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eric_k


Mar 16, 2012, 2:22 PM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
eric_k wrote:
I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins.

Eric

Why is it that climbers will often pay hundreds of dollars to get their gear, paying extra for the features they want, instead of getting rock-bottom-priced gear, but when it comes to bailing the difference between a $2-$3 sling and a $8-$10 'biner is considered to be a significant consideration?

Honestly, in about 9 years I had to leave a bail 'biner only twice.

I have collected more than a dozen of bail 'biners, and sometimes bail draws, over the same period of time. Most of them (and some more of the 'biners that I have bought) have been subsequently used as communal items, to be left on anchors for ease of cleaning, to replace bad 'biners on fixed draws, etc.

So yes, if you can't stick-clip your way up, carry an extra 'biner, or cannibalize one of your draws, and leave that 'biner. And consider it a (REALLY CHEAP!!!!) learning experience, as well as a community service.

In addition, someone else in your party may be able to finish the climb, if there's easy top access you can rap or get lowered to retrieve gear, or a neighboring route may be close enough to let you recover your biner.

I'd suggest just spending $5.50 on a BD oval. Leave that sucker on your harness and you have a cheap alternative without cannibalizing a more expensive 'biner from your draw. That's probably less than you'll spend on gas getting to the crag or drinks/food afterward.

The masses have spoken and I stand corrected. This injustice is what people taught me to do and truth be told I only have done it twice. But never again.

Eric


Partner cracklover


Mar 16, 2012, 2:25 PM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.

I normally respect your opinion, but that kind of logic would keep my kid in velcro shoes for the rest of his life.

Nonsense. I lately discovered there's a way of tying a bow knot that is more secure. I now use it on my slippers, which have a way of coming undone all too often. But it's not the way I learned, nor is it the way I would teach my kid if I had one. The kid would learn the straightforward "good enough" approach. Not the one that is much trickier to learn, and if you do it wrong, won't work.

Besides when someone else's life is literally on the line, don't you take the conservative approach to helping them?

GO


Partner cracklover


Mar 16, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
I normally respect your opinion

Oh, and thanks for that^^^

GLaugh


moose_droppings


Mar 16, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Re: [eric_k] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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eric_k wrote:

The masses have spoken and I stand corrected. This injustice is what people taught me to do and truth be told I only have done it twice. But never again.

Eric

What a refreshing attitude.
You rock dude.


vinnie83


Mar 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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Since no one else has mentioned it yet, if you have some extra webbing and are less than 1/3 of a rope length off the ground you can bail without leaving anything on the route, but you should probably throw away the $1.50 worth of webbing that you just pulled the rope through.

Having said that I usually bring one of the countless leaver biners I have collected over the years with me when I plan on doing hard sport climbing as it is much easier and it doesn't cost me anything.


ceebo


Mar 17, 2012, 9:19 AM
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Re: [vinnie83] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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Sorry but i have to say it.. DOWN CLIMB???. But ofc, every bail is from a severely overhanging dynamic route where you are enforced not to weight rope and rest at every bolt. Its against ethics.


healyje


Mar 17, 2012, 9:35 AM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.

I normally respect your opinion, but that kind of logic would keep my kid in velcro shoes for the rest of his life.

And how long did he climb with you before you cut him loose to figure out things on his own?


bigo


Mar 17, 2012, 9:51 AM
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Re: [Beginner_2] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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Leave a biner and lower. There is no good reason to leave an entire draw. Eventually you will take as many bail biners as you leave.

Some people will leave hardware store quicklink in an effort to save a buck - don't do this - it makes it a PITA for the next climber(s) who have to deal with the often welded shut quiclink.

All the other texas rope trick sling methods are more effort than they are worth.


healyje


Mar 17, 2012, 12:21 PM
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Re: [bigo] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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bigo wrote:
Leave a biner and lower. There is no good reason to leave an entire draw.

There is a good reason and that reason is a beginner shouldn't be screwing around trying swap gear and the rope, it just opens the door to bad things happening. Let a more experienced partner go up and do it.

If there's one thing I know after this many years of climbing is there are a remarkably endless number of ways to screw up the simplest thing - beginners shouldn't tempt fate no matter how trivial the operation may seem on the surface.


vinnie83


Mar 17, 2012, 1:32 PM
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Re: [healyje] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
bigo wrote:
Leave a biner and lower. There is no good reason to leave an entire draw.

There is a good reason and that reason is a beginner shouldn't be screwing around trying swap gear and the rope, it just opens the door to bad things happening. Let a more experienced partner go up and do it.

If there's one thing I know after this many years of climbing is there are a remarkably endless number of ways to screw up the simplest thing - beginners shouldn't tempt fate no matter how trivial the operation may seem on the surface.

What do you define as a beginner? What should and shouldn't a beginner be doing?

I would consider being able to clean an anchor and set up for a lower or rappel a required skill before someone starts leading. This is much more complicated and has more serious consequences than switching out a biner for a quickdraw.

If you screw up switching out a biner you're probably looking at about the same fall as if you were to blow a clip on lead. How bad this is really depends on the route, but it is still relatively simple if you can tie your own knot, lead a sport route, clip into the anchors, and clean the route.


bigo


Mar 17, 2012, 1:49 PM
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Re: [healyje] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
bigo wrote:
Leave a biner and lower. There is no good reason to leave an entire draw.

There is a good reason and that reason is a beginner shouldn't be screwing around trying swap gear and the rope, it just opens the door to bad things happening. Let a more experienced partner go up and do it.

If there's one thing I know after this many years of climbing is there are a remarkably endless number of ways to screw up the simplest thing - beginners shouldn't tempt fate no matter how trivial the operation may seem on the surface.

You of course are entitled to your opinion, but I thought you did not sport climb? The times I have been to beacon rock, the perma gumby to climber ratio seemed a little high. Perhaps you have a skewed opinion.

I would argue anyone that is leading a route should have enough climbing experience to clip a biner. I am sure there are people who can 'screw up even the simplest task', but I do not see that as a reason to provide overly conservative advice. To say the standard for bailing off a sport route for beginners is to leave an entire draw is a bit dramatic IMO.

How do you recommend a beginning leader cleans a route? What operations should a beginner do? When is a beginner not a beginner any longer?


edit to say I see vinnie essentially beat me to my own post... :)


(This post was edited by bigo on Mar 17, 2012, 1:52 PM)


healyje


Mar 17, 2012, 2:19 PM
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Re: [bigo] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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bigo wrote:
When is a beginner not a beginner any longer?)

When they've been brought along appropriately by someone who knows what they're doing.

You guys can squawk all you want, but the number of accidents in climbing these days speaks for itself that people regularly get out ahead of themselves.


(This post was edited by healyje on Mar 17, 2012, 2:20 PM)


jt512


Mar 17, 2012, 6:00 PM
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Re: [healyje] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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At my crags, I prefer it when beginners leave two draws—you know, so they're backed up.

Jay


markc


Mar 17, 2012, 8:28 PM
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Re: [healyje] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
markc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.

I normally respect your opinion, but that kind of logic would keep my kid in velcro shoes for the rest of his life.

And how long did he climb with you before you cut him loose to figure out things on his own?

Well, he's still in velcro shoes and I still tie him in when he climbs. He's only 5.

My point was that Gabe's post made it sound like having to ask the question is a bad thing. Waiting until you're mid-pitch, as happened in his story, is scary as hell. In that case, defusing the situation and having the guy lower off a draw sounds like the best alternative. Having someone ask in advance so he's not going off half-cocked and trying to figure things out on his own is good.

When you're discussing leading and cleaning anchors with someone, that's the time to go over strategies for bailing. I think swapping out a biner for a draw is pretty straight-forward, and can be demonstrated with little risk. It's not some convoluted practice like the Texas rope trick, which I wouldn't generally show to someone just learning to lead. That said, people need to make their own evaluation and leave what they're comfortable with.


Partner cracklover


Mar 19, 2012, 7:58 AM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
healyje wrote:
markc wrote:
cracklover wrote:
If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.

I normally respect your opinion, but that kind of logic would keep my kid in velcro shoes for the rest of his life.

And how long did he climb with you before you cut him loose to figure out things on his own?

Well, he's still in velcro shoes and I still tie him in when he climbs. He's only 5.

My point was that Gabe's post made it sound like having to ask the question is a bad thing. Waiting until you're mid-pitch, as happened in his story, is scary as hell. In that case, defusing the situation and having the guy lower off a draw sounds like the best alternative. Having someone ask in advance so he's not going off half-cocked and trying to figure things out on his own is good.

When you're discussing leading and cleaning anchors with someone, that's the time to go over strategies for bailing. I think swapping out a biner for a draw is pretty straight-forward, and can be demonstrated with little risk. It's not some convoluted practice like the Texas rope trick, which I wouldn't generally show to someone just learning to lead. That said, people need to make their own evaluation and leave what they're comfortable with.

Well, I do agree with the masses that for a competent climber, biner or draw - it makes no difference. If you can clip one to a bolt, you can clip the other. But if you can't figure out how to switch from one to the other (I'm not saying this is the case for the OP - I'm just speaking hypothetically), then there are issues going on that make it impossible to get that across over the internet.

Essentially, I think trying to give advice over a message board is about as likely to be successful as giving it to a climber mid-climb. Which is to say - depending on the abilities of the two parties (the one on the ground and the one on the rock, or the one asking online and the one answering) it could work out great, or be a disaster.

There's nothing wrong with asking, but without knowing the competency of the person on the other end in this situation, and only having the data of what he's asked here, my default position is to give the most conservative answer.

When your son is ready to learn to tie his own shoes, I trust you will sit down with him, and help walk him through all the options. Here's a good place to start: http://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/tying.htm

GTongue


markc


Mar 20, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Thanks for the discussion and the link. I may well learn something new myself!


jorgegonzalez


Mar 20, 2012, 1:55 PM
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Re: [markc] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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I am surprised no one has counseled the OP that if he is that green, he should stick to climbs within his limit, get better on them, and after he gets enough experience and knowledge that he doesn't need to pose these basic questions on RC, he can move up to more challenging climbs., and maybe, get himself into a predicament he now is able to extricate himself from without hurting himself or endangering others.


ceebo


Mar 20, 2012, 4:00 PM
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jorgegonzalez wrote:
I am surprised no one has counseled the OP that if he is that green, he should stick to climbs within his limit, get better on them, and after he gets enough experience and knowledge that he doesn't need to pose these basic questions on RC, he can move up to more challenging climbs., and maybe, get himself into a predicament he now is able to extricate himself from without hurting himself or endangering others.

Why would you put somebody down who is trying to learn?, maybe becuase you were to buisy flexing pro ethics to realise it?. He opend with ''lets say i''.. as opposed to ''the other day i got stuck on the wall yall''.

And how do you go about learning basic knowledge withought asking basic questions?.

Kinde sure indoor inductions (at least in the uk) do not cover how to bail a sport route. This is more a failure on the ''professionals'' than the noobs, don't you think?.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Mar 20, 2012, 4:07 PM)


jorgegonzalez


Mar 20, 2012, 8:24 PM
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Re: [ceebo] Not reaching anchor on lead climb [In reply to]
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I am not putting him down, I am counseling that people should not try to take on climbs that are too hard for themselves because it can have disastrous consequences.

Sport climbers often push themselves to do hard climbs when they are not ready, they call it "gradeism" or "chasing the numbers." The problem is not that one tries to get better, its that they try climbs that are too hard for themselves because they are cowing to peer pressure. That in and of itself can be dangerous.

I'm not trying to be a blowhard, my best years are behind me. Instead, I feel it is important to make sure younger, less experienced climbers develop as well rounded, safe climbers. to do that, one has to put in the mileage and not bite off more than they can chew.


JimTitt


Mar 21, 2012, 1:01 AM
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ceebo wrote:
jorgegonzalez wrote:
I am surprised no one has counseled the OP that if he is that green, he should stick to climbs within his limit, get better on them, and after he gets enough experience and knowledge that he doesn't need to pose these basic questions on RC, he can move up to more challenging climbs., and maybe, get himself into a predicament he now is able to extricate himself from without hurting himself or endangering others.

Why would you put somebody down who is trying to learn?, maybe becuase you were to buisy flexing pro ethics to realise it?. He opend with ''lets say i''.. as opposed to ''the other day i got stuck on the wall yall''.

And how do you go about learning basic knowledge withought asking basic questions?.

Kinde sure indoor inductions (at least in the uk) do not cover how to bail a sport route. This is more a failure on the ''professionals'' than the noobs, don't you think?.

You are correct for the UK, this is a suprising omission in in the syllabus in some ways but may reflect that in an indoor situation the need to bail off a route is unlikely, or at least retrieving a draw relatively painless.
For outdoor leading instruction the syllabus doesn´t ever mention sport climbing and is trad based so somewhere in between our sport noob is left in ignorance!


smr21


Mar 21, 2012, 3:20 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
There are very few bolts you can put your rope through without destroying it. You can do it with glue-ins for exanple, but the edges on a regular hanger are just too sharp.

It sounds as though you are saying it is OK to lower directly off a glue in. Please tell me you don't believe this.
That will do nothing but wear out the bolt, eventually making it unsafe to use. I'm sure you've been climbing long enough to witness the effect that repeated lowerings off of anchors has on the hardware.
Once a glue in has been worn down, it will need to be replaced. It is much more work intensive to replace a glue in than a conventional expansion bolt.

Do Not Lower Directly Off A Glue In Bolt! Use a bail biner.


granite_grrl


Mar 21, 2012, 4:37 AM
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smr21 wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
There are very few bolts you can put your rope through without destroying it. You can do it with glue-ins for exanple, but the edges on a regular hanger are just too sharp.

It sounds as though you are saying it is OK to lower directly off a glue in. Please tell me you don't believe this.
That will do nothing but wear out the bolt, eventually making it unsafe to use. I'm sure you've been climbing long enough to witness the effect that repeated lowerings off of anchors has on the hardware.
Once a glue in has been worn down, it will need to be replaced. It is much more work intensive to replace a glue in than a conventional expansion bolt.

Do Not Lower Directly Off A Glue In Bolt! Use a bail biner.

While I admit that what I wrote is a little ambiguous I never said anything about LOWERING. If someone decided they needed to bail on a glue in I would hope and expect they would rap.


ceebo


Mar 21, 2012, 8:08 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jorgegonzalez wrote:
I am surprised no one has counseled the OP that if he is that green, he should stick to climbs within his limit, get better on them, and after he gets enough experience and knowledge that he doesn't need to pose these basic questions on RC, he can move up to more challenging climbs., and maybe, get himself into a predicament he now is able to extricate himself from without hurting himself or endangering others.

Why would you put somebody down who is trying to learn?, maybe becuase you were to buisy flexing pro ethics to realise it?. He opend with ''lets say i''.. as opposed to ''the other day i got stuck on the wall yall''.

And how do you go about learning basic knowledge withought asking basic questions?.

Kinde sure indoor inductions (at least in the uk) do not cover how to bail a sport route. This is more a failure on the ''professionals'' than the noobs, don't you think?.

You are correct for the UK, this is a suprising omission in in the syllabus in some ways but may reflect that in an indoor situation the need to bail off a route is unlikely, or at least retrieving a draw relatively painless.
For outdoor leading instruction the syllabus doesn´t ever mention sport climbing and is trad based so somewhere in between our sport noob is left in ignorance!

Maybe a result of how inherently, stubern, conservitave and old fashioned in style the uk climbing culture is?. The leader should never fall anyay, right? Unsure.

On the bigger picture, the lack of bolted routes in our country ontop of the rediculess trad ethics probably explains why the avg ability of a uk climber is horendesly low. That could be a reflcetion of how hard it would be to push into pro level climbing in this country. Thos who did do it.. lived next door to the few hot spots we do have (or made them hot spots). But even those climbers on the grand scale.. they are still leap years away from the level of climbers that are coming out of America, France, Spain and so on.

Dunno why i posted that, felt like talking.


bearbreeder


Mar 21, 2012, 9:17 AM
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one thing to note is that "harder" climbs can be "safer" than easier climbs if they are more overhanging or have less protruding features

IMO the OP should get someone to show him how to do it in person, and not off the intrawebs ....


JimTitt


Mar 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
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ceebo wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
ceebo wrote:
jorgegonzalez wrote:
I am surprised no one has counseled the OP that if he is that green, he should stick to climbs within his limit, get better on them, and after he gets enough experience and knowledge that he doesn't need to pose these basic questions on RC, he can move up to more challenging climbs., and maybe, get himself into a predicament he now is able to extricate himself from without hurting himself or endangering others.

Why would you put somebody down who is trying to learn?, maybe becuase you were to buisy flexing pro ethics to realise it?. He opend with ''lets say i''.. as opposed to ''the other day i got stuck on the wall yall''.

And how do you go about learning basic knowledge withought asking basic questions?.

Kinde sure indoor inductions (at least in the uk) do not cover how to bail a sport route. This is more a failure on the ''professionals'' than the noobs, don't you think?.

You are correct for the UK, this is a suprising omission in in the syllabus in some ways but may reflect that in an indoor situation the need to bail off a route is unlikely, or at least retrieving a draw relatively painless.
For outdoor leading instruction the syllabus doesn´t ever mention sport climbing and is trad based so somewhere in between our sport noob is left in ignorance!

Maybe a result of how inherently, stubern, conservitave and old fashioned in style the uk climbing culture is?. The leader should never fall anyay, right? Unsure.

On the bigger picture, the lack of bolted routes in our country ontop of the rediculess trad ethics probably explains why the avg ability of a uk climber is horendesly low. That could be a reflcetion of how hard it would be to push into pro level climbing in this country. Thos who did do it.. lived next door to the few hot spots we do have (or made them hot spots). But even those climbers on the grand scale.. they are still leap years away from the level of climbers that are coming out of America, France, Spain and so on.

Dunno why i posted that, felt like talking.

I was thinking much the same as I wrote, the ethic is still get to the summit in good style not do the moves. Even though I haven´t lived in the UK for 25 years I still only really the onsight and failure is failure, not working the route! Living in the Frankenjura this is a slight handicap since everybodies dog appears to be able to climb better than me but I just like walking up to a route, climbing it and then a beer or three!

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Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Sport Climbing

 


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