doubt I'll be on any routes experienced climbers are on... I appreciate all the help y'all...

I think you have the right idea.


jt512


Mar 8, 2012, 3:39 PM
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williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay


TonyB3


Mar 8, 2012, 4:57 PM
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jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.


jt512


Mar 8, 2012, 5:03 PM
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TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

The return of rock climbing's Tony Bubb, moron on every climbing site he visits.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 8, 2012, 5:10 PM)


shotwell


Mar 9, 2012, 9:21 AM
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TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.


Partner cracklover


Mar 9, 2012, 10:06 AM
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shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO


shotwell


Mar 9, 2012, 10:21 AM
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cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Truer words never spoken. I initially wanted to call it cyclical for rc.com, but reflection reminds me that this has been the case for a long, long time. Thanks to Jay for being willing to take the heat (again) for calling out incompetence.

As usual, thanks for your measured response Gabe. You're one of the few posters here that has learned the lessons that only experience can teach. I don't always agree with you, but most of our differences come about because I sport climb a lot Laugh.


bearbreeder


Mar 9, 2012, 10:48 AM
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theres a difference between answering peoples questions and newer people asking questions ... and this particular person who constantly seeks overly complex 2 bolt TR anchors that serve no purpose ...

someone who seeks to really learn should simply use the tried and true basics that is taught by guides or respectable climbing books ... not all this fancy stuff that serves no purpose ...

KISS ... complexity will kill you when yr cold, tired, hungry and in the dark ...

a genuinely new person who tries to learn is very different from some top rope tough guy that tries to show off by sprouting off about how his fancy "safe" anchor setups on 2 bolts ...


marc801


Mar 9, 2012, 12:06 PM
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williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.
As at least 4 others have said, please, you can listen to what this guy says, but remember that most of the experienced climbers here do not consider his recommendations and advice particularly accurate or optimal. He is still very much a beginner with only marginally more experience than other beginners.


shockabuku


Mar 9, 2012, 12:37 PM
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cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.


shotwell


Mar 9, 2012, 1:29 PM
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shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

I also want it to be clear that I'm practically begging the moderation staff to take a firmer hand in this forum and taking heavy handed action against repeat posters of unsafe practices. I understand that this is highly subjective and would have to be at the discretion of the mod staff. I understand that it is onerous. But can you seriously justify creating an environment where only the crap floats to the top? Crap anchors, crap belays, and crap climbers kill people.

Protecting people from themselves is an exercise in futility, but surely we can protect them from the most egregious posters of dangerous information.


JimTitt


Mar 9, 2012, 1:31 PM
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cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

I agree entirely.

And what happened to the guy with the two belays devices? At least he was entertaining in a twisted sort of way.


olderic


Mar 9, 2012, 1:48 PM
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shotwell wrote:

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

The concept is fundamentally flawed. It's nice to have a "Beginner's" area to give the appearance of being a full service site. But what happens is that it gets dominated by the intermediate level climber who thinks he is an expert. For many of them - won't name names but its pretty obvious - being perceived as a big fish (in this little pond) is vitally important - seems to be their whole life in some cases. Most of the advice they give is fundamentally sound but it is usually passed along as the only way of doing things - they perceive things very black and white.

Occasionally you get a true expert responding (although the ones who do are trolling for accolades at least subconsciously) responding. The problem with that is that unless it is some really obscure question - unlikely coming from a beginner (how to set an anchor off of bolts is not an obscure question) - then the expert is still creating the answer from scratch and is unlikely to do as good a job at it as has already been done elsewhere.

The quality response to 99% of the questions posed here would be an indirect one - a reference to some resource that covers the subject in depth (a book). But it won't happen because:
1. The responders want to showcase their knowledge (maintain their big fish status).
2. The asker is likely of the instant gratification type - why did he post his question here instead of doing some research? - and won't go for the work of digging deeper.


marc801


Mar 9, 2012, 3:35 PM
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shotwell wrote:
The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

When I did exactly that in another thread, I was accused by the n00b in question of leading an internet lynch mob against said n00b, engaging in a personal attack, and being biased against beginners.


shotwell


Mar 9, 2012, 3:40 PM
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marc801 wrote:
shotwell wrote:
The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

When I did exactly that in another thread, I was accused by the n00b in question of leading an internet lynch mob against said n00b, engaging in a personal attack, and being biased against beginners.

This is exactly when the moderation team would need to step in and moderate!


jt512


Mar 9, 2012, 4:17 PM
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shotwell wrote:
marc801 wrote:
shotwell wrote:
The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

When I did exactly that in another thread, I was accused by the n00b in question of leading an internet lynch mob against said n00b, engaging in a personal attack, and being biased against beginners.

This is exactly when the moderation team would need to step in and moderate!

The moderators here tend to side with the n00b. This is the only website I know where it's considered more acceptable to start a new thread asking the same question that's already on the front page twice than it is to suggest to the n00b that he read the other two threads.

Jay


shotwell


Mar 9, 2012, 4:28 PM
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jt512 wrote:
shotwell wrote:
marc801 wrote:
shotwell wrote:
The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

When I did exactly that in another thread, I was accused by the n00b in question of leading an internet lynch mob against said n00b, engaging in a personal attack, and being biased against beginners.

This is exactly when the moderation team would need to step in and moderate!

The moderators here tend to side with the n00b. This is the only website I know where it's considered more acceptable to start a new thread asking the same question that's already on the front page twice than it is to suggest to the n00b that he read the other two threads.

Jay

I've noticed the same. Pretty bizzarre, honestly.

I'll publicly note that I reported the post earlier in the thread linking to the gallery. No moderation has happened, so it seems to me the moderation team doesn't see this as an issue. I get that the moderation team may not see it as their responsibility to help vett info for accuracy. However, if they choose not to support the voice of experience (who are attempting community moderation techniques) this is incredibly troubling.


williams122


Mar 9, 2012, 8:05 PM
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Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.


marc801


Mar 9, 2012, 8:56 PM
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williams122 wrote:
Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.
I don't have time for this right now. Just wanted to preserve it should the poster decide to take it down.


csproul


Mar 10, 2012, 5:17 AM
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williams122 wrote:
To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

Taking bad advice about an f-stop from a so-called internet expert will not get you killed. Listening to bad advice on this forum can.

williams122 wrote:
As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info -.

The problem is that you, just like any other new person, most likely can't tell the difference between the good, bad, and ugly. The person who posted those pictures most certainly cannot tell the difference. You actually got your answer right away. Two draws on two bolts are fine and two draws with lockers are more than fine. Yet, you managed to single out and thank the one clueless person who repeatedly posts complete nonsense and not the numerous people who gave you useful advise. This is what frustrates people like Jay. It's not your fault, it is the fault of less than knowledgeable posters who continue to give (bad) advice.


johnwesely


Mar 10, 2012, 7:13 AM
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I just want to know what this person was thinking...



marc801


Mar 10, 2012, 7:17 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]
"I want to prove I'm a badass toprope anchor builder that can take a simple anchor and turn it into a massive clusterfuck that will impress the clueless n00bs"?

More simply: "I'm a fucking moron."


ceebo


Mar 10, 2012, 7:57 AM
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And to think people take joy in making anchors... i can't think of anything more boring in climbing. Apart from coiling rope.

WTB asimo with coil/anchor programs.


bearbreeder


Mar 10, 2012, 10:09 AM
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a 2 bolt anchor should be more boring than leave it to beaver reruns in a geriatric home ...

if yr building "exciting" 2 bolt TR anchors ... something is truly wrong

to the OP ... dont learn something as fundamental as anchors on an internet forum ... craig luebbens rock climbing anchors book will take care of most yr questions, and there are reputable internet sites run by people who generally know what they are doing such as BMC, climbing.com, BMC, etc ....

and then there are the experienced neglected old geezers who lust students with young tender flesh creeping away in some old corner of the gym at this time of the year
Tongue


JimTitt


Mar 10, 2012, 10:41 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]

How do you know it was a top-roper? We arenīt the only people out there enjoying the fresh air and tying knots http://www.outsidebondage.com/


johnwesely


Mar 10, 2012, 1:10 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]

How do you know it was a top-roper? We arenīt the only people out there enjoying the fresh air and tying knots http://www.outsidebondage.com/

Why did I think this wouldn't be a porn site?


ablanchard17


Mar 11, 2012, 1:35 PM
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in almost every top rope anchor situation 2 opposite and opposet quickdraws are perfectly fine.


shotwell


Mar 11, 2012, 4:24 PM
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williams122 wrote:
Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.

I have no issue with you posting this question. I have an issue with someone without the requisite competence to give you a decent answer responding. This is all I wanted to say, and all Jay said in the first post he made. The other posts seem to be a slight outpouring of frustration from people that actually want to see you get the answer you should.

Cool your jets, no one was laughing at you. We were lamenting that a fool was giving you info he still can't understand is bad.

To echo some other posters, a good anchor book will take you a long way. Honestly though, two draws will work for most two bolt anchors.


lena_chita
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Mar 12, 2012, 8:35 AM
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shotwell wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

I also want it to be clear that I'm practically begging the moderation staff to take a firmer hand in this forum and taking heavy handed action against repeat posters of unsafe practices. I understand that this is highly subjective and would have to be at the discretion of the mod staff. I understand that it is onerous. But can you seriously justify creating an environment where only the crap floats to the top? Crap anchors, crap belays, and crap climbers kill people.

Protecting people from themselves is an exercise in futility, but surely we can protect them from the most egregious posters of dangerous information.

It is a tough call.

Yes, the guidelines for beginner forum say this:

In reply to:
If you wish to answer a question then please ensure that it is accurate, well researched and concise.

But unless you assign specific people to answer questions, which is simply not feasible on a forum of this nature, you are going to get answers from everyone, including people who shouldn't be answering. And assigning the duty of sorting good advice from bad advice to moderators is simply shifting the job of answering the questions by one level.


The only way to deal with inaccurate information long-term is to call out the posters who make these inaccurate answers and not let it slide.

Overall, this does happen. Maybe not efficiently, and with a lot of extra noise and snide remarks back and forth, and all that, but I cannot think of a single thread in recent memory where an obviously incorrect answer was not called out and critiqued.


ceebo


Mar 12, 2012, 3:28 PM
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lena_chita wrote:
shotwell wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

I also want it to be clear that I'm practically begging the moderation staff to take a firmer hand in this forum and taking heavy handed action against repeat posters of unsafe practices. I understand that this is highly subjective and would have to be at the discretion of the mod staff. I understand that it is onerous. But can you seriously justify creating an environment where only the crap floats to the top? Crap anchors, crap belays, and crap climbers kill people.

Protecting people from themselves is an exercise in futility, but surely we can protect them from the most egregious posters of dangerous information.

It is a tough call.

Yes, the guidelines for beginner forum say this:

In reply to:
If you wish to answer a question then please ensure that it is accurate, well researched and concise.

But unless you assign specific people to answer questions, which is simply not feasible on a forum of this nature, you are going to get answers from everyone, including people who shouldn't be answering. And assigning the duty of sorting good advice from bad advice to moderators is simply shifting the job of answering the questions by one level.


The only way to deal with inaccurate information long-term is to call out the posters who make these inaccurate answers and not let it slide.

Overall, this does happen. Maybe not efficiently, and with a lot of extra noise and snide remarks back and forth, and all that, but I cannot think of a single thread in recent memory where an obviously incorrect answer was not called out and critiqued.

Congradulations.. you just gave jay a reason to live.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Mar 18, 2012, 11:50 AM
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williams122 wrote:
Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.

Look, I'm a noob. I have a high post count, but I'm still a noob. I have used RC.n00b as a key source for learning how to setup top rope anchors. And, unlike most, I recommend this spot to others as a great learning experience. Usually my reasons are exactly the ones you said were wrong with this place. Please take the time to go back and re-read all of the responses in this thread and do it slowly. Look not from yourself (the OP is most often not the key point of contention), but as if you are a judge and you are trying to understand all of the parties involved and at the end you are determining who lives and who dies. If you feel that you can not clearly see who is right and who is wrong then go back and re-read again. Look up other beginner threads.



Then, please look at the following image:


Use your improved sense of what constitutes a "good" anchor. Then stop and look at the posts below. I'm sure someone will correctly point out what is right and someone will incorrectly point out what is wrong. (Hell someone is likely to even guess the route).

Lather, rinse, repeat. It is how you get better. Welcome my friend, welcome...
Attachments: CS at top.jpg (138 KB)


Forums : Climbing Information : Beginners

 


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