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jam3s_


Mar 17, 2012, 12:42 PM
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Belaying Directly from Belay Loop
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Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James


jt512


Mar 17, 2012, 12:44 PM
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What's a "figure 8 loop"?


shotwell


Mar 17, 2012, 12:50 PM
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jt512 wrote:
What's a "figure 8 loop"?

Just a guess here, but probably the loop a tie-in knot creates. Why this is being suggested is beyond me.


shotwell


Mar 17, 2012, 12:51 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

James, you should probably just belay off of your harness belay loop. That is what it is there for.

Personally, I'd be asking myself some questions about the other things taught in that class.


edge


Mar 17, 2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: [jt512] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
What's a "figure 8 loop"?

I'm guessing he means the loop created when you tie in with a follow through figure 8 knot.

To the OP, it is called a belay loop for a reason, and is the strongest part of the harness. Use it as such.


curt


Mar 17, 2012, 1:10 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

I'm not sure why, but I always find myself belaying off the belay loop of my harness--and tying in through the tie-in loops. Go figure.

Curt


amyas


Mar 17, 2012, 1:14 PM
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such a conformist


jt512


Mar 17, 2012, 1:20 PM
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shotwell wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What's a "figure 8 loop"?

Just a guess here, but probably the loop a tie-in knot creates.

Oddly enough, I rarely seem to have one of those when I belay.

Jay


shotwell


Mar 17, 2012, 1:25 PM
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jt512 wrote:
shotwell wrote:
jt512 wrote:
What's a "figure 8 loop"?

Just a guess here, but probably the loop a tie-in knot creates.

Oddly enough, I rarely seem to have one of those when I belay.

Jay

I could see being tied in as a possibility if this was a multi-pitch climbing course, but it seems to be Lead Climbing 101 - Or, how not to die sport climbing. The nature of the class certainly makes the suggestion as bizzarre as it could reasonably be.


jam3s_


Mar 17, 2012, 1:27 PM
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I did ask why and he said there were three advantages which were:

1) The belay loop is static and by belaying off a figure 8 you got the advantage of the dynamic loop.

2) You could apparntly untie yourself in the even of an emergency.

3) So you dont belay past the end of the rope

Still seems a bit wierd to me,


shotwell


Mar 17, 2012, 1:30 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
I did ask why and he said there were three advantages which were:

1) The belay loop is static and by belaying off a figure 8 you got the advantage of the dynamic loop.

2) You could apparntly untie yourself in the even of an emergency.

3) So you dont belay past the end of the rope

Still seems a bit wierd to me,

1) The rope is dynamic, so this isn't really an issue. Use the belay loop.

2)...what? If you 'untie' yourself, you're taking your partner off belay in this situation. Ignore this and belay off the belay loop.

3) If you're worried about lowering your climber off the end of the rope, tie a knot in the end. Tying yourself in for anything other than a pitch you're going to follow is just going to eat up more of the rope you're using to lower your partner. Belay off the belay loop.


vinnie83


Mar 17, 2012, 1:46 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
2) You could apparntly untie yourself in the even of an emergency.

Anyone ever tried to untie a loaded figure eight? Loaded as in has a climber hanging from it, not as in it 'was' loaded in a fall and has been cinched tight. Someday you should learn how to tie a load releasing hitch and escape the belay, it's a good skill to have if you ever plan on venturing more than 100' off the deck.

As for the static/dynamic thing-think about how you calculate a fall factor. How much does the foot of rope that makes your tie in loop add to the amount of rope that can absorb the force of a fall?


Partner rgold


Mar 17, 2012, 2:27 PM
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Whenever I am tied to an anchor, I always clip the belay device to the "figure-8 loop," which is to say the loop of rope which is the part of your tie-in knot that threads through the harness. The idea is to transmit the load directly to the anchor via the tie-in, rather than subject the harness to various opposing pulls and the belayer to unanticipted twists.

(Since I use double ropes, the device is clipped to both tie-in loops, which happen to be bowlines, not figure-eights.)

I learned the idea many years ago from BD engineer Chris Harmston, whose posts to rec.climbing contained some of the most informed opinions I've read anywhere.

The idea seems strange to people in this country, but it is fairly common in the UK---see for example, the article on the subject at http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1129, which also has pictures to clear up any possible confusion here about what is meant.


bearbreeder


Mar 17, 2012, 2:56 PM
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the BMC had a pamphlet that showed the advantages of belaying off the fig 8 loop in certain situations, namely in a top belay off the harness directly, yr balls dont get crushed Wink

either way would be fine, though i believe a stopper knot at the end of a fig 8 use for this purpose was advised by DMM

remember RCers, just because it aint how ya do it, doesnt mean everyone who does it the different way doesnt know what they are doing or are gonna die

Tongue


macblaze


Mar 17, 2012, 3:05 PM
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rgold wrote:
The idea is to transmit the load directly to the anchor via the tie-in, rather than subject the harness to various opposing pulls and the belayer to unanticipated twists.
...

-see for example, the article on the subject at http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1129, which also has pictures to clear up any possible confusion here about what is meant.

My god, I love it when I actually learn something on RC.com ;-)


notapplicable


Mar 17, 2012, 6:40 PM
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[Rant] No offense to the OP intended but this perfectly illustrates the disadvantage of not keeping classes like this "simple, stupid".

If you teach a technique that is only useful, or even applicable, in a narrow range of circumstances and has advantages which the students lack the experience or knowledge base to even understand, let alone employ in a real world scenario, you end up with confused students using techniques they don't understand.[/Rant]

There is no reason for the belayer to be tied in while single pitch climbing. You will just trip on the rope, bust your ass and pull your climber off the wall.

While on a multi-pitch route I will often clip both my belay loop and rope loop. That is a personal choice based on typical anchor construction. Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction. Until you have enough experience to understand the differences, it's probably best to just "KISS" and use the belay loop.


crjanow


Mar 17, 2012, 6:45 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
[Rant] No offense to the OP intended but this perfectly illustrates the disadvantage of not keeping classes like this "simple, stupid".

If you teach a technique that is only useful, or even applicable, in a narrow range of circumstances and has advantages which the students lack the experience or knowledge base to even understand, let alone employ in a real world scenario, you end up with confused students using techniques they don't understand.[/Rant]

There is no reason for the belayer to be tied in while single pitch climbing. You will just trip on the rope, bust your ass and pull your climber off the wall.

While on a multi-pitch route I will often clip both my belay loop and rope loop. That is a personal choice based on typical anchor construction. Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction. Until you have enough experience to understand the differences, it's probably best to just "KISS" and use the belay loop.
+1


petsfed


Mar 17, 2012, 7:28 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
Hello All

I have just been on a lead climbing course and the intructor said to belay off a figue 8 loop rather than the belay loop of the harness. In every book and video I have seen everyone seems to belay straight off their harness belay loop is there any advantage to belaying off a figure 8?

Thanks
James

You get a lot of really dumb instructors, don't you?

I will draw attention to specific practices I use just so students are aware that they are doing certain things, but an instructor should never specifically contravene a manufacturer's instructions without also spending a lot of time justifying that decision to the students.


USnavy


Mar 18, 2012, 2:24 AM
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jam3s_ wrote:
I did ask why and he said there were three advantages which were:

1) The belay loop is static and by belaying off a figure 8 you got the advantage of the dynamic loop.
I am surprised no one has caught this yet. Clipping into the figure eight loop that runs through your tie in points is extremely dangerous, maybe even a death sentence. The figure eight knot is extremely weak when loaded perpendicular to the knot. Basically what you are doing is loading the knot just like the figure eight version of the EDK knot which is well know as being a death sentence, in fact, at least one person died doing that. So basically, never clip anything into the figure eight loop that runs through your tie in points.

notapplicable wrote:
[Rant]
Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction.

Clipping into the belay loop by itself is fine. Clipping into the figure eight knot is extremely dangerous for the reason I just explained above. Never clip anything into the figure eight loop!!!

Look here: http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

Notice the flat figure eight pull tests. This guy was able to get the figure eight to capsize with as little as 110 lbs! Considering how much tail the knot eats when it capsizes, you could find yourself completely untied after a single capsize!


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 18, 2012, 2:35 AM)


JimTitt


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Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.


guangzhou


Mar 18, 2012, 7:15 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.

You beat me to the answer Jim.

I often clip both.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Mar 18, 2012, 7:20 AM)


Partner rgold


Mar 18, 2012, 9:34 AM
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Clipping into the rope loop does not load it perpendicular to the anchor strand when belaying the second off the harness or when catching a factor-2 leader fall.

When belaying the leader, it is possible to get such loading, instantaneously. (As far as I know, the figure-8 has never been tested for rolling under off-axis instantaneous impacts.)

In leader falls where the anchor actually comes into play, the loading of the anchor strand means the situation is completely different from the EDK loading tests, in which neither of the ends is under any tension. Tension in the anchor strand will inhibit rolling for the same reason an extra stopper knot does for the EDK; it prevents rope from feeding into the knot, a prerequisite for rolling behavior.

That leaves only low instantaneous loads that are not enough to lift the belayer onto the anchor. The BMC article does suggest a stopper knot to back up the figure-8. Many climbers do this anyway, and such a knot would eliminate even the remote possibility of the figure-8 knot rolling.

With my half ropes, I use bowlines with "Yosemite finish" and double overhand backup after that, then I clip both loops, so no worries for me.

Probably the best tie-in knot of all is the rethreaded bowline on a bight, which puts two loops in the harness tie-in points. Using such a knot and clipping those rope loops would be beyond bomber.

But getting back to the figure-8, tie a backup knot as you probably should anyway and clip the rope loop with no conceivable worries.


shotwell


Mar 18, 2012, 9:56 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
[Rant] No offense to the OP intended but this perfectly illustrates the disadvantage of not keeping classes like this "simple, stupid".

If you teach a technique that is only useful, or even applicable, in a narrow range of circumstances and has advantages which the students lack the experience or knowledge base to even understand, let alone employ in a real world scenario, you end up with confused students using techniques they don't understand.[/Rant]

There is no reason for the belayer to be tied in while single pitch climbing. You will just trip on the rope, bust your ass and pull your climber off the wall.

While on a multi-pitch route I will often clip both my belay loop and rope loop. That is a personal choice based on typical anchor construction. Using one or the other by itself is fine and can be more or less advantageous depending on individual anchor construction. Until you have enough experience to understand the differences, it's probably best to just "KISS" and use the belay loop.

My thoughts exactly.


ceebo


Mar 18, 2012, 11:39 AM
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rgold wrote:
Whenever I am tied to an anchor, I always clip the belay device to the "figure-8 loop," which is to say the loop of rope which is the part of your tie-in knot that threads through the harness. The idea is to transmit the load directly to the anchor via the tie-in, rather than subject the harness to various opposing pulls and the belayer to unanticipted twists.

(Since I use double ropes, the device is clipped to both tie-in loops, which happen to be bowlines, not figure-eights.)

I learned the idea many years ago from BD engineer Chris Harmston, whose posts to rec.climbing contained some of the most informed opinions I've read anywhere.

The idea seems strange to people in this country, but it is fairly common in the UK---see for example, the article on the subject at http://www.ukclimbing.com/...les/page.php?id=1129, which also has pictures to clear up any possible confusion here about what is meant.

But why would this be taught to a person who i assume is learning to climb single pitch indoor on bolts?. Its nothing close to trad anchor situation.

OP, did the leader top belay you after he reached the top or something?.. it could make more sence.

Or was the guy simply giving you info on how people do things in a situation you did not realy need to know about their and then?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Mar 18, 2012, 11:41 AM)


notapplicable


Mar 18, 2012, 1:08 PM
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After skimming over this thread again, I think it's probably worth expressly stating that one is not inherently superior to the other. Which loop you want to belay from depends mostly on how you have attached yourself to the anchor.

If you have attached yourself to the master point with the rope, then you probably want to belay off the rope loop (in conjunction with the belay loop if you like).

If you have attached yourself to the masterpoint with your belay loop, then you probably want to belay off that (in conjunction with the rope loop if you like).

That said, if you are just learning multi-pitch techniques, I would suggest attaching yourself with and belaying from the belay loop. Just keep it simple. There will be plenty of time to experiment with and overthink your anchor/belay configurations later.


jam3s_


Mar 18, 2012, 3:34 PM
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In reply to:
OP, did the leader top belay you after he reached the top or something?.. it could make more sence.

No it was indoors. When we got to the top we were simply lowered to the ground.

In reply to:
Or was the guy simply giving you info on how people do things in a situation you did not realy need to know about their and then?.

He didnt give me any situations.

Thank you for all your replies, it sounds like this technique is quite normal in the UK (where I am from). However as I am new to leading and currently only lead climb indoors I might stick to the belay loop.


Partner rgold


Mar 18, 2012, 5:32 PM
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Sticking to the belay loop isn't going to hurt. Plus, the reasons you were given for the rope loop are all bogus and are, if I recall, debunked in the article on the UKC site I linked above.

I think the rope loop belay is superior in two situations. (1) Belaying the second from above from the harness, and (2) catching a factor-2 leader fall. Both of these are multi-pitch situations (one of which most climbers never experience) so you don't have to think about the issue until you're more experienced.

On a more estoteric note, the potential for rolling a "cross loaded" figure-8, I forgot to mention that, since the loads are coming on a loop, the knot itself is only getting half the impact force.

Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.

So all in all, there's really nothing to worry about.


bearbreeder


Mar 18, 2012, 8:15 PM
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jam3s_ wrote:
Thank you for all your replies, it sounds like this technique is quite normal in the UK (where I am from). However as I am new to leading and currently only lead climb indoors I might stick to the belay loop.

yr a brit???

that explains it ... they do weird things ... like climb on doubles for even the most straight up climbs around here ... and walk around the bluffs with all those hexes ...

Tongue


USnavy


Mar 19, 2012, 4:21 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.
That assumes you are tied into the belay with the rope on a multipitch route. That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to simply using the rope loop in place of the belay loop in a general scene. If you are tied into the belay with slings or on a single pitch route, you are not tied into anything with the rope, so you are loading only the rope loop.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 19, 2012, 4:23 AM)


curt


Mar 20, 2012, 10:48 AM
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USnavy wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
Rubbish, the rope loop has been used for decades with no problems whatsoever, to quote Jack Geldard who wrote the UKC article linked above (and who is an extremely copetent and experienced climber "This 'rope loop' is extremely strong and is perfectly adequate for belaying from."
The circumstances between what you are talking about and belaying are different as the load comes on the strand to the belay and the rope loop is never ring loaded.
That assumes you are tied into the belay with the rope on a multipitch route. That's not what I was referring to. I was referring to simply using the rope loop in place of the belay loop in a general scene. If you are tied into the belay with slings...

Then you're not too bright, eh?

Curt


Colinhoglund


Mar 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Otherwise it seems fine to use the tie in loop, (not that I do). But the BELAY loop works great for BELAYING!

On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.


Partner robdotcalm


Mar 20, 2012, 11:34 AM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Here's the link

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=2538384;page=unread

r.c


redlude97


Mar 20, 2012, 11:45 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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It depends on what version of the "yosemite finish", or fig 8 follow through you use. http://alpineinstitute.blogspot.com/...-follow-through.html


roguecrimson


Mar 20, 2012, 4:19 PM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
Sticking to the belay loop isn't going to hurt. Plus, the reasons you were given for the rope loop are all bogus and are, if I recall, debunked in the article on the UKC site I linked above.

I think the rope loop belay is superior in two situations. (1) Belaying the second from above from the harness, and (2) catching a factor-2 leader fall. Both of these are multi-pitch situations (one of which most climbers never experience) so you don't have to think about the issue until you're more experienced.

On a more estoteric note, the potential for rolling a "cross loaded" figure-8, I forgot to mention that, since the loads are coming on a loop, the knot itself is only getting half the impact force.

Moyer's tests suggest that a well-tied figure-8 can roll at 750 lbf, which would mean the rope loop would need a rather hefty 1500 lbf for rolling to occur. At that level, there is no doubt that the belayer is going to be yanked hard against the anchor, in which case tension on the anchor strand will, I think, make rolling impossible. This is, of course, doubly hypothetical in the presence of a back-up knot on the figure-8.

So all in all, there's really nothing to worry about.

Always listen to rgold !! smart guyCool


shockabuku


Mar 20, 2012, 5:39 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.


redlude97


Mar 20, 2012, 6:01 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness


Colinhoglund


Mar 21, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.


Partner rgold


Mar 21, 2012, 3:35 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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As a non-user of figure-8's, I wasn't aware of the effects of various "finishing" techniques on the rolling of the knot. It seems that the main drawback of the figure-8, the difficulty of untying it after loading, has led to some "finishing" techniques that have the far worse side-effect of making the knot far more unstable under ring-loading.

Tying a double overhand knot with the short strand on the load strand will back up a figure-8 to the bombproof level as far as ring-loading is concerned. But if the problem to be avoided is untying difficulty, then another knot is a better idea than messing with the figure-8 by adding extra turns and tucks.

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognoscenti will adopt that knot.

Edit: Corrected the misspelling "cognescenti" after being alerted to it by Jay.


(This post was edited by rgold on Mar 27, 2012, 3:32 PM)


shockabuku


Mar 21, 2012, 7:32 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.

I guess that's why it said "side note", huh?


guangzhou


Mar 21, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:

As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

Love mine. Especially after a few big falls.


majid_sabet


Mar 21, 2012, 11:39 PM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 21, 2012, 11:46 PM)


guangzhou


Mar 22, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:






CrazyPirate


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Mar 22, 2012, 12:43 AM)


jt512


Mar 22, 2012, 1:09 AM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
As Jim says, a rethreaded bowline on a bight is better than a figure-8 anyway, but convention being what it is, it seems unlikely that anything more than a fringe group of cognescenti will adopt that knot.

Richard, oddly enough, you've simultaneously taught me a new word and shown me how not to spell it.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 22, 2012, 1:16 AM)


alooker


Mar 22, 2012, 8:13 AM
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Re: [jam3s_] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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I was doing a required 'induction' at a wall close to where I've just moved - the guy asks me to set up a belay, which I do as I always have done, from the belay loop. He then runs over and says NO NO NO! Always belay from the rope loops, it gives a more dynamic belay. Made me look like a fool in front of a class he was teaching. Jobsworth.

Didn't want to argue with him so I did it that way, a tiny rope loops isn't going to have much stretch though, right?! And a knot tightening is not going to be the decider on a fall now is it... Belay loop it is for me.


Colinhoglund


Mar 22, 2012, 8:43 AM
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Re: [shockabuku] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
On a side note. Using the tie in loops to belay off of is a less than great ideal. It rotates the belay device 90* and would cause a gri gri, cinch or smart to behave weirdly. An "atc" style device is less effected, but why????? Your 25 Kn belay loop Isn't going to fail. And if your worried it might, it's probably cus your harness is tattered and old, buy a new one dirtbag Tongue.

The tie in loop (of rope) should be in a plane essentially parallel to the belay loop but to one side of it. It should not do anything different to your belay device than the belay loop does in regard to orientation.
He's talking about the tie in loops on the harness

Correct.

I guess that's why it said "side note", huh?

Rotates 90* and loop(s) should also have been the key phrases. No worries.

The other one that bugs me is people who clip directly to the thumb loops of cams instead of the chain because it "takes one more link out of the chain that could fail" (not talking about aid here) even though most brands (especially BD) specifically warn that this lowers the strength of the cam. Humm . . . lets see, lower a 14kn cam to 10 kn? Or trust a 22kn sling? Tough one.

Anyone else have examples of uses of gear opposite to the manufacture's instructions. (ie, not trusting a belay loop for belaying.)


ptlong2


Mar 22, 2012, 1:10 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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For what it's worth, here is a worst-case scenario argument for clipping into both the rope loop and the belay loop. It is an excerpt from a short piece written back in the 1990s by Tom Jones (a harness deisgner for Black Diamond at that time).

Tom Jones wrote:
This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

The entire post can be found here: http://groups.google.com/...ce&output=gplain


Colinhoglund


Mar 22, 2012, 2:21 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
[IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3518/pict0059bg.jpg[/IMG]





[IMG]http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3194/screenhunter01mar212336.jpg[/IMG]

Just noticed this, WTF????

Over built top belay with a grigri with an OMG!!!!111!!1!1! un locked locking biner!!!!! And not even sure what Majid is trying to show in the second picture.


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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hes trying to show his "superiority" over something that has nothing to do with belaying from the rope or belay loop Tongue


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 2:38 PM
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Re: [ptlong2] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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ptlong2 wrote:
For what it's worth, here is a worst-case scenario argument for clipping into both the rope loop and the belay loop. It is an excerpt from a short piece written back in the 1990s by Tom Jones (a harness deisgner for Black Diamond at that time).

Tom Jones wrote:
This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

The entire post can be found here: http://groups.google.com/...ce&output=gplain

this also means that yr tie in should be very tight i should think ...

i can remember anyone tying in both the belay and rope loops ... all the "pro" climbers and guides ive seen just go though the belay loop generally ...


majid_sabet


Mar 22, 2012, 4:00 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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just belay off anchor and you are done.


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 5:09 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations Wink


majid_sabet


Mar 22, 2012, 5:39 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations Wink

blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop.

not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 22, 2012, 5:44 PM)


chadnsc


Mar 22, 2012, 5:56 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
[IMG]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3518/pict0059bg.jpg[/IMG]





[IMG]http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/3194/screenhunter01mar212336.jpg[/IMG]

Just noticed this, WTF????

Over built top belay with a grigri with an OMG!!!!111!!1!1! un locked locking biner!!!!! And not even sure what Majid is trying to show in the second picture.

I don't know, the first pick is just a two bolt anchor with a locker and a gri gri. I wouldn't call that overbuilt, quite simple actually.

Edit to add:
Now the second pick, that's a different story.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Mar 22, 2012, 5:58 PM)


ptlong2


Mar 22, 2012, 6:49 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
Tom Jones wrote:
This brings up why it is important to clip your belay device into
both your belay loop and the loop of the rope on multi pitch climbs. The
lead rope should be your primary anchor - your primary link from your
harness to the anchor - because it is dynamic and flexible. Your belay
biner should connect directly to the rope tie in loop so that the forces
of the belay can link directly to the anchor. Otherwise, the forces from
a severe fall would run from your belay biner to the belay loop,
to the harness, to the rope loop to the anchor. This would tend to rip
the harness apart and the results are very unpredictable. It is much
better to have the forces transfer as directly as possible to the strong
point in the system - your fully equalized, three bomber pieces anchor.

this also means that yr tie in should be very tight i should think ...

No, it doesn't matter how big the loop is.


bearbreeder wrote:
[I can't] remember anyone [clipping their belay device into] both the belay and rope loops ... all the "pro" climbers and guides [I've] seen just go though the belay loop generally ...

I haven't witnessed it either but do I know that some people do it.

I have also never heard of a belayer's harness ripping apart while catching a factor 2 fall. I just thought it was worth tossing the thoughts of a harness designer into the discussion.


sp115


Mar 22, 2012, 8:26 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations Wink

blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop.

not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.

75% you say...


TarheelJD


Mar 22, 2012, 9:38 PM
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Re: [sp115] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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So there is a problem with the idea that belaying off the rope loop is superior to the belay loop in the specific scenario where you are belaying up the second with a sub par anchor. This whole concept is premised on the thought that by belaying off the rope loop you (as the belayer) are in a better position to catch a fall with your "body" (see legs) than you would be if you were belaying from the belay loop. This is basically belaying off the anchor except with your harness tie in points running through a masterpoint made of your tie-in figure 8. I'm willing to make a strong argument that if you need (and expect) to add marginal strength to this system with your legs to safely catch a follower then your anchor isn't really an anchor.

Sure belaying from the rope loop in this scenario is probably better than the belay loop because your body wouldn't be subject to the torsional forces in a traditional belay loop situation (basically getting turned sideways as your belay loop is pulled down and the rope leads the opposite direction). But a situation where this is required is pretty rare unless you are in desperate circumstances anchor wise. More importantly, the average person perusing the beginners forum on RC is unlikely to properly identify such a situation. And perhaps most importantly, if your anchor actually is an anchor, then belay from it.

This isn't to say that using the rope loop is wrong, it's probably just more confusing than it's worth to the average person in this particular forum.


(This post was edited by TarheelJD on Mar 22, 2012, 9:40 PM)


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 10:39 PM
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ptlong2 wrote:
No, it doesn't matter how big the loop is.


yr correct ... it shouldnt matter ... brain fart ...

maybe ill see someone do it someday ... hmmmmm


bearbreeder


Mar 22, 2012, 10:41 PM
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sp115 wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
bearbreeder wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Quoted for posterity .... If you actually climbed enough youd know that direct belays off the anchors arent always the most pratical or best choice in certain situations Wink

blah blah blah and sure, if you are building chicken sh*t anchor made of two loose pieces like 75% of the climbers out there, I would not trust a 10lbs haul bag to be belay from of it but if you have a solid anchor, I see no reason why people should belay off their belay loop.

not to forget that belay off harness keeps the belayer tie-down and in case emergency where belayer needs to escape belay ( again 75% do not know how to do it), belaying off harness is not the best choice in many situations as people think.

75% you say...


a majeeeed statistic of course ...

there are perfectly good reasons to not use a direct belay in certain situations ... if majeeeeed actually climbed hed know this ....


JimTitt


Mar 23, 2012, 12:35 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Some climbers have progressed from top-roping to leading.


chadnsc


Mar 23, 2012, 6:41 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
just belay off anchor and you are done.

Some climbers have progressed from top-roping to leading.

Could be that Midget only leads and thus only belays up his second . . . .

Hahahahahahahahaha, sorry I couldn't keep a straight face through that one.


notapplicable


Mar 26, 2012, 5:07 PM
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Re: [robdotcalm] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:
One concept everyone here seems to be missing or unaware of is that using the tie in loop to belay off of is very dangerous in the case of using a "Yosemite finish". Apparently the roll over threshold is vastly reduced and because of the orientation of the free end back through the knot, it will fail on the first roll. A climbing mag (Gripped or Climbing, I don't remember) did some tests and warned against the Yosemite Finish for this purpose.

Here's the link

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...=2538384;page=unread

r.c

Interesting. Seems I was the third poster in that thread but never came back to see the concern somewhat validated.

While I'm skeptical that a figure-8 knot would roll due to the forces exerted by catching even a "worst case scenario" lead fall, I'm also not sure it's worth the risk when you can just clip the belay loop along with the rope loop. It would be interesting to see some drop tests on a few ringloaded figure-8 tie-in variations though.


looseanchor


Mar 27, 2012, 5:29 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Take a look at Figure 7 and 8 of this Petzl Instruction Manual for the Falcon Mountain harness, that shows using a retraced Figure 8 through the ventral attachment points or, in the alternative, carabiners through the belay loop.

http://www.petzl.com/...-FALCON-MOUNTAIN.pdf


Partner rgold


Mar 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Re: [looseanchor] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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That picture has nothing to do with the discussion about belaying off the rope loop rather than the belay loop.


mikebee


Mar 29, 2012, 2:11 AM
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Re: [rgold] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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Just heading back to the original topic a bit (shock horror), but there is nothing wrong with the gym teaching new lead belayers to tie in to the other end of the rope. It ingrains a good habit early on.

Once the newbs have done a bit more leading, they'll realise that they can skip that part for single pitch climbing less than half a rope length, but before that, it means that 1) it is impossible for them to lower their partner off the end of the rope, and 2) get the leader into a good habit of being able to check the belayers tie in. Checking the seconds tie in is always a good habit to be in for multi pitch climbs.
So while it is slow and tedious for a regular sport climber to be thinking about having a second who ties in, it's a case of teaching safest practice, and letting the students figure out the shortcuts themselves, when their understanding is better.

As for the current discussion regarding belaying off a tie-in loop, I had it recommended by a mountaineering guide a few years ago. His argument was not as sound as rgolds (saves weird twisting forces on the harness), but this guide reckons belay off the tie in loop, and tie in with a pretty big loop, as it declutters the belay loop and tie in points which may have daisy chains on, and will likely be partially obscured by layers of clothing and possibly a pack waistbelt. He argued that between cold, gloved hands and the clutter, keeping the belay device a bit further out makes rope management easier.


ceebo


Mar 29, 2012, 3:24 AM
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Re: [mikebee] Belaying Directly from Belay Loop [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
Just heading back to the original topic a bit (shock horror), but there is nothing wrong with the gym teaching new lead belayers to tie in to the other end of the rope. It ingrains a good habit early on.

Once the newbs have done a bit more leading, they'll realise that they can skip that part for single pitch climbing less than half a rope length, but before that, it means that 1) it is impossible for them to lower their partner off the end of the rope, and 2) get the leader into a good habit of being able to check the belayers tie in. Checking the seconds tie in is always a good habit to be in for multi pitch climbs.
So while it is slow and tedious for a regular sport climber to be thinking about having a second who ties in, it's a case of teaching safest practice, and letting the students figure out the shortcuts themselves, when their understanding is better.

As for the current discussion regarding belaying off a tie-in loop, I had it recommended by a mountaineering guide a few years ago. His argument was not as sound as rgolds (saves weird twisting forces on the harness), but this guide reckons belay off the tie in loop, and tie in with a pretty big loop, as it declutters the belay loop and tie in points which may have daisy chains on, and will likely be partially obscured by layers of clothing and possibly a pack waistbelt. He argued that between cold, gloved hands and the clutter, keeping the belay device a bit further out makes rope management easier.

If they don't include the circumstances this is used in and have the climbers actualy go through them then what is the point.

When a person is leanring the basics of TR i don't include a random piece of info like what Z clipping is..


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