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Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR?
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johnwesely


Mar 10, 2012, 7:13 AM
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Re: [csproul] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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I just want to know what this person was thinking...



marc801


Mar 10, 2012, 7:17 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]
"I want to prove I'm a badass toprope anchor builder that can take a simple anchor and turn it into a massive clusterfuck that will impress the clueless n00bs"?

More simply: "I'm a fucking moron."


ceebo


Mar 10, 2012, 7:57 AM
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Re: [marc801] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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And to think people take joy in making anchors... i can't think of anything more boring in climbing. Apart from coiling rope.

WTB asimo with coil/anchor programs.


bearbreeder


Mar 10, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Re: [ceebo] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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a 2 bolt anchor should be more boring than leave it to beaver reruns in a geriatric home ...

if yr building "exciting" 2 bolt TR anchors ... something is truly wrong

to the OP ... dont learn something as fundamental as anchors on an internet forum ... craig luebbens rock climbing anchors book will take care of most yr questions, and there are reputable internet sites run by people who generally know what they are doing such as BMC, climbing.com, BMC, etc ....

and then there are the experienced neglected old geezers who lust students with young tender flesh creeping away in some old corner of the gym at this time of the year
Tongue


JimTitt


Mar 10, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]

How do you know it was a top-roper? We arenīt the only people out there enjoying the fresh air and tying knots http://www.outsidebondage.com/


johnwesely


Mar 10, 2012, 1:10 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
I just want to know what this person was thinking...
[image]http://climbpilotnc.us/ClimbingAreas/Beach/Spindrift%20anchors7c%20sm.jpg[/image]

How do you know it was a top-roper? We arenīt the only people out there enjoying the fresh air and tying knots http://www.outsidebondage.com/

Why did I think this wouldn't be a porn site?


ablanchard17


Mar 11, 2012, 1:35 PM
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Re: [sungam] Quickdraws with locking biners enough on bolts for TR? [In reply to]
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in almost every top rope anchor situation 2 opposite and opposet quickdraws are perfectly fine.


shotwell


Mar 11, 2012, 4:24 PM
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Re: [williams122] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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williams122 wrote:
Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.

I have no issue with you posting this question. I have an issue with someone without the requisite competence to give you a decent answer responding. This is all I wanted to say, and all Jay said in the first post he made. The other posts seem to be a slight outpouring of frustration from people that actually want to see you get the answer you should.

Cool your jets, no one was laughing at you. We were lamenting that a fool was giving you info he still can't understand is bad.

To echo some other posters, a good anchor book will take you a long way. Honestly though, two draws will work for most two bolt anchors.


lena_chita
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Mar 12, 2012, 8:35 AM
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Re: [shotwell] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

I also want it to be clear that I'm practically begging the moderation staff to take a firmer hand in this forum and taking heavy handed action against repeat posters of unsafe practices. I understand that this is highly subjective and would have to be at the discretion of the mod staff. I understand that it is onerous. But can you seriously justify creating an environment where only the crap floats to the top? Crap anchors, crap belays, and crap climbers kill people.

Protecting people from themselves is an exercise in futility, but surely we can protect them from the most egregious posters of dangerous information.

It is a tough call.

Yes, the guidelines for beginner forum say this:

In reply to:
If you wish to answer a question then please ensure that it is accurate, well researched and concise.

But unless you assign specific people to answer questions, which is simply not feasible on a forum of this nature, you are going to get answers from everyone, including people who shouldn't be answering. And assigning the duty of sorting good advice from bad advice to moderators is simply shifting the job of answering the questions by one level.


The only way to deal with inaccurate information long-term is to call out the posters who make these inaccurate answers and not let it slide.

Overall, this does happen. Maybe not efficiently, and with a lot of extra noise and snide remarks back and forth, and all that, but I cannot think of a single thread in recent memory where an obviously incorrect answer was not called out and critiqued.


ceebo


Mar 12, 2012, 3:28 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
shotwell wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
cracklover wrote:
shotwell wrote:
TonyB3 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
williams122 wrote:
That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

I also want it to be clear that I'm practically begging the moderation staff to take a firmer hand in this forum and taking heavy handed action against repeat posters of unsafe practices. I understand that this is highly subjective and would have to be at the discretion of the mod staff. I understand that it is onerous. But can you seriously justify creating an environment where only the crap floats to the top? Crap anchors, crap belays, and crap climbers kill people.

Protecting people from themselves is an exercise in futility, but surely we can protect them from the most egregious posters of dangerous information.

It is a tough call.

Yes, the guidelines for beginner forum say this:

In reply to:
If you wish to answer a question then please ensure that it is accurate, well researched and concise.

But unless you assign specific people to answer questions, which is simply not feasible on a forum of this nature, you are going to get answers from everyone, including people who shouldn't be answering. And assigning the duty of sorting good advice from bad advice to moderators is simply shifting the job of answering the questions by one level.


The only way to deal with inaccurate information long-term is to call out the posters who make these inaccurate answers and not let it slide.

Overall, this does happen. Maybe not efficiently, and with a lot of extra noise and snide remarks back and forth, and all that, but I cannot think of a single thread in recent memory where an obviously incorrect answer was not called out and critiqued.

Congradulations.. you just gave jay a reason to live.


Toast_in_the_Machine


Mar 18, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: [williams122] Reply: [williams122] [In reply to]
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williams122 wrote:
Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.

Look, I'm a noob. I have a high post count, but I'm still a noob. I have used RC.n00b as a key source for learning how to setup top rope anchors. And, unlike most, I recommend this spot to others as a great learning experience. Usually my reasons are exactly the ones you said were wrong with this place. Please take the time to go back and re-read all of the responses in this thread and do it slowly. Look not from yourself (the OP is most often not the key point of contention), but as if you are a judge and you are trying to understand all of the parties involved and at the end you are determining who lives and who dies. If you feel that you can not clearly see who is right and who is wrong then go back and re-read again. Look up other beginner threads.



Then, please look at the following image:


Use your improved sense of what constitutes a "good" anchor. Then stop and look at the posts below. I'm sure someone will correctly point out what is right and someone will incorrectly point out what is wrong. (Hell someone is likely to even guess the route).

Lather, rinse, repeat. It is how you get better. Welcome my friend, welcome...
Attachments: CS at top.jpg (138 KB)

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